- 3 months ago
A day after eight accused were arrested in connection with Ram Mandir donation case, now Shri Ram Janmabhoomi Teerth Kshetra Trust General Secretary Champat Rai and trustee Anil Mishra submitted their resignations, taking moral responsibility, according to sources.
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00:01Namaskar, hello and welcome to the weekly roundtable.
00:05The Ram Mandir in Ayodhya has been always more than just a temple.
00:11For millions of Indians, it is seen as a symbol of faith, devotion and civilizational pride.
00:17Every rupee donated, every ornament offered has been viewed as an act of trust by millions of devotees.
00:24But this week, that trust has been under scrutiny.
00:27A government-appointed SIT has flagged serious procedural lapses in the handling of donations.
00:33An FIR has been registered.
00:35The investigation is expanding.
00:37Allegations are extending beyond cash donations to questions over land transactions.
00:43The General Secretary and the trustee of the Ram Mandir Trust have had to step down
00:48after eight of their trusted aides have been named in the FIR.
00:52But that does not diminish the big questions before us today that we want to raise on our weekly roundtable.
00:59Because when faith and public money intersect, should the standards of transparency be even higher than elsewhere?
01:07If anyone has betrayed the trust of devotees, should accountability be absolute regardless of position or influence?
01:14Today, we ask questions that go beyond the politics.
01:18They go to the heart of public trust and yes, the issue of corruption in this country.
01:24Is corruption in India so pervasive that even our places of faith are no longer beyond suspicion?
01:30Before I go across to my guest joining me today, here is a look at the big story that we've
01:37been tracking.
01:44Is this the ultimate law society could sink to?
01:50Fraud in the name of faith.
01:54Bhaks of Ramalalla cheated of their beliefs, of their trust.
01:58It's an acid test for the Yogi government.
02:13But can the BJP still deflect accountability from Chanda Chori?
02:28Have the pawns been scapegoated to let off the government?
02:31Is corruption all pervasive in India, even in temples of faith?
02:45The Ram Mandir roundtable with Rajdeep Sadhasai begins now.
02:52Okay then, let's raise the big questions on the roundtable.
02:57Cheating devotees, is this the ultimate law for Indian society?
03:01Is the cash grab at the Ram temple just the tip of the iceberg?
03:06Or a symptom of a larger systemic rot?
03:09Fraud in the name of faith.
03:11Is this Yogi government's acid test now?
03:15Can the BJP deflect accountability from a scam involving its biggest ideological plank?
03:22Is corruption simply all pervasive in India, even when it comes to matters of faith?
03:28Those are some of the questions that I will raise today.
03:31Joining me now, our special guest.
03:33Rahul Verma is political scientist and someone who tracks politics.
03:37Rajat Sethi joins me.
03:39Someone who is a political commentator, has worked closely with BJP governments.
03:43Ashutosh is editor Satya Hindi and also a former member of the Aam Admi Party.
03:49Pradeep Bharti is the Samajwadi Party leader.
03:52Professor Sangeet Ragi is joining me, has written extensively on these issues.
03:57And I'm also joined by Rahul Ishwar, a Hindu right-wing activist who's also been associated with various temples.
04:05Thank you all very much for joining us.
04:08As you've seen, I've raised several big questions and I want to come to the heart of the matter.
04:13Are we now saying that in India, even faith has been corrupted by greed?
04:18That's the question I want to start with.
04:21And maybe Rahul Ishwar, because you've been involved with temple movements, do you concede that what has happened at the
04:27Ram temple suggests that greed matters even more than faith in this country?
04:34Yes, Razir, for some people, let us not generalize, but for some people, it is extremely painful.
04:39I had the great privilege to be one of the people there on the Pranapratishtha on a day.
04:44And the same thing happened in Shabirimala, you might have heard.
04:46No, a kilo grams of gold have been snatched and looted and Kerala High Court is right now seized upon
04:51that matter.
04:52So it is extremely painful.
04:53Beyond politics, it is extremely painful such a thing happened.
04:57And I hope such a thing should never happen.
04:59We have suggested some structural reforms in Kerala, something like make a right to information applicable to temple, church, mosque
05:05and ashram.
05:06So that as a devotee, I can know where money money is going to.
05:09And it is extremely painful that Sri Ram, you know, our father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi, believed in Ram.
05:14And he wondered, Ramarajah, which is a secular pluralistic concept, that Ram has been corrupted in a very bad way.
05:19And this is not politics.
05:20This is much beyond politics.
05:22And I hope Prime Minister's office, Yogi ji, will all take strong and serious measures so that the lost trust
05:27and the wound, even while I'm speaking about this, it scarves the mind to think about the Ramlala has been
05:32or the wealth associated with Ramlala has been stolen.
05:35So it is extremely painful.
05:37More accountability should be there.
05:39And I know some small fissures are right now being taken by police, is what media reports suggest.
05:43That is not enough.
05:44You know, if a scale of this theft has to happen, there has to be some higher-ups, you know,
05:49who are responsible for this.
05:50So I hope they will be taken into account.
05:52And beyond politics, BJP and RSS, especially Sankh will take, Sankh being a very prominent Hindu organization, will take strong
05:59and serious measures so that the public trust and the devotee trust is regained.
06:04You know, regaining public trust, of course, is a big issue, Rajat Sethi.
06:09But it is also, in the immediate sense, a huge political embarrassment.
06:13Uttar Pradesh goes to the polls in a few months from now.
06:16Over the last decade, if there is one issue which the BJP has projected at its ideological plank, Rajat Sethi,
06:22it has been the Ram Mandir.
06:23And what happens now, that the very Mandir, which is seen to be the fountainhead of the ideological fountainhead, is
06:30seen to be caught in this kind of a donation scam.
06:33Does this become a political embarrassment or something even more?
06:39No, I think, Rajat Sethi, this stealth of money is not just a simple stealth of money or an act
06:46of corruption.
06:47It is the highest form of stealth of faith.
06:51And I believe BJP and people, emotionally associated, organizations associated with the Ram Temple over the last three decades, you
07:01know, would be jolted into this realization that some of the people belonging to the same set of organizations, belonging
07:07to that trusted network of individuals have all been, you know, named in the FIR.
07:13And this does come in as a root shock, that you cannot take SOPs, procedures for granted, even if it
07:21comes to temple management.
07:22And, you know, while there is so much, such a strong movement, which is going on to actually remove the
07:29temple management away from the government hands, into the devotees' hands.
07:32And if the devotees end up doing this, you will have to go back to, you know, the drawing board
07:38where perhaps the same set of bureaucrats will have to be entrusted with the responsibility of temple management.
07:44So we are back at square one.
07:45So all ideological movements, everything comes to or not, and this is a deeply uncomfortable position.
07:50And a lot of people, not just the government or the BJP, but the Hindus who felt that states should
07:57stay away from religion, are at crossroads where they don't know who is the trusted, you know, keeper of our
08:05faith that way.
08:06So it's a very, very sad movement.
08:08No, are you saying, no, are you saying, therefore, that the government and the Bureau, the government has no responsibility?
08:15Are you saying that the entire responsibility must lie at the door of the temple management?
08:20Do you really believe the temple management was functioning completely autonomously of the government, given the fact that, as you
08:26also said, many of the representatives of the temple management are associated with the wider Sangh Paribar?
08:33See, again, if there are a few moles within the organization, a few dark spots within the organization, it is
08:40unfair to sort of blanket paint the entire organization that way.
08:45Actions have been taken and actions will continue to be taken till the accountability is not fixed.
08:49However, I also feel that, you know, these set of individuals, they were SOPs.
08:56I mean, if Nependra Mishraji was appointed as a temple construction committee chairman, he had handed over the reins of
09:02the temple management to this committee with very strong SOPs.
09:06I mean, look at the SBI's role, which was the custodian of this wealth.
09:10There were people who were asked what kind of clothes they can wear, what kind of protocols they have to
09:15ensure when they are into the room where the funds have to be counted.
09:17If all of those things are flouted, you will have to understand that these corrupt individuals went over and above
09:24everything and they took the trust that was bestowed on them for granted.
09:29And I believe punishment of the highest order should be meted out to them.
09:33And will it have political repercussions?
09:35A hundred percent.
09:36Will BJP be facing the heat right now?
09:38A hundred percent.
09:38But will it snowball into, like, a political advantage for the Samajwadi party?
09:42Those are two stretched arguments which I don't fall for.
09:45This is, you know, let us think on first order.
09:47At the first order itself, it's a very sad moment.
09:50And I believe the people, the devotees would want to see justice in this entire episode.
09:58Okay, Pradeep Bhati, you want to respond to what you heard from Rajat Sethi?
10:02He's being honest enough to say, yes, it's been embarrassing for the BJP.
10:05But if the Samajwadi party wants to take advantage, Akhilesh Yadav believes that in an election year, he wants to
10:10take advantage by claiming to be the one who blew the whistle.
10:13That may not happen.
10:15Because, as Rajat seems to indicate, the government has acted.
10:18The General Secretary has been virtually forced to resign.
10:22Eight people have been detained, probably will be arrested and will face the courts.
10:28So, how can the Samajwadi, is the Samajwadi party now going to say this is going to become their political
10:32plank?
10:33Will this entire issue now be tangled in electoral politics in this year in Uttar Pradesh, Mr. Bhati?
10:41Thank you, Rajat Sethi, for having me and good evening to all.
10:44Let me start with one of the saying in Ramchahid Manas.
10:54Meaning, those who are hypocrites, decideful, disguise themselves as a saint or to deceive others, their lies and realities are
11:04exposed one day.
11:05And it has happened this time also.
11:08The deception or drama that there cannot be continued forever.
11:12So, the question of faith is one, not related to one political party rather than it's a belief of hundred
11:19millions of people of India.
11:23No, but you are targeting the BJP.
11:25I am seeing Akhilesh Yadam's comments are targeting the Yogi Adityanath government.
11:29Are you saying Yogi Adityanath government has to take responsibility?
11:33Definitely, I am coming to that because the issue was raised by the chairman of this trust itself.
11:48So, it itself suggests that what is happening in the trust and trust has the UP government members as well
11:56as central government members.
11:57The issue was raised by one of the accountant and then there were further cash was recovered from the home
12:04from other people.
12:05So, what is the question?
12:07The main question is that who is doing the investigation and whom they are reporting to.
12:12The same people who are accused, that is UP government and central government, which is the party in this, their
12:18subordinate are the member in charge of all the fund management.
12:21And now, where then all these aggregators seek justice, when the accused, investigator and judgment is being pronounced as the
12:30same people?
12:30Aren't they fooling the people?
12:33Aren't they or this excise is a sham?
12:36So, you are saying the excite is a sham?
12:40Just one line.
12:41We are not in the business of doing politics over religion.
12:44So, whether we gain or lose, we are going to raise the right questions as a responsible opposition.
12:52So, there is no...
12:54Okay.
12:55I've heard you, sir.
12:56I've heard you, sir.
12:57I've heard you.
12:59You're saying you're not politicizing religion, but sir, just a minute.
13:03It is an election here.
13:05Professor Raji, you want to respond that at the end of the day, isn't this the same question I put
13:11to Mr. Sethi?
13:12Hugely embarrassing.
13:13For all those who speak about the politics of Hindutva, the Prime Minister himself speaks,
13:18na khaunga, na khaane dunga.
13:20And now you've got right in the Ram Temple, donations, theft.
13:25What can be a bigger travesty?
13:31Professor Aagi.
13:36Rajdeep, at the very outset, I must confess that it has taintes the image of all of us,
13:49and it has given the opportunity to speak against the Hindutva forces or those who have engaged with the politics
14:00of Hindutva.
14:01Certainly, yes.
14:01Okay, sir.
14:02I'll come to you to get your...
14:05I won't escape from this.
14:05We're having a bit of a problem with the audio.
14:07I'll try and get it fixed.
14:08Ashutosh, you know, you've heard the first few voices.
14:11Some are saying...
14:12Yes.
14:12Can you hold the government accountable for what happens in a temple trust?
14:16Ultimately, a temple trust was set up with administrators who reportedly were autonomous.
14:23Champat Rai team were autonomous.
14:25Therefore, you can't blame the Yogi Adityanath government, which has ordered an SIT that has led to arrest,
14:30or the Narendra Modi government, which sits at the center.
14:33The opposition and other anti-Hindutva groups are blaming the governments of UP and Delhi.
14:40Is that fair or is that sensationalism?
14:44See, Rajdeep, first of all, let me understand this.
14:48And it's very important for a viewer to also understand this.
14:51The fundamental issue is this issue has thoroughly exposed the three wings of the Sangha Parivar.
14:58Three wings of the Sangha Parivar.
15:00Neither the Modi government can absolve itself, nor the Yogi government can absolve itself, nor the RSS can absolve itself.
15:08Why am I saying so?
15:09Because the trust was created by the Supreme Court order by the central government.
15:16So why the central government till this date has not disbanded this trust?
15:21For a fair investigation.
15:23So the responsibility lies with the Modi government.
15:26Secondly, once the theft came into the picture, what the Yogi government has done,
15:31who is known for the bulldozer justice and the encounter justice,
15:35instead of going for a registration of an FIR immediately and arresting people, taking custody and asking questions,
15:42they have gone, they have put the entire judicial system, the criminal system on its head by appointing an SIT.
15:49SIT has no jurisdiction.
15:50So they took almost 20 days.
15:53So Yogi government can't absolve itself.
15:56And if anybody is saying that this trust was not made by the RSS people,
15:59who is Champatra, who is Gopal Rao, who is Anil Mishra,
16:03all of them are RSS appointee and are very senior members of the RSS family.
16:08They have stepped down.
16:09No, no, but they have stepped down.
16:10The government will say they have stepped down.
16:12The government will say the SIT investigation has already resulted in arrests and detentions.
16:19RSS, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, if you take it that tomorrow onwards, if any theft happens anywhere,
16:27first no FIR will be registered, first the SIT will investigate,
16:31and once the SIT finds something only, then the FIR will be registered,
16:35then what kind of system are we leading at?
16:38Since it belongs to the RSS family, that is why no house is bulldozed.
16:43Nobody's, no encounter has happened.
16:45Just imagine if instead of some people belonging to the RSS,
16:48had belonged to some other political party or some other thought of process,
16:52by now these people would have been arrested and the houses would have been bulldozed.
16:55This is what has happened in the UP.
16:56So the Modi government can't absolve itself, Yogi government can't absolve itself,
16:59and the RSS can't absolve itself.
17:01It's not an embarrassment.
17:03It's basically normalization of shamelessness.
17:07Okay, those are very strong words.
17:08Sangeet Ragi, you want to respond to that normalization of shamelessness?
17:16Rajdeep, at the very outset, I confessed it,
17:19that it had hurt millions of swanksevaks.
17:22But RSS has always a tendency of taking time.
17:27It first got confirmed that, yes, the people are involved in.
17:33And once they confirmed, it was discussed in the Haridwar meeting of the Viswindu Parishat.
17:39The Viswindu Parishat came out with a statement that there should be, you know,
17:45investigation should be fast-tracked.
17:48And those who are responsible for it, the responsibility and accountability should be fixed.
17:56And the FIR was the beginning of it.
18:00So, the RSS and the VHP will decide on the timeline?
18:03No, no.
18:03Sangeet Ragi, RSS and VHP will decide on the timeline of an FIR that they will conduct their internal investigation.
18:10Only then an FIR will be filed.
18:12If this was some other group, as Ashutosh says, their houses, he says, would have been bulldozed in UP.
18:19I don't want to drag Ashutosh into the controversy.
18:25But do you remember, Rajdeep, vote for a scam?
18:29The cassette swat with you and also my friend Ashutosh.
18:36You took time to confirm whether the audio, video, you know, was clear or not.
18:45It was your correspondent, Rajdeep.
18:48No, no.
18:48How can you compare a journalistic investigation, sir, with due regard?
18:52You can't compare a journalistic investigation with what has happened here.
18:56Criminality involving theft in Iraq.
18:58No, no.
18:58My point is, according to Ashutosh, should the Yogi government first have put an FIR
19:03and then started the SIT, according to him, is a sham or according to the Samajwadi party
19:09is a sham to protect the real big fish.
19:12You don't agree?
19:13I don't agree.
19:14I don't agree.
19:16You remember what Samajwadi party had said?
19:19Samajwadi party first demanded for investigation.
19:23When SIT was constituted, then Akhles Jado made the statement.
19:29It is on record, Rajdeep.
19:31Akhles Jado said that,
19:43The idea behind was not to get to the truth.
19:48The whole idea of Akhles Jado was to mess up the whole issue to create political capital out of it
19:54for the 2027 election.
19:57As far as RSS is concerned, how does RSS and the Modi government come into picture
20:03or even the Yogi government come into picture?
20:07It was the trust which was autonomous and which was managing the fund.
20:11I completely agree with all of you that Champat Raj should have resigned at the very beginning.
20:18The moment he had come across about the scams, it was his responsibility that he should have resigned from the
20:28trust.
20:28I completely agree with you on this issue.
20:32But to say that entire investigation is a sham, is a political statement and Ashutosh's personal venom against the RSS
20:40and the Sangaparivar.
20:42You know, right from the beginning…
20:44Okay, Ashutosh, let him respond.
20:47Okay, you're saying it is personal venom.
20:49Ashutosh, quick response and then I want to go to Rahul Verma.
20:52The truth of the matter is this has also polarized people.
20:55Hasn't this issue polarized people?
20:56Depending on your ideology, you are deciding whether this investigation is a sham or not.
21:02See, Rajdeep, the fundamental Indian jurisprudence and judicial criminal system is very clear.
21:09Whether the theft has happened in the Ram Mandir or the theft has happened in your house and my house.
21:14The first response from the state is to lodge an FIR.
21:17And then the investigation takes people in custody.
21:20Now, if you are trying to normalize this, that's every time, everywhere there is a theft.
21:26First, there will be an SIT.
21:28And then SIT will give the report.
21:30And then the FIR will be registered.
21:33Then within the span of 15-20 days, all the evidences will be gone.
21:38So, who will take the responsibility that on 7th of June, this matter came into the picture
21:43and 20 days were given to the culprits and accused to destroy all the evidences?
21:49Why the police did not take custody of the entire situation,
21:54had collected all the evidences immediately,
21:56had raided their houses, has organized all the money that's gone into their pockets?
22:02Why did it not happen?
22:04So, you have given enough time for the evidences to destroy it?
22:08Okay, you're saying,
22:10Sangeet Ragi, you want to respond again.
22:12You see, the whole way, the very fact that the Yogi Adityanath government's SIT
22:17is in charge of an investigation involving people closely associated with the Sangh Paribar
22:22clearly leads to question marks.
22:24Does it not?
22:24That will the investigation be genuinely free and fair?
22:29Rajdeep, why it started?
22:32Why the SIT was constituted?
22:35Earlier, it was only the allegations.
22:37There was no substantial proof beforehand.
22:40And if you don't have any substantial proof beforehand,
22:43only on the basis of allegations, you cannot file an FIR.
22:48Once the allegations...
22:48Earlier, there were allegations of land grab also.
22:50So, more than two years ago, there were allegations of land grab.
22:53And nobody followed those up also.
22:56Surely, the government should have followed them up.
22:58You are asking journalists to follow it up,
23:00political parties to follow it up.
23:02Who is to follow it up?
23:03Rajdeep, can I come in?
23:05No, no, let him respond.
23:07Let Sangeet respond.
23:09Rajdeep, Aam Admi Party, Sanjay Singh,
23:13had the documents with him since 2021.
23:17What was he doing?
23:18He should have gone to...
23:21Suppose, I concede that given the BJP government
23:27in the state of Uttar Pradesh,
23:29the police probably would not have admitted the case
23:32and registered the FIR,
23:33except for this premise for a moment.
23:36You have a battery of lawyers.
23:38You have the entire ecosystem at work.
23:41You could have gone to, on every second issue,
23:44approached the court and the Supreme Court
23:47and the court have always,
23:49you know, I wouldn't be saying that,
23:52favoured you, but not disfavoured you.
23:55So you could have gone with those documents,
23:58the court would have taken cognizance of the fact
24:01and the FIR could have been registered.
24:03You remember the Bofors scam.
24:06The Bofors scam came and the allegations was there.
24:10How the FIR was registered?
24:13Was it the government which went for registering?
24:16Or was it the party which went for registering?
24:18No.
24:19It was on the instruction of the court
24:21that the FIR was registered.
24:23Again, I am saying...
24:24So you are saying that even in the allegations of land grab,
24:28there should have been an attempt to go to the court
24:30rather than only make the allegations in the public domain.
24:34Ashutosh, a quick response.
24:35Let me widen it after that.
24:36You see, this is at the heart of the issue.
24:38The heart of the issue, Ashutosh.
24:40Ashutosh, let me expose what Sangeet Raghi is saying
24:44and what the UP government has done.
24:45When the land scam came in 2021-22
24:49and SIT was formed,
24:52SIT investigated,
24:54nobody knows what happened.
24:55No FIR was registered.
24:58No arrest was made.
24:59And you know what happened?
25:00The 1.28 hectare land was bought by 2 crore.
25:05And within 10 minutes,
25:06it was registered for 18.5 crores.
25:10It's an open and shut case.
25:12And the name who's involved was...
25:13Sangeet Raghi is saying that
25:14Sanjay Singh and others should have gone to the court.
25:17No, no.
25:18According to Sangeet Raghi,
25:20why didn't those who exposed this go to the court?
25:24No, no.
25:25Because it will go for another 10 years,
25:2820 years.
25:29And by the time,
25:30the loot will continue in the Ram Ram Ram Ram temple.
25:32So you continue loot.
25:34That's what I'm saying.
25:35It's a normalization of shamelessness.
25:37Nothing else.
25:38They are trying to normalize shamelessness.
25:40Openly, brazenly, arrogantly.
25:42Look at the arrogance.
25:45Okay, I've heard both sides.
25:46Rahul Verma,
25:47you know, give us a perspective.
25:49As a political scientist,
25:50as an academic,
25:51we've seen the way
25:52the Ram Mandir movement
25:53has been part of the central
25:55ideological plank of the BJP.
25:57This is what was responsible for its rise.
26:00Now you've got a situation
26:01where the same Ram Mandir,
26:03which is spoken of in terms of civilizational pride or justice,
26:06is now being seen as an example
26:09of the great Indian corruption
26:11or the great Indian robbery.
26:14Thank you, Rajdeep.
26:15Just to echo what everyone has said,
26:18in some ways,
26:19this episode is embarrassing,
26:22to say the least,
26:23for BJP.
