- 1 day ago
The Trinamool Congress in West Bengal is facing a severe internal crisis characterised by mass absenteeism, resignations, and the expulsion of two lawmakers following allegations of forged signatures.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savan.
00:05Trinamool Congress Supremo, Mamata Banerjee has expelled two party MLAs,
00:10Ritavarata Bandopadhyay and Sandeepan Saha from the party.
00:14And this expulsion comes after Bandopadhyay and Saha raised allegations about fake signatures
00:20and appointment of party leader or leader of opposition, deputy leader and chief whip in the assembly.
00:27Saha, in fact, went on record to allege due process is not being followed
00:32and party leaders are not being heard by the party high command.
00:37But this no longer is an internal party matter.
00:40The CID or the Criminal Investigation Department of the West Bengal Police,
00:44they have launched an independent investigation and teams have even reached party MP and General Secretary Abhishek Banerjee's residence.
00:51And this indicates that there's serious trouble in the TMC ranks.
00:57The Diamond Harbour model was already in the line of fire, but Mamata Banerjee is facing fire on multiple fronts.
01:04For example, on the 31st of May, a scheduled meeting of the newly elected TMC MLAs had to be called
01:11off
01:11after only 20 of the 80 party MLAs attended this meeting.
01:16This was a meeting that was called at Mamata Banerjee's residence, but this isn't a one-off.
01:22On the 20th of May, of the 80 MLAs of the Trimul Congress, only 35 turned up for a TMC
01:30sit-in or a dharna protest
01:32near Ambedkar statue in the Bengal Assembly premises.
01:37This was a dharna or a sit-in against post-pole violence and hawker eviction drive in Bengal.
01:47Again, this isn't the only such instance where a large number of party MLAs, elected MLAs, newly elected MLAs have
01:56stayed away
01:57from crucial meetings called by Mamata Banerjee.
02:00And then there have been a spate of resignations in Bengal.
02:04On the 31st of May, the Diamond Harbour Municipal Board had to be dissolved after nine TMC councillors quit.
02:11Then on the 29th of May, Abhijit Majumdar, the Assam chief of the Trimul Congress, he put in his papers.
02:19He resigned from TMC.
02:20Just two days earlier, on the 27th of May, TMC MP Kakoli Ghosh Dastidar, she stepped down as the president
02:29of All India,
02:30Trimul Mahila Congress.
02:32We'll talk about what's happening.
02:35Is there a mutiny in Mamata's ranks in Bengal?
02:38That's our top focus story.
02:40This comes at a time when Abhishek Banerjee was targeted and there's a full-on war of words between the
02:46BJP and the TMC.
02:48The TMC says this is Gunda Raj of the Shubhendu Adhikari government.
02:52The BJP hits right back and says this is manifestation of people's anger against the Trimul Congress and especially Abhishek
02:59Banerjee.
03:00That's coming up.
03:01Coming up at 8.30 tonight, Nepal's newly elected Prime Minister has stirred a harness nest.
03:07In his first parliament speech, Nepal's newly elected Prime Minister Balain Shah, he said that territorial encroachments along the India
03:17-Nepal border, it's not a one-sided issue.
03:20He said both countries are occupying land that's claimed by the other.
03:25Now, this may be seen as an honest admission and perhaps it removes that staunch nationalism from the discussion.
03:33But what he went on to say has stirred a harness nest.
03:38He then went on to say that China and the United Kingdom should take an interest in the border issue
03:44or words to that effect.
03:45Why should China and UK, and why UK, why should they be involved in what's happening here?
03:54Any issue between two brother nations has to be sorted out bilaterally.
03:59And this is where multiple red flags have gone up.
04:03Also, US bombs, missile launch sites and radar stations on Qashem Islands and Iran targets a US base or attempts
04:12to target a US base in Kuwait.
04:14Kuwait said, of course, those missiles were intercepted.
04:18Both sides insist there is a ceasefire that remains in place.
04:21But just look at that ceasefire, is it only in name?
04:25And that image that you see on your television screen, Israel launched a fierce attack deeper inside Lebanon.
04:32And Israel has taken control of a 900-year-old fort in the southern part of Lebanon.
04:38This is Beaufort.
04:39It's a 900-year-old fort which was a part of the Crusades.
04:43This is where the Christian forces had assembled before they went on for another attack.
04:50Beaufort.
04:51Now, the question is, is war about to flare up once again in West Asia?
04:57We get to that story.
04:58But first, our top story from Bengal.
05:02Former West Bengal Chief Minister, Mamata Banerjee, the TMC Supremo, she's expelled two party MLAs,
05:09even as there is an intense conversation about mutiny in her ranks.
05:14Sandeepan Saha and Ritabrata Banerjee, they're the two MLAs who've been expelled on a day,
05:20or a day after nearly 61 of 80 elected MLAs skipped a very crucial MLA meeting called in Kolkata.
05:28And this isn't the only trouble within the TMC.
05:31The Bengal CID is now investigating a complaint filed by Saha and Banerjee in connection with these alleged fake signatures
05:38case involving TMC's endorsement of Chattopadhyay as leader of opposition in the State Assembly.
05:45Saha, in fact, spoke of absence of any consultation process or due process in the appointment of the party leader
05:53or LOP or deputy leader or even the chief whip.
06:06If a bruising electoral defeat wasn't enough, the Trinamul Congress is now staring at turmoil within the party as well.
06:16Mamata Banerjee was forced to cancel a meeting on Sunday due to poor turnout.
06:20The meeting convened at Mamata's Kalighart residence in the backdrop of the attacks on party leaders was skipped by 60
06:28MLAs.
06:30Mamata Banerjee has alleged a ploy by the BJP to turn her party MLAs against her.
06:49The absenteeism only adds to the party's troubles.
06:52The CID is probing alleged discrepancies in TMC MLA's signatures in a party letter to the Assembly Secretariat, nominating the
06:59leader of opposition.
07:01The probe team has summoned TMC MP Abhishek Banerjee for questioning.
07:05The TMC has now expelled two of its MLAs, Rita Brita Banerjee and Sandeep Ansaha, who sounded alarm over the
07:12fake signatures.
07:15There was no resolution about the legislative party or the LOP or any other post on 6th.
07:21On 19th, we were asked when we were signing to put the data 6th.
07:25We had done that.
07:26But when we were signing, we saw many MLAs are not present whose names are appearing in the book.
07:32So we thought it is necessary.
07:56If you succeed, the signature is all right.
07:59Then we have enough strength to get the most of opposition leader.
08:08The feud within TMC comes days after the party saw a massive exodus, with 127 TMC councillors resigning across 11
08:17civic bodies.
08:18The TMC has already lost majority in six municipal boards.
08:24In Bhatpada municipality, 30 out of 35 councillors have resigned.
08:29In Hali Shohar municipality, 16 out of 23 councillors have quit.
08:34And in Kachrapada municipality, 14 councillors have stepped down, signalling a major crack within the TMC's local structure.
08:42But the setbacks do not end there.
08:45Last week, senior TMC leader Kakoli Ghosh Tastidar resigned as president of the All India Trinamul Mahilla Congress.
08:53Adding to the political buzz, Kakoli Ghosh, along with several TMC MLAs, attended Chief Minister Suvendu Adhikari's meeting with opposition
09:00leaders on administrative work.
09:15With legislators skipping meetings, councillors quitting and leaders battling a CID probe,
09:21the Trinamul Congress is facing its most turbulent phase yet.
09:26Growing fissures within the party are no longer just speculation.
09:31The question is whether Mamata Banerji is losing her grip on the TMC,
09:35or have long existing internal divisions surfaced now that the party is no longer in power?
09:48And things started going downhill since the election results.
09:52But let me just tell you how the past one week has unfolded for the TMC.
09:57So on the 26th of May, for example, six TMC MLAs attended an administrative meeting that was led by Chief
10:05Minister Suvendu Adhikari.
10:06Then on 27th of May, Kakoli Ghosh Tastidar, she stepped down as the TMC Mahila Congress Chief.
10:1428th of May, former Rajasabha MP Shantanu Sen put in his papers.
10:1929th of May, State Unit Chief of Assam, Abhijit Majumdar, he put in his papers.
10:25Then 31st of May, some say 60, some say 61 MLAs, they skipped Mamata's MLA meet.
10:32June 1st, Ritabrata Sen, Ritabrata Banerji and Sandeepan Saha, they've been expelled over what many argue was their complaint that
10:42signatures were forged.
10:44The TMC, of course, has launched a swift counter-attack.
10:48TMC says democracy is under attack in Bengal.
10:52They say look at the manner in which Abhishek Banerji was targeted.
10:57Look at the manner in which eggs were pelted at him, rowdy elements tried to target him, how stones were
11:04pelted at him.
11:05So much so, and look at those images.
11:08Mamata Banerji says BJP is now threatening doctors so that Abhishek Banerji is not given proper treatment.
11:16In fact, she says it was only after the pressure that was mounted by the Trinambool Congress that he was
11:23permitted to go.
11:24She says hospitals will be responsible should something happen to him.
11:27But let me now throw it open for a wider discussion of what's happening in the TMC ranks in Bengal.
11:34Joining me on this show is Shukha Mukherjee.
11:36She's a respected political commentator.
11:38Tawseep Ahmed Khan joins us on the show.
11:42He's an advocate and a political analyst also with us to represent the BJP on this very serious charge that
11:47the TMC is now leveling.
11:49The man in which Abhishek Banerji was targeted is Tuhin Sinha representing the Bharatiya Janata Party.
11:55But Shukha Mukherjee, let me begin by asking you.
11:57In less than a month, 127 councillors have put in their papers.
12:03Six boards have slipped out of TMC's control.
12:06Senior leaders are quitting key posts in the party.
12:09Two MLAs have been expelled.
12:11You've studied Bengal very closely.
12:14You've covered it very closely.
12:15What is your analysis?
12:17Is this perhaps the biggest rebellion that Mamta Banerjee is facing since coming to power in 2011?
12:23How do you see these developments?
12:26I do see this as a shakeout within the Trinambool Congress.
12:33And one that was probably very urgently needed because the Trinambool Congress, you know, I'm constantly reminded by the kind
12:46of events that you listed.
12:48I'm constantly reminded of something that an old Congress leader who then later joined Mamta Banerjee, Shubrata Mukherjee, he was
12:59a trade unionist, and then became the mayor and then a minister.
13:03So I asked him, why did you move?
13:06So he said, well, you know, for political reasons.
13:09And then I said, how do you see the Trinambool Party?
13:12Do you think it's a real party?
13:14To which his answer was, no, it is a trade which is very strange.
13:20It has no roots.
13:22But a party with no roots came from 2011 to 2026?
13:27Yep.
13:27And what you're seeing now is precisely that.
13:31Why?
13:32Because look at the fact that this is a party which ought to have by now very strong roots somewhere
13:43embedded in the political soil of Bengal.
13:48What do you see?
13:50Counselors who came in are moving out.
13:55Ritabruta Banerjee, for that matter, came in from the CPM, is moving out.
14:00There are others who are going to do the same thing.
14:03They are all going to do this.
