- 2 days ago
Is music supervision the most misunderstood job in film and television? Jen Malone, music supervisor and founder of Black and White Music, sits down on Billboard On The Record to break down the art of building musical soundtracks. From her work on shows like Atlanta, Euphoