- 6 weeks ago
In this debate hosted by Preeti, panelists discuss Rahul Gandhi's protest at Sansad Marg Thana demanding an FIR regarding the alleged use of pellet guns against students. BJP national spokesperson Dr Saeed Zafar Islam terms the move a political stunt, stating, 'This is nothing but it's a stunt which will definitely backfire on him,' and emphasizes that a Supreme Court-mandated high-powered committee is examining the matter. Congress MP Dr Syed Nasir Hussein responds by arguing that escalating the issue was necessary after force was used against students on July 20, questioning why it took over a month to file an FIR. Political analyst Rajat Sethi notes the technicalities surrounding zero FIRs and operational morale, while acknowledging optical missteps by the BJP. Former IPS officer Yashvardhan Azad highlights procedural norms regarding police crowd control, noting that while pellet guns are not banned, failure to lodge an FIR when an injured victim approaches the station creates unnecessary confusion.
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00:00So before we cut across to our debate this evening, the big questions that we ask and we debate.
00:05Politics of resistance or politics of anarchy?
00:09Publicity stunt or fight for justice?
00:12Rahul's bid to corner government, is it really working?
00:15Let's take it all to our panelists this evening.
00:18Joining me, Dr. Saeed Nasir Hussain, Rajya Sabha MP.
00:23Congress, Dr. Saeed Zafar Islam, national spokesperson.
00:34I'd like to begin with Saeed Zafar Islam because, Dr. Islam, what you call anarchy, some would suggest is just
00:42asking,
00:43which is the business of the leader of opposition of this country, asking the police here in Delhi to follow
00:50basic statutory procedure.
00:53Filing an FIR is exactly that.
00:56How does that translate into anarchy?
00:59Well, you have to understand that Mr. Rahul Gandhi has forgotten that India is a democratic country.
01:06There is a democratic institution.
01:08There is a democratic process.
01:09Everyone has to follow.
01:11This is nothing but it's a stunt which will definitely backfire on him.
01:14He's trying to mislead the nation.
01:16He's trying to mislead the youth of this great country.
01:19And if at all he had to go to the police station, he could have spoken on the phone.
01:23Or even if he really wanted to help somebody, then he should have had faith in judiciary.
01:31Because he has no faith in judiciary.
01:33When the Supreme Court itself has instructed to form a committee, the high-powered committee, which is actually examining everything,
01:41whatever be the issues which needs to be examined, that is being examined by the high-powered committee, then Crime
01:49Branch is investigating it.
01:50So one has to wait when the Supreme Court has already instructed, formed a committee, then the committee's report will
01:57definitely, the committee will find out every single statement made by every student.
02:03And then they will come with the final outcome, whether the pellet gun was really used, if it was used,
02:12who had used it.
02:13And then if there is a fire that needs to be filed, then it must be filed.
02:17But Dr. Islam, on three facts there.
02:20Number one, in this case, the victim, who is the alleged victim of pellet gun use, is Sahil.
02:28He says that he, along with his lawyer, for three days have been trying to get this FIR registered.
02:34That hasn't quite happened.
02:36And that is what enforced Rahul Gandhi to take up his cause and try and ask for the registration of
02:42FIR.
02:42So he really couldn't have spoken on the phone, because for three days running, the victim was trying to register
02:48that FIR.
02:50The second thing, sir, while yes, you are correct that a judicial probe is on, but it's statutory procedure if
02:56the victim in this case wants to get an FIR lodged.
03:01Number three, multiple RTIs, multiple accounts by hospitals have suggested the use of pellet guns, something that even the Delhi
03:09police has admitted.
03:10They have admitted the use of pellet guns, sir.
03:14No, you are factually incorrect.
03:16The Delhi police has said that they have never given instruction to use the pellet guns.
03:21That is something which is a disconnect.
03:22Sir, they have admitted.
03:23It has been filed in Delhi police records.
03:26Not at all.
03:27It was filed three days later.
03:29I'll tell you, sir, it was not on the 20th of July.
03:32Three days after that, an entry was made at the Sonsat Marthana.
03:36You must go back and see what the Delhi police statement is.
03:39Delhi police have very clearly clarified that no instruction has been given to the police officers to use the pellet
03:45gun, and none of them have used the pellet gun.
03:47But if somebody was struck by the pellet gun, then it needs to be investigated who was the one who
03:54used it, who was the one who fired it.
03:56And that is why the committee has been formed by the Honorable Supreme Court.
04:00But when somebody is behaving like an anarchist Rahul Gandhi, there was no need for him to sit on dharna
04:06for an affair.
04:08I mean, how many police stations he can go?
04:10Only because there is a student involved, he is using their shoulders to pursue his own political ambition.
04:19That is not correct.
04:20You cannot use a student for your personal benefits or your political benefits.
04:26And that is what Rahul Gandhi is saying.
04:27And that is why I'm saying it is a pure stunt which will backfire on Rahul Gandhi as well as
04:33the Congress Party.
04:35All right.
04:36Okay.
04:36You're saying it's a stunt?