26:24It might,
26:25in the future,
26:27given how it develops,
26:28because it is sort of like
26:30closely linked to BJP's,
26:32not just ideological plank,
26:33but something what BJP
26:35has been basically claiming,
26:37that unlike other parties,
26:39you cannot directly sort of like
26:41call up like
26:42allegations of
26:45financial irregularities
26:47and corruption
26:47against their highest leadership.
26:49So yes,
26:50it is still possible
26:51that their highest leadership
26:52might not be involved in it,
26:54but something like
26:55what happened during UPA era,
26:57the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh
26:59at that time
26:59basically did not intervene
27:02at the right time
27:03when certain allegations
27:04were made.
27:05And it led to sort of
27:06disaster of UPA in 2014
27:08and UPA carried
27:10that bad legitimacy
27:11for a very, very
27:12long period of time.
27:13And so I don't know
27:15what will happen in 2027
27:16or thereafter,
27:18but if BJP's top leadership
27:21and RSA's top leadership
27:22does not act on this,
27:24I think it doesn't have to do
27:26with the core ideological voters
27:27or polarized debate.
27:29I think middle-of-the-road voter,
27:31which basically has voted
27:33for BJP in the last few years,
27:35has now started asking
27:37these questions.
27:37And so the worry
27:38is those fence-sitters
27:40which you had gained
27:41in the last four or five years,
27:43they might start
27:44basically walking away from you.
27:46The second point
27:47that I want to make here is,
27:49and I think like,
27:50not as sort of like law
27:52or jurisprudence point,
27:53simple fact is,
27:54if there are serious allegations,
27:56you do fire an FIR, right?
27:58FIR's full form
28:00is first information report.
28:01And if the government
28:03does not do certain things like that,
28:06you can't basically wash away
28:08at this moment
28:09that this is not the responsibility
28:10of Yogi government
28:11or Modi government.
28:13Every act of crime
28:15is a responsibility
28:16of the government of the day.
28:18The buck stops there.
28:19They have to intervene
28:21and see what seems to be unfolding.
28:23It's not just the Ram Mandir thing,
28:24right?
28:25This moment,
28:26like earlier allegations
28:27against the BJP
28:28was that the party
28:30might be sort of like
28:31cozoing up
28:32with certain businessmen
28:34and making them benefit.
28:35Now, basically,
28:37the fire is encircling them.
28:39Now their own sort of like
28:41leaders are being implicated.
28:43You also saw the report
28:44of Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh
28:47and how his family members
28:48were involved in land deals.
28:50And so now,
28:51like for 10 years,
28:53I think you would not
28:55be able to name
28:56like direct top leaders
28:57of BJP and RSS
28:59getting involved
29:00in financial irregularities.
29:02This is a moment
29:03if BJP does not act,
29:05it will find it difficult
29:06going forward.
29:08We've had leaders in Goa,
29:11all of whom have been
29:11accused of land scams.
29:13I want to widen the debate
29:14for a moment.
29:15Rahul Ishar wants to step in.
29:16But before that,
29:17I want the viewers
29:18to take a look
29:19because while we're focusing
29:20on Ram Mandir,
29:21remember for millions
29:22of devotees
29:23and offering at any temple
29:24is an act of faith.
29:25But from alleged fake
29:27ghee and silk dupattas
29:28at Thirupati
29:29to silver offerings
29:30at Vaishno Devi,
29:31missing valuables
29:33at the Padmana Swami temple
29:36in Thiruvananthapuram,
29:38there have been a series
29:38of controversies
29:39in recent times
29:40that have raised questions
29:41over the management
29:42of India's sacred spaces.
29:45Take a look.
29:55Every temple
29:56begins with faith.
30:03A folded hand,
30:04a whispered prayer,
30:06an offering made with devotion
30:08with the belief
30:09that it reaches the divine.
30:15But what happens
30:17when that faith
30:18becomes someone's business
30:20and when devotion
30:21is exploited?
30:23The latest controversy,
30:26the Ram Mandir.
30:27Donations made in faith
30:28siphoned off.
30:30An SIT probe,
30:31an FIR naming eight people
30:33and now arrests
30:34have followed.
30:35But this is not
30:36the first time.
30:38Just weeks before
30:38the Ram Mandir Rao,
30:40Sabrimala's alleged
30:41gold loot
30:42had already sparked
30:43a national controversy.
30:45Gold plating missing
30:46in the sanctum sinctorum,
30:48sparking anger
30:48and shock
30:49among Arya part devotees.
30:50The Keralam High Court
30:52stepped in.
30:53SIT probe continues.
30:57Thirupati.
30:58Not gold,
30:59not cash,
30:59but the sacred
31:01prasadam itself.
31:02Investigators allege
31:03adulterated ghee,
31:04made using palm oil
31:06and other substitutes,
31:07entered the Ladoo
31:08supply chain
31:09for nearly five years.
31:11Nearly 68 lakh kilograms
31:13worth around
31:14250 crore rupees.
31:15A CBI-led SIT
31:17has charge-sheeted
31:1836 accused.
31:20The ED continues
31:21to investigate
31:21the money trade.
31:24And another
31:24Thirupati controversy.
31:26This time,
31:27the temple hundi.
31:28CCTV footage
31:29surfaced
31:29showing donation theft
31:31during counting.
31:32BJP leaders
31:33alleged
31:33over 100 crore rupees
31:35were siphoned
31:36from devotees' donations.
31:38The allegations
31:38are contested
31:39and the case
31:40remains under investigation.
31:42The question
31:43did not end there.
31:49The same script
31:51repeats
31:51at Vaishnu Devi.
31:52Devotees offered silver
31:54as an expression
31:55of faith,
31:56but testing
31:56allegedly found
31:57the offerings
31:58contained
31:59just 5-6% silver.
32:01The rest,
32:02cheaper metals.
32:04And even at the
32:06world's richest temple,
32:07at Sri Padmanabhan
32:08Swami temple,
32:09questions were raised
32:10over missing valuables.
32:12Around 70-80 grams
32:13of gold,
32:14the sacred
32:15Vairanama ornament,
32:16the allegations
32:17that a gold ceremonial lamp
32:19had been replaced
32:20with a lower-value substitute.
32:22Police flagged
32:23serious security lapses.
32:24The questions remain
32:25who was responsible.
32:30Different temples,
32:31different states,
32:32same betrayal.
32:34Faith offered,
32:35trust stolen.
32:36The loss
32:36did not measured
32:37in crores,
32:38but in broken devotion.
32:39The question now,
32:41who will protect faith
32:42from those
32:43meant to protect it?
32:45Bureau Report,
32:46India Today.
32:48So as you can see,
32:49Rahul Ishwar,
32:50it's not just
32:51the Ram Mandir.
32:52It's obviously
32:52far more politically fraught,
32:54but there have been
32:55several instances.
32:56What then
32:56tells,
32:57should convince
32:58any of us
32:59that temples
32:59are above greed
33:00or temples
33:01are above corruption?
33:02The fact is
33:03that they are part
33:03of this society.
33:04Why should we give them
33:05some special
33:06exalted space?
33:07They are turning out
33:08to be just like
33:10anyone else,
33:11dare I say,
33:12involved in corruption.
33:14What makes them
33:15so special?
33:16As a person
33:17who belongs
33:18to many temple
33:19movements,
33:20I feel ashamed
33:22that some of us
33:23or some of our
33:24people have been
33:25involved in such things,
33:26whether it is
33:26Sri Ramaswami temple,
33:28whether it is
33:28Shabarimala,
33:29there has been
33:29other allegations
33:30to our Ram temple.
