- 2 days ago
A deadly police shooting, conflicting accounts, public protests and growing questions about justice.
Did Kaia Sealey act in self-defence, or did police use excessive force in the killing of Joshua Samaroo?
We examine the evidence, the controversy, and the legal battle now gripping Trinidad and Tobago.
Did Kaia Sealey act in self-defence, or did police use excessive force in the killing of Joshua Samaroo?
We examine the evidence, the controversy, and the legal battle now gripping Trinidad and Tobago.
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NewsTranscript
00:15tonight on beyond the headlines a case that has sparked outrage protests and intense national
00:21debate the intended charging of kaya seeley with manslaughter and the police involved
00:27killing of her common-law husband joshua samaru in saint augustine has divided public opinion
00:34and raised difficult questions about the use of force and the treatment of women in the justice
00:40system was this a justified response in a moment of danger or a case that demands criminal
00:46accountability what does the evidence and the law actually see joining us tonight we have jerry
00:54goodridge he's a certified force science analyst master firearms instructor and subject matter
01:00expert on use of force encounters he's due to join us on teams in a short bid but also who
01:08was due to
01:09join us this evening was alissa phillip she's a close friend of kaya seeley and one of the leading voices
01:16behind the public protests calling for support and justice but as we heard in our story earlier
01:23she was arrested during this afternoon's protest just outside the office of the director of public
01:29prosecutions in her place we have a gentleman johan harry who is also part of that protest joining us
01:36i'm orvashi to worry rubnerine and of course you're joining beyond the headlines so mr harry thank you so
01:43much for joining us thank you so much for agreeing to be with us at such short notice i did
01:50see you in
01:50some of those clips online you were engaging with the police officers asking them because we did hear
01:56you asking um where can we protest you were seeking clarification and seeking to abide by the rules and
02:04regulations given to you your fellow protester leader of the group alissa phillips she was arrested
02:11this afternoon what is your understanding of what happened um the police we were asked not to be
02:20in front of the officer dpp and we were moved to basically in front of the church we thought that
02:26we'd be even safer in front of the church while sits standing on the pavement in front of the church
02:32the police came and blocked the pavement and then told us that the pavement was blocked
02:37we explained to them that they were the ones blocking pavement and if it is they wanted free passage
02:43that they should not block the pavement they went on they tried in several different ways to silence us
02:52they tried in seven different ways to have us not speak and when we decided to use our voices
02:58the center male officer that came and held on to alissa and if if if all is cd size alissa
03:07alissa is very small
03:08a very petite young lady and son and they grabbed onto and they started they yanked the girl down the
03:15road
03:15they yanked the girl down the road by herself dragged her and because there was support for the young lady
03:23like people people weren't trying to charge the police or go towards the police they were following
03:27the young lady they took her and her mother they blocked us from the riot police and after they
03:33blocked us from the riot police we heard that she was being arrested what is this message you think
03:39sending to supporters of the movement we would like people to understand that when you are facing a
03:47situation where it is the people are supposed to protect you are the people that are distributing
03:53oppression upon you you cannot stay silent and that is alissa's stance we cannot stay silent while it
04:00is we are watching our people being advantaged of by the people are supposed to not just protect us
04:07but the people are supposed to ensure that the law is like the police suppose if you have an
04:14infraction against law to bring it to face the courts and that is not what we see we see now
04:19our police
04:19officers are overzealous that they take the lives of our citizens and we are standing against that
04:26because we know if we remain silent no it is not going to stop it's only going to get worse
04:30and we
04:30at our point where it is we have seen it get increasingly worse so far so we're not about to
04:36be
04:36silent even alissa who is under arrest at present she hasn't been charged she and her mother have been
04:43arrested they being held at woodbrook police station they have not been charged the lawyers are working
04:48on the situation to get them out as soon as they could but alissa would like people to know that
04:54regardless of what it is they say we are having 19 protests and we will complete the 19 protests
