- 5 days ago
A debate on India Today show India First, hosted by Gaurav Sawant, analyses the legal and political fallout following violent protest clashes in Delhi.
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00:17Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Sarban. Breaking news coming in on India First.
00:22The Kokru Janata Party has threatened to relaunch its agitation. They have warned that they will resume their nationwide protests
00:32to protect the students and the protesters.
00:36The Kokru Janata Party in a statement has said this in response to the Supreme Court interim order earlier today.
00:44The Chief Justice of India-led bench, they said that FIRs will stay.
00:51They of course said there would be no coercive action that will be taken against students.
00:56However, let me take you through what the CJP spokesperson Saurav Das has just put out on social media on
01:04this issue.
01:04The Kokru Janata Party says the interim order passed by the Supreme Court must ring alarm bells across the country,
01:13in particular, Direction No. 4.
01:17Direction No. 4 permits the government to proceed with existing FIRs and carry out investigations.
01:25According to the Kokru Janata Party, this raises extremely serious concerns.
01:29This direction stands in direct contradiction to the solemn assurance and guarantees extended by the government to the youth of
01:39this nation on the 25th of July, 2026.
01:42According to the Kokru Janata Party, that FIRs would be withdrawn and that no protester would be directly or indirectly
01:51targeted for participating in the peaceful movement.
01:55Now, the Kokru Janata Party in the statement goes on to say that we now have a credible apprehension that
02:05the government of India and BJP-ruled states may seek to use and weaponize this order of the bench led
02:14by Chief Justice of India, Surikant, to continue with the FIRs against individual protesters and subject them to great harassment.
02:23And this was precisely our concern from day one, that courts could be used directly or indirectly to achieve political
02:33ends by targeting what the Kokru Janata Party describes as peaceful dissent.
02:41Equally troubling is the fact that the interim order was not opposed by the government's lawyers, despite the central government
02:50being fully aware that talks slash assurances with the CJP had continued until as recently as late last night and
03:01that a solemn agreement had been already arrived at on the 25th of July.
03:07Okay, the court's uninformed order, the Kokru Janata Party says, the court's uninformed order is therefore wholly unacceptable.
03:22A Supreme Court order is unacceptable to the Kokru Janata Party.
03:28Listen in to Shorabdas before I get you more on this story.
03:33The Supreme Court is doing something in the U.S. in the U.S. in the U.S. in the
03:38U.S. in the U.S.
03:38So we welcome the orders and judgments to the U.S. in the U.S.
03:43But the Supreme Court is doing what they are doing in their own way, according to their ideas.
03:50We were doing a lot of time on the U.S. in the U.S. in the U.S. in
03:57the U.S. in the U.S.
04:00So we have to understand that our demand has been guaranteed in the U.S. in the U.S.
04:14In the U.S. in the U.S. in the U.S. in the U.S.
04:25and subsequently very closely.
04:27Amit, what does the CJP warning or apprehension or threat of resuming protest indicate?
04:36Because this comes at a time when initially the Assam government, then Bihar government and now Maharashtra government,
04:44they've already announced withdrawal of FIRs.
04:49Gaurav, the CJP fears or they are concerned that this particular Supreme Court order could be actually used by the
04:58state,
04:58more so by the Bharatiya Janta Party or the NDA rule states to carry on and go ahead with the
05:04legal cases that have been filed against
05:06or charges that have been pressed against the student protesters during the July 28th and the following protest.
05:12And I did speak to the leadership within the CJP. They are saying that, you know, the handing over of
05:18the FIRs
05:19and the detail of the legal action against the protesters was supposed to end or to their core team was
05:25supposed to be done by today.
05:27That has not happened. There is apparent delay on part of the officers in handing that out the list of
05:35FIRs
05:35and this could be actually used as an excuse that the matter is subjurism.
05:40That is why the CJP is suggesting that they could, if this particular issue is not resolved,
05:45they could go on to start another agitation because they do not want the protesters who believed and had faith
05:51in the CJP leadership
05:52and the government's understanding with the CJP as well, they don't want these protesters to suffer.
05:59And that is why this step is being taken and a statement of this sort is being given.
06:06Is there a change in stance, Amit? Amit, is there a change in stance?
06:10Because earlier it was very clear that there would be no coercive action taken against peaceful protesters.
06:17But those who were in violation of the law of the land or those with criminal antecedents, those who were
06:24targeting security forces,
06:26are the CJP representatives demanding withdrawal of FIR even against them?
06:35Gaurav, they have not distinguished this or that.
06:38They are saying that the FIRs against the protesters should be withdrawn.
06:42The government had agreed to it. There was an understanding between the CJP and the government representatives.
06:46And there is no reason to backtrack on it. That's what CJP is saying.
06:50And if you go by, you know, the logic of it, there have been several instances in the past as
06:54well,
06:55where such legal cases have been completely dropped, withdrawn, of several agitations in India's history.
07:01And that's what CJP is also pointing out at.
07:04That if the government has already reason, understanding with the protesters,
07:07why use any Supreme Court order to, you know, to say that this particular issue is subjurious?
07:14And that is why this problem might just prop up.
07:18However, if states after states keep on, you know, releasing those orders as the Home Department of Bihar did last
07:25night,
07:26possibly we could reach a situation where this confrontation can get over.
07:30But there's a bigger fear, more so specifically for Delhi protests, where we saw, you know, a lot of students,
07:38a lot of protesters and people from the civil society coming up.
07:41So they believe that this particular Supreme Court order should not be used, interim order rather,
07:46should not be used as an excuse to, you know, declare it as subjurious.
07:51Okay.
