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00:00Chris Mannix, NBC Boston from Sports Illustrated.
00:04Now this is some audio we played for you on yesterday.
00:06Jason Lloyd in with us from The Athletic 92.3, the fan, the whole deal.
00:12You want to listen to this Chris Mannix thing, because this started not even an argument with Tone and I.
00:17I just, I can't, like guys, I got to be willing to make the team better.
00:22And if I'm going to be willing to make the team better, I can't just trade away guys that I
00:25think are expendable.
00:26I have to be willing to make a move from the big piece.
00:30But let me tell you why I have hesitancy to make the type of move that Chris Mannix talks about
00:35here.
00:36Jalen Brown is truly available and what the asking price for him is going to be.
00:40But the Celtics, I believe, are listening to those calls and are, you know, thinking up their own trade matches
00:44of their own.
00:45I spent some time this afternoon talking to different teams about what might the Celtics be interested in.
00:49And the name and the team that came back to me a lot was Evan Mobley in the Cleveland Cavaliers.
00:54Mobley is one of those guys that could fit the archetype of the type of player that the Celtics are
00:58looking for.
00:58Now, if it is a deal they're interested in, it's a complicated deal to make because the Cleveland Cavaliers are
01:03a second apron team.
01:04And there are a whole bunch of different rules that go with being a second apron team,
01:07including the need to match dollar for dollar value with the player that goes out.
01:11That's just mathematically impossible, it seems like, in this moment.
01:14But that's the name training.
01:15So, you'd have to make some other things work out.
01:18And Lima was, I asked Lima about it, and the clip went on 92.3 The Fan's Twitter account where
01:24he was like,
01:24bye, bye, Evan, like he was waving to the cameras and all that other stuff.
01:28I'm hesitant to do so.
01:30And let me tell you why.
01:30Let me tell you why.
01:31I can't just be sitting here being afraid to make every move.
01:34I am trying to think about this rationally.
01:36Because in my estimation, and maybe Jason, you disagree with me, I do believe that fit, now with this second
01:43apron,
01:43now with this hard cap, fit matters more than it has through my entire adult life of watching the NBA.
01:50And I do believe that fit matters more.
01:52And I don't think that we recognize this.
01:54I think that there's people who, like I was getting some very interesting trade.
01:58I'm like, this is a good player, that's a good player.
02:00Like people on Twitter, there were some people on social media who were getting it, and some people who weren't.
02:05And Jalen Brown is a household name.
02:07Jalen Brown is a very, very, very good player.
02:09My issue with it is, though, if I were to let go of Evan Mobley for Jalen Brown,
02:13you'd have to let go and make some moves and, or excuse me, add some money to it,
02:18and that might mean another player.
02:19But basically, when you're talking about your starting five, you were talking about probably Dean Wade.
02:24Okay, you've got to have somebody out there playing defense.
02:27Then you have James Harden, then you have Donovan Mitchell, then you have Jalen Brown, then you have Jared Allen.
02:31And I basically took it as, and I know he's 6'6",
02:33and he's a combo, but you basically have three guards out there and Jared Allen.
02:37And I still don't know if that's going to be enough.
02:39I still don't believe that's enough to get you over the hump, to get you an NBA championship.
02:45Because that's what we're supposed to be doing.
02:47Like this, I think that, and it wasn't met with any positivity at all,
02:53I think that their messaging last year went from,
02:55let's go to the NBA Finals, to with the way the season started at 17 and 16,
02:59hey, let's get a little bit further.
03:00Let's make a move here, and then maybe over the summer they'll gel,
03:02and maybe they'll be a little bit better.
03:04Let's see where we are on things.
03:05And they did make it further, all right?
03:07Now, I'm not trying to conflate it over here, Jason,
03:09but I'm hesitant to move on from Evan,
03:13not because I'm holding on to some huge thing of the future,
03:17even though I think he can blossom into a very good player,
03:19but we're five years into this thing.
03:21The timelines don't add up.
03:22They never add it up.
03:23That came out of your mouth when it comes to Donovan Mitchell's timeline
03:26and Evan Mobley's timeline.
03:28Jalen Brown obviously makes it add up.
03:30But I'm hesitant because I just don't know if that's going to be a good enough fit
03:38for it to get over the hump, to not just beat the Knicks,
03:41but to beat San Antonio or Oklahoma City.
03:45It gets them closer.
03:46It does, but is it worth it?
