00:01And joining me now is Milind Deora, Shiv Sena, Rajya Sabha MP, join me, appreciate you joining
00:06us Mr. Deora.
00:08The accusation being made by the Shiv Sena UBT, particularly by Sanjay Raut, this is
00:12Sam, Daam, Danda, Bhed, politics at his verse to break his party.
00:16He claims 50 crores have changed hands per MP, 15 crores given in advance.
00:22How do you respond to the charge that serious amounts of money have been given to break
00:27the Shiv Sena UBT?
00:30My response is, Rajdeep, why are you taking Sanjay Raut so seriously?
00:36Isn't it very clear now the entire country knows that Sanjay Raut is not someone to be
00:40taken seriously?
00:41He's made so many random claims over the last several years with zero proof.
00:48Nobody is willing to introspect and ask why people are leaving this party.
00:54Nobody is willing to introspect and ask why people want to join Ikhna Chandaji and Shiv Sena
01:00under his leadership.
01:02Nobody is willing to introspect as to why the party split in the first place.
01:07May I also ask you, you are saying that the Shiv Sena UBT should introspect.
01:11May I ask you then, a video of Om Rajay Nimbalkar, one of the rebel MPs, just a couple of
01:17months
01:17ago in Marathi is going viral, where he swears that what he is in life today is because of
01:22Baya Sahib Thakre and Uddav Thakre.
01:24This is just a couple of months ago.
01:26Are you suddenly telling me that Mr. Nimbalkar has woken up to a new reality?
01:31Is it not true that there were lures and allures that have been used to break the party because
01:35the BJP, your main ally, wants 360 or a two-thirds majority at all costs in the Lok Sabha
01:41ahead of the monsoon session?
01:44Haven't we been hearing about MPs being disgruntled with UBT for the last almost year, year and
01:49a half?
01:50That has nothing to do with the delimitation bill, that has nothing to do with the constitutional
01:54amendment bill, that has nothing to do with women's reservation.
01:57The fact is that there is a larger problem in our country, Rajdeep, which I would genuinely
02:03ask journalists to also ask this fundamental question.
02:06Which country in the world, we claim we are the largest democracy in the world, which country
02:11in the world, has political parties.
02:15In fact, in the opposition, there is really only one party that comes to mind where you
02:19can't predict who will be the leader 10 years, 15 years from now, and that's the communists.
02:23Otherwise, political parties are functioning more like monarchies, they have a monarchical
02:28architecture and less like democratic parties and yet they claim to be the ones that will
02:33defend democracy.
02:34How is that going to work?
02:35If you keep thrusting leaders onto the party, onto the cadre, onto the public when they are
02:40being rejected one after the other, election after election, how will people stay with
02:46them?
02:46When you have a stark comparison between a leadership that does not meet its MPs, its MLAs, does not
02:55go out to meet people, to meet the public to a Maharashtra versus a party which is on 24
03:01by 7, where the leader is meeting its legislators, is going out meeting the public.
03:06What do you expect people to do?
03:09You see, because the larger problem, you raise one problem, but let me raise another large
03:13problem.
03:14If I fight an election on a particular political symbol, asking for votes with a particular
03:20leader on my poster, then I get elected.
03:23Surely, morally, I must first resign and seek re-election rather than break the very party
03:29and then join the party that I oppose during the election.
03:32What is the morality then left of the people who are joining you?
03:36They opposed you during the last election.
03:40That's not for me to answer.
03:41That's for people and individuals and MPs from different parties who would do that to
03:47answer.
03:48It's for them to answer their electorate.
03:49It's for them to answer their constituency.
03:51It's ultimately a relationship between them and their constituents.
03:55I've never done that.
03:56I don't know what it feels like.
03:57I don't want to comment on that.
03:59No, but what is your belief, Milind Dehura?
04:01Is your belief that if someone is elected on a particular political symbol with a particular
04:05leadership in place, should he or she at the very least resign if he wants to leave the
04:10party or she wants to leave and suddenly finds all things wrong with their leadership?
04:13Suddenly all Shiv Seniks are finding all things wrong with their relationship with Uddhar Thakre.
04:20As I said, Om Rajen Nimbalkar till a few months ago said Uddhar Thakre is almost like a god
04:25to him.
04:25Now what happens?
04:27What has changed?
04:28My belief is this, that we live in a democracy.
04:31If a Lok Sabha MP, if an MLA decides to quit their particular party that they got elected
04:37from, they've lost faith in their leader and they go to the people of their constituency
04:42and the people of their constituency feel what they did was wrong, they will reject them.
04:46If the people of their constituency feel what they did was right, the people of their constituency
04:50have had a change of mind, they will reward them.
04:53Mind you, Maharashtra's politics has seen this churn since when?
04:57Since 2019, when Shiv Sena aligned with the Congress party, which was unimaginable.
05:04Rajdeep, and you know that better than anyone else does.
05:06It was completely unimaginable that the Congress party would go with Shiv Sena and Shiv Sena would
05:11go with the Congress party.
05:12What happened then?
05:13So let me ask you that question, turn around and ask you that question.
05:17Shiv Sena at the time fought with BJP, won a mandate, they ditched that mandate and went
05:23with Congress.
05:24Is that fair?
05:25Is that right?
05:26What about morality then?
05:28That question has to be answered by the Thakre.
05:31The question I am asking you, Milind Diora, that all of this you are seemingly saying is
05:36because people are tired of the monarchical or dynastical leadership of the Shiv Sena UBT
05:41as you are calling it.
05:42But the fact is that, you know, people, you also left the Congress party to join the Shiv Sena,
05:50a party which at one stage the Congress was deadly opposed to.
05:54So let's be honest, the real question seems to be that there are no ideologies that really
05:59matter.
05:59Everyone wants to be proximate to power, Ukta Suraj.
06:05By the way, I joined Shiv Sena and this was after the Congress joined hands with Shiv Sena.
06:10So when you're talking about ideology, you should ask that question to the erstwhile Shiv Sena
06:14and to the Congress party, Rajdeep.
06:17What did they do with the ideology?
06:19Why did they do it?
06:20Just for power, with the flimsy excuse of saying let's keep BJP out.
06:23So, but there is a genuine question to answer your earlier point.
06:28Yes, I do believe that we are living in unique times where most of our parties are functioning
06:36more like monarchies and less like democracies.
06:39And what we've seen through history, monarchies ultimately fail.
06:43What happens in a monarchy ultimately?
06:44There is a benevolent great king.
06:47That person knows how to govern.
06:50Maybe their son or daughter is smart, but maybe their grandson or granddaughter is incapable.
06:56Maybe their great-grandson and great-great-grandson is even more incapable.
07:00But yet they're thrust upon the public.
07:02Yet they're thrust upon the party.
07:03Naturally, there will be a revolution.
07:05That's how revolutions happened.
07:07From Russia to France, that's how you had revolutions. Bloody revolutions.
07:10You know, these are hardly revolutions, Mr. Deora.
07:13But the truth of the matter is, today on my show, far from revolutions,
07:16what you are doing is normalizing defections.
07:18You're basically saying nothing wrong in a person who is elected on one party,
07:23then switching to the other mid-term.
07:25You're claiming there is no allurement involved.
07:27And do you really expect me to seriously believe that there is no allurement,
07:31no malay being offered?
07:34There is no allurement involved.
07:36The only factor that is making people move out of a party like UBT,
07:42from Karekartas all the way to MPs,
07:44is a lack of faith in that party's leadership.
07:49And I'm not saying defections are a good thing.
07:51But I'm saying that parties, if they're failing to introspect,
07:54if they're continuing to thrust failed leaders,
07:56who've repeatedly lost, are refusing to take good advice.
08:00Obviously somebody who believes they have good advice can contribute.
08:04Why will you be in an organization, Rajdeep?
08:06Why will you be in an organization where if you have ideas
08:08and that organization's failing to listen to you,
08:10you'll obviously look for an organization that values what you bring to the table.
08:15That's bound to happen. That's human nature.
08:17The question should not be asked of somebody who feels that they are not being rewarded,
08:25or if they feel that there is another leader who respects them,
08:29or where they can contribute better.
08:30The question should also be asked of parties that have converted democratic institutions into monarchies.
08:37To me that's a fundamental question that must be asked,
08:39if we want to strengthen our democracy.
08:41I believe, by the way, I believe, as an Indian,
08:45the party that I represent before the fact that I'm a member of parliament,
08:48I believe as an Indian, I want a strong opposition in my country.
08:52I want a constructive opposition in my country.
08:54I want an opposition that today when there's a global crisis,
08:58when there's, I mean the war has ended,
09:00but when there's a problem where you have a maritime choke point in Iran,
09:03tomorrow it could be a pandemic like COVID,
09:05I want a party and I want an opposition that provides, offers constructive suggestions.
09:10Not just shouts and waits for a crisis and hopes and prays that there will be a fluke and people
09:15will vote against them.
09:16Because if they believe, if they believe that they will win because there might be anti-incumbency against the government,
09:22they must be reminded that there's anti-incumbency against them also.
09:26Because voters are rejecting them and seeing the same narrative, the same faces again.
09:31Mr. Devra, let me leave it there.
09:32Because as you said, you believe that dynistical politics and monarchical politics is at the heart of these defections.
09:38And many will of course say, I might add, that Milind Devra, you're the product of the same dynistical politics.
09:44And for the longest time you were very close to the Gandhi family,
09:48who suddenly you seem to find as a dynistical party.
09:50Suddenly you've got a problem with dynistical politics, but we'll debate that on another day.
09:57I don't have a problem with dynistical politics.
10:00I said dynistic politics is a global phenomena.
10:02You have in the United States, you have the Kennedys, you have the Bushes.
10:04I too am a product of dynistic politics.
10:06But I do have a problem with repeatedly thrusting leadership onto people,
10:12when that leadership is failing to inspire confidence in the party and with the people.
10:17And that is what is happening with the UVT today.
10:19And that is what is leading to this revolt, rebellion, whatever you want to call it.
10:23Okay, I'm going to leave it there, Milind Devra.
10:24You've given a strong defence of why you believe the Shiv Sena is splitting apart in the way it is.
10:33Thank you very much for joining me on the show tonight.
10:36Okay, Milind Devra there.
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