07:51And hence, use it as an excuse for Delhi police to carry forward their legal action.
07:57Back to you.
07:57Keep tracking that story, Amit.
07:59I will come back to you for more.
08:00For the moment, Amit Bharatwaj in Delhi.
08:02Many thanks.
08:03The Supreme Court today stepped in to draw that line between the right to protest and the rule of law.
08:10The Supreme Court called for an independent, fair, transparent, scientific and evidence-based inquiry,
08:18both into excesses by the police or alleged excesses by the police and alleged excesses against the security forces during
08:28the student protest.
08:30After Assam in Bihar, even the Maharashtra government incidentally has withdrawn cases against students.
08:37The Supreme Court stayed coercive action against peaceful protestors across the country and directed the release of detained students.
08:46But those with no criminal background.
08:51The Supreme Court has made one thing equally clear.
08:55There will be no blanket immunity.
08:57And this means protection will not extend to those with criminal antecedents.
09:05Those who are seen on camera targeting security forces.
09:10States have been permitted to register FIR on incidents of violence.
09:15The court directed the government to ensure personal data of protestors is not made public.
09:20The Supreme Court order comes even as one of the biggest controversies surrounding the July 20 crackdown in Delhi escalates.
09:27For eight days, police maintained that claims of the use of pellet guns against protestors were false and misleading.
09:35But India today has now accessed an official police record that confirms the use of anti-right guns firing non
09:46-lethal plastic pellets during the protest crackdown.
09:50The document in question is actually a GD entry or a general diary entry recorded at the Parliament Street Police
09:58Station on the 22nd of July based on information provided by a deputy commandant of the Rapid Action Force, the
10:06RAF.
10:07Now, according to the diary, RAF personnel who were deployed in Zone 1 of the Jantar Mantar protest area, along
10:16with the Deputy Commissioner of Delhi Police, during the July 20th Sansat Chalo march, the entry states that on the
10:24directions of the police,
10:25RAF personnel fired 55 non-electrical shells, 15 electrical shells, 5 tear smoke grenades, 2 rounds from the anti-right
10:41gun and 2 rounds of the non-lethal plastic pellets while attempting to control the crowd.
10:49Officials say that these are plastic pellets, not metal pellets, and that each round contains four plastic projectiles designed for
10:59crowd control as sanctioned by law, according to the police.
11:04They maintain that these are categorized as less lethal munition and are different from conventional metal pellets that penetrate the
11:12body.
11:12At the same time, Delhi Police has defended its action, claiming facial recognition analysis identified 2,873 people with criminal
11:22antecedents at the protest site, including over 100 linked to very serious offenses, including being accused in murder, attempt to
11:32murder, rape and molestation cases.
11:35The Delhi Police insist, force was used only after repeated warnings were issued, multiple barricades were breached and personnel were
11:46attacked.
11:46I get you more in this report.
11:54For days, the Delhi Police vehemently denied the use of pellet guns during the crackdown on protests against Neat Paper
12:01League on July 20th.
12:03After tracking down multiple victims of pellet gun firing, India today has now accessed documents that bust the police claims.
12:11An official general diary entry of the Rapid Action Force is now at the heart of the pellet gun controversy.
12:19The diary reveals that Rapid Action Force personnel fired anti-riot guns twice on the directions of a Delhi Police
12:26DCP during the CJP-led parliament march.
12:29The same entry records the use of 55 non-electric shells, 15 electric shells, 5-tier smoke grenades and 2
12:37rounds from anti-riot guns loaded with plastic pellets.
12:41An anti-riot gun is not a conventional pellet gun, but it is a less lethal crowd-controlled weapon capable
12:48of firing plastic pellet cartridges that disperse into multiple projectiles on impact.
12:54Although classified as less lethal, anti-riot guns can still cause serious injuries, especially if fired at close range or
13:01if pellets strike sensitive areas like the eyes or head.
13:05That's why their use is governed by strict crowd-control protocols.
13:11The revelation comes even as the police are yet to admit the use of pellet guns.
13:17Delhi Police had maintained that no pellet guns were used during the July 20 protests and had described reports of
13:24pellet gun use as false.
13:25But the diary records that anti-riot guns were used on July 20 and that Rapid Action Force personnel fired
13:32anti-riot guns twice during the crowd-control operation at Jantar Mantar.
13:38Even though several protesters reported pellet injuries, one of them, 19-year-old Sahil Lochab, suffered devastating injuries and risks
13:47losing vision in one eye.
13:48Former IPS officer Yashuwardhan Jha Azad and two victims have moved to Supreme Court, seeking a ban on the use
13:56of pellet guns on civilian protesters.
13:58Meanwhile, the investigation has widened.
14:02Delhi Police say facial recognition analysis of CCTV footage has identified 2,873 people with criminal backgrounds, including 989 with
14:13serious criminal records, who infiltrated the protests.
14:16The list includes 101 accused in murder cases, 62 accused in attempt-to-murder cases, 284 accused in dacoity and
14:25robbery cases, 61 accused in rape cases, 6 accused under the POXO Act, 25 accused in molestation cases, 229 accused
14:35under the Arms Act and 67 accused in NDPS cases.
14:40Meanwhile, the Supreme Court on Tuesday ordered no coercive action should be taken against protesters, but made it clear that
14:47the protection would not extend to those with criminal records.
14:51The questions are mounting.
14:53If anti-riot guns firing plastic pellets were used, why was it denied?
14:58As the Rapid Action Force probes its own actions, the spotlight is now firmly on Delhi Police.
15:04With Arvind Ojha in Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
15:34With injuries caused prime of SI, there appeared to be pellet gun injuries.
