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00:02OTAs, Organized Team Activities, Organized Team Activities.
00:06Not just team activities, Bulldog, these are organized teams.
00:09This is not just, everybody just come over when you want.
00:12There'd be no point in having team activities if they were disorganized.
00:15We'll put a ball out, there's a goal post.
00:18No, it's got to be organized, no doubt these are.
00:20Joe Brady's first kick-at being a head coach, as we know.
00:25Sal Capaccio out at the stadium or thereabouts today for these activities.
00:30And he joins us now on the Western Hotline.
00:33Nice day for it, Sal.
00:35Oh, yeah.
00:36It's beautiful out there today.
00:37Well, I don't know, mid-70s was it today?
00:39I'm not really sure of the exact temperature, but really nice and warm.
00:42And it was nice to kind of have some warm, dry weather after, you know,
00:47most of last week and last weekend was so wet.
00:49I know that we had Jim Leonard speaking to reporters at a certain point today.
00:54And we'll ask you to talk about what you think might have been interesting from him.
00:58Before that, though, on the field, what might have stood out?
01:04Several missed guys.
01:06Guys not there that you notice that aren't, you know,
01:08some that weren't there last week, a couple more this week.
01:11Deion Dawkins and Spencer Brown in the offensive line.
01:14James Cook, Dorian Williams, Cole Bishop, Christian Benford.
01:18Dawson Knox wasn't there today.
01:20He was last week.
01:20But those are things that stand out to me as far as when I first walk out there and see
01:25things.
01:26And then I'll say that guys working off to the side, especially Michael Hoyt.
01:29I think we talked about him last week.
01:31Some of the things that he's doing.
01:32Certainly catching my attention where he is working right now.
01:36And then I think from an organized team activity standpoint, practice standpoint,
01:41a lot of the two weeks in a row I've seen them do like a competition,
01:45kind of while the media was out there.
01:46And, you know, they have these competitions.
01:48They talked about the tug of war they've had.
01:49This one was more of a large kind of a big circle.
01:55Each one, there were two of them.
01:56And there were several guys in offense, several guys in defense,
01:58mostly linemen, I think, who did it.
02:01And they'd have to, you know, kind of like when you're in grade school
02:04and you have to maybe run to a certain spot and then the next person goes.
02:08This was, you had to run around the circle, then the next person would go.
02:11And then they had a bunch of stuff like that.
02:13Who would win?
02:14The offense against the defense.
02:15And, you know, everybody getting into that kind of, so to speak.
02:18That was kind of cool to see that happening.
02:20And today they did a lot of red zone work.
02:24And David Igmanosin, the rookie, picked off Josh Allen
02:27and took it to the house for a pick six.
02:29So far, career highlight probably for him.
02:32Yeah.
02:32Well, listen, I will say, though, two plays later,
02:36Josh threw a touchdown against David Igmanosin.
02:39And I don't know if it was intentional that he did that.
02:41You know what I mean?
02:42But he did throw a touchdown to Khalil Shakir.
02:44The next two plays, actually, Josh threw touchdowns,
02:47one to Keon Coleman, one to Khalil Shakir,
02:49and the one to Shakir was specifically against IGB.
02:52I'm really hung up and distracted by trying to decipher
02:56whether what you described the Bills doing was duck, duck, goose.
03:01Because that's what it kind of sounded like duck, duck, goose to me.
03:04They weren't touching each other like that on the heads, okay?
03:07They weren't sitting down like that.
03:08Oh, dog, that's funny.
03:09But it reminded me of that, like when you're in school
03:12and your gym teacher says, okay, this team's over here,
03:17this team's over there, and the next person,
03:19when you get around the circle, the next person can go.
03:21And they kind of did it like that.
03:23Duck, duck, goose seems like a game where we wouldn't have had
03:25to change the name.
03:27Like a lot of these things.
03:28Yeah, right, right.
03:28You can't call it what you used to call it.
03:30I think we're pretty much in the clear with ducks and goose.
03:33The ducks and geese, I don't see the lobbyists getting involved in that.
03:36I think we're okay.