14:04They're all waiting to, in some way, they're kind of testing the situation and saying where and how they will
14:14go and what they will do.
14:16Why?
14:16Because the Trinambool Congress, unlike the Congress, or for that matter, the BJP, does not have an ideological base.
14:26It stands for only one thing, which is that it is a party mostly in opposition to everybody else.
14:36Let me quickly get Tawseef into this conversation.
14:40Tawseef, do you agree with Shikha Mukherjee's assessment?
14:44I mean, the fact that 127 councillors have put in their papers, six boards have slipped out of TMC control,
14:50the kind of rebellion, as some say, Mamata Banerjee is facing.
14:54Is this the strongest, you know, low attendance in party meetings, only 20 of 80 elected MLAs if they show
15:01up and this is happening repeatedly.
15:03Is this a temporary post-election shock or a deeper organizational crisis in the ranks?
15:12No, to me, this is actually a deeper internal crisis.
15:19This is happening repeatedly, as you yourself said.
15:22In fact, we heard today Kunal Ghosh making a public appeal to the group of MLAs who are holding meeting
15:30in Gateway Hotel.
15:32There's a talk that is going on of more than 50 MLAs who will, in block, you know, break away
15:39from the Tirmamul and who will claim themselves to be the, you know, original Tirmamul.
15:44The real Tirmamul.
15:45And will present the, you know, they will present the proposal in the assembly to the speaker, being given, you
15:52know, the position of the leader of opposition and so on and so forth.
15:55Therefore, there's a deep crisis within the party.
15:59The party is run, of course, by Mahometa Banerjee and her nephew.
16:04And they should really think about what they're going to do.
16:08And I don't think there's nothing much in their hand.
16:12You see, I ask a very basic question, Gaurav.
16:14You see, this current crisis regarding the letter that was submitted before the speaker,
16:22the question, the question of, you know, so many MLAs who have not, whose signatures were forged.
16:29What was the need for this?
16:31I ask this question.
16:33If you call yourself a national party.
16:36A democratic party.
16:37You know, you've been.
16:38Why was due process not followed is the question you're asking.
16:40Correct.
16:41Correct.
16:42Correct.
16:42What was the need for this?
16:43I mean, and now the case has ultimately landed up in the hand of CID.
16:48CID is investigating the matter.
16:50Trinamul MLAs have gone and complained to the speaker and where the chief minister was also present that these were
16:58not their signatures.
16:59So what was the need for the party to, in such a hurry, to write somebody's name in block letter
17:07and just present it without obtaining their permission whether they wanted to sign the letter or not?
17:11It's a deep, deep crisis inside the party.
17:13And that's that letter that we are putting out on your television screen for our viewers to see.
17:16That's a very pertinent point you ask.
17:18And let me see if we can, you know, get some answers on this also.
17:21But that other question that you raised or that point that you raised, that 50 of 80 could break away
17:28and say, we are the real Trinamul Congress.
17:31Do you, Sina, when something like this happened in another state, the leader of that newly splintered group that said,
17:38we are the real party, they said, we are the real party.
17:42So is your party the maha shakti even in Bengal after Maharashtra, sir?
17:48Well, good evening, Gaurav.
17:49Good evening, everybody.
17:50Even before I come to TMC, let me congratulate all the 35, you know, ministers and ministers of state who
17:57have been sworn in today as, you know, in West Bengal.
18:01And look at the beauty of that list.
18:03On the one hand, you have the erudite Swatandas Gupta.
18:06And on the other hand, you have Kalita Maju, an ex-Hausel.
18:09Now, this is where, you know, the BJP is so, so different from TMC, where, you know, you had to
18:16be a goon.
18:17You had to be a scamster to survive.
18:20Even my friend Tawseev had to eventually contest as an independent.
18:23He couldn't, you know, survive in the TMC because he's a decent guy.
18:28You know, so that explains why the TMC will collapse because of the sins which it has perpetrated over the
18:36last 15 years.
18:37We don't need to do anything about it.
18:39You know, let me...
18:40So, you are not the Mahashakti in Bengal, like the Mahashakti in Maharashtra.
18:44I have been very vocal about this.
18:46The TMC is temperamentally unfit to exist in a modern democracy.
18:50So, most of these people don't qualify to come to the BJP.
18:54They will go back to the Congress Party from where they come.
18:56They will go back to the CPI and from where they come.
18:59Because TMC, as my previous speaker was mentioning, as Shikhaji was mentioning, is not an original party.
19:06It was formed by embezzling members from other parties and they will go back to their original parties.
19:11But one very important point which I wish to make over here is, you know, even DMK has lost elections.
19:18Do you see that kind of anger against Stalin?
19:21No, you don't see.
19:22Even, you know, even Lalu Yadav had presided over a jungle raj.
19:26Lalu Yadav was never treated in this manner.
19:28The problem with TMC leaders is that they, you know, fail to behave like public leaders.
19:34They tend to behave like goons.
19:36Even today, if Abhishek Banerjee apologizes to the people of Bengal, if he says yes, then he...
19:41committed some mistakes and we will rectify them.
19:44You know, people of India, people of Bengal have a very big heart.
19:48They will certainly, you know, this anger will subside somewhat.
19:51So, if the choice is up to TMC...
19:52Let me get Shikha Mukherjee to respond.
19:54You've raised a pertinent point and so has Tawseef.
19:57And Shikha Mukherjee, I want you to weigh in on this.
20:00Only 20 of 80 MLAs attended Mamata Banerjee's May 31 meeting.
20:05That's point one.