04:58i was just about to come to that 19 bullets 19 protests how many have you all gone through thus
05:04far
05:04i believe this is number 16 or 17 so 16 or 17 would you still consider this a protest was
05:11it successful
05:11um it was successful because of the police because of the way in which it is the police
05:17interacted with people that were not they were only trying to be heard in your opinion was it a
05:23peaceful protest very peaceful very peaceful when when the the police they didn't want the embarrassment
05:30in front of the officer the dpp so they tried to shove us down the road when we decided to
05:35take the
05:35shoving down the road they shoved us further down the road and when we got our place where it is
05:40we
05:40weren't interrupting anybody they come and took advantage of the situation did organizers anticipate
05:46that arrests were possible because the ttps did ward in advance we were certain that there would
05:54that there was a high chance of being arrested when we got there when i got there we were told
06:00that jesus
06:00was already arrested so we so upon coming we knew that all right arrests would be made but if we
06:07silence our
06:07voices because arrests could be made more than arrests and we've seen that more than arrests are being
06:13made unjustly so i know that alissa would have declared that she knew kaya personally they are friends
06:21yeah and that is um one of the reasons that she mounted on this campaign and these series of protests
06:28what is your reason because you did mention off camera that you don't know her person i don't know um
06:34kaya city personally but i saw with my own two eyes in just like we all know that when a
06:41man puts his hands in the air
06:43that he surrenders so for the police to then see somebody surrender and they say that how it is kaya
06:50was
06:51shooting on them if kaya was shooting at them the bullets would have entered the front of kaya kaya was
06:56shot in her back which means kaya was not facing police so everything that is in is contradictory and
07:01we have already seen what is taking place so we can't trust what they are telling us and we can't
07:07trust
07:07what they are telling us to believe we have no choice we we've been placed in a position where it
07:12is
07:13is either we stand up now or we acknowledge that this is the way they're going to be and we
07:21know for that
07:21just getting back to today's protest now um on the list of locations because you all did plan out 19
07:29different locations 19 different days the office of the dpp was not on the list it was a police station
07:35well after why why after he made the decision to charge kaya seeley we decided that he needed a
07:43visit as well because we we visited what what we have been doing is going to different police stations
07:48we started at the police station in st joseph because it happened in synagostia we didn't know
07:53which police were really and truly involved we heard that the five of us police and them was involved so
07:58we went there and we've been going to different places but after being told by the dpp that he's okay
08:04with charges moving forward we think it we deem it necessary to let him know that we will not be
08:10silenced and he will hear our voice as well but let me ask you police said that that particular location
08:17violated the emergency powers regulations why go there anyway
08:23if they're telling us that we can't speak and they're telling us that when it is we do speak we're
08:29going to be advantage how how far can we listen we know that when it is we listen to these
08:34people
08:35that our rights are being infracted upon they are infringing our rights when it is we listen to them
08:41we can't listen anymore how far would we go with just letting us right now we're still trying to let
08:48our voices be good and not make it turn into anything else we would like if it is they would
08:52just
08:52come forward and decide that you know what let me do is the right thing and deal with this in
08:56the right
08:57way so that the people don't feel outrage and people don't feel like if it is they being oppressive but
09:01they are showing us that their intentions is to oppress us when is that is the statement that you
09:08gathered by the police's action today did you expect i mean yesterday did expect some sort of um
09:14presence by police but it was a lot bigger than we the riot squad we didn't we like in our
09:21minds we
09:22connect like it had more police than protesters imagine goings are protests and it have more police
09:30than protesters that don't make any sense i'm not saying that now was this protest today meant to
09:38challenge the emergency regulations in some way no the the protest today was to shine a light on the
09:44actions of the dpp and the fact that he they waited four months and nothing that they have said makes
09:53any sense after four months we can't we remain basically yes we would been protesting three four
10:00months but we're going out we peacefully protesting we try not to infringe we asking people to come out
10:06normally go and come out and tell us that we didn't see what it is we see and only telling
10:11us what to see
10:12when to see what to see where to see it where to stand how to stand and we knew our
10:18little person
10:18us that don't make sense the prime minister i'm not sure if you heard just yet but she accused protesters
10:24of publicity farming and victim gimmickry how would you respond i think that if it is we looking for
10:35publicity by getting the right things done in our country and standing against oppression in our country
10:41then sign i i looking for real fame if that is what it is if looking for fame is standing
10:46against
10:47oppression if looking for fame is saying that we need our police officers to wear body cams
10:52if looking for fame is coming out and stating that when a young man surrenders you don't go ahead to
10:58kill him then we be looking for fame and if that is the case i don't mind looking for fame
11:01she also
11:03said that protesters were attempting to provoke police for a reaction the police were trying to provoke
11:10protesters for the entire time and and and what is what is eye opening to me is that we have
11:17so much
11:18media there that could see that could hear that could actually take i don't even know what the words
11:27is i want to use they could show what is actually happening and the way that they show it is
11:32so
11:33different to what is actually taking place so we actually feeling at this point that yo this is a
11:38concerted effort on all sides against the people now she also asked why similar outrage and protest
11:45did not occur over the years of violent crime and murders 5 000 murders over nine ten years what's
11:51your response we expect murderers to be murderers we expect criminals to commit crime we do not
11:58expect our officers who have the job of taking us before the courts to be the ones that are murdering
12:05us when it is we surrender so i don't want to hear anything that she have to say about all
12:10the
12:10others and the murders and the this and the that we are in a country where it is our police
12:15officers
12:16are moving above the law and taking advantage of the citizens if our prime minister could see that
12:21she stands with the police where this is concerned it's a sad danger not on tobago when what is the
12:30real
12:30objective of the 19 bullets 19 protests campaign i don't want to speak for alissa especially seeing
12:41that she's not here but for me we want to see that the police officers that were involved in that
12:48murder that we saw we want to see charges brought against them for murder because if any other citizen
12:54was involved in that situation they'd already be behind bars we are present we don't have any names
13:00of the police officers that were involved in the shooting we even hear nakaya be in charge we know
13:04everything about kaya but the people who are actively shooting that we saw on video we have
13:09we don't have their names we don't know who they are this is insanity does it matter that neither the
13:17family neither kaya no one has really said what they were doing in maloney and why they evaded police
13:25from maloney to saint augustine does it matter to you because you said you don't know her what matters
13:31to me is i saw a young man that surrendered the job of the police regardless even if it is
13:39he was
13:39shooting at the police in maloney and then they got to him in san augustin and he surrendered the job
13:45of
13:46the police was to arrest him and take him to face the court and that was not done i'm playing
13:51devil's advocate here
13:52even if he pointed well the account says he pointed a gun or kaya pointed a gun somewhere in the
13:58vicinity
13:59of mcoya so police in their mind know that or think that there is uh the gun that wasn't produced
14:07the gun charge residue that that that has not been given the young lady who they say that was a
14:12shooter
14:12that was allowed to leave the country the matts no matts what are the loopholes in this whole police
14:19account that we have read we we have seen we saw the video we saw the young man's hands outside
14:26the
14:26window the police then come to tell us that the shutter in the back glass was her shooting when it
14:32is we could clearly see that the bullet entered the back glass and came through the windscreen so that was
14:36a shot that came outside from outside of the car that don't make sense the fact that she has been
14:42riddled with bullets in her back when it is they say that she was facing the man shooting that don't
14:47make
14:47sense the what else what else we can see that don't make sense the fact that our commissioner police
14:53thought that it was advisable to give his officers counseling that don't make sense nothing about
14:58the situation the dpp making the decision that he decided to make to charge a young lady that don't
15:03make sense nothing about it makes sense and we the people need clarity for us to feel comfortable
15:08and we don't feel comfortable so we will speak why do you believe kaya's vision of events police have
15:15said she concealed the gun in her bra somewhere in maloney kaya doesn't have enough big enough breasts
15:24to hide a glock gun in her bra like like low if if kaya add some double d's on the
15:32scene then i could
15:32say well all right but based it do nothing this ain't make sense if a firearm was in fact recovered
15:40from
15:40that vehicle how do supporters reconcile that with her denial that there was no weapon if it is we come
15:48to the point that we they if they have a firearm they have fingerprints or her fingerprints on said firearm
15:57they have gunshot residue of on her hands then and still and still even if it is we get to
16:07that point
16:08it don't make sense with the bullets in the back on the young man hands out the window that it
16:12just it
16:13demands no maxim and in your opinion the police is lying the police have we in 2018 there were five
16:21boys
16:21in second caledonia mover right they were driving a gold tira we saw a video where it is the police
16:30stopped the tira a young man came out of the tira went across to the police officers the police officer
16:37spoke to him and placed the man back in the car and then riddled the coward bullets and killed everybody
16:42inside the car we knew them to lie we're not going to unless we we would love to be able
16:49to trust them
16:49we just not place in that position and we have to use our voices until it is we place in
16:54a position
16:54where it is we could trust them but because police may have been incriminated in one incident doesn't
17:01mean necessarily that every police involved shooting makes them guilty no it it doesn't but this one
17:07certainly has signs that shows that it resembles that which happened in 2018 and there are so many others
17:15so many others every single time we hear about a police involved shooting they were fired upon and
17:20they return for every single time and every single time we see them on camera they're doing all the
17:24firing it don't make sense we're going to take a short break we'll be right back
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18:21i'm coming in fast first place you coming in last it is 2026 and trinidad and tobago you know it
18:35i'm coming in first place you love the play if you love the same
18:43tune the nine sports every thursday and saturday on i'm 95.5 fm
18:51rule number one never be number two now you gotta watch
18:54win win win
18:55fear on game on the fear factor is back do not relax
19:02last last i'm coming in fast first place you coming in last
19:11hola my name is elena well it's actually not my real name you don't really care do you
19:20all you care about is once you pay your money to my boss that i look pretty smell nice smile
19:27for you
19:28and let you have good time enjoying yourself and doing to me whatever you want to do for the money
19:34you
19:34paid what you don't see or know is that i don't get any part of the money you paid my
19:42boss takes all of it
19:44i am forced to work taking as many clients as my boss tells me to i am beaten made to
19:52take drugs and i
19:54cannot leave this kind of work on my own i am a victim of human trafficking please
20:02help me
20:25you're watching beyond the headlines we are speaking with jerry goodridge he's a certified
20:31force science analyst master firearms instructor and subject matter expert on use of force encounters
20:37mr goodrich thank you so much for joining us i have quite a number of questions so let's just try
20:43uh to get them through as quick as possible yes so from a force science perspective what are the key
20:50facts that investigators would focus on on determining whether um kaya seeley did in fact have a gun whether
20:58she fired behind police and whether she's really guilty of manslaughter okay well i want to go all the
21:05back down the track what we really rely on would be one the interfacing with the suspect to find out
21:16whether
21:16or not there's a measure of truth in what is going to be said some people may make a declaration
21:23yes i did
21:23i was in possession of i am or i was in possession of a weapon in in in lieu of
21:30that this is where the
21:31science begins and the science will be the forensics aspect of it to do various testing for the evidence
21:38that if i am was present now there's something that i'm i'm going to say very quickly a fire may
21:44have
21:44been present but it may not have been fired and the only way they will know if i am was
21:48present and
21:49fired is if you do the forensic testing for the whole question of um residue the firearm residue from the
21:57the the burnt um that powder and the fulmanite material and so many different chemicals that you
22:03would find in a round of ammunition um if it was in present and there and the real parenthesis is
22:10being
22:11done and that time was cleaned let's say a week ago 10 weeks ago and there's any residue of the
22:17cleaning material that they use some solvent or something if that was on the person of of of anyone
22:25the solvent will still be penetrated into the person's skin and if it was recently in their hand