15:4024 hours later, on the 21st of July, Delhi Police denied allegations of the use of pellet guns.
15:46Now, responding to claims made by the Kokruch Janata Party, Police described reports of pellet gun uses completely false and
15:54misleading.
15:55However, on the 23rd of July, doctors at Delhi's Savdarjung Hospital documented a journalist injured while covering the protest suffered
16:0426 small round wounds that appeared to be consistent with pellets striking his body.
16:12Then the very next day, 24th of July, the issue exploded politically.
16:17Leader of Opposition in Lok Sabha, in Parliament, Rahul Gandhi, accused the government of misleading the country on the alleged
16:24use of pellet guns.
16:25The same day, RAF, the Rapid Action Force, initiated an internal inquiry, internal verification process into allegations that one of
16:33their personnel had apparently or allegedly used disproportionate force during these protests.
16:41Again, on the 24th of July, India Today accessed medical records and documented injuries that pointed to a use of
16:49pellet guns during the crackdown.
16:52The matter reached the Supreme Court.
16:54On the 27th of July, former Intelligence Bureau Special Director, Yashowardhan Azad, approached the EPICS Court seeking a ban on
17:02the use of pellet guns for crowd control,
17:04arguing that despite being classified as less lethal weapons, they can cause serious, at times, permanent injuries.
17:13And today, the controversy has taken a fresh start.
17:16India Today has accessed a GD entry, a general diary entry at the Parliament Street Police Station.
17:23The entry records that RAF fired two rounds from an anti-right gun on the directions of the Delhi Police
17:30during the July 20 clashes.
17:33Now, the pellet gun controversy is not new.
17:38In 2016, for example, there was a huge controversy around the use of pellet guns, which incidentally had been introduced
17:45as non-lethal right control weapons post the 2010 Kashmir stone pelting violence.
17:51The Union Ministry of Home Affairs then constituted a seven-member committee, an expert panel headed by TVS and Prasad
17:59on the use of non-lethal weapons like the pellet guns.
18:04The committee recommended that pellet guns should be used only in the rarest of rare cases of crowd control.
18:12Use of other non-lethal weapons for crowd control, like chilly grenades, was recommended.
18:20Also, the use of power shells and other non-lethal ammunition like stun guns or stun-lax cells, that was
18:26recommended.
18:26The use of long-range acoustic device or LARD.
18:31Now, an acoustic device is mounted on an automobile and has a very, very huge penetrating sound, which creates a
18:40deafening noise and it stuns protesters, though very briefly.
18:44It was used in Jammu and Kashmir, especially in Kashmir Valley, but not very successfully.
18:50Tear gas shells, the recommendation was that they should not be metal ball bearings, but they should be made of
18:56plastic so that even if it's fired, it does not penetrate the body.
19:02It does not cause permanent damage.
19:04It just dissuades an individual from being in a restricted area.
19:09Also, the stun guns that are grenades that are fired or the canisters that are fired should be made of
19:15plastic and not metal so that they cannot be picked up once again and hurled back.
19:21Also, the change of gas and tear gas shells to make it more effective.
19:25Chilly grenades could be used.
19:27There are very clear rules of engagement and I want to bring you those rules of engagement.
19:33According to the Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sahita or the BNSS 2023, under section 148 of the BNSS, an executive magistrate
19:46or the officer in charge of a police station or in their absence,
19:49a police officer not below the rank of a sub-inspector may command an unlawful assembly or an assembly of
19:57five or more persons likely to cause disturbance of public peace to disperse from an area.
20:03If the assembly does not disperse, the officer may disperse that assembly by use of force if necessary, arrest and
20:11confine those forming part of that gathering.
20:13Then there is section 149 that permits the district magistrate or an authorized executive magistrate or equivalent to seek the
20:22assistance of armed personnel where the assembly cannot otherwise be dispersed and it is necessary for public security to disperse
20:31them.
20:32The law further requires that armed forces use as little force and do as little injury to a person or
20:41property as may be consistent with dispersing the assembly.
20:47The question we ask here on India first, were the rules of engagement followed in Delhi and in Bihar?
20:55Did the police have no alternative but to use the pellet gun in Delhi or bring out an assault rifle,
21:03an AK-47 in Bihar?
21:04Or was this a very clear case of excessive use of force?
21:09Joining me on India first, Vikram Singh, former Director General of Police and a security expert.
21:14Jay Anand Dehadra is an advocate of the Supreme Court.
21:17Adal Singh, Boparai, national spokesperson of the Congress Party.
21:20And Tuhin Sinha represents the Bharatiya Janta Party.
21:23And I want to begin by asking Dr. Vikram Singh, as somebody who's handled crowd control, riots, riot-like situation,
21:32protests,
21:33Mr. Vikram Singh, was the use of pellet guns justified or unjustified?
21:38Was it excessive use of force in Delhi, in your appreciation?
21:43Good evening, Gaurabji and gentlemen.
21:44You, in your opening remarks, have very recently explained the various provisions of the BNSS sections 148 to 151 and
21:53also the basic philosophy.
22:00Sir, give me a moment as we re-establish that link with you.
22:03Tuhin Sinha, the Supreme Court today observed, it was completely a peaceful protest by students raising demands.
22:10Such a protest is permissible and protected under the Constitution.
22:15Sir, does this observation demolish the grounds for use of pellet guns in Delhi and an assault rifle in Bihar?
22:24Well, good evening, Gaurabh, good evening, everybody.
22:26You know, the Honourable Supreme Court has also highlighted, you know, that 2,900 people with criminal antecedents were a
22:34part of the student protests.
