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In an exclusive interview with India Today, Israel's Ambassador to India Reuven Azar shares his thoughts on the 14-point MoU signed between the US and Iran, Middle East tensions, the Lebanon border crisis and more.
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00:05The 14-point MOU signed between the United States and Iran has kicked up a huge storm
00:11in the United States of America and in Israel.
00:15It's being called a surrender by the United States of America.
00:20Has Israel been thrown under the bus?
00:23With me on deal and dialogue is Israel's ambassador to India, Ambassador Reuven Nazar.
00:31Ambassador, welcome.
00:32Thank you, sir.
00:33I'm sure you've read the 14-point MOU.
00:37Has Israel been thrown under the bus?
00:39Is this binding on Israel?
00:42I also read the G7 statement, by the way, which also is worth reading.
00:46Israel and the United States have had an amazing military victory, Gaurav,
00:52because we have managed to remove the existential threats on our country.
00:55And the damage to Iran, not only that their leadership, their criminal leadership was removed,
01:00but also the damage to Iran in military terms is worth more than a trillion dollars.
01:06Now, when it comes to diplomacy, we are at the point in which the United States,
01:10for its own considerations, had to do a kind of a diversion that has to do with immediate interest,
01:16like, for example, the energy markets.
01:18So what we are seeing here is a situation in which the Strait of Hormuz are going to go back
01:28to normal functioning.
01:31Okay.
01:31And the entire diplomatic negotiation was, you know, it's just beginning.
01:37So that's victory for Iran.
01:40On the 27th of February, before operations started, the Strait of Hormuz was open.
01:45The trade was normal.
01:47Shipping was normal.
01:49So Iran has been able to prove it has a chokehold and America surrendered.
01:56Well, at what price?
01:58At the end of the day, this is not something you can use on a permanent basis
02:01because all the countries in the region now and in the world are going to find alternatives for the Strait
02:08of Hormuz.
02:08So the fact that they have been able to use this once,
02:11it doesn't mean that necessarily they will be able to use it in the future.
02:14Everybody understands now how threatening and unreliable Iran is as a partner and as a friend.
02:22Now, yes, they have been, might have been able to leverage that at this point,
02:27but it doesn't diminish from the military defeat, from the fact that Israel now is much safer as a result
02:34of this military campaign.
02:37Is Israel safer or more vulnerable?
02:40No.
02:40I want to quote to you.
02:42This is para one.
02:44Para one.
02:45It says,
02:58Well, there is a call for a ceasefire that is not being respected, but there is, unlike what the Iranians
03:08said,
03:09there is not a call for withdrawal.
03:10Israel will stay in the, in the south, in Lebanon, until we get guarantees.
03:17And we have actually a peace process going on, a negotiation going on between us and the Lebanese government.
03:24And after the third round of negotiations that ended on the 3rd of June,
03:28we have agreed to launch a pilot program that will see whether the Lebanese army
03:35can start taking chunks of the territory free from Hezbollah presence.
03:41So, unless that happens, Israel will stay in south Lebanon.
03:44But will not act even if hit.
03:47Isn't that the situation right now?
03:49We will defend ourselves, and our prime minister has stated that,
03:53our defense minister has stated that, that Israel will defend itself if attacked by Hezbollah.
03:58But, right now, the president of the United States, very publicly he said,
04:04I told Bibi, go easy, don't bomb them, just because there's one Hezbollah man entering a building,
04:11don't, don't bring the building down.
04:12And, and the kind of words he's used for the Israeli prime minister,
04:16saying words to the effect, there is no Israel without Donald Trump.
04:20There is no Bibi without Donald Trump.
04:23Is that the case?
04:24Well, first of all, there's no doubt that this American president has done for Israel
04:27more than any American president, president in the past.
04:30He has recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
04:33He has recognized the, the sovereignty of Israel over the Golan Heights.
04:38It has transferred the American embassy to Jerusalem.
04:40It has done many, many things.
04:43Okay.
04:44He has done many, many things.
04:46However, on this point, I think that what, what I understand from, uh, what the president
04:53is saying is that right now they won't call.
04:56Okay.
04:56So they would like Israel to be less aggressive.
04:59Now we are ready, as I said, to engage in a diplomatic process, but we will not renounce
05:05our right for self-defense.
05:07And we are going to continue operations in South Lebanon.
05:10And if we are attacked, we are going to retaliate.
05:12So if attacked, you will retaliate.
05:14So you said, uh, president Donald Trump has done a lot for Israel, including recognition
05:19of Jerusalem.
05:21Uh, Mohamed Bagheer Ghalibaf, uh, the speaker of the Iranian parliament has in the words,
05:26if you know, I'm not quoting him in verbatim, but he said words to the effect that liberation
05:31of Jerusalem will be the ultimate homage, uh, to the supreme leader.
05:36So has the Donald Trump in a, in while negotiating with Iran now thrown Israel under the bus?
05:43Well, you know, Ghalibaf is saying what the, his criminal, so-called supreme leader was
05:49saying, uh, already for 40 years, that they want to annihilate the state of Israel and they
05:54want to conquer Jerusalem.
05:55So, uh, they cannot receive that in a piece of paper.
05:59We have defeated them militarily.
06:02They don't have the possibility to attack us because we have neutralized those threats.
06:06And now the armies of Iran are defeated.
06:11So, we are going to invest because we don't underestimate the threats of, uh, of the Iranian
06:18theocratic radical regime.
06:21The prime minister of Israel has announced a program of investment of more than a hundred
06:26billion dollars in tech security and defense technology to safeguard ourselves from future
06:33attacks from Iran.
06:35Israel will do whatever it has to do to defend itself.
06:39We appreciate the fact that the United States has been working on us, with us militarily.
06:43Right now, diplomatically, we have gaps, but we share the same interest and the same goal
06:50to make sure that Iran can no longer effectively threaten with annihilation countries in the
06:57region and that, uh, the Straits of Hormuz and the system that actually has been built
07:03by the United States under CENTCOM will sustain, uh, the capabilities of countries in this region
07:10to function despite the Iranian threat.
07:13You will spend one hundred billion dollars.
07:16Do I understand that correctly on your modernization?
07:18Yes.
07:18Iran will be given three hundred billion dollars.
07:21Three hundred billion dollars.
07:22And they will have, look, and they will have to decide, Gaurab, whether to divert this money.
07:30By the way, it's not guaranteed that they will receive this money, okay?
07:33It's only after a final deal.
07:35But let's assume that they receive the money.
07:39They will have to decide whether to go and compensate for the one trillion dollars they
07:45have lost in this war and the needs of their population.
07:49Eighty million people that have been suffering and have been taken hostage by this regime for
07:56the pipe dreams of dominating the region.
07:58I don't think so.
07:59So, they are dominating the region after this, are they not?
08:02Well, I don't think so.
08:02How?
08:03So, okay.
08:04So, one part of the surrender.
08:06The United States of America further undertakes to remove its forces from the proximity of
08:13the Islamic Republic of Iran within 30 days of that final deal.
08:17America is withdrawing from West Asia after this war.
08:20What has America achieved?
08:21If we reach, if we reach a final deal in which the threats of Iran will be neutralized, there's
08:27no reason why America should keep all these forces that it's keeping now.
08:31So the question is now, we are going to have a diplomatic debate, okay, on the terms of the
08:38future of the aspirations of Iran to develop weapons of mass destruction.
08:43If we can verifiably make sure that these threats are neutralized, then there's no reason to
08:50remain in the region with such might.
08:54The challenge for us, and this, in this, I agree with you that these 14 points do not
09:01include things that are very important for us.
09:04For example...
09:05The ballistic missiles.
09:06The ballistic missile issue, and the support for the proxies.
09:09For us, this is something that is missing.
09:13Of course, we'll continue coordinating with the United States to try to make them rethink
09:19about that and to cooperate with us in order to make sure that these threats are addressed.
09:24Because if they are not addressed, it's a recipe for confrontation in the future.
09:29And as I said, Israel will not hesitate to defend itself by itself.
09:33So, if America were to withdraw its forces in 30 days after that final agreement.
09:39So, the MOU has signed, for the next 60 days, there's a ceasefire in place.
09:44Then another 30 days, all is peaceful.
09:46And then Iran starts building longer range missiles.
09:48And the American president has thrown Israel under the bus by saying, so if you...
09:54Words to the effect.
09:55If Saudi Arabia has missiles, if Qatar has missiles, if others have missiles, it's not
10:00fair not to ask Iran to have missiles.