03:50Listen, I've been one of the biggest Evan Mobley defenders in town.
03:54I would do the deal.
03:55Tell me why.
03:56I'm not going to – this is so different because there's been some trades
04:00that have been thrown out there that I go, you're stupid.
04:02You have no idea what you're talking about.
04:04And I'm not doing that with you, and I haven't really done that with Limey either.
04:06I've dismissed 99 of the 100 trade scenarios of Evan
04:10because I think in town, I think Evan is undervalued.
04:14I don't think fans appreciate how good he is.
04:17But ultimately –
04:18Part of that's our fault.
04:19Part of that's my fault.
04:20Well, ultimately, I understand the Knicks just won a championship
04:24with Jalen Brunson.
04:25I get it.
04:26The last 25, 30 years of NBA history will tell you you've got to win with big wings.
04:32The wing is the most important position in the NBA,
04:35and that's where the Cavs have been the weakest since LeBron left.
04:38So Jalen gives them a legitimate chance at that.
04:41And I wrote after they lost last year that their best path at winning a championship
04:46is if Evan Mobley becomes the best player on the team,
04:49Donovan Mitchell is not going to get him to a championship.
04:51He's a wonderful player.
04:52I'm not sure he's a number one on a championship team.
04:55And then we just saw that play out again this year.
04:57There's always something with Donovan in the playoffs.
04:59Yeah.
05:00It's – he wears down injury.
05:02There's always something.
05:03So Jalen – and I will admit, I don't know that the fit between Harden,
05:09Don, and Jalen is ideal, but I think it gets you closer to where you're trying to go
05:16because Jalen is that type of wing that they wanted Evan to become.
05:22So he's – at 6'6", still, he's making up for and then some of what you lose with Evan
05:27Mobley.
05:28I'm trusting you on this.
05:29He's going to give you something different.
05:30He's not as good defensively.
05:31I mean, Evan's elite defensively.
05:33Well, obviously.
05:33And so you're going to lose a little something there.
05:35Well, that's why I said he's got to have somebody play defense.
05:37That's what Dean Wade's for.
05:38And, yeah, and Dean would probably be the starting four in that.
05:42And that's a step – obviously, that's a huge step back to go from Mobley to Dean Wade at the
05:47four.
05:47But Dean does a lot of things, again, that go underappreciated, undervalued here.
05:52He's just – he's obviously not a great scorer.
05:54But I would – of all of the deals that we've heard – and, again, I've defended Evan more than
05:58anybody.
05:59But of all the deals that have been thrown out there, this one has my attention more than any –
06:03the honest thing never made sense to me because of the contract situation.
06:06And he didn't want to be here.
06:07I'm not sure Jalen Brown would be sprinting to get to Cleveland, but he's got three years of control.
06:11That's a lifetime in the NBA.
06:12His friend would be on the team with him, though.
06:14He has friends with Donovan Mitchell.
06:15He and Don are tight.
06:16And the Donovan contract thing absolutely weighs into this and plays into this.
06:21I've been consistent.
06:22Like, what does Donovan want?
06:24That's what's probably going to happen because you're trying to lock up Donovan long term.
06:27Well, that's – and also – because this is where it really starts to make a lot of sense to
06:32me.
06:32I think that when you have – I think people have seen Jalen Brown on the internet here over the
06:37last couple of days
06:38and like, oh, God, there's a malcontent right there.
06:40No, I think Jalen Brown's been his own guy.
06:42I think – I really like Jalen Brown.
06:44See, I do too.
06:45And I've always kind of made the joke, but it is true.
06:47I was fine with Jalen Brown, and then I really liked Jalen Brown after the comments about the royal family.
06:51Yeah.
06:51Or lack thereof, I should say.
06:54Okay, so I'm like, hey, he speaks his mind.
06:56Yeah.
06:57I think that he's thoughtful when he speaks his mind.
06:59I don't think that there's anything – I don't think that there's anything immature or bitter or anything like that.
07:04I think, honestly, he's a well-rounded person that he's decided to speak his mind when he does, and I
07:09listen to him.
07:09And he's – when he really talks, it's well thought out.
07:14It's well-researched.
07:15And so I don't think you have to – like, there's times where – and you brought this up.
07:19Like, Kyrie would say some things, and this is before all the other stuff.
07:22But when he was here –
07:23The flatter stuff.
07:24You'd start to look around going, what the hell's going on here?
07:27And Jalen Brown just doesn't do that.