20:06Point two, this current meeting that Tawseef also refers to and in Bengal, everyone's
20:11talking about not just a vertical split in TMC, but 50 of 80 wanting to say that we are
20:18the real TMC and approaching, you know, the speaker with that.
20:22Now, what does...
20:24Should this happen?
20:25What does this indicate about the TMC leadership if three-fourths of newly elected MLAs are staying
20:33away from meetings and repeatedly, madam?
20:36Well, you know, I mean, it's very, very interesting because if they are staying away, you know,
20:42let me, let's, let's look at something else.
20:4750 of 80 MLAs are not attending the meeting.
20:55Clearly, they want to distance themselves from Mamata Banerjee.
20:59Let's be very clear.
21:00Mamata Banerjee or Abhishek Banerjee or both?
21:02In your view, ma'am.
21:05Mamata Banerjee, because they didn't attend her meeting, not Abhishek Banerjee's meeting.
21:11They're distancing themselves from Mamata Banerjee, who represents, who is the founder,
21:18the icon, everything of the Trinomal Congress.
21:22It is her party.
21:23She founded it.
21:24So they're distancing themselves from the Trinomal Congress by not attending her meeting.
21:33They're snubbing her.
21:34They're delivering a message that we don't have confidence in your leadership.
21:39That is what the message is.
21:42The second thing is, that's where it becomes really interesting.
21:4650 of these people.
21:49The rumor is, it's not certain as yet, but 50 of these people are rumored to be wanting to break
21:56away.
21:56Now, that does give them the chance to form a new party.
22:00What is interesting is, how many of these would be from the 40 Muslims who are in the Trinomal Congress?
22:12Because that's the other story, that's the other narrative that is also going on.
22:18That the Trinomal Congress represents nobody except for the Muslim population.
22:26Not true.
22:27Factually not true.
22:28But there is this narrative about who the Trinomal Congress represents.
22:34The truth is that if you look at the numbers, Congress and the CPM also represent only the Muslim population.
22:40Having said that, basically what is happening is that there are people who are wanting to distance themselves from Mamata
22:50Banerjee, who is the Trinomal Congress.
22:56And the only way they can do that is by not attending a meeting, by delivering a message that we
23:01have no confidence anymore in your leadership.
23:04Abhishek Banerjee is the scapegoat.
23:07He's an excuse.
23:08He's the scapegoat.
23:11Interesting, because so far the impression is, because Mamata was, you know, being lenient towards whatever he was doing.
23:19Dependent on him.
23:21Yes.
23:21And therefore, sorry, maybe what I meant was a sacrificial lamb, not the scapegoat.
23:29But whatever, however it is, Abhishek Banerjee is not the target.
23:34Let's be very clear.
23:36Abhishek Banerjee, if I assume that Abhishek Banerjee is the target, then I would have to assume that all these
23:46people would come rushing back and become Trinomal loyalists the day Abhishek Banerjee is chucked out of the party.
23:56Very interesting, but all accounts, Mamata Banerjee is, you know, defending him very closely, but, you know, Tawsi, for a
24:02moment, I want you to wear your legal hat, your lawyer's hat, and not your political hat as somebody who,
24:08you know, wants to contest elections or contested elections.
24:11How significant is this fake signature controversy now?
24:16Is it a procedural lapse that's been politicized?
24:20Or does it raise serious questions about internal functioning within the TMC?
24:23And now, there's a criminal investigation that is currently underway.
24:27So, what would this mean for either Abhishek Banerjee or Mamata Banerjee?
24:33Because of this signature, Ra, would not have been significant if there was no complaint at all from those whose
24:41name appeared.
24:41Within the ranks.
24:42Within the ranks.
24:43No, there are people coming, I mean, those who have put the signature, they are coming openly and saying that
24:49I was asked to sign on the paper on a backdate letter.
24:53I was present on 19th and I was asked to sign on a letter dated 6th May.
24:58Therefore, you know, when a person who himself says that this is not my signature, or that I did not
25:05authorize anyone to put my name there, then it becomes a question.
25:09It becomes an offense under the law.
25:11And that is why CID is investigating the matter.
25:14If the matter is proven, then yes, there will be legal records taken against those who presented the letter or
25:22those who are responsible in obtaining the signature.
25:25So, it is not, it is not, you cannot just, you know, wash it off so easily.
25:30There is a legal hurdle.
25:32There's a legal offense.
25:33There's an allegation of offense of committing of illegal offense there.
25:38And therefore, it will have a bearing on the functioning of the party.
25:42It raises, it already has raised a serious question.
25:44And we see this has now become an excuse for those who met the speaker and the chief minister, you
25:51know, weeks ago, to come out openly and say that party was not, you know, working on an ethical way.
25:58This was unethical to, you know, obtain signature in this manner.
26:01And therefore, we are parting away from the Tirunamul.
26:04Therefore, we see this new group emerging who is calling themselves, you know, holier than thou.
26:09So, this really is a big crisis that Mohantar Banerjee and Abhishek Banerjee is facing today.
26:14So, it's a big crisis and not the only big crisis that they're facing.
26:18But in midst of it, when Abhishek Banerjee goes out, he's targeted.
26:22And it's not just eggs that are pelted, but stones that are pelted.
26:26And Tuhin Sina, this is where the Tirunamul Congress launches a frontal attack on the BJP saying, this is gundaism.
26:34This is not Bhai Mukht Sarkar that BJP promised.
26:41Well, you know, Gaurav, I am told that that area where Abhishek Banerjee was unfortunately attacked has 35 TMC corporators.
26:53Unfortunately, you know, not one corporator deemed it necessary to accompany Abhishek Banerjee,
26:59which only shows that probably, you know, the kind of fear they had unleashed upon the people of Bengal,
27:04they also had unleashed upon their own party members.
27:06That is not to condone, that is not to condone the attack.
27:10Any attack is condemnable and the law will take its own course.
27:13To my understanding, there are a few TMC, you know, workers also who have been arrested.
27:18So, we will know who was behind the attack.
27:21But at the same time, we have people like Madan Mitra, a sitting MLA who is still threatening the police,
27:27saying that, you know, the moment the CFPF goes off, you see what we do to you.
27:31So, if this is the attitude, like I said, you know, we have seen Bundaraj before in Uttar Pradesh and
27:37Bihar.
27:38But, you know, when you lose an election, people expect to see a basic humility, a certain repentance.
27:44If TMC does not show that, if it keeps resorting to fresh gimmicks, you know, that is only, I am
27:50afraid, going to infuriate people further.
27:52Okay, Shikha Mukherjee, is that how you also look at it?
27:56Because Shamik Bhattacharya went on to say, this is Trinamool attacking Trinamool.
28:02How do you see this Shunarpur attack?
28:05Is this infighting in the ranks?
28:08Or is this that political inheritance that the party that wins, the losing party, their carder, their workers, they are
28:16attacked?
28:16Of course, we also have statistics of what happened in 2021, including, unfortunately, rapes and arson and murders and attempted
28:25murders of the losing side, BJP Carder, in 2021.
28:29But do you see this as that political violence or is this different?
28:35I think the modus operandi of this violence is different.
28:42I've never seen eggs being chucked around like this.
28:44But having said that, I think the two things need to be very, one has to be very clear.
28:53Yes, the Shunarpur incident is very disturbing because it was in a narrow lane.
29:01And it was not, I mean, it was, it was a risk that Abhishek Banerjee took and perhaps he had
29:08his own political reasons for taking that risk.
29:11And having taken that risk, the nature of the attack suggests that there was, you don't have rotten eggs in
29:19your hand anyway.
29:22So obviously there was some kind of preparation because they in any case knew that he was going to turn
29:27up at that point.
29:27So is this the Trinavun or is this the BNK?
29:31Now, it becomes very fluid at this point.
29:35In West Bengal, we have seen from 2011 onwards, 2011, which is when Mamata Banerjee won the first election,
29:44you kind of see this fluidity emerging where at the bottom of the pyramid,
29:51at the bottom of the so-called grassroots of the parties, the shifts begin to happen within hours.
30:01And the popular saying in Bengal now is these are the four-hour BJP types.
30:07In other words, within four hours of the counting, they'd all shifted over to the BJP.
30:13Shomig Bhattacharya's statement is a kind of cover for both the things,
30:18which is that blame it on the Trinavun because these people probably did belong to the Trinavun at one point
30:24in time.
30:24It's still very fluid as to which party they belong to today.
30:28Are they the BJP's, hardcore people?
30:31Or Mamata says that these are outsiders and very few of the locals were involved.
30:37But Shomig Bhattacharya is saying that these are obviously locals.
30:41And they belong to the Trinavun Congress.
30:44And DMC, yes.
30:45Now, when things get really fluid, which is just about now,
30:50when you have the Trinavun people moving away and the BJP acquiring them in some way or the other,
30:59and this is done at the absolute local level,
31:02therefore it becomes very important for a new party to acquire these people.
31:08That's what the Trinavun acquired in 2011 and continued to acquire over a period of time.
31:16Okay.
31:16I think that's...
31:17And 2021, if you notice, when 2020 actually,
31:212020 when the defection started happening on a massive scale and it seemed that, you know,
31:26the Trinavun was falling apart.
31:29The situation in 2021, if I may, the kind of crimes against women that took place,
31:35you know, rapes and arson and murders and attempted murders
31:38and thousands being forced to flee North Bengal going into Assam,
31:43that Assam Chief Minister Himant Biswas Sarma also spoke of.
31:46Was the situation any different in 2026 in your view, since you're there?
31:51It's still emerging.
31:54And yes, people are...
31:56And I do know for a fact that people, Trinavun people,
32:00are leaving the places where they live because they need to move out,
32:04because they're afraid of their own security.
32:06And that starts on happening from the force of me itself.
32:09So this moving out is something that is a part of the so-called peaceful transition of power in Bengal.
32:19Okay, Tawseef, two things here.
32:22Read the women, read the women about the women.
32:25Now, in some pockets, I'm hearing reports of women being harassed,
32:30especially if they're wearing burqas.
32:33Especially if they have their heads covered in a particular way.
32:37And that is very disturbed.
32:39Yes, that should never happen.
32:40That should never happen.
32:42And, you know, we'll ask our reporters to verify these reports that you mentioned.
32:47Tawseef, two things here.
32:50One, this culture of violence in Bengal.
32:52And two, the crackdown within the TMC on its party leaders.
32:58You know, the timing of crackdown or expulsion of Sandeepan Saha and Ritabrata Banerji.
33:05Just after their complaint, their alleged complaint on alleged force, forged signatures on, you know,
33:14Sonvodeep Chattopadhyay being appointed leader of opposition.
33:18Now, is this punishment of indiscipline?
33:21Or is this breaking that code, that omerta?
33:24That cannot be spoken publicly.
33:26You've spoken, so you're expelled.
33:30Gaurav, you see, I have a very simple theory.
33:33In Hindi, we say,
33:38Therefore, with MLA's like Ritabrata and Sandeepan Saha,
33:42I do not agree with what they are doing now.
33:44Why I say this?
33:45Because party trusted them.
33:47Party gave them the ticket.
33:49Party gave them the position.
33:51All through, for the last 15 years, they have been enjoying the power.
33:54And all of a sudden, after the fall of the party, they are taking this suit.
33:58So, so far, Mohameda Banerjee is complaining about people like them.
34:04I totally agree with what Mohameda Banerjee is saying.
34:07Okay.
34:07But when people talk about culture of violence in Bengal politics,
34:13I don't understand for how long can one blame the CPM or Congress rule from the previous regime
34:22for to continue this violence culture.
34:26I am so happy that at least during the election, we saw that there was, there was zero death.
34:33During the election till the date of counting in the evening, there was zero death.
34:39But imagine at the same time, the deployment of central forces was being criticized so extensively.
34:46You know, virtually as if Bengal was being turned into a police state.
34:49If the end result to Hinsina was zero deaths and no pole violence, what does that indicate?
34:56Point one.
34:56But point two, respond to the fact, Shikha Mughalji raises a very, very disturbing point
35:02that in some pockets, according to her, women, in case they are wearing a certain,
35:07if they are dressed in a certain way, they are now being targeted.
35:12Well, Gaurav, we have a reputation of restoring law and order wherever, you know, there was
35:19So, I clearly don't see BJP karekartas doing that.
35:26If, you know, karekartas from other parties are impersonating as BJP karekartas,
35:33they will be found out very soon.
35:34And if at all, any recent import to the party is indulging in that, obviously the strictest
35:40action will be taken against that person.
35:43But per se, you know, you should go by a track record.
35:46We are the ones who have restored law and order in situations where, you know, some of
35:51the parties have really presided over a complete collapse of law and order.
35:55So, I don't think, I think it's premature to blame the BJP.
35:59Our state leaders have been very vocal about it.
36:01Shamik Bhattacharya ji has been very vocal about it.
36:03We don't support this violence.
36:05And in the next few days, if it persists, if at all, you will see big crackdown.
36:10But in the last…
36:11Shikha Mukherjee, you wanted to come in?
36:13Last 30 seconds that I have on this part.
36:14Tuhin, I'm coming back to you.
36:15Shikha Mukherjee, you wanted to come in?
36:16Manila, I can only ask Tuhin a horrible question, which is, what is happening in Manipur?
36:24Okay.
36:24So, Manipur is another debate.
36:26I'll come to Manipur.
36:27I'm staying on the story right now because I have to go to the other big story.
36:31The other big story we're tracking here on India today and Shikha Mukherjee, the story today very clearly right now
36:37is the situation in Bengal and what's happening in Bengal.
36:40But I want to thank all my guests.
36:42Weeks after a flare-up over Kailash Mansur, over Yatra or the use of the Lipu Lake pass, Nepal's Prime
36:49Minister Balain Shah has reopened that border debate with India.
36:53In his first address in the parliament in Nepal, he spoke of alleged encroachments on both sides, saying both countries
37:02had encroached upon each other's territory.
37:04He called for a negotiated settlement of the dispute.
37:07But this remark, it's revived the focus once again on the Kalapani, Lipu Lake and Limpidhurya region, most sensitive when
37:16it comes to India-Nepal ties.
37:17Remember, India and Nepal otherwise have very, very warm civilizational ties.
37:23In fact, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he had visited Nepal in his address to the parliament, he said India
37:29hadn't won a single war where Nepal hadn't shed blood.
37:32Then that's a very big statement to make. You know, between India and Nepal, there's roti beti ka saath.
37:38You know, it's like two brother countries.
37:41But Katmandu has since issued a clarification.
37:44They said they have comments that have triggered a discussion on the dispute, which, of course, now will either lead
37:52to a solution or a flare-up.
37:54Especially the call that China and UK must be roped in.
37:59Why? We get you more in this report.
38:07In his very first address to parliament since assuming office, Nepal's Prime Minister, Balender Shah, raked up border disputes with
38:15India.
38:16Balender Shah claimed that after becoming Prime Minister, he has learnt that Nepal and India have encroached each other's land.
38:27After becoming Prime Minister, I came to know that not only has India encroached on Nepal's land, but Nepal has
38:34also encroached on India's land in multiple places.
38:37Both the countries have reached out to each other as friends, and we will resolve the situation.
38:48The statement has reignited the long-running border dispute between the two neighbours involving Limpia Dura and Kalapani, which remains
38:57a sore point in bilateral ties.
38:59Interment is that the territories are part of Uttarakhand and has said that the issue should be addressed through dialogue.
39:06The Nepal Prime Minister in his parliament speech said both countries should seek the help of historians, surveyors and experts
39:14to resolve the issue.
39:16He also told lawmakers that Kathmandu has taken up the matter in China and the United Kingdom.
39:22We have spoken to both India and China.
39:26The government will also raise the matter with the UK to find a solution, since the origin of the issue
39:31is to British India.
39:39Hours later, Nepal's foreign ministry clarified that Balendra Shah's comments were related to no man's land encroachments and cross-border
39:48occupation between the two countries rather than any territorial claims.
39:52The ministry also said that there are possibilities that land being used by people on the Indian side may lie
40:00in Nepalese territory and vice versa.
40:03This comes weeks after Nepal objected to the upcoming Kailash Mansarovaryatra through the long-established Lipu Lake Pass.
40:12India has rejected the objection terming Nepal's claims a unilateral artificial enlargement and calling them untenable.
40:20Bureau Report, India Today.
40:50How would you see this statement in Parliament, sir?
40:55I think, Gaurav, this is an excellent statement.
41:00In one's talk, Balen Shah has reduced the temperature of this hyper-nationalism that people were talking about in that
41:11boundary issue between India and Nepal to a technical point.
41:15And, you know, technically, the change is that he has accepted that there could be problems.
41:23That's the main thing.
41:25And there could be problems both on Nepal's side and the Indian side.
41:28And he has given space now for the groups, the expert committee groups, to get together to sort out these
41:36technical issues.
41:36And I think India must respond with confidence, not in security, Gaurav.
41:45The Himalayas need stability, not rhetorical escalation.
41:49And that's something I remember talking about.
41:52And Nepal and India are too closely connected to become adversarial states.
41:57Oh, absolutely.
41:59But tell me this.
42:00So, we've had political commentator and analyst, Professor Esdi Muni.
42:04He said that Nepal's Prime Minister Balain Shah deserves to be congratulated or words to this effect.
42:09To, you know, that he accepted that India and Nepal, the boundary issue, isn't a one-sided affair.
42:17Now, now that this has been acknowledged, you know, the complexities on both sides, will it enable the people on
42:25both sides who have very warm relations towards each other, you know, Roti Beti Ka Saath, as you had once
42:32told me, does this help, you know, move towards a durable solution?
42:37Is there a desire on both sides to find a solution?
42:44Absolutely, Gaurav.
42:45Let me explain this to you.
42:46When the Nepal Prime Minister referred to technical issues along the India-Nepal border, he was speaking about the practical
42:55and cartographic complications that arise along a long, open, and historically evolving Himalayan border.
43:04You see, we take our background from the Treaty of Soghali, 1864, right?
43:10So, when we, rather, 1816, and then, of course, the handing over of the Madesh districts in 1864.
43:19But the main issue is that one has to understand that India-Nepal border is not a militarized Cold War
43:27border.
43:27It is almost 1,850 kilometers long, open to free movement, interwoven with villages, farms, rivers, communities, forests that have
43:39been living together for centuries, Gaurav.
43:41And that's something that I said in my book also, you know, when I talked of bridging borders, that this
43:49was the border I was talking about, that we need to bridge it.
43:51In many sectors, people cross daily for trade, for farming, for employment, for family relationships.
43:58That's why they talk of what we call, the beti, roti khanishnath.
44:05Yes, but tell me this, the issue of Lippu Lake, and Kalapani, and Limpiduria, and we are putting out those
44:13places on the map, India says this is artificial enlargement of Nepal's territorial claims.
44:19You've been our defense attache in Nepal, and in a very difficult situation.
44:25How difficult will it be to reconcile the two very different narratives in the two countries now?
44:36You know, Gaurav, that's what I want to talk to you about.
44:39I wanted to tell you that there are issues with regard to the boundary pillars.
44:44Some of the boundary pillars were placed over decades, many during the British era.
44:50Some have shifted, eroded, disappeared, damaged due to floods, and due to river coasts changing, landslides, human activity.
44:59And once a pillar moves or disappears, local disagreement naturally emerge, you know, regarding the alignment of the boundary.
45:09The second issue relates to the rivers.
45:11The present movement of the Kali River is the 18th such shift that has taken place in the mountain rivers.
45:2118th such shift.
45:22So in these 18 shifts, we looked at, at the time when the Treaty of Sugawli was signed, that it
45:29should have been at the center of the river.
45:31Center of the river between both of us.
45:33That center has changed.
45:35And that's the issue why we seem to have a problem.
45:38And with now the Prime Minister Balinshah saying that, look, it could be technical issues and it could be an
45:44issue between both countries.
45:46Both countries are at fault.
45:47Both countries could have complications.
45:49These are the complications he's talking about.
45:52Now, he's given us the space for expert committees to go through this before.
45:56Again.
45:58But sir, the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra, that's passed through Lipu Lake for such a long time and it's resumed in
46:062026 this year.
46:07After such a long gap, Nepal now says they've objected to this.
46:12This route has been used since 1950s, 1954.
46:15So, why would Nepal, predominantly a Hindu country, have an objection with pilgrimage through this route unless it's becoming a
46:24geopolitical flashpoint?
46:25Now, it's not a flashpoint.
46:30We have been doing it since forever.
46:33It is just that after the situation to Lipu Lake pass came about through, I think, a public release by
46:43us, Nepal started objecting.
46:47But Lipu Lake has long been taken as what we used to term as the trijunction between India, Nepal and
46:54Tibet, which now is a part of China.
46:59So, if that's the trijunction, that means Lipu Lake was always a trijunction.
47:03And that's what we've always said, that our pilgrims have always gone through Lipu Lake.
47:08So, the fact that the Prime Minister has removed nationalism and brought in technicalities means he's given space now for
47:17the two people to work it out through their expert committees.
47:21Okay.
47:22General Shogin Chahan for joining me here on this India Today special broadcast, sir.
47:26Many thanks for another perspective and a diplomatic perspective.
47:30I now want to bring into this conversation Ambassador Rakesh Sudh, India's former ambassador to Nepal.
47:37Ambassador, welcome.
47:39While nationalism may have been removed, but is there an attempt to bring in international forces?
47:45And should a red flag go up?
47:48Because Balen Shah, while he talks about Kalapani Lipu Lake, saying that, you know, these are issues, outstanding issues that
47:56need to be resolved.
47:58Nepal's Prime Minister wants to involve countries like China.
48:02And historically, he says, since it was British India, he also wants to involve the United Kingdom.
48:06How would you look at that, sir?
48:11Well, when we started the pilgrimage through Lipu Lake, I mean, first of all, let's understand one thing.
48:21There is a long history to it, right?
48:26As General Shogin also said, the agreement on the boundary goes back to 1816 Treaty of Subali.
48:35Yes.
48:36That basically says, up the river Kali and to its origin.
48:42Now, there has always been a dispute about which side the origin is.
48:47Because if you go up the river, you come to a place called Garveyang in Dharachula district.
48:54Incidentally, both districts, border-riding districts in India and Nepal are called Dharachula.
49:00Yes.
49:02So, you can get very easily confused.
49:05But anyway, if you go up the course of the river and then you come to a place called Gunji.
49:13And from there, you have various tributaries which are coming in from the eastern side as well as from the
49:20western side.
49:21Now, which is the actual main tributary was never decided in 1816.
49:31However, in 1817, when the Nepali king there tried to take control of two villages called Nabi and Kuti.
49:48On the western side, the British who had negotiated this treaty wrote to him saying that this is not permissible
50:00and Kala Paani, which are the springs from where the river originates, is supposed to be the primary tributary.
50:12That was 1817.
50:15So, therefore, it remained like that and obviously we inherited these boundaries.
50:22But, sir, today when the Nepalese Prime Minister suggests bringing in UK to try and find a solution, that clearly
50:30would be unacceptable to India.
50:33Okay, even the UK ambassador has said I am not interested.
50:37It is for India and Nepal.
50:39So, I don't think UK has any interest in getting in.
50:42So, let's not get worked up about that.
50:45Right.
50:45So, how do you find a solution with Balen Shah?
50:49One, how do you read his statement in terms of is he reaching out to India or is he trying
50:53to create a situation more difficult for India?
50:56Let's understand one thing.
50:59We stopped the pilgrimages.
51:02When we started the pilgrimages through Lippu Lake, at that time also, the Nepalese had protested and said that they
51:13had sent a protest.
51:14Yes, in 2015 or even earlier, actually.
51:19And they had said that they protested to us and to China saying that this is disputed territory, so we
51:27need to work out a modus vivendi.
51:31Nothing much happened.
51:33The thing continued.
51:35The difference is that in 2020, because of domestic political problems, purely domestic political problems, the then Prime Minister KP
51:48Sharma Oli, whose coalition was collapsing and he was going to lose power, decided to use this.
51:58Because in May of 2020, we converted, well, we had been working on it.
52:05We had what was called a kacha track that went from Dharchula to Lippu Lake Pass.
52:13Now, that border roads organization had made into a paka road.
52:18In May of 2020, Mr. KP Sharma Oli, the then Prime Minister, decided that this has been done without consultation
52:29with us, so he made that a nationalism kind of an issue.
52:35Because he wanted to save his chair.
52:39He wanted to save his prime ministership.
52:42And therefore, let me finish, let me finish.
52:46Let me finish, please.
52:47And so therefore, he went and got a constitutional amendment passed, unilaterally changing the map of Nepal.
52:57Now, 2020 also happened to be the time when the Galwan crisis took place.
53:03So, we did not have any pilgrims going that side.
53:07It is only going to be resumed now.
53:11In 2026.
53:12So, because we announced that the resumption, there were people who picked it up and talked about it.
53:20Now, as far as Balinshah is concerned, and we've seen the walking back from the foreign ministry.
53:26Now, the question is that this is not going to be worked out at the level of foreign secretaries, because
53:33by doing what he did, what KP Sharma Oli did, he changed the flag.
53:38Yes.
53:39He passed a constitutional amendment.
53:42Now, they have currency notes with this map of Nepal, which actually includes a part of this territory, which they
53:49consider theirs, but which is not so historically.
53:54Now, given that situation, this requires political understanding.
53:59It requires a give and take.
54:02There are two areas.
54:03It will require a give and take.
54:05Yes.
54:05I have last 30 seconds on this part.
54:07Go on, sir.
54:07Quickly, sir.
54:08Please go on, sir.
54:08There are two areas where there is a relative area of uncertainty.
54:16One is in the south, Susta, which is the Narayani River, which we call Gandak or Gandaki, as it enters.
54:24Now, in that area, because the river shifts course, there are often areas which move this side or that side,
54:32depending on which tributary or which side of the river you are on.
54:36And then there is this area.
54:38Now, this area is obviously crucial.
54:40And let me just finish by telling you, let me just finish by concluding and telling you that, look, the
54:47British intended very clearly that the path to Lipu Lake, which was at that time the predominant trading route to
54:55Tibet in 1816, 1817, would remain under their jurisdiction.
55:01They would not have ever handed it over to Nepal.
55:05I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
55:08Ambassador Sooth for joining me here on India today.
55:11Many thanks.
55:11But before we wrap up the show, I quickly want to take you through the latest developments that are coming
55:15in on the West Asia front.
55:18Now, Washington DC and Tehran, they both insist there's a ceasefire in place.
55:22But the battlefield tells us a very different story.
55:25The United States has bombed Iranian missile and radar sites on the Qesham Island.
55:30They've also bombed two drone launch centers and command and control centers on Qesham Island and on Gorut.
55:40Now, Iran has responded.
55:41Iran fired multiple drones and missiles targeting a U.S. base in Kuwait, saying that this is where the missiles
55:48were fired from.
55:49So this is a retaliatory strike.
55:51Israel, meanwhile, has intensified its offensive on Lebanon.
55:55They've seized a very significant, strategically very significant 900-year-old castle called Beaufort.
56:04Now, is West Asia once again on the verge of another massive escalation despite ceasefire being in place?
56:15Or is the ceasefire there only in name?
56:20That's a story we'll be tracking very, very closely because as far as the security forces in Israel are concerned,
56:27they've got clear orders from Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that they need to completely degrade the Hezbollah,
56:34not just south of Litani, now south of Zehrani River.
56:37That's the story we'll be tracking.
56:39That's all I have for you on India First this evening.
56:41Many thanks for watching.
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