33:31That's the reason
33:32why more accountability
33:33and transparency
33:34should be there.
33:35See, that's a must.
33:36That's the reason
33:36why upon my petition,
33:38Travancur Devasam
33:38instituted
33:39right to information
33:40in Shabarimala.
33:41So that at least
33:42we can track
33:43how the money
33:44is moving.
33:46And second,
33:46we need more transparency,
33:48perhaps more CCTVs.
33:49There is an issue.
33:50Let us be honest about it.
33:51And as Hindus,
33:52we should be honest
33:53about it that
33:54there is some amount
33:55of huge money
33:56that is coming
33:56to temples
33:57and we need
33:57better management systems.
33:59And I hope
34:00all organizations,
34:00BJP and Congress
34:01or Samajwadi Party
34:03can come together
34:04in creating
34:05a better system
34:05for all temples
34:06because there is
34:07a systemic issue
34:08that is at play
34:09and we need
34:10to recognize that.
34:11And that recognition
34:11is extremely important.
34:13Rather than
34:13it is being used
34:14as a political football,
34:16there is a systemic
34:16temple management
34:17inefficiency
34:18at the core.
34:19Even in Kerala,
34:20I have seen it up close,
34:21there are such temples
34:22in Tamil Nadu.
34:23So a better system
34:24that should be there.
34:25And one more suggestion
34:26is in Kerala,
34:27Shabarimala is monitored
34:28directly by high court
34:29and the court monitored probe
34:31would bring more confidence
34:33in people.
34:34So court monitored probes
34:35should be there
34:35and lack of registration
34:37of FAR
34:37definitely creates
34:38some kind of suspicion.
34:40You know,
34:40I have always fought
34:41with Shashutosh
34:41in all the matters.
34:43I am a right-wing activist.
34:44But as he rightly points out,
34:45the lack of registration
34:46of FAR
34:46can create
34:47some sort of suspicion.
34:48Why is it not being done?
34:49That's the usual
34:50standard procedure.
34:51So SIT should not be a cover.
34:53And this thing
34:54should be dealt
34:55very honestly
34:55and I hope
34:56we should take it
34:58to a logical conclusion
34:59and the result
34:59should be a better
35:00temple management system
35:01where there is
35:02transparency,
35:03accountability
35:03and some kind
35:04of judicial oversight.
35:06You know,
35:07there is temple management
35:08Rajat Sethi
35:09but there is also
35:09the question
35:10and this I take
35:11from what Rahul Verma
35:12said,
35:12the issue of cronyism.
35:13One of the big charges
35:14that the Modi government
35:15has faced
35:16from the opposition
35:17in the last 12 years
35:18is that they favor
35:19select industrialists
35:20and this is a classic
35:21example of crony capitalism.
35:22Now the charge will come
35:24that they favor
35:26groups within
35:27the Sangh Parivar ecosystem
35:28and allow them,
35:30dare one say,
35:30to get away with it,
35:31particularly in the case
35:32of the Ram Mandir.
35:33Will this charge,
35:34given that the fact
35:35that the Prime Minister
35:36when he came to power
35:37said,
35:37na khaunga na khaane dunga
35:38in August of 2014,
35:40does this hit at his
35:41credibility in a way
35:42and does that therefore
35:43make this,
35:44as I said earlier also,
35:46politically far more
35:47sensitive?
35:50So, Rajdeep ji,
35:51in my opinion,
35:53Prime Minister Modi
35:54and Chief Minister Yogi
35:55Adityanath,
35:56since they,
35:57you know,
35:57that fundamental
35:59question that,
36:00or fundamental
36:00position
36:01of not having
36:02a family
36:03sort of,
36:03you know,
36:04gives them
36:05an exalted status
36:06in their society
36:06because people
36:07do not doubt
36:08their intentions,
36:09they always,
36:10you know,
36:11stand taller
36:12when it comes to
36:13all others
36:14who have families
36:15and have incentives
36:16to actually engage
36:17in malpractices.
36:18So,
36:19the trust
36:19that the people
36:20bestow on these
36:21leaders is far,
36:22far more deeper.
36:23And this is where
36:24I think
36:25Prime Minister Modi
36:26individually
36:26and even the
36:27Chief Minister
36:28Yogi ji,
36:29they will themselves
36:32can still stay
36:33away
36:34and stay distant
36:34from all these
36:35controversies
36:36provided they take
36:37strict actions
36:39against those
36:39who have been
36:40accused of it.
36:40But is this
36:40an example
36:41of cronyism?
36:42Is this an
36:42example,
36:43Rajat,
36:43of cronyism?
36:44What Rahul Varma
36:45says that,
36:46you know,
36:46there are a select
36:47few who are seen
36:48to get undue
36:50benefits and maybe
36:51people at the
36:51Ram Mandir thought
36:52they could get
36:53away with it
36:53as a result
36:54because they
36:54thought there
36:55would be someone
36:55out there
36:56within the
36:56ecosystem
36:57protecting them.
36:59No,
36:59I think it's
37:00just the web
37:00of trust
37:01that existed
37:03which sort
37:04of superseded
37:05the SOPs
37:06that could have
37:08ensured that
37:08no such
37:09breach was
37:10possible.
37:11This trust
37:12and this trusted
37:13network,
37:14I mean,
37:14nobody is saying
37:14that Champatra
37:15himself would
37:16have been
37:16involved in
37:17corrupt practices.
37:17I mean,
37:17of course,
37:18it's part of
37:18investigation also.
37:20But largely,
37:21it was these
37:22set of individuals
37:22who are just
37:24part of the
37:24larger society.
37:25I mean,
37:25look at these
37:25faces.
37:26None of them
37:26are like
37:27exalted faces
37:28or faces who
37:29are wielding
37:29a lot of
37:30political power.
37:30The entire
37:31power that was
37:32accruing to
37:32them was largely
37:33because they
37:34were associated
37:34with the
37:35leaders who
37:35still remain
37:36above any
37:37suspicion.
37:38But these
37:38set of
37:39people who
37:39are part
37:39of most
37:40of the
37:40organizations
37:40around not
37:42just the
37:43BJP RSS
37:43but the
37:44larger fold
37:44of the
37:45society.
37:45And if
37:46there is
37:47corruption which
37:48goes so deep
37:49in our society
37:49that it
37:50doesn't even
37:50leave such
37:51places as
37:52places of
37:52worship,
37:54then this
37:54says a lot
37:55about our
37:56society as
37:57well.
37:57And that
37:57requires reflection
37:58that what is
37:59needed that we
38:00all can rise
38:01up beyond
38:03So you
38:04don't think
38:05Rajat,
38:05you don't
38:06think there
38:06is a
38:06credibility
38:07hit here.
38:08You don't
38:08see a
38:08credibility
38:09hit.
38:09It can
38:10be passed
38:10on to
38:11a
38:11Champat
38:12Rai,
38:12to other
38:12officials at
38:13a lower
38:14level.
38:15Those are
38:15the top.
38:16And this
38:16is a
38:17contrast with
38:17the UPA
38:18years.
38:18In the
38:18UPA
38:19years,
38:20Commonwealth
38:20Games
38:20camp,
38:21immediately
38:21it was
38:22Suresh
38:22Kalmadi
38:23who was
38:23made the
38:24target.
38:24Do you
38:24believe this
38:25is very
38:25different in
38:25that sense?
38:28See, in
38:29the UPA
38:29time, it
38:30was the
38:30family itself
38:31which was
38:32holding the
38:33reins so
38:34tightly that
38:35everybody
38:35believed that
38:36it is the
38:36family apparatus
38:37of the
38:37Gandhi family
38:38which is
38:38trying to
38:39do the
38:39DLF
38:40deals and
38:40all of
38:40those things.