22:30and there was evidence of solvent i'm not talking about residue from the gun being fired there's
22:35evidence of solvent then you will be able to also know that this is you know uh some some some
22:42solvent
22:42that was left on the person hand and there is always a nexus to having something close to you
22:48which will represent itself in some kind of presence in the human body um because our skin is absorbent
22:57and and it will absorb some kind of residual from another surface whether it is liquid or material
23:05surface you're going to find some kind of thing according to the depth of your forensic studies
23:12so um tell me testing would have likely i mean the dpp was convinced and people have a lot of
23:19faith in
23:19the office of the dpp he was convinced so i'm assuming testing would have likely shown residue inside the
23:26car how long does residue stay and can you determine when that residue was deposited my question really is
23:34could after that incident residue or some firing could have been done inside to corroborate this story
23:43based upon your question um without incriminating anyone yes some some firing could have been done
23:51in inside any any any um container and i wanted to debunk some things that a lot of people have
24:00been
24:00talking about there was a range in shakaramas which was shut down it was being run by the
24:04for something like that for some years and the residue of gunpowder was being deposited in the ceiling
24:11and all the vents and all even on the ground where you didn't expect it because people believe that
24:17residue from a firearm is only thrust forward in the same direction that the bullet went but as long as
24:24it enters into the atmosphere and it is hotter than the prevailing temperature it is going to be um airborne
24:32for
24:32a long time and if you have a vent on or a fan on or air conditioning on in a
24:37car it is going to
24:39be cycled in the vehicle the same way in which the air in the vehicle would have been cycled when
24:46when the
24:46vent was on and i saw that because um the glasses were upside i don't know if it was deep
24:52they were in a sauna
24:52or if they were in a cool car but different guns or different bullets would have different residues so
25:01we could determine whether it was police shooting or whether it was a supposed glock from inside a
25:06vehicle but still my question is would we be able to determine when that residue was deposited if it was
25:13deposited on january 20 of the day of the incident or thereafter okay i want to be very quick because
25:20you're asking an easy technical question every day we have deposits of dust we have different
25:26dust in different environments if something happened let's say in sandy grandee and the soil in sandy
25:32grandee is clay and alluvial whatever it is and you move that vehicle from sandy grandee and you bring
25:37it down to carony and two little bit of dust blow you will be able to get a dust sample
25:43of saying hey
25:44this is currently soil here that blow up inside this vehicle or this dust deposit came from somewhere
25:50where it was full of clay now to tie in that with what you've just asked there is a time
25:57date and
25:57a signature on combustion of gunpowder and gunpowder time date and signature will also come with layers
26:07if i i am a shooter i've been shooting for 51 years and i had a bag on the range
26:13in arizona nowhere close
26:15to where the range was it was like about 50 feet away and we were shooting and when i was
26:20going
26:20to the airport they wiped my bag and found residue from from from firearms on on the swipe a little
26:28stab
26:28and that back i know it was nowhere near on the range mr goodridge time has run out on us
26:38but i need to
26:38ask you what if a gun was shot from inside that vehicle would a flare be seen from a cctv
26:44footage
26:46there's something called muzzle flash and and it would have been a um a characteristic of a gun going
26:54off the muzzle flash would have given some illumination inside of that vehicle
26:59we have barely scratched the surface gentleman johann harry let me thank you so much for coming
27:05and joining us as a short notice in person and mr jerry goodridge your expertise as short as it was
27:11was very valuable but the discussion just you know really started this is very divided it's emotional
27:19this case has become questions about police use of force accountability and justice will soon be before
27:26the courts but they are playing out in the court of public opinion this has been beyond the headlines we
27:32now go to a short break oh no break we're going straight to the people meter results we asked do
27:39you
27:39share the prime minister's views about today's protest outside the dpp's office for those of you
27:46who voted 11 percent said yes while 89 said no and that brings us to the end of the tv6
27:55news i'm
27:55urvashi tiwari rubnarine on behalf of everyone here team six have a good night
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