22:37Now, you know, the Parliament debate is going on, and I was very carefully listening to the opposition speakers.
22:42There are at least half a dozen of them who have spoken till now.
22:44Not one of them has condemned the participation of 100 people facing murder charges in the protests.
22:52You know, so that's the reality of this opposition.
22:55Now, did we not allow the peaceful protests?
22:57Of course, the peaceful protests went on for a good one month, more than a month.
23:01You know, in fact, all those people who have been accusing Modiji of being a Hitler and whatnot
23:06should basically, you know, be honest today in admitting that for more than a month, these protests had gone on
23:14very peacefully.
23:16Problems started last Monday when they tried to barge into Parliament, you know, when the Parliament was in session.
23:22And then, you know, the 46-year-old youth leader tried to hijack the movement.
23:26But having said that, you know, I still believe, I still believe in the two important questions which you have
23:33asked regarding Siobhan prompt action was taken.
23:36In fact, the constable who has used AK-47 was suspended.
23:42An investigation is underway.
23:44And at the same time, it has been categorically explained that not a single person has been injured due to,
23:51due to AK-47 usage.
23:53Now, when it comes to Delhi, you know, again, I'm sure the investigation is underway.
23:58Mr. Singh will explain the technicalities of the usage of pellet gun.
24:03But I think, you know, one also needs to be a little pragmatic over here.
24:07The term should be unprovoked violence from either side.
24:11Because we have seen journalists getting beaten up.
24:14We have seen R.A.S. being dragged and, you know, pushed and beaten up.
24:19Let me get Adil Singh Boparai to respond to that.
24:22Adil Singh Boparai, more than 200 policemen have also been injured.
24:26Police reports that Tuhin Singh also speaks of, speak of more than 2,700 individuals with criminal antecedents in the
24:34crowd, public and private property was vandalized.
24:37The BJP accuses the Congress, sir, of giving cover fire to vandals and arsonists.
24:45Why is Mr. Modi treating the youth of this country like terrorists?
24:51I think that is the moot point.
24:53Why is he treating them like enemies of the state?
24:57I can't recall any democratic country using pellet guns on its youth, using electric batons, using lathis studded with nails,
25:10using rubber bullets.
25:13Young persons have lost their lives.
25:16They're grievously injured.
25:18Whom is the BJP trying to fool?
25:21And look at the arrogance of the BJP spokesperson.
25:24One would have imagined that after that, after the fact that they've had to eat humble pie, they would show
25:30some degree of restraint.
25:33But look at the arrogance of the BJP spokesperson.
25:38They unabashedly continue with their lies.
25:41I have the Supreme Court order before me.
25:43Where is the Chief Justice of India said that 200 people with murder charges?
25:48What kind of utter gibberish is the BJP talking?
25:52It's time that their Vostap propaganda ceases.
25:56India has changed.
25:58The youth have realized.
26:00The BJP for the past 12 years, using their propaganda tools, have sowed the seeds of discord in this society.
26:09But finally, India has woken up.
26:11Point number one.
26:12Point number two.
26:14If the Home Minister doesn't come out and clarify, then as an ordinary citizen, perhaps it is safe to presume
26:23that all this had his approval.
26:27Fair enough.
26:28Let me get Jayana and Dehadra.
26:29Home Minister.
26:30Okay.
26:31Fair enough.
26:32Let's take this point by point.
26:34No blanket immunity for stone pelters, vandals, arsonists in that Supreme Court order.
26:41But is this, you know, you heard both the Congress side, you heard the BJP spokesperson.
26:47We could only partially hear Dr. Vikram Singh and I'll come back to him.
26:50But can protesters take the plea that some targeted the police, when targeted, and you just heard the Kaukrat Janata
26:58Party say withdraw all FIRs against all protesters or the protests start again?
27:04Gaurav, good evening.
27:06With all due respect to my fellow member at the bar, I disagree with him quite vehemently.
27:11I stand staunchly with the Delhi police.
27:15Look at their predicament, Gaurav.
27:17They are, you know, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
27:20You had about 75,000 unpredictable individuals.
27:24This was a very large gathering in the most sensitive part of Delhi, out of which you rightly pointed out
27:31that there were about 2,800 individuals with very serious criminal antecedents in their midst.
27:36The entire protest, we keep saying peaceful protest, peaceful protest, but the fact is, of course, all of us support
27:43a peaceful protest and dissent.
27:44It is a constitutionally protected right.
27:46But what happened in the last few days of that protest was for all of us to see there was
27:52massive stone pelting against members of the, you know, members of the police and, you know, the security apparatus.
27:59There was stone pelting.
28:02I mean, there was stone pelting.
28:03You had visuals of policemen grievously injured and that entire situation was like a tinderbox, Gaurav.
28:09It could have turned into a major riot.
28:11And then, you know, God alone knows how many people would have perhaps perished in the ensuing stampede that could
28:17have taken place and much worse could have happened.
28:19And let's not forget, this is in the heart of Delhi, where parliament was only a stone's throw away.
28:23So now, what is the Delhi police faced with?
28:25You have this marauding mob.
28:27Now, there is no way, Gaurav, to identify when there is a marauding mob with masks and other things to
28:32identify, all right, this person could have serious criminal antecedents.
28:36Now, this person could be a student.
28:38When passions run high, you have to take steps to control the aggression of the crowd.
28:43And what did the Delhi police do?
28:44They did it in a graduated, they escalated it in a gradual manner.
28:49First, you had barricades, they broke through the barricades.
28:52Thereafter, you had a lathe charge, it didn't deter them.
28:55Then you threw, you know, tear gas, that didn't deter them.
28:59Then finally, you used non-lethal methods to disperse the crowd.