03:37I think it's a threat to their health.
03:40I think it's probably fine.
03:42It's a legacy, isn't it?
03:43You don't know if a goose has actually been offended yet
03:46and said anything to anybody, though.
03:48I will tell you.
03:48That's right.
03:49Maybe we should stop talking about it and move on.
03:51It's safer that way.
03:51Quit, quit.
03:52Walk before they make us run, Sal.
03:54That's what I always say.
03:55Sal Capaccio on the Wester Hotline.
03:57Did you, by the way, you led with attendance,
04:00which is kind of typical of these things,
04:02but I just want to ask, is that what you notice first
04:07just because it's maybe most interesting to fans who's there,
04:10who's not there, or is there a longer list of guys
04:13that aren't there at this time this year than normal?
04:19It feels like it's longer than normal, but I'm not positive.
04:22I'd have to go back and check my notes or tweets from years past
04:25to be honest with you on that.
04:27The first reason is the main reason, Bulldog,
04:30which is I know fans want to know, was this guy there?
04:33Was that guy there?
04:33Or who wasn't there, I guess, right?
04:36Right, right.
04:37But this is a slippery game you play with fans
04:40and putting it out there because I have a video.
04:44So I just posted a whole bunch of video at Sal Sports.
04:46You can see it.
04:47It's on X.
04:47And one of them is I have video of the running backs.
04:50And I got, okay, here's the running backs.
04:52They're doing a little drill here.
04:53Here's Ray Davis, Frank Gore Jr., Desmond Reed, Ty Johnson.
04:58And then I wrote, no James Cook today.
05:01And literally like three, four responses right away.
05:03Is he holding out again?
05:04I mean, like, no.
05:06I mean, not that I know.
05:07First of all, you can't hold out.
05:09It's voluntary.
05:09Like there's no holdouts until you have to be somewhere.
05:13Other people have pointed out his Instagram story says he's in Buffalo.
05:17Well, yeah.
05:18I also know Spencer Brown is in Buffalo.
05:20I saw him today with street clothes on at the end of practice walkout.
05:24Cole Bishop was in the field house today.
05:25He didn't practice.
05:27So that's a slippery game.
05:29And I even debate putting it out.
05:30But I think it's information that people want to know.
05:32Like if certain guys were or weren't there.
05:34And most notably, most notable guys, right?
05:36So Dion and Spencer Brown are your two tackles.
05:39And neither have been at the two practices that we've been able to watch.
05:43That's the other point of it, which is we only get one a week.
05:48Like, I believe from what I've heard, Ed Oliver was at one of the other practices.
05:52But we didn't see him.
05:53So last week, we're like, Ed Oliver's not there.
05:55Today, Ed Oliver's not there.
05:56Guess who showed up at the end?
05:57Ed Oliver.
05:58Not in pads, but he was there.
05:59And he was watching.
06:00So maybe he participates tomorrow, for all I know.
06:03One of my favorite things about Twitter is that.
06:06Like, if Sal knew that James Cook were holding out and was willing to report it, don't you think he
06:12would?
06:13Right.
06:13Does somebody need to press you on that?
06:16People must think they need to press you on that.
06:19Oh, yeah.
06:19I forgot to mention.
06:21I forgot to mention there's a holdout.
06:23I was going to mention, man, I forgot.
06:24I should have mentioned that.
06:26Of course you would have mentioned that if that were what you were going to say.
06:29And there's no, Mike, to your point, James Cook last year, that was a story.
06:33Like, we knew there was a contract situation.
06:35Yes.
06:35Like, that was a story at the Combine.
06:37It was a story at the owners' meetings.
06:38It was a story leading into the draft.
06:40Would they trade him?
06:41So when he didn't show up, we all kind of knew what the deal was.
06:44That's not a story this year.
06:46My guess is James Cook is training and doing something somewhere else.
06:48And guess what?
06:50Honestly, like, last year, James Cook didn't do any of the offseason voluntary stuff until he had to be there
06:57at mandatory, and then he led the league in rushing.
06:59It's just like, if you knew that, of course you would say it.
07:03Right.
07:04All right, Sal.
07:05Jim Leonard, what did you get?
07:08He was asked some questions just about specific players.
07:12He also said something interesting, which is when, you know, he starts the job, he has a vision of where
07:18you want it to be.
07:21And he said, like, he said something about, like, in year one, you're not going to completely get there, so
07:26you take what you have and you put it together.
07:28And I don't know, you know, it doesn't, it sounds, when you say that, it's like, well, wait a minute,
07:33like, it's going to take a little while for this defense.
07:35But I don't think he's trying to say that.
07:37I think he's just saying, look, you have guys here that might not be the ultimate fit for what we
07:43want a few years from now.
07:43It doesn't mean they can't play in what we're doing.
07:45It doesn't mean that we're trying to reset here.
07:47But it was an interesting quote, nonetheless, meaning what he, when he becomes a defensive coordinator, you know, and has
07:54a new team he takes over and they're switching defenses, he's not going to have all of the exact pieces
08:00and parts that he might envision wanting to eventually have, you know, as a full breadth of talent, basically.
08:08I thought that was interesting.
08:10Yeah, I mean, that's, that's really, I think, one of the biggest questions facing this team.
08:16I mean, which is a lot to say, considering you've got a team with a brand new head coach and
08:20a first time head coach at that, but you know, that side of the ball is, you know, there's of
08:25course, DJ Moore is here and there'll be a new left guard.
08:27But like mostly, I mean, we kind of know who they are, what they are, you know, based on Joe
08:34Brady's two years as coordinator on the other side of the ball.
08:37Yeah.
08:37It's, it's, Hey, Landon Jackson, go put on 25 or 30 pounds, Dwayne Carter, you too.
08:42And sort of see if we have guys that can fit roles, uh, for this thing.
08:48And if that doesn't work, you know, then I don't know, like, I don't think the season hinges on those
08:52two guys, but it just is indicative of what they feel they need to try to find, to fill out
09:00a Jim Leonard defensive front.
09:04Yeah. And so one thing this morning, I was on with Jeremy and Joe, and we were talking about this
09:09very thing. And I said, you know, we're going to get twisted up and we have to retrain our brains
09:15on how we talk about some of these guys in the positions they play and what their roles are, but
09:19specifically even labeling them.
09:21Um, it's a guy, an end, is he a tackle? Like, what is he outside linebacker, edge rushers? And part
09:25of it is because I wrote state of the bills and even me, I'm writing this article.
09:29It's like state of the bills. And I wrote about edge rusher slash outside linebacker, because I'm like, well, what
09:35do I call them now? Right. Right. Are they edge rushers? Are they the defensive ends? Are they outside linebackers?
09:41And we have to kind of figure out, first of all, where these guys play and then kind of figure
09:45out like, what do we even, how do we term them is the other piece of it.
09:48So I specifically asked Jim Leonard today, how do you term it? Like, what, what do you call Landon Jackson
09:55now? So here's Landon Jackson, for example, to use your example.
09:58And I use the same guy, Bulldog said he's playing what he says, the four eye, what's the four eye,
10:02the four eye technique is inside shoulder of the offensive tackle.
10:07It's a four technique, but the inside of a four. So four eye. So when you have him there, he's,
10:13he's outside the nose tackle, but there's another guy standing up outside of him.
10:17What do we call him? And his answer was he, he, he agreed. He's like, yep. Like it can be
10:22confusing. Right.
10:23He said they are defensive ends actually in the system, but when anybody puts their hand on the ground and
10:28they're going against guys, basically tackle to tackle, you can just call them defensive tackles.
10:33So their interior defensive linemen. And then you have the outside linebackers slash edge rushers who are kind of your
10:40traditional defensive ends, but they don't call them that in this scheme.
10:43So all of this stuff that we talked about gets baked in, like who plays, where, what do they do?
10:48Landon Jackson, not only is going to be a four eye, he's going to also be a five technique, which
10:52is outside shoulder of the tackle.
10:54And when that happens, there might not be a guy outside of him, by the way, there might not be
10:58a tight end there. So he's the last guy on the line.
11:01All of this stuff is going to be very confusing until we understand after watching the defense actually play.
11:07This might come off as unfair, but I somewhat mean it as a compliment to Leonard. I wonder what we'll
11:14have when cuts happen, which I know is not until September, but Leonard as a player was the only Bill's
11:23player to make the team after not being drafted.
11:26He's the only undrafted free agent to make the roster. And I wonder if there are that year, you mean,
11:31right?
11:31Yeah, that year, 2005. I wonder if there might be a name or two, you know, likewise that were not
11:38players who were not drafted, that he would be like, well, for my personal experience, you know, I, I, I
11:43made it, you know, it's how he has this career, you know, probably it's certainly helped that he had a,
11:48whatever, 10 year career in the NFL or whatever it was.
11:51So, you know, that might be something to think about down the road.
11:55Yeah. And I'm looking at some of the undrafted guys. Now, actually there is an undrafted linebacker inside guy named
12:01Theron Gaines. He actually had an interception in red zone today. Like he just, he made a play, right? He
12:05stands out.
12:06You make a play, you stand out, people notice you, you know, and you talk about a little bit and
12:10your outside corners, you have Carrie Walker, Carrie Walker, excuse me, and Jordan Dunbar.
12:14Like, do they have a chance? Because honestly, I still think they're a little thin at outside corner. What do
12:19you have?
12:20You have Christian Benford, Max Harrison, David Davison, Igbenosan, IGB. And then what's after that? There's still, we don't know.
12:27I'm guessing Dorian Strong won't be available, but we don't know that.
12:31Daryl Porter Jr., Toriano Pride. There's definitely opportunity for another outside corner on this roster. And maybe it comes in
12:38the form of an undrafted free agent.
12:40Also, by the way, Bulldog, he retired from Wisconsin as the league leading, rather the conference record holder in punt
12:47return yards for his career.
12:49Leonard, that's not going to probably come into play here as defensive coordinator, but it held, held for a couple
12:55of years, but he was, he retired from Wisconsin as the, the big 10 career leader.
12:59And he probably, he returned a few punts here, I think as a bill, probably elsewhere in his NFL career
13:04too.
13:04Um, so on corner, I think it's so interesting. You, you just, the freezing you just used, you think maybe
13:11they still might be a little short on outside corner.
13:13Have we ever collectively missed harder going into a draft, a position? Cause now we're like, I feel like when
13:22corner was selected, when they, when they, when they chose IGB, like they did a lot, I didn't expect corner
13:29this early.
13:30And then they did it, you know, picked another one later on. And now you got Leonard here talking about
13:36how, you know, the different skillset and, and IGB, IGB has a, you know, it's a little longer, rangier, that
13:42kind of thing.
13:43And how, you know, we're all sort of nodding along going, yeah, you know, their corner depth was a problem.
13:48I guess we should have seen that coming.
13:50And I think before the draft, it wasn't even a position that we talked very much as I recall anyway,
13:56but now it totally makes sense what they did.
13:59I think.
14:00Yeah. I think the eyeopening comment was after the draft at some point during the draft, whenever it was when
14:06Brandon Bean said, when they looked at their roster, they felt their overall number one need was corner.
14:12Now, what people hear sometimes when you say that, and I get it is them thinking, okay, that means top
14:18of the roster. You need a guy. You got to put them in.
14:19It's not what he was saying. What are you saying? What you just said, which is they needed depth. They
14:24had, they didn't have, they had two guys after that.
14:27It's a, are we bringing Trey white back? What do we have right there? There really wasn't nobody. There was
14:31nobody. We don't know about Dorian strong. You can't count on that right now.
14:34Now their number one positional need overall from a roster standpoint for the top to bottom of each position was
14:42corner outside corner going into the draft.
14:44That's what Brandon Bean said. So they made IGB a early draft pick later on.
14:49They draft Toriano pride. And I agree with you that it was not.
14:53Now I remember coming out with you guys a lot and I would say, yeah, they're going to have to
14:56find another outside corner.