38:41And there
38:41was just
38:41no accountability
38:42at all.
38:43Here also,
38:44if there are
38:45no actions
38:45which follow
38:46up these
38:46allegations,
38:47people will
38:47start gradually,
38:48they will
38:49start losing
38:49trust.
38:50But if the
38:51actions are
38:51strong enough
38:52and proportionate
38:53to the crime
38:53that has been
38:54committed,
38:54then I
38:55believe the
38:55trust is a
38:56malleable
38:57thing.
38:57It keeps
38:57getting
38:57reinforced
38:58with every
38:59action or
39:01commission of
39:01these actions.
39:02So I
39:03would see
39:04the proof
39:05lies in the
39:06pudding.
39:06How does
39:06the Yogi
39:07government and
39:08how does
39:08Prime Minister
39:09Modi himself,
39:10because we
39:10need to keep
39:11in mind,
39:11it was the
39:12Prime Minister
39:13who had
39:13sent some
39:14of his
39:14trusted
39:14lieutenants
39:15to go out
39:15and do
39:15the temple
39:17management and
39:18the temple
39:18construction
39:19affairs also.
39:20It was
39:20those
39:20bureaucrats
39:21which were
39:21much above
39:23any order
39:23of suspicion
39:24and they
39:24were the
39:25ones who
39:25were sent
39:25in because
39:26Prime Minister
39:26realized that
39:27this is a touchy
39:28topic and he
39:28has to ensure
39:29that property
39:30of the highest
39:30order is
39:31enforced.
39:32But again,
39:32this is where
39:33even Rupendra
39:33Mishra,
39:34when he was
39:34talking to
39:35the India
39:35Today group,
39:36he acknowledged
39:36that all
39:38possible standard
39:39operating procedures
39:40were kept
39:41aside,
39:42simple tests,
39:43simple things
39:44that could have
39:44avoided such a
39:45situation,
39:46such an
39:46embarrassing
39:46situation,
39:47were completely
39:48thrown away.
39:48And this
39:49is where
39:50trust
39:50tried to
39:50supersede
39:51But if
39:52you take
39:52political
39:53benefit from
39:54the Ram
39:54Mandir,
39:54you have
39:55to be ready
39:55to take
39:55the flack.
39:56If you
39:57take political
39:57benefit,
39:58you have
39:58to be ready
39:59to take
39:59the flack.
39:59That's why
40:00the point is,
40:01see,
40:01BJP did
40:02not gain
40:03on construction
40:04of Ram
40:04Temple even
40:05in 2024.
40:06So I don't
40:07think it's a
40:07rewarding mechanism.
40:08People tend
40:08to know that
40:09religion and
40:10politics has
40:10to be
40:10separated.
40:11They did
40:11punish
40:12those who
40:13stopped
40:14due justice
40:15to the
40:16Ramdala
40:16Temple,
40:17but they
40:17did not
40:18reward people
40:18who built
40:19it because
40:20it was part
40:20of the
40:20duty.
40:21Your existence
40:22was synonymous
40:23to fighting
40:24for this
40:25movement and
40:25you did
40:26that.
40:26So BJP
40:27was not
40:27rewarded
40:28in 2024,
40:29but BJP
40:30can be
40:30punished if
40:31they are
40:31seeing lackadical
40:32in their
40:32approach of
40:33punishing
40:33the
40:33culprits.
40:34And so
40:35far,
40:35if BJP
40:35and the
40:36leadership of
40:37the BJP
40:37stands at
40:38an arm's
40:38length with
40:39the investigation
40:40and see
40:41that justice
40:42is meted
40:42out,
40:43I don't
40:43see a
40:43political
40:43ramifications
40:44as such.
40:48Pradeep
40:48Bati
40:48respond to
40:50Rajat
40:51Sethi.
40:51He says,
40:51look,
40:52if action
40:52is taken,
40:53there will
40:53be no
40:54political
40:54ramifications.
40:55Yogi
40:55Adityanath
40:56has already
40:56come out
40:57and said
40:58the opposition
40:59should stop
40:59playing politics
41:00with this
41:01entire issue.
41:03Let me
41:04start with
41:05this,
41:06Razdeep,
41:07that BJP
41:07spokesperson
41:08are not
41:09attending these
41:09debates.
41:10why are
41:11they running
41:11from these
41:12debates?
41:13Are they
41:14the fugitive?
41:15What is the
41:16reason why
41:16they do
41:16that?
41:17They claim
41:17to be the
41:18flag bearer
41:19of Hindut.
41:20And coming
41:20to what?
41:21They say
41:21they want the
41:22investigation to
41:23take place
41:23first.
41:24They say
41:24the BJP
41:25spokesperson
41:26say they
41:26want the
41:27investigation
41:27to be
41:28completed.
41:29They don't
41:29want to
41:30make this
41:30a TV
41:30debate at
41:31the moment.
41:32They jump
41:33every
41:33corner of
41:34the country
41:35and outside
41:35also when
41:36it comes to
41:37any other
41:38matter.
41:38But here
41:39they want
41:39to wait
41:40for it.
41:41Let it
41:41be.
41:42The battle
41:42of Uttar
41:43Pradesh
41:43ultimately
41:44revolves around
41:45the public
41:45perception
41:46of whatever
41:46the minimum
41:46support
41:47remains with
41:48a drastic
41:49disruptive
41:49and hatred
41:50policy
41:51by both
41:52the state
41:52and the
41:52central
41:53government
41:53of BJP.
41:54Indeed,
41:54there is a
41:55false propaganda
41:56surrounded by
41:57the BJP
41:57version of
41:58Hindut.
41:59Let me
41:59expose them
42:00with three
42:01prominent
42:01recent events.
42:02number one,
42:04the mismanagement
42:05and the
42:05hidden stories
42:06you must have
42:08heard about
42:08it and the
42:09public disconnect.
42:11The disrespect
42:12of the
42:12honorable
42:13Shankar Chahal,
42:13we have seen
42:14that of course
42:15the issues
42:16raised by him
42:17are totally
42:18exposing CM
42:19of UP and
42:20the blatant
42:21financial corruption
42:22and the fun
42:23theft that has
42:24happened in
42:25Bhagavan Shri
42:26Ram's
42:26Mandir in
42:27Ayodhya is
42:27a desperate
42:29attempt to
42:30cover up
42:30these events.
42:32Yogi
42:33Adityanath
42:33is not
42:34doing
42:34anything
42:35to really
42:37dig out
42:37of what
42:38has happened.
42:39He is
42:39just covering
42:39up whatever
42:41has happened,
42:42whatever funds
42:43they have
42:45diluted.
42:46Will you
42:47make it
42:47there for
42:47your issue?
42:48No, no,
42:49Mr. Pradeep
42:49Bhati,
42:50therefore,
42:50are you
42:50going to
42:51make this
42:51an issue
42:52to target
42:52Yogi
42:52Adityanath?
42:53Is it
42:53about Yogi
42:54Adityanath
42:54and Narendra
42:55Modi or
42:56is it
42:56about ensuring
42:57first that
42:57the faith
42:58of millions
42:58of devotees
42:59is restored?
43:01Definitely
43:02the faith
43:02of millions
43:03of Indians
43:04should be
43:05restored.
43:05But how
43:06it will be
43:06restored?
43:07It will
43:07be restored
43:07only when
43:08the proper
43:10investigation
43:10is done.
43:11But if
43:12the investigation
43:12is shamed,
43:13as I said
43:14earlier also,
43:15that when
43:15the accused
43:16is doing
43:17the investigation
43:17and they
43:18are also,
43:19and at the
43:19same time
43:20they will
43:20pass the
43:20judgment
43:21also,
43:21that who
43:22is accused
43:22and who
43:22is not,
43:23and those
43:24same members
43:25will decide.