29:03So, this is extremely unfair.
29:05I just want to say one last thing, Gaurav.
29:07It is very easy for myself included, you know, for all of us to sit in an air-conditioned room
29:12and to pontificate
29:13and to advise the Delhi police as to what they should ideally have done when the situation was going out
29:18of hand.
29:19Suppose it would have gone out of hand and there were instances of arson, police vans being burnt.
29:25All of Knot Place would have been set on fire.
29:27Then what would have happened?
29:28Then we would have abused the Delhi police and said,
29:30you people are completely incompetent, you should have controlled the crowd.
29:33So, this is very convenient.
29:35I'll get Mr. Goparai to respond to this.
29:37One last, just one last thing.
29:38I'll come back to you with your permission.
29:39I will come back to you.
29:40I want to bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
29:41On Supreme Court, I just wanted to say on the Honorable Supreme Court because Adil said something very interesting.
29:46He said, look, there is a Supreme Court order now.
29:48I just want to clarify this for your audience.
29:50The Honorable Supreme Court, Gaurav, has said nothing out of the ordinary.
29:54They have upheld the law.
29:55They have not said there will be amnesty for anybody who has committed a crime.
29:58So, whether you are a protester, student, etc., it doesn't matter.
30:00If there is evidence available, videography is available to show that you have resorted to violence,
30:06broken things, stolen things, set things on fire, attacked policemen, you will be charged.
30:11And that is the right thing the Honorable Supreme Court has done.
30:14Fair enough.
30:14But Adil Singh Goparai, is there merit in the criticism that the Congress to target the government
30:22is giving cover fire even to those who vandalized police vehicles, vandalized buses,
30:28public and private property, whether in Delhi or in Bihar or elsewhere, sir?
30:34Gaurav, I don't think even the BJP is trying to defend or justify the use of pellet guns.
30:40I don't think any person, even the staunched supporter of the BJP will justify using pellet guns
30:46on young boys and girls.
30:49One of them was a 32-year-old executive.
30:51Some of them were students.
30:53One was a 25-year-old MBA graduate.
30:56So I don't think, let's get this out of our way, the use of force was disproportionate.
31:02The Delhi police and, in fact, the petitioners before the Supreme Court, and this is what
31:07the Supreme Court has said, has made out a compelling case of police excesses.
31:12The point is not that.
31:14The point today is on political accountability for the use of this disproportionate force.
31:20Now, coming to my moot point, is it that the Home Minister authorized the use of pellet guns?
31:28Is it that the Home Minister authorized the use of rubber bullets?
31:32Is it the Home Minister who authorized the use of lattes studded with nails?
31:37I think this is where the BJP government has to come out and clarify.
31:41Please understand, the government and their supporters, and I say this respectfully,
31:49the government and their supporters cannot take the refuge of national security to ride
31:55roughshod over constitutional rights or to individuals or the youth seeking to express
32:01their dissent.
32:02This is not how democracy works.
32:05Sir, dissent and vandalism are two separate things, sir.
32:08Dissent and vandalism.
32:10But let me bring in, let me bring in Tuhin Sina, because the use, the use of, of nails
32:16in, in sticks, disproportionate use of force, does anything justify the use of a pellet gun
32:22here or that assault rifle in Bihar, Tuhin Sina?
32:26Since, you know, the Congress spokesperson was waxing eloquent about our arrogance, let
32:33me tell you, tell him what arrogance is.
32:35Arrogance is calling the IIT director, we, Kamakoti, as Gaumutra expert, and that borders
32:40on toxicity and perversion.
32:43Now, when it comes to use of pellet guns, I have already made my point clear.
32:47You know, let us, in the time we have a final report, let us refer to it unprovoked violence
32:54from either side should be condemned.
32:56Do we know the circumstances under which it was used?
32:59We don't know as of now.
33:00For all you know, it, it was meant, it was kept on standby for the hundred odd criminals
33:06who we had intelligence, you know, had entered the protest.
33:09Now, I would expect one word of condemnation, one word of concern from this entire opposition.
33:15Are they not concerned that an entire student, you know, student protest had been, you know,
33:20had 100 plus murderers, you know, people facing murder charges, 2,900 people of criminal
33:27antecedents.
33:28Now, if you don't agree with the Delhi police report, you file a case against Delhi.
33:32Let me bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
33:34Let me bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
33:3630 seconds.
33:3630 seconds.
33:40Before I bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
33:44I don't want to lose that link to him, but go on.
33:45Go on, Adil.
33:46Gaurav, Gaurav, I've been on your debate for the past at least seven years.
33:49And I think this country is fed up with the BJP using this argument that any person who
33:56dissents is an anti-national or an anti-social element.
33:59They use it with the farmers.
34:01They're using it with the youth.
34:02This is the BJP standard operating procedure.
34:06They're modus.
34:07You cannot barricade accountability.
34:10This is accountability of your acts of omission and commission.
34:14And you can continue with your arrogance because this is going to be your call.
34:19Gaurav, let me simplify it over here in 10 seconds.
34:24No, people who oppose us are not anti-nationals, but those who silently condone the participation
34:30of criminals are, you know, are somewhere aligning with anti-nationals.
34:34And I think, you know, the Congress party needs to take a stand.
34:36If he doesn't agree with Delhi police report, you find a case against Delhi police.
34:40You have a problem with all law-enforcing agencies today.
34:44You are a fringe group who has a problem with all law-enforcing agencies in the country today.
34:50Let me bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
34:53Let me bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
34:54Dr. Vikram Singh, when you look at those images, of course, we're still waiting for an
34:58official version, one of the Delhi police, two of the Rapid Action Force, and the inquiry.
35:04Anything justifies the use of pellet guns, sir?
35:07Gaurav ji and distinguished gentlemen, all of you are so experienced in the rules, criminal
35:12procedure code, and all matters relating to the use of force.
35:16I would say that in your opening remarks, Gaurav ji, you recently explained sections 148
35:20to 151 of the BNSS that explains the use of force.
35:24And the gist of all the Supreme Court rulings and the High Courts is minimum use of force,
35:30non-lethal alternatives, and or non-vital parts.
35:33I would salute the forbearance and the tolerance of the police.
35:36When was the last time did you see 150 odd police personnel, including the elderly and
35:41the women police officers, being bashed up in such a brutal manner?
35:4630 police vehicles being torched.
35:48And yet, the ultimate escalation is, first, it is the water cannon, then it is the tear
35:54gas, and then it is lathi charge, and the fourth is the pellet gun.
35:58And then it is the rubber bullet, and then it is the solid bullet.
36:02I will come stage by stage, but I will just take 30 seconds to say why pellet gun, it was
36:06ordered by a DCP.
36:08But what is not acceptable is that please don't try to conceal facts.
36:12You took 48 hours to disclose that it was the DCP who ordered.
36:16It was the two rounds that you fired.
36:18I mean, you went by the SOPs.
36:20There was nothing to hide.
36:21But the very fact that I think that repetition, internalization, and habit, this is what the
36:26practice means for any soldier, that you make it a reflex action.
36:30Obviously, the practice to perfection wasn't there, and therefore, this type of hesitant
36:35action took place, and then it brought embarrassment to the RAF.
36:38Now, coming to the fact, is it justified in the face of so many casualties, in the face of
36:43so many policemen being battered, and the loss of property?
36:49I would say this is something that is something very basic, and I have seen similar situations,
36:55and I did not get away just by using pellet guns, but I had to escalate it to the use
36:59of
36:59rubber bullets and solid bullets.
37:01That is why I am saluting the forbearance and the patience of the deadly police.
37:04Now, to say that 9-8-8 criminals were there accused of hardened crime, do you think for
37:10a moment that they would be sitting ducks and being silent spectators?
37:15No.
37:15They would be pelting stones at the police.
37:18They would be using violence.
37:19They would be using arson as a tool, and then making reels also.
37:23There are any number of videos that are in currently.
37:26I want to bring in Jay, Anand, Dahad Rai, once again into this conversation, because if
37:31there are 2,000 plus people with criminal antecedents in the crowd, why are those 2,000
37:37plus people who have been seen on facial recognition camera not in jail already?
37:41Point one, point two, sir, the Supreme Court has not ordered blanket withdrawal of FIRs.
37:48They have permitted investigations to continue while protecting students from coercive action
37:53and release those without criminal antecedents.
37:56And yet, Jay, Anand, Dahad Rai, the CJP has described the court's conditions as unacceptable
38:02and they say withdraw all FIRs through executive action.
38:07Where do you stand on this and how do you see the CJP demand?
38:11Karam, I disagree with the CJP.
38:13I mean, this was to be expected.
38:16In any form of coercive protest, if we allow it to take place,
38:21it is akin to us holding a gun to somebody's head and holding them to ransom,
38:26which is exactly what the CJP did to the government of India.
38:29And now they're basically, they're so emboldened by their success against the government
38:33in forcing them to make a democratically elected minister resign,
38:38that now they've, you know, graduated to the Honourable Supreme Court of India.
38:42So imagine the gall now to, you know, to basically threaten the court
38:47and essentially to say that, look, if we don't agree with what you've said,
38:50this is not acceptable to us.
38:52And if we don't like it, we'll hit the streets again and we'll start protesting again.
38:55This is essentially what it means.
38:57According to me, this statement is textbook contempt.
39:00But having said that, I think I completely agree with the very, very distinguished Mr. Vikram Singh
39:06from, you know, the former IPS, very senior IPS officer.
39:08What he says is absolutely right.
39:10The Delhi police ought to be saluted for their patience in dealing with this marauding crowd.
39:15I mean, 200 policemen.
39:18We saw one in particular mobbed by maybe 20 rioters.
39:22I should call them rioters.
39:23They were essentially rioting.
39:25Now to whitewash all of that.
39:26And I would with great respect say this to Adil as well,
39:29that of course, you know, the peaceful protesters, we all stand by them.
39:33There's no problem.
39:33Peaceful protest is lovely.
39:35But for God's sake, we can't possibly say there should be amnesty granted to those
39:40who are marauding on the streets and trying to burn our city down
39:43and to basically to lynch policemen.
39:46I'm sorry, there cannot be any amnesty.
39:48We should all protest this if it happens.
39:51Okay.
39:51Adil Singh, Voparai, you want to quickly respond to that, sir?
39:54CJP says there should be an executive order.
39:56All FIRs withdrawn.
39:58Is the Congress also on the same page, including those who were involved in alleged rioting,
40:04targeting of the police, vandalism, breaking police vans, sir?
40:08I don't speak for the CJP, but as far as the Congress party is concerned,
40:12our demand is very clear.
40:14All the errant officers who have used excessive force,
40:19they should be sacked.
40:20Disciplinary proceedings should be initiated against them.
40:23Point number one.
40:24Point number two, the Home Minister must come on the floor of the House
40:27and make a clear statement whether he authorised the use of pellet guns or not.
40:33Number two.
40:34Number three, please do not look at this entire incident in silos.
40:39This is part of a larger subset or a larger context of a brazen and an arrogant government
40:45along with their propaganda tools who believe that they are immune from accountability.