14:58They'll probably do that before the end of the draft. I didn't think they would go that early because to
15:02me, by drafting one that early, you, you did what is happening now, which is people wondering, what do they
15:10feel about Max Harrison? Right.
15:12And that was actually asked to Jim Leonard today. Like what, what by drafting IGB, because we hadn't talked to
15:20him since the draft, like, does that mean, what does that mean about Max Harrison?
15:23And he was very quick to point out. He was a fan of Max Harrison coming out of the draft,
15:28loved his speed, was really liked him a lot.
15:30He said, it doesn't mean we're down on anybody. And then he said, we really felt we had to have
15:35more depth at that position.
15:37And then he said, and he brings more of things we don't have in that room as far as his
15:42length and those other kind of traits.
15:44So, yeah, you're right. I think it was a, I think it was a position that we overlooked for how
15:49early they could take one.
15:50And then they ultimately did. Who does, if there's one name there, if you took, if you gave Leonard this
15:58question,
15:58he probably would name more than one person, but who is like his mighty say primary influence as a defensive
16:05coordinator?
16:06Bulldog was talking earlier, we're talking about McDermott's defenses and this philosophical shift that we expect.
16:12And he said, maybe just think more like Rex Ryan. And he played for Rex Ryan with the Jets.
16:18Do you happen to know who he would sort of put at the top of his list in this area?
16:23I would say Rex Ryan. Okay. He, he, not only did Rex, did he play with Rex?
16:31He came back, right? Rex brought him back here when Rex was here, right?
16:35At the end when Rex got hired. What year was that? I guess 13. Is that Rex yet? Yeah.
16:41Or Marone? No, would that be, that would, no, that would be Marone. Yeah.
16:44He went, I think he played with Rex into a couple of different stints.
16:46Yeah. I feel like he played with Baltimore with Rex, like at the very beginning.
16:50And the Jets maybe? Yeah. I just, I know he was with Rex.
16:54If he wasn't with Rex here, that would really surprise me.
16:57He was not here yet when Leonard made his comeback to the Bills.
17:00But still. And then Vance Joseph, I think, you know, I, I mean, they've been together here, right?
17:08But I'm trying to think, I think Bradley Chubb talked about Vance Joseph when they were in Miami
17:12or when he first started there, but he's been under him.
17:15But I think, I think Rex would be the biggest influence that he would have in this regard.
17:19Jim Leonard.
17:20Okay.
17:22Do the Bills have, like, so tomorrow, I know you can't watch, but maybe they'll play like
17:26La Clorox or something, Bulldog, where they have Duck, Duck, Goose.
17:30You ever play La Clorox in gym?
17:31I don't know.
17:32I don't even know.
17:32I don't know what La Clorox is.
17:34I have no idea what that is.
17:34So, my one gym teacher, we didn't have lacrosse sticks, so he took, maybe he just did this
17:42himself, took a bunch of Clorox bottles, like the big bleach bottles, and cut the bottoms
17:47out.
17:48So, you had basically a version of a handle of a lacrosse stick that would catch the ball
17:53and throw it.
17:53Almost like a high-lie, it feels like.
17:56We should have called it La High-lie or something.
17:58Yeah, maybe.
17:58La Clorox.
18:00Keep an eye out for that, Sal, if you get another look at the Bills anytime soon.
18:04We played, we played a game under, in gym class, my former gym teacher who founded the
18:13Trench Trophy, Carl Curris, who the Cleveland Field is named after, and I say that because
18:16he was such a great influence in my life, and I would talk about him all day and all
18:19the incredible things he did, and he was such a funny guy, but he made up a game that we
18:24played called Triangular Animalistic Dodgeball.
18:26Okay.
18:27As you can imagine, by the name, the way that it sounds, it was freaking awesome.
18:31Yes.
18:31Did he write that on the chalkboard when you walk into the gym that morning?
18:35No, you just knew, by the way, that the tape was on the floor, right?
18:39Like, we're playing, trying, and what it was was you basically had a small area, and there
18:44were four triangles, so you're, like, cutting it up like a square, but it's triangles, and
18:50your team, you were one, two, three, and four, and you just basically had to stay in your
18:54triangle, and people were just whipping dodgeballs at you.
18:56It's a fun idea.
18:58I feel like, by the use of the word animalistic, he's just showing off.
19:02Yes.
19:02He's just showing off.
19:03You really don't need animalistic as a title.
19:07That's right.
19:07But good for him.
19:11I'm doubting that you ever met Manny Fernandez.
19:14I know you were in Florida a long time.
19:15Miami Dolphins.
19:16I don't believe I have.
19:18I don't think I ever did.
19:19He might have been at that golf tournament where Garrow was there, Bulldog, but I don't
19:23remember, like, talking to Manny Fernandez.
19:25He died today or yesterday.
19:28Dominant defensive line presence on back-to-back Super Bowl winners for Miami, Super Bowl 7 and
19:358.
19:36Armando Salguero described him as a gentleman in a tweet, Fernandez.
19:41Also, the worst late hit I've ever seen in the history of football.
19:45Really?
19:46Yes.
19:47The worst late hit I've ever seen.
19:49If you asked me that question, this would be my immediate answer, is the sea of hands.
19:56Clarence Davis for the Raiders in that classic AFC playoff game that ends the Dolphins' run
20:01in 74.
20:02And, you know, it's a kind of a duck, you know, Stabler just desperately lobs the ball
20:08in the end zone.
20:09Davis comes down with it and rolls around and he's got it and like an hour goes by.
20:13And then here comes Manny Fernandez, just jumps on him head first, just trying to, anything
20:18to try to get the ball out.
20:20Oh my gosh.
20:21I mean, I never, I don't think I ever met him either.
20:23I know he was a fine player, but that, that's the worst late, do you guys have this?
20:27The worst late hit you've ever seen in football?
20:29I don't have another one that comes to mind.
20:31No flag.
20:32It was, it was enough for the Raiders to get the win.
20:35They didn't, you know, need the flag.
20:36Right.
20:38I don't think I have a worst late hit I've ever seen.
20:42And I'd have to think about that one.
20:44How about Charles Martin on Jim McMahon?
20:48Oh yeah.
20:49He sort of just throws him.
20:51Yeah.
20:51It's not even that, it's not really late.
20:53It's more just like the play's going, you know, it's an interception or whatever.
20:57He's vulnerable.
20:59And it's maybe one of the main reasons they put that, the rules in about those blind side
21:05block type plays.
21:06Okay.
21:06Well, he, he picked them up and slammed them.
21:08Yeah.
21:09Yeah.
21:09And he separated his shoulder.
21:11Right.
21:11And then he had, remember they had the hit list.
21:13He had Charles Martin had the hit list on his towel.
21:15Right.
21:15And McMahon's name was on it.
21:16Right.
21:17Does the name Turkey Jones ring a bell?
21:19Well, it should Bradshaw for the Browns.
21:22Okay.
21:23Did something similar to that on Bradshaw Turkey.
21:25Okay.
21:26So, so you say Turkey, so different era now.
21:29Okay.
21:29Of course, different era, like we'd have to be stated, but when I was growing up playing
21:34football, you had, you, you were taught to go to the whistle and if you didn't go to
21:39the whistle, you could get a Turkey shot.
21:41Don't stand around like a Turkey was why they would call it a Turkey shot.
21:44So if you're standing around and the whistle hadn't blown and someone even a well away from
21:48the play just comes in and cleans your clock, that's your fault because you're a Turkey
21:52and that's a Turkey shot.
21:53It's a whole nother era.
21:55That's right.
21:55Yes.
21:56That's like blaming Tim Connolly for his hit in Ottawa.
21:59Exactly right.
22:00But different era.
22:01That's right.
22:01Be more careful.
22:02Why is it his fault?
22:03What did he do?
22:03He's playing the game.
22:05So many cheap shots.
22:06It's not his fault.
22:07All right.
22:08Nice chats, Al.
22:09Thanks for your time today.
22:10You guys.
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