07:29So I don't think that you're inviting problems into your locker room if you go out and get Jalen Brown.
07:34I really don't.
07:34No.
07:34And I also think that – I agree with you.
07:36I don't think that Jalen Brown sees Cleveland as a destination, but I think Donovan could help that.
07:40And so I need to put that leadership on Donovan or test that leadership on Donovan going, all right, like,
07:46if he doesn't like it, he's going to tell you he doesn't like it.
07:49And he's going to tell you he doesn't like being here if he doesn't like it.
07:52That's true.
07:53And to a level I can respect that even though it makes a problem for us if he comes here
07:57and later on down the line he does that.
07:58But for Donovan, I have to be able to sell him on the city.
08:01You claim you love the city so much.
08:03You claim you love the area so much.
08:04And I believe you, can you get somebody else who you're very good friends with to do it?
08:11Like, I have to be open-minded to this because I can't just sit here.
08:15I know that there's moves that need to be made, but I also am not just going to sit here
08:19and say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
08:20You've got to give up something to get something.
08:23You can't just give up your garbage for the raccoons to pick through to bring back last segment.
08:28You can't just give up your garbage for somebody else's great player.
08:32Like, you have to give up something that's going to be worth it.
08:34I would just point out, for as much slander as Evan Mobley has taken over the last however many years
08:41where people just don't think he's that very good, the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Boston Celtics
08:46have both expressed now great interest in Evan Mobley.
08:49What does that tell you?
08:50Those are two of the best front offices in the NBA.
08:52Yeah.
08:52And both of them are saying, yeah, we want that guy.
08:55And I think that's part of the reason why I'm hesitant.
08:58And I'll tell you why coming up here in a moment.
09:00I can't talk out of both sides of my mouth.
09:02I've got to be willing to make a move.
09:05I also know I can, I can, I think I can kick the can down the road until the, until
09:10the trade deadline.
09:11But I think that that's kind of, I, I, no, I sound, I sound weak.
09:17I sound afraid.
09:17I can't kick the can down the road to the trade deadline.
09:20You're going to make the type of move we're talking about.
09:21You can't do that at the trade deadline.
09:23Because, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
09:24Not that, not that trade.
09:25Okay.
09:26One, it's, I don't know if it, if it's going to mean enough to get Jalen Brown.
09:31That's my problem.
09:32Uh, the other part of it is, is that I do think that part of the way, and you would
09:36know
09:36better.
09:36Okay.
09:37So part of this, I'm saying this theory, but I'm kind of running it by you that rich Paul
09:42goes public with it, but you probably knew beforehand that this was going to be Darius's
09:46last season.
09:47No matter what you had to make a move.
09:49And they've been trying to get Darius out of Cleveland for multiple years.
09:51Rich Paul has been trying to get Darius out of Cleveland for multiple years.
09:53Correct.
09:53Okay.
09:54That's the, they part, right?
09:56So this is my thing is I've been defensive of the James Harden move because we knew that
10:02they had to get James, the, the, the clutch was trying to get Darius out of Cleveland.
10:07The Cavs were going to have to get Darius out of Cleveland.
10:10It was just going to happen over the last couple of years.
10:12So knowing that and knowing that he's often injured, he's an undersized guard.
10:17And what we really want is a wing.
10:19You're not going to get any of that for Darius Garland for all the reasons I just gave you.
10:22So when they made the move for James Harden, it's unpopular because of what James Harden
10:27is known, known for.
10:29It was a distressed asset traded for a distressed asset.
10:31Yes.
10:32Yes.
10:32And my first thought was, all right, I'm fine with this move, but I can't expect terribly
10:39much more.
10:40And then they went out and they played extremely well.
10:42And I shot my mouth off and said that I was going to pencil them in for the finals.
10:45And I, then I tried to use pencil instead of pen.
10:48And, and that just ended up being embarrassing.
10:51So now I'm trying to think of it this way.
10:53They get to the Eastern conference finals.
10:54They lose that game the way they did in the first game.
10:57And then they basically just call it a season after that.
11:00So then you get to the summer and I've been thinking that whole time.
11:04All right.
11:04You get to the summer, you get an entire off season.
11:06You see what's happened with a lot of these teams.
11:08You take a year to gel.
11:10Maybe they can go a little bit further.
11:11It's probably not going to go that way.
11:14And now, because of what I said before, I know that I, I can't just sit here and be
11:20Stan Pat.