40:51This is actually a manifest...
40:53Are vandals immune from accountability is the question that I also want to raise here
40:59on this broadcast.
41:01Those who are targeting the police, those with criminal antecedents,
41:05are they immune?
41:06Can I say something very quickly?
41:07May I say something very quickly?
41:0930 seconds, Jay.
41:1030 seconds.
41:10Very quickly.
41:11Very quickly.
41:12You know, Gaurav, I understand and I empathise with Adil's predicament.
41:17He's faced with a leader who is never available in the country, who's most of the time he's
41:23on holiday somewhere in some unknown location.
41:25So when this entire issue was brewing in the country, even their own leadership
41:28and the Congress itself had no idea where Rahul Gandhi was.
41:32So he comes back and he finds that, all right, somebody else is...
41:35Somebody else is now...
41:36One moment, let me complete, please.
41:39Somebody else has now taken center stage in terms of this grievance of the students.
41:43So he comes in late and now he's basically very upset.
41:46So he throws a tantrum.
41:47Okay, since you made a direct charge, Adil wants to respond, sir.
41:50Because I have only 30 seconds, I have to get to the other story.
41:53Adil has to respond.
41:54So because they are piggy banking, Gaurav, because they have to piggy bank on this CJP student
41:59issue, so therefore now they must support the vandals.
42:02This is the true phrase of the Congress.
42:04Sir, support the students, but the vandals.
42:06Okay, Adil Singh Bhoparai wants to respond.
42:08Yes, sir.
42:08Adil Singh Bhoparai.
42:10My friend is trying to be more loyal than the king.
42:13My friend is trying to be more loyal than the king.
42:15I don't think even the BJP has gone that far as my friend.
42:18But be that as it may, perhaps he has his compulsion.
42:22Can I interrupt you, brother?
42:23The problem is poor Adil is really down in the ranks of the Congress.
42:29Okay, no, no, only Adil.
42:32Let me complete.
42:33Don't get anxious.
42:34Don't get anxious, brother.
42:35Only Adil.
42:36He may have his compulsion for whatever reason.
42:39I do not know he would be in a better position to respond.
42:41But let me be very clear.
42:43This country today is at a crossroad.
42:46We are at a turning point.
42:47People are fed up with propaganda and the arrogance of this government.
42:51And you will see if this government does not run as per laws and as per the constitution
42:57and believes that it can throttle its way through this country,
43:02they will see more protests and more expression of people's anger.
43:06Which is the worry that the fact that the government is seen as folding to this pressure,
43:17there will be more pressure groups that will carry out more protests
43:21and they may be more violent next time.
43:22No, no, I think it was a pragmatic decision at the end of the day.
43:27But, you know, today's discovery of the criminals' involvement in the protests
43:34has given rise to more questions.
43:36Who was it who infiltrated these protests with these criminals?
43:40Was it Rahul Gandhi?
43:41Because, you know, at the end of the day, we saw Sonam Bangchuk made a statement.
43:45Some anti-socials have entered the movement.
43:47The moment he made that statement, the moment Sonam Bangchuk made that statement,
43:52Congress parties attacked him.
43:54Or was it Ahm Admi party leaders have spent a good amount of time in Tihar jail in the last
44:02three years?
44:04Sir, but, you are the government, you are the ruling party.
44:07Will you ask questions or will you investigate and give us answers?
44:11The nation would want to have answers and not questions from the government.
44:15But this is a debate that I shall continue to have.
44:17Arzu Kazmi is a journalist who joins us from Pakistan.
44:20Sushant Sareen is Senior Fellow of the Observer Research Foundation.
44:23It's a Hawkeye on developments in Pakistan.
44:26Arzu, what's the current situation?
44:29There are reports of a bloodbath in Muzafirabad, in Meerpur and in other parts of POJK.
44:37Exactly.
44:38Gaurav, this situation is like this.
44:40But the right figures are not coming in front of us.
44:42The latest news is that they have the Deputy Commissioner in Kashmir and the S.P.
44:49Kortlin and all of them have been suspended.
45:05Well, we were not going to stop this in mind, because they have been suspended.
45:13We had a full investigation of the media.
45:15We were also concerned that all of them were not coming in such a way.
45:21and some videos you will receive, which journalists and media persons are saying that there are many people who are
45:28going to go.
45:29I don't know the right figures, there are many people who are in danger and I believe that Pakistan's government
45:34is not in control.
45:38Sushant, what are you picking up? Some reports seem to indicate that the death toll that was earlier 90 plus,
45:44more than between 20 and 40, some reports say even higher, number of people have been killed, many more injured.
45:54Again, Gaurav, I agree with Arzu that because of the kind of conditions and the media clampdown,
46:01it's very difficult to get an accurate number.
46:03I think one of the numbers which the Joint Action Awami Committee is giving is probably closer to the truth,
46:12but maybe even an underestimate because a lot of people are missing.
46:16There are a lot of people apparently in hospital.
46:19A lot of people haven't gone to the hospital because according to some reports, they were severely injured.
46:25But because there was a fear that if anything untoward happened to them,
46:30then this brutal state of Pakistan will not even hand over their bodies to the next of kin.
46:36So as a result, people have taken these guys home and private treatment is being given.
46:40So numbers are kind of, you know, it's hazy, the estimate of the casualties.
46:47But what you can see from whatever evidence is available,
46:51and again, it's quite remarkable that even this stuff is coming out because there's a complete media clampdown.
46:58The Pakistani media in any case is, you know, it's basically the extension of the ISPR.