43:25Who is the
43:26accused?
43:27No, no, no,
43:28no, no,
43:28Pradip Bhatti,
43:29who is the
43:30accused who
43:30is doing
43:30the investigation?
43:31Who is the
43:32accused who
43:32is doing
43:33the investigation?
43:34Accused are
43:35the members
43:35in the
43:36trust and
43:37the trust
43:37members don't,
43:39please read
43:39the entire
43:41list of the
43:42trust members.
43:43They are
43:43people from
43:45the UP
43:45government,
43:46they are
43:46people from
43:48the central
43:49government.
43:50So they
43:50are doing
43:50the investigation
43:51because the
43:52report is
43:52being submitted
43:53to the
43:55home secretary
43:56of Uttar
43:57Pradesh and
43:57he is also
43:57the member
43:58of trust.
44:00So how
44:00can you
44:00trust them?
44:01So this
44:02kind of
44:02sham investigation
44:03will lead
44:04to nowhere
44:04and Yogi
44:06Aditnat will
44:07pay the
44:07price and
44:08Uttar Pradesh
44:09as well as
44:10the entire
44:10BJP will
44:11pay the
44:11price,
44:12whatever they
44:12have done
44:13to all the
44:13Hindu devotees
44:15on the
44:16name of...
44:16You made
44:17your point.
44:18Vinodji,
44:18Pradeepji,
44:19I have heard
44:19you.
44:20Pradeepji,
44:20I have heard
44:21you.
44:21You are
44:21saying...
44:22He is doing
44:22nothing for
44:22Hindus.
44:23I have heard
44:24you, sir.
44:24Okay, I have
44:25heard you.
44:26You know,
44:26Ashutosh,
44:27this is an
44:28election year.
44:29Even in
44:30normal time,
44:31this would
44:31have become
44:31a big issue,
44:32but in an
44:32election year,
44:33it acquires
44:34another dimension
44:35in a way.
44:36Do you
44:37believe?
44:37Rajat said he
44:38believes it
44:39will not touch
44:39the credibility
44:40of Yogi
44:42Aditnat or
44:42Prime Minister
44:43Modi so long
44:44as they act.
44:45People want
44:45the government
44:46of the day
44:46to act.
44:47He is trying
44:48to draw a
44:48distinction
44:49between UPA
44:50years and
44:51NDA years.
44:52He claims the
44:52Prime Minister
44:53then,
44:54Manmohan Singh
44:54didn't act
44:55and thereby
44:56suffered a
44:56blowback.
44:57How do you
44:57compare it
44:58to UPA
44:58and NDA?
45:00See,
45:01Rajdeep,
45:02it's a much
45:02deeper issue.
45:04Forget about
45:05electoral politics.
45:06It has
45:07damaged
45:09BJP,
45:09RSS,
45:10RSS,
45:11plan,
45:12ideological
45:13mooring,
45:13and why
45:14I'm saying
45:14so,
45:15this is the
45:15third in a
45:16row which
45:17is hitting
45:18Hindutva,
45:19denting
45:20Hindutva's
45:20image.
45:21If you
45:22remember on
45:2210th of
45:23May,
45:23when suddenly
45:252025,
45:26when suddenly
45:27ceasefire was
45:28announced,
45:29and I'm
45:29quite,
45:30I quite
45:31go and
45:31scan the
45:32right-wing
45:32pages,
45:33there was
45:34such a
45:34strong
45:35disapproval
45:36of that
45:36action,
45:36even by
45:37the right-wing
45:38Hindutva
45:39supporters,
45:39because they
45:40thought this
45:41is the
45:41government
45:41which will
45:42take the
45:42POK,
45:43and then
45:43suddenly you
45:44decide a
45:45ceasefire,
45:46and then it
45:47was followed
45:47by the
45:48UGC
45:48guidelines.
45:49UGC
45:50guidelines was
45:51another hit,
45:52another dent
45:52to the
45:53Hindutva,
45:53and this
45:53is the
45:53third one,
45:54and this
45:55is the
45:55most dangerous
45:56one,
45:56because if
45:57ceasefire
45:59damaged the
45:59Hindu,
46:00the nationalism
46:01issue,
46:02this is
46:02the core of
46:03the Hindutva,
46:04that is
46:04Ram temple.
46:05So,
46:06whether it
46:06reflects into
46:08people's
46:09mandate,
46:10because today,
46:11these days,
46:11elections are
46:12great management.
46:13So,
46:14I'm not
46:14commenting on
46:15that,
46:15but on the
46:16issue of
46:16ideological
46:17planks,
46:18on the
46:18issue of
46:18nationalism,
46:19on the
46:19issue of
46:20Hindutva,
46:20it has
46:21certainly
46:21dented,
46:22and it
46:22has certainly
46:24created a
46:24kind of
46:26disaffection
46:26among the
46:27people itself,
46:27because if
46:28people are
46:29watching and
46:29seeing that
46:30if Ram
46:30Mandir donation
46:31is not
46:33secure,
46:34then where
46:34where and
46:35what can
46:36happen.
46:37And the
46:37people have
46:39also seen
46:39basically the
46:40supporter of
46:41Ram Mandir
46:41and the
46:42BJP and
46:42RSS,
46:43how these
46:44people were
46:44trying to be
46:45protected
46:46till the
46:46last minute.
46:47and when
46:47the BJP
46:48started imploding
46:49from below,
46:51when the
46:52Vine Katiar's
46:53reaction,
46:54you know what
46:54happened.
46:55Vine Katiar
46:55and Narependra
46:57Mishra,
46:58the most
46:58powerful
46:58bureaucratic
46:59once upon a
47:00time,
47:00the Prime
47:01Minister's
47:01eyes and
47:02ears,
47:02he said
47:03and still
47:05the action
47:06is not
47:06being done,
47:08then it
47:10has really
47:12embarrassed and
47:12disappointed
47:13RSS's core
47:14voter.
47:15And the
47:15core voter
47:16will decide
47:17whether they
47:18are going to
47:18vote for the
47:18BJP or not.
47:19That is something
47:20which has to
47:20be seen.
47:22But as you
47:22said,
47:23elections often
47:23are separate
47:24from these
47:25issues of
47:25our time,
47:26because
47:26Rahul Varma,
47:28the BJP
47:29came to
47:29power on
47:30the back
47:30of what
47:30happened in
47:31UPA2 in
47:32particular,
47:32scandal after
47:33scandal.
47:34And that,
47:34in a sense,
47:35was an
47:35important element
47:36in bringing
47:37the BJP
47:38back to
47:39power.
47:39Now you've
47:40got a
47:40situation where
47:42it's the
47:42BJP in
47:42power.
47:43Can they
47:43escape
47:45accountability,
47:46responsibility?
47:46Will it have
47:47permanent
47:47damage,
47:48in your
47:48view?
47:49Or is
47:49this a
47:49temporary
47:51damage that
47:52has been
47:52caused to
47:52one of
47:53their
47:53ideological
47:53planks?
47:54No,
47:55this is a
47:55serious
47:56damage.
47:56Permanent,
47:57I don't
47:58know.
47:58But let
47:59me elaborate
47:59what I'm
48:00saying.
48:01During
48:01Vajpayee
48:02times,
48:03there used
48:03to be a
48:04quote,
48:04and Vajpayee
48:05used to
48:05say this
48:06a lot,
48:07and I don't
48:13think the
48:14BJP can
48:15claim this
48:15now.