04:38Well, I'll go through and I'll give you all the details of when the Delhi police made that entry, the
04:43number of RTRs that were filed and confirmed at the back of the use of pellet gun, sir.
04:48So I'm going to give you exact details.
04:49But first up, let me also get in Dr. Nasser.
04:52I'll come back to you, sir, because you said I have my facts wrong.
04:55I don't have my facts wrong.
04:56I'll give you the facts.
04:57I'm saying that you must go back to what Dr. Jitinder Singh has spoken on the floor of the parliament.
05:02Sir, he said no gun was fired.
05:04There's a difference between pellet gun and gun.
05:06But I'll give you the facts.
05:09No, sir, you know, you've challenged us on facts.
05:11I'll give you the facts.
05:12But allow me to bring in Dr. Nasser Hussain into this conversation because Dr. Nasser Hussain, Saeed Zafar Islam has
05:18a very strong point where he said there is a judicial probe which is on.
05:22To get into political gimmickry at the back of what you think is exploiting a victim, in this case Sahil,
05:30what are you looking to achieve out of that other than just plain exploiting the victim here?
05:38Priti, when did the Congress party get into the agitation mode?
05:44Priti, when the students were fighting their cause, when they were protesting at Jantar Mantar, Congress didn't go to Jantar
05:51Mantar.
05:52Congress didn't go and sit there with them.
05:54Congress didn't try to politicize this.
05:57But we tried to air our concerns of the students to different mediums.
06:02We had to step in and we had to escalate their agitation only when force was used against the students
06:09on 20th July.
06:11It was not just force.
06:13It was brute force.
06:14And thereafter we took it up in the parliament and we made Mr. Dharmendra Pradhan design.
06:20We wanted Mr. Amit Shah under whom the Delhi police comes to come to the parliament and make a statement
06:25that didn't happen.
06:25Now point number two, he says that India is a democratic country.
06:31It is a democratic country, but does it continue to be a democratic country?
06:36Does in a democratic country it takes more than a month to file a simple FIR, which is a very
06:43very simple procedure.
06:44Any complaint, you have to file an FIR if there is some substance in this.
06:48Delhi police says they had not issued direction to anyone to fire pilots at the students.
06:53If they had not issued instructions to fire pilots, then it is even more it is the duty to file
07:00an FIR and find out who has fired those pilots and on whose instructions he has fired those pilots.
07:04But Dr. Hussain, there was an entry that was made in the records of Delhi police and there are RTLs
07:08which I will take you through.
07:09But away from all of that.
07:10Let me, let me finish.
07:11I will let you finish, but Dr. Hussain, just one question.
07:14Isn't the Congress today exploiting a victim to gain political mileage in what was a flash protest at the Sansad
07:20Marg Thana?
07:22What is political mileage in that?
07:26You are keeping a pellet gun victim for more than a month away from the due process of the police,
07:33not filing an FIR.
07:34He is going there with his advocate day in and day out.
07:37When he reaches out to LOP of this country, leader of opposition of this country, do you think he shouldn't
07:43help this guy?
07:45He shouldn't help him to get justice?
07:46And again and again, BJ, spokesperson after spokesperson, Bharatiya Jantapati and different channels are saying, Supreme Court directed inquiry committee
07:57is going on.
07:58Let the inquiry committee do its job.
08:00Let the police do its job.
08:02And for God's sake, don't keep on counting on the inquiry committee of the Supreme Court.
08:07It is not because of you, it is because of the Supreme Court which censored you and which said that
08:11we'll constitute an inquiry committee.
08:14It's on its direction that the inquiry committee is formed.
08:17They are doing their job.
08:18Will an FIR undermine the job of the inquiry committee in this country?
08:23Okay, I'm going to come back to you, Dr. Isla.
08:24There is a minimum responsibility of the police to file an FIR if there is any complaint.
08:27Fair point, sir.
08:28Okay, I'm going to come back to you.
08:29I want to just open out the debate.
08:30I want to bring in Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
08:33Rajat Sethi, on July 23rd, and maybe, you know, Dr. Islam, Saeed Zafar Islam, you are also, I believe, a
08:40doctor, can also listen into this, Mr. Islam, which is on the 23rd of August, on the 23rd of July,
08:50Rajat Sethi, the Rapid Action Force General Diary Entry explicitly records the firing of plastic pellets on the order of
08:57a DCP,
08:58which medical reports and RTI responses then corroborate multiple times, not once, multiple times.
09:04So nobody's, and of course, there's a judicial probe in it.
09:07The question is, if, do you think it was correct for the BJP to call it anarchy at the back
09:13of what Rahul Gandhi did?
09:15At best, it's political gimmickry.
09:17It's trying to exploit the victim.
09:18How is following statutory process anarchy?
09:26So, Preeti ji, I think there are two issues.
09:29One is technical in nature, and the other is politics slash optics.
09:35On the technicalities, there are better informed panelists on the show.
09:40But there is what is being consistently said that there was already a complaint that was filed.
09:45There was already, you know, what the Supreme Court formed a committee which is looking into it.
09:50So there was no need for a separate complaint to file in at this stage.