47:06Most of these so-called journalists who claim that they have been working for 50 years and their contribution to
47:12journalism,
47:13that's what they've always done throughout their life, are absolutely quiet.
47:18They don't have the guts or, you know, I don't use the anatomy, which obviously they don't have.
47:27But these are people who are not willing to even open their mouth.
47:31They will talk about what happens in India, but they can't talk about what's happening beneath their nose.
47:36What are you picking up through local media, Urdu media, other sources of information,
47:44Austen information, what is the situation in POJK, Sushant?
47:48Well, the situation is pretty much out of control.
47:51I think they have instigated people to a point where it's all, you know, it reminds me, Gaurav,
47:59I think you might have been a little too young, but it reminds me of what happened in Jammu and
48:03Kashmir in 1987.
48:05There are parallels out there with the kind of outrage of people, the kind of, you know, high handedness which
48:14the Pakistani state has carried out.
48:16The sentiment out there is at breaking point, if it is not already broken.
48:22I think, and the sentiment is widespread, it's throughout the region.
48:29And quite clearly, I think they will find it very difficult to bring, you know, put a lid back on.
48:35The mainstream parties are gone, they are finished, they've lost all credibility.
48:40The election which they held yesterday, it was a completely sham election.
48:43I don't know, some estimate that there were 8 or 9 percent, 10 percent voting.
48:48But in Pakistan, the percentage of voting does not matter, because there's enough evidence which has come out that they'd
48:55already filled up ballot boxes to be taken.
48:58Some ballot boxes apparently were set on fire.
49:01But, Arzu, can't this state be worse?
49:04Because it's going on a month, it's going on a month, it's going on a lot.
49:07Some reports say that if the people die, if the people die before and today,
49:11they are not dead.
49:14They were dead.
49:15So, there are hundreds of people who killed them.
49:15They are dead, they are dead.
49:20Then, they are dead.
49:22But, the casualties of the casualties, the exact figure, they are not the exact figure.
49:25They are dead.
49:26They are injured and been injured, who are dead.
49:30So, the casualties of the casualties, they are different.
50:01the
50:17and while it's happening in POJK right now
50:20if we were to talk about Pakistan's army chief
50:23Asim Munir
50:24he's carried out multiple
50:26what is being described even in Pakistan
50:30as mass murders
50:32whether it's in Pakistan's Punjab province
50:34including Dichok
50:35and in Lahore
50:37so Islamabad and Lahore
50:38whether it's targeting Imran Khan supporters
50:41or PTI supporters
50:43or Pashtun workers
50:44Baluchistan, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
50:46now POJK
50:48there's a massacre virtually everywhere
50:50in the past recent months
50:52Yeah, you know
50:54I think the problem with him is
50:56that he's drunk on power
50:57he thinks that because the Pakistan army has the guns
51:00because there are these pliant puppet politicians
51:04like Shahbaz Sharif and others
51:06you know, who he orders them around
51:09and they will fall in line
51:10and do whatever he asks them to do
51:12the whole country is
51:14can be run like that
51:15and quite clearly
51:17you know, it's that Jaya Khan kind of a model
51:19that I will use
51:21I will crack the whip
51:22and everybody will fall in line
51:24well, everybody is not falling in line
51:26there are two provinces
51:27which are already not in control
51:30they're totally out of control
51:31you have another occupied area of POJK
51:36which is out of control
51:37there is restiveness in rest of the country
51:39nobody likes this government
51:41it has no legitimacy
51:43Shahbaz Sharif, Nawaz Sharif
51:44these puppets had lost their own election
51:47and yet they're ruling the roost
51:49even what has happened yesterday in POJK
51:52you know, it's a travesty of an election
51:54because they will take out
51:57whatever percentage they want
51:58because they are the ones
52:00the army is the ones
52:01which is stamping the ballot boxes
52:02and quite clearly
52:04a wimp like
52:06this guy Bilawal Bhutto
52:08he will keep quiet
52:09this is the revenge of his democracy
52:11on himself
52:12so these kind of clown show
52:15which is going on
52:16inside Pakistan
52:17frankly
52:18it enthuses the
52:20military dictator out there
52:22but it's not solving any problems
52:24in fact problems are only mounting
52:26and there are voices
52:28which are now rising
52:29which are actually comparing him
52:31with Raya Khan
52:32and saying that
52:33this man is all set
52:34to break up Pakistan
52:36in one form or another
52:37or at least make it completely
52:39the situation in Pakistan
53:03and especially in Pakistan
53:05occupied Jammu and Kashmir
53:06right now
53:07remains extremely precarious
53:08okay, 30 seconds
53:0930 seconds, Sushant
53:11you know, Gaurav
53:12it's all very well to say
53:14that it's not like 71
53:15but in some ways
53:16it's even worse than 71
53:18in 71
53:18there was only one province
53:20which was a thousand miles away
53:23which was restive
53:24and which had gone into rebellion
53:25right now
53:26you have three areas
53:28under your control
53:29right?
53:30colonies of yours
53:30which are rebelling
53:32and whether it is
53:34an implosion
53:34which takes place
53:35whether it is
53:37something else
53:37which takes place
53:38it is complete anarchy
53:39it is a civil war
53:40like situation
53:41which ultimately
53:42starts playing out
53:43because not only
53:44do you have
53:45three provinces
53:46you have two bordering countries
53:48with which you are at war
53:50India and Afghanistan
53:51absolutely
53:51absolutely
53:53and that's a story
53:53we'll be tracking
53:54very closely
53:55is Pakistan
53:56heading towards
53:57an implosion
53:58a quick break
53:59quick break
54:00news and updates
54:01continue on India Today
54:02stay with us
54:03thanks
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