48:16There is
48:16no moral
48:17legitimacy to
48:18that line
48:19of Vajpayee
48:19now.
48:21And this
48:24has started
48:25showing in
48:26surveys.
48:26Govind Acharya
48:26started it
48:26first.
48:27Govind Acharya
48:27was the
48:28one who
48:28started.
48:28This has
48:29started
48:29showing in
48:30surveys.
48:30So they
48:31might win
48:32this election,
48:33next election,
48:34till you keep
48:35winning election.
48:36The contradictions
48:37that develop in
48:38your system,
48:38you don't see
48:39it.
48:40TMC didn't
48:40see what
48:41happened to
48:41them till
48:42the election
48:43results were
48:44announced.
48:44And so
48:47BJP in
48:48that sense
48:48is losing
48:49the moral
48:49legitimacy of
48:50that.
48:51And if you
48:51look at
48:522024 survey
48:53data, not
48:54on who
48:54voted for
48:54whom, but
48:55BJP is no
48:56longer seen
48:57as a party
48:58which is free
48:58of corruption.
49:00That allegation
49:02which many
49:03opposition leaders
49:04made that
49:05BJP has
49:06become a
49:06washing machine
49:07of corrupt
49:08politicians,
49:09a large
49:10number of
49:11voters agree
49:11with them.
49:12They might
49:12still be
49:13voting for
49:13them because
49:14they don't
49:15see the
49:16alternatives
49:16better.
49:17But one
49:18day, if
49:18there are
49:19better
49:19alternatives,
49:20BJP will
49:21suffer because
49:22of it.
49:22And see, I
49:23think there
49:24are repercussions
49:24of these
49:25kind of
49:25activities.
49:26You know,
49:27like, this
49:28is a
49:29serious, like
49:29religious
49:29institutions
49:30maybe have
49:31seen issues
49:32of corruption,
49:33not from
49:33today, but
49:34thousands of
49:35years, right?
49:36But for
49:37BJP, this
49:38is going to
49:38be a serious
49:38problem because
49:39it will hurt
49:40both your
49:41middle-of-the-road
49:41voters as
49:42well as the
49:43core voters.
49:44core voters
49:45may still
49:45vote for
49:46you, but
49:46they will
49:47not be
49:47enthusiastic
49:48about
49:48mobilizing
49:49for you.
49:50And so,
49:51yes, if
49:51the government
49:52takes an
49:52action, you
49:54might, this
49:54would be just
49:55a face
49:56saving, but
49:57you cannot
49:58now claim the
49:58moral legitimacy
49:59of that
50:00ideological
50:01movement that
50:02you were
50:02heading.
50:03And think of
50:04it, what I'm
50:04saying, there
50:04are lots of
50:06corruption
50:06scandals which
50:07are basically
50:08coming together
50:09at like in
50:10last four to
50:10six months.
50:11So, BJP's
50:12claim on
50:13corruption that
50:14it's a
50:14different party
50:15than all
50:16other regional
50:17parties and
50:17Congress, that
50:18claim you
50:19can't make.
50:20You are no
50:20longer any
50:21different.
50:23You know, on
50:24that slightly
50:25slobbering note,
50:25I want Rahul
50:26Ishwar a final
50:27quick word.
50:28Prayaschit
50:29kaise hota hai?
50:30You know, since
50:31part of Hinduism
50:32is also
50:33Prayaschit.
50:34What is the
50:34notion of
50:35Prayaschit in
50:35a case like
50:36this?
50:37An absolutely
50:38strong action
50:39should be
50:39taken.
50:40How do
50:40you repent?
50:41You know,
50:42absolutely strong
50:43action, that's
50:43the first thing
50:44should be taken.
50:45And a person
50:45like Modiji
50:46expressing regret
50:47or sadness
50:48may save some
50:49of the space
50:50because as
50:50Rajiv sir
50:50knows, the
50:51Hindu middle
50:52class vote is
50:53the major
50:53voiceful minority
50:54of this India.
50:56That Hindu
50:56middle class vote
50:57has been
50:57continuously supporting
50:58BJP and
50:59people like me,
50:59I don't belong to
51:00BJP, I'm a
51:00Gandhian, but we
51:01have been
51:02campaigning for
51:03bukti karo
51:03temporary.
51:05Expressing
51:06sadness, even
51:08Manmohan Singh
51:08may have done
51:09expressing sadness
51:10and regret is
51:10not surely the
51:11Prayaschit.
51:13No, that's not
51:13the Prayaschit.
51:14Strong action and
51:15those people who
51:16have taken this
51:16should go to
51:17jail and even
51:18if they are
51:18senior, they
51:19should go to
51:19jail.
51:19And the core
51:20point here is,
51:21you know, it
51:22will be very
51:22tough for them
51:23to win the
51:24trust back, but
51:25create such
51:26strong measures so
51:27that this thing
51:27won't happen in
51:28future.
51:29And that's the
51:29major thing.
51:30Okay.
51:32Okay, 20
51:33seconds, Ashutosh,
51:34you put your
51:34finger up quickly.
51:36Sir, Rajiv, the
51:37only thing is,
51:38institutional
51:39response should
51:40be free and
51:41neutral.
51:42That's the only
51:43Prayaschit, nothing
51:44else.
51:46Okay.
51:47I'm going to
51:47leave it there.
51:48I've heard lots
51:49of voices and
51:50as I said, this
51:51is an extremely
51:52sensitive issue.
51:53I appreciate all
51:54my guests joining
51:55us on the big
51:57Ram Mandir debate.
51:58Clearly, I want to
51:59leave you today with
52:00my take.
52:01Thank you all very
52:01much.
52:02First, my take.
52:03The alleged
52:04corruption and
52:05theft linked to
52:05the Ram Mandir is
52:07not, my friends,
52:08just another
52:08financial scandal.
52:10It strikes at
52:11something far
52:11deeper.
52:12The faith and
52:13devotion of
52:14millions of
52:14ordinary Indians
52:15who contributed
52:16with trust,
52:17emotion and
52:18belief.
52:18When corruption
52:20reaches the
52:20doorstep of a
52:22temple that was
52:22built through
52:23public faith and
52:24was part of a
52:25central political
52:26plank of the
52:27party in power,
52:29it raises
52:30uncomfortable
52:30questions about
52:32the moral
52:32condition of our
52:34society and our
52:35polity.
52:36If even sacred
52:37spaces are not
52:38immune from
52:39greed, what does
52:40that say about
52:41us?
52:42The tragedy is
52:43that faith is
52:44meant to elevate
52:44public life, not
52:46become a shield
52:47for wrongdoing
52:48and, dare I
52:49say, not
52:49misused for
52:51political power
52:52as well.
52:52When those
52:53entrusted with
52:54managing devotion
52:55are then accused
52:57of exploiting it,
52:58the damage goes
52:59far beyond just
53:00the money made.
53:01It erodes trust
53:02itself.
53:03A society and a
53:05political outfit
53:06that cannot protect
53:07its sacred
53:08institutions from
53:09corruption then
53:10risks normalizing
53:11corruption everywhere.
53:13If faith can be
53:14compromised, what
53:16remains, my
53:16friend, beyond
53:17the reach of
53:19greed, which is
53:20why we expect
53:22the strongest
53:23action to be
53:24taken against
53:25all those
53:26responsible,
53:27irrespective of
53:28how powerful or
53:30influential they
53:31are.
53:32This is now a
53:33moral test, not
53:34just a legal
53:36one.
53:37Think about
53:38it.
53:38That was, of
53:40course, my
53:40take.
53:41Thank you very
53:41much for joining
53:42us here on the
53:43Ram Mandir
53:44Debate.
53:45Bye for now.
53:46Namaskar.