09:54And also an FIR necessarily had to be a zero FIR because there is nobody pinpointedly who can say that
10:01this was the person who was accused.
10:03In this case, a lot of people who are writing on social media, a lot of people who have served
10:09as IPS officers, senior ones, have said that,
10:11you know, if you go after every operational move that the armed forces, police forces or the paramilitary forces do,
10:18you will end up reducing or heavily impacting the morale of these forces who would never go out and contain
10:25a situation.
10:25They would be more worried about them falling prey to any kind of a politically charged attacks later on.
10:33So this is where a lot of experts, technical experts have been writing that you need to draw a red
10:39line as to how much should you go in.
10:41There should be an independent committee which should look into this affair.
10:44And if it was not the operational exigency which forced the police personnel to actually use this pellet gun,
10:52in that case, yes, certain actions have to be taken and exemplary actions can be taken.
10:58But on the other side, which is the politics and the optics for it, I believe, I mean, BJP understands
11:04very well that they were optically
11:06and from a politics perspective on the downside, they morally also they could have been on top of this situation
11:14and, you know, allowed the Delhi police to actually go out and file an FIR even before Rahul Gandhi took
11:21this as an issue.
11:22It had to be a zero FIR.
11:23You don't have to pinpoint anybody, but allow that.
11:26Take some soft blows for larger interest from a political theatrics perspective
11:31that you allowed Rahul Gandhi to unleash for the entire day.
11:34I believe yet again, BJP has erred here, they could have managed the situation better.
11:40But I will leave it here.
11:41But the technicalities also have to be looked into.
11:44Let me get in.
11:45Let me get in.
11:45I want to bring Yashavarda and Azad to look at the technicalities.
11:48Yes, sir, Rahul Gandhi will do politics.
11:50See, opposition is there for doing politics only.
11:52That's his job.
11:53That's his job to do politics.
11:54That is their job, exactly.
11:55He's the leader of opposition.
11:56They will play with emotions.
11:58BJP has to be prepared for it.
12:00Okay.
12:00And I want to bring in Yashavarda and Azad because through the course of the last couple,
12:04like a month and a half now, you know, Mr. Azad, you've always stood up for the Delhi police.
12:10You said that, you know, there were casualties on both sides.
12:14There wasn't excessive force.
12:16This is how the Delhi police reacts.
12:18You've stood up for the forces.
12:19When you speak of today, the fact is, Dr. Azad, Mr. Azad, if you can lodge FIRs against
12:29unknown faces or unknown people who pelted stones, why can't an FIR be lodged at the back
12:36of this young victim who clearly has medical records to suggest he has pellet gun injuries,
12:42which is corroborated with RTI records, which says pellet guns were used, something which
12:47was corroborated again by a rapid action force diary entry that plastic pellets were used
12:54on the 20th of July.
12:56What was so wrong in registering the FIR right in the beginning?
13:00Why wait for six hours to register that FIR?
13:02Well, let me sort of say that needless confusion has been created on this particular issue for
13:12long.
13:13And one, I did not back the police totally.
13:17I said the unprofessional acts of the police must be inquired into.
13:23Note it, sir.
13:24Police has a higher degree of responsibility because in lawful discharge of his duties.
13:30I never go one side, always have a balance to you about this.
13:35Number one, the point is that in this particular case, first, the Delhi police refused to accept
13:43that pellet guns were fired.
13:45Two days later, when the RAF moved in, then it was clear that it was under DCP command that
13:52pellet guns were fired and injuries took place.
13:56The problem is, this was not backed by the government.
14:00And I don't know who the advisors of the government were.
14:03The government should have come out very strongly saying, yes, the pellet guns were fired in lawful
14:10discharge of duties.
14:12And whether the technicality part, whether it was premeditated violence, etc., will be judged
14:21by an inquiry because during a lawful discharge of police duty in crowd control, you do not
14:29lodge an FIR till a magisterial inquiry or a judicial inquiry establishes it.
14:36What happened here was that the government remained silent.
14:40The police said, ha, hum ne kia.
14:42That also much later.
14:44In that respect, then when the pellet injury guy comes to a police station, then an FIR has
14:50to be lodged.
14:51There is no two ways about it.
14:54So it's the government which did a self-goal.
14:57And partially I agree with Rajat Sethi on this particular point.
15:01This is the key issue in this.
15:04Now, the pellet gun is not banned.
15:06In 2018, the minister in parliament said that pellet guns are not banned.
15:13It is used to be as a second life resort.
15:16Despite the fact that 2010 and 2016, there were massive reports of injuries, which the
15:23MHA has, 6,000 injuries.
15:26And after 2016, there were no use of pellet guns in the mainland.
15:32Now, what has happened is a complete confusion is there because the Supreme Court has given
15:39and said that we will look into the police excesses.
15:43Now, the police excesses means the violence.
15:46So that will include whether the pellet guns were fired rightly or not.
15:52Proportional means in Putuswamy judgment that whether it was not only criminal and proportional
15:59to the threat that the police faced.
16:02Fat boy.