11:21And I ran the poll and overwhelmingly fans want to make a move, but I don't want to
11:25make a move.
11:26You can't make a move just to make a move.
11:27Because I'm getting a lot of that read.
11:29I mean, I had a guy get a social media reactions brought to you by.
11:32Shive and Jewelers, Cleveland's premier jewelry store.
11:34I mean, I have multiple people saying they don't find the Cavs entertaining.
11:37They don't find the Cavs interesting.
11:38And they're not going to watch the Cavs if they don't make a move.
11:41And I go, they won 52 games last year.
11:43This is nuts.
11:43They won 64 the year before.
11:45All right.
11:46I mean, if we're talking about teams that have, have not got your eyeballs here, there's
11:50another team in town.
11:51This is not one of them.
11:52Okay.
11:53And that's what bothers me.
11:55Cause I'm going, guys, we can't just make moves to make moves over here.
11:57We're very close.
11:58And I know that the clock is ticking.
12:01And I think the James, how I made the analogy.
12:03I think the James Harden move, Jason, Jason Lloyd in for Lyman, by the way, I think the
12:07James Harden move sped the clock up when you were, and we all know that, like if you see
12:13a movie where they're trying to defuse a bomb and they cut the wrong wire and then the clock,
12:16the clock speeds up, like that's what the James Harden move did.
12:20And Evan, I'm not just trying to hold onto him because of this grand future.
12:26I, I am, I know wholeheartedly that this is going to go bust and that eventually we're
12:32going to be at 19 win land again and trying to get picks and trying to do this whole thing
12:37over again.
12:39And I, I, I've never gone from that reality, but I want to make the right move.
12:45And Jalen Brown's great.
12:47You have to be able to tell me that the combo is going to be enough because at the base
12:52of
12:52it, it's not that Jalen Brown isn't an exceptional player.
12:55I love Jalen Brown, but it's that, does it just turn into three guards and Jared Allen?
13:00Because Jared Allen, I mean, you, you said that the fans feel that, that Evan Mobley's
13:03overrated.
13:04I think part of that, I blamed it on ourselves because I think that I built him up to be
13:08the next big thing, to be a one percenter.
13:10He's not, he's an elite defender.
13:11He's a great player, but he's not a one percenter.
13:13But then you also have the fact coming in of, all right, he, he's overrated to the fan
13:18base.
13:19Jared Allen's actually underrated to the fan base.
13:21And you look at his contract going, oh my God, he's worth so much more money than he gets
13:24paid.
13:25And I think that could be a really good team, but I think it's probably just an Eastern
13:28Conference Finals team again, Jason.
13:34It's a year ago at this time when the Knicks lost in the Conference Finals, did you think
13:38that they were a team that could win a championship?
13:40When they, when they lost, when they lost to the Knicks, when the Knicks lost last year
13:45in the Conference Finals.
13:46No, I did not think they were a team that could win a championship.
13:48And I probably, I would agree with that.
13:49I would not, I mean, I would have picked the Cavs all season long.
13:52I would have picked the Cavs to beat the Knicks in a, in a playoff series.
13:55So I was concerned about the Celtics.
13:57And then you can ask Anthony, I was concerned about the 76ers with Joel Embiid coming back,
14:01but I, I should have known he wasn't going to be healthy.
14:03Yeah.
14:03So it's, it's, it's hard in the moment to say they're not there yet.
14:08I do think that they're close, but if you, if you don't think Evan is get a piece that's
14:15can lead a team to a championship, who else is out there that you would move him for?
14:20If it's not Jalen Brown, that's realistic.
14:22I don't know.
14:22There's no other deal.
14:23There is none.
14:23There is none.
14:24Cause the, again, the honest thing never made sense to me because the contract situation,
14:29this does make sense because Jalen's under contract for three years.
14:32If it's, if, if it's not now, then when, and, and, and if your answer is, if you say no
14:39to
14:39this, then your answer is basically, I'm not willing to trade Evan Mobley in a realistic
14:42scenario because there's no other player out there that I think aligns with both teams
14:49needs.
14:49I would agree.
14:49Like this one does.
14:50I would agree.
14:51And I, I like, I, I listened to Nick talk about it two days ago where he said he'd moved
14:56Donovan Mitchell for Jalen Brown.
14:58Well, sure.
14:59I know, but I know what he's trying to do.
15:01He's trying to hold on to Evan Mobley.