10:02Which means Iran now has the same legitimacy which it lacked in the past 47-odd years to
10:07have the same number or more missiles than Qatar and Saudi Arabia and go and target Israel.
10:12Well, first of all, if you read the G7 statement that includes the United States, it is written
10:19there very specifically that this threat has to be addressed.
10:23Because the difference between Iran and other countries that have ballistic missile industry
10:30is that Iran is threatening other countries with annihilation.
10:35So when you assess every, any security threat, you have to take into account not only what
10:41are the means that the country possesses, but what are their intentions.
10:44As long as this regime in Tehran has the intentions of annihilating other countries, including
10:50Israel, this issue will have to be addressed.
10:53And if it's not addressed, then Israel will have to defend itself.
10:57It's not addressed in these 14-point MOU.
10:59Do you agree?
11:00No, it's not.
11:00Absolutely.
11:01You agree?
11:02Of course.
11:03So Israel's interests have been compromised when it comes to Iran having ballistic missiles?
11:08At this point, yes.
11:09Let me now come to the next point, on the Strait of Hormuz.
11:13The entire focus was Strait of Hormuz will be free, open and unimpeded movement of merchant
11:20vessels or all movement of tankers, oil and gas and other commercial shipping.
11:25Am I right?
11:25Yes.
11:25Right.
11:26For a period of 60 days.
11:28Beyond 60 days, what happens?
11:31Then people pay Iran to cross.
11:34Nobody's going to pay.
11:34Gaurav, look, this is a pipe dream.
11:37Nobody's going to pay because this is against international law.
11:40And the G7 have been very, very clear about that.
11:44Not only that.
11:45The Chinese have been clear about that.
11:47Okay?
11:48The Russians have been clear.
11:49Nobody's going to agree to pay tolls in a waterway.
11:52If there are services that the Iranians want to grant to anybody that agrees to that, they
11:58will give services.
11:59But you don't need any services which were available for free earlier.
12:03No, no, no.
12:03Now will have to be paid because permit me to quote you.
12:05No, no, no.
12:05Ambassador, permit me to quote you.
12:07The Islamic Republic of Iran will conduct dialogue with the Sultanate of Oman to define
12:11the future administration and maritime services in the Strait of Hormuz in discussion with other
12:17Persian Gulf literal states in line with the applicable international law and sovereign
12:22rights of coastal states of the Strait of Hormuz.
12:25Okay, and what does international law says?
12:28It says that international waterways have to remain open.
12:34It's like comparing it with a decision of, I don't know, Spain, Britain and Morocco to
12:39charge services at the Strait of Gilberto.
12:41It's not going to happen.
12:43It's against international law.
12:44So if countries in the literal states of the Persian Gulf or the Arab Gulf want to grant
12:52services, they can grant services.
12:54It's a voluntary payment for services that maybe you want to have or don't want to have.
13:01But there is no chance.
13:03And it's written there.
13:04You have to understand international law.
13:06It's written there as well.
13:07It has to be according to international law.
13:10And international law is very clear.
13:12No payment for navigation in international waterways.
13:18However, if they're paying for services, it's almost like the mafia.
13:21I mean, I'm not calling Iran a mafia.
13:23I'm just being very clear.
13:24I'm not calling Iran a mafia.
13:25But all I'm saying is you voluntarily pay mafia for safety, right, in your neighborhood.
13:31Hafta Vasuli is what we call it in our country.
13:33That Hafta Vasuli is now legal.
13:35Well, that's…
13:35And America said, okay, that's perennial supply of money for Iran.
13:39That's wishful thinking.
13:39So you can have your imagination coordinated with the Iranian imagination.
13:44That's up to you.
13:45But I'm telling you what international law says.
13:48And at the end of the day, look, it's very difficult for this regime to explain to their
13:54people why two months after their so-called supreme leader was liquidated, and after they
14:01suffered a terrible blunder to their military, their navy is no longer there, their proxies
14:08are debilitated, everything, all what they built with tens and hundreds of billions of
14:15dollars investment has gone lost.
14:17And two or three months after, they have to sell something to their people.
14:21So if you want to take this paper seriously, with all these pipe dreams of collecting something,
14:27it's not going to happen.
14:28So Israel is not taking this seriously?