15:02What Nick's trying to do is eat, have his cake and eat it too.
15:04Well, the reason why you would trade Donovan Mitchell for, for Jalen Brown is the same
15:09reason why the Celtics won't.
15:11Yeah, exactly.
15:12I'm trying, and I'm not even trying to bag on Nick.
15:14I think what Nick's doing is I it's noble, but it's just not realistic.
15:19No, you're not going to be able to move Donovan for Jalen.
15:22No, the Celtics say no to that.
15:24The Celtics may say yes to Evan Mobley, but I have to go in knowing that.
15:28But okay, it's basically this year and that's it.
15:31This has to be the year.
15:33Do you, how, how many more years do I get?
15:35Do I actually extend this?
15:36Cause I think as you sit right now, it's probably this year and that's it.
15:39How many more years do I extend it?
15:41I mean, I think you have two, you have two years.
15:44Regardless?
15:45Yeah.
15:45Because Jalen's got, so Donovan has one year left on his deal.
15:50So this is going to become a thing.
15:52He's not, I don't think he's, I would be surprised if he signs this summer because of the amount
15:56of money he would leave on the table.
15:58But you, but you're going to have to start having the same conversations.
16:00But you have to operate in good faith that he's going to resign until you have reason
16:04otherwise.
16:05So Carlos Boozer is the only one who proved us wrong.
16:08So that's pretty good.
16:09I mean, things can go south in a year, but let's just operate under good faith that he'll
16:14There's been one guy in history that's really put the screws to us.
16:16I think those odds are okay, but I think you get, I think you get two years out of
16:20this and then you're going to have to have conversations about if Jalen didn't want to
16:23be here or not.
16:23Then you got to have that conversation, but you get two years.
16:26So are you saying to me, it's two years regardless?
16:29No, it's more than two.
16:30If you don't make the trade.
16:31Well, well, that's, that's what I'm asking.
16:33I mean, because Donovan could still, you could not make a trade and Donovan could still not
16:37sign.
16:37And I think that conversation is going to heat up, especially with what they, I, you know,
16:41I've been hearing some weird things from people I know and you wouldn't, again,
16:46I will acquiesce to you.
16:47Okay.
16:48You covered the NBA a long time.
16:49You know, everybody.
16:50All right.
16:50I'm not starting an argument here.
16:51I know I lose that argument, but I have heard over the last couple of days to keep an eye
16:56on Miami and watch what they do with their contracts.
17:00Because another player that Donovan really loves is Bam Adebayo.
17:04Yeah.
17:05And that if they don't move a lot of contracts around, or I should say, start signing people
17:09to big long-term contracts, then all of a sudden that's a destination.
17:12If Donovan doesn't sign this summer, which a lot of things would tell you he wouldn't,
17:17but I got to keep that in the back of my mind.
17:19So now we're having some of the same conversations we did two years ago with Donovan.
17:23And if you lose games this year, like if you start off 17 and 16 again, there's going to
17:27be plenty of people lining up to say, gone.
17:29Oh, it's going to be a thing.
17:30It's going to be a thing.
17:31For sure, it's going to be a thing.
17:32But again, like as we sit here in June, the reason why he wouldn't sign this summer makes
17:37perfect sense.
17:41So I'll put it this way.
17:42When he first came here, there was a lot of chatter about he wanted to be in New York.
17:48He wanted to go to New York.
17:49He's going to go to New York.
17:49The Knicks basically chose OG Ananobi over Donovan because they traded all their trade
17:56assets to get Ananobi.
17:58So the Knicks are the ones that shut that down.
18:00There has been no chatter at all.
18:04Very, very little about Donovan wanting out of Cleveland ever since he signed the extension
18:08from across the league for whatever that's worth.
18:11So I do believe him because I do believe that he wants to win.
18:14I think that he feels like this is probably the best place for him in order to win.
18:18Now, that is after the Harden deal.
18:22I think Donovan's side got this to a point where they felt like something had to change.
18:27And it did.
18:27They made the Darius move and they brought Harden in.
18:31So again, there's two sides of this.
18:34You can't operate your entire franchise around somebody who's not invested long term when
18:39you only got one year control.
18:40But at the same time, you don't want to go against their wishes and drive them out.
18:44See what I'm saying?
18:45Yeah.
18:46Coming up.
18:46I want to get back to that here in a second.
18:47But coming up at eight o'clock, it won't make me happy, but it might be the best thing
18:52for Shedora Sanders.
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