14:30Look, what we are taking seriously is our interest when it comes to the defense of the
14:35state of Israel and the future of the state of Israel.
14:37And we are very serious about the fact that at this point in time, diplomatically, there
14:43is no path that we see to solving the ballistic missile issue, the proxy issues, and also we
14:50have concerns when it comes to the nuclear issue, okay?
14:52So we are not going to change our position on that.
14:54We are, as I told you, we appreciate what the U.S. has done for Israel in many ways, including
15:01in the military sphere, and we are going to coordinate with the administration the negotiations
15:06in the future to try to maximize the results that we can get out of this effort.
15:12But at the end of the day, if the diplomatic efforts do not satisfy us, we always remain,
15:21for ourselves, our right for self-defense.
15:23Because Parasix, and I'm sure you've read Parasix, is Parasix an absolute surrender by the United
15:31States of America, where the U.S. undertakes with regional partners to develop a definitive
15:37mutually agreed plan with at least $300 billion for the reconstruction and economic development
15:44of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
15:46So for 47 years, sanctions are put on Iran, Iran is choked, their economy comes down to
15:52some $350-odd billion, and then $300 billion will be pumped into that economy, plus the
15:58$2 million per ship crossing Strait of Hormuz, plus the money that was frozen that will be
16:03given to them.
16:04And you believe that?
16:04Iran will be amongst the richest countries in the region, if not the world.
16:07First of all, first of all, Iran is a very rich country, but their poor leadership hasn't
16:12been able to translate the amazing richness in resources into prosperity, because they
16:18have been enslaving the resources of Iran.
16:22Instead of giving it to the Iranian people, they have built this machinery of destruction
16:26and aggression in the region.
16:27So if they continue with that, they won't enjoy any money, because President Trump said only
16:33yesterday that, first of all, America is going to put not even 10 cents in this, okay?
16:39And this is a voluntary, it's a voluntary issue.
16:44If the Gulf countries are not satisfied, they won't put money.
16:49So at the end of the day, Iran will have to continue relying on its own resources.
16:53And it's up to them whether to come back to their senses.
16:57Gulf countries will pay just not to be bombed.
17:00How?
17:00Yeah, you think so?
17:01Will they not?
17:02They'd rather have economic prosperity.
17:04The Qataris have been doing that.
17:06I agree with you.
17:07They have been surrendering to Iran.
17:09They have been surrendering to radicalism.
17:11They are playing, we think, and here we also disagree with the United States, they are playing
17:16a very negative role when it comes to the spread of radicalism.
17:20And we think that, no doubt, they will surrender to the Iranians.
17:24Okay?
17:24They've done it in the past.
17:25But different Gulf countries are going to have different approaches.
17:29And it depends mainly on how they prepare themselves against the Iranian threat.
17:34Okay.
17:34I think that we have seen during this war that countries like the UAE and others are building
17:40their defenses, are building infrastructure to circumvent the straits.
17:45So, permit me a 30-second digression.
17:48The JCPOA that President Trump threw out of the window, joint comprehensive plan of action,
17:54and he said greenback dollars were filled in suitcases and given to Iran.
17:59Reports in the US seem to indicate that was about $50 billion of frozen funds that was given
18:04to Iran, reports indicate, in JCPOA.
18:07Now, $300 billion.
18:09At the first stage.
18:10At the first stage.
18:10In the first stage.
18:11Now, $300 billion.
18:13I'll tell you what's the difference.
18:14It's very clear.
18:15It's very simple.
18:17A, the JCPOA was giving Iran a promised path to an industrial complex of centrifuges that
18:28would allow them, after the sunset of around 15 and 20 years, to break out to a nuclear
18:34arsenal of maybe 100 or 200 bombs within weeks.
18:38And at that point, only a military option that, you know, that we don't know whether
18:44it would be possible, would have been able to neutralize that.
18:48So, we were against that agreement because not only it has relieved sanctions on Iran,
18:54but it's given an assured path to a nuclear arsenal.
18:58Okay?
18:59Now, we are in a completely different situation.
19:02First of all, there is a credible military threat because Iran has paid a price for the
19:09refusal to cooperate with the international community.
19:12They have paid a trillion dollars for that.
19:15Okay?
19:15The leader was killed.
19:18The military brass were killed.
19:20Their armies were destroyed.
19:21They were destroyed.
19:21They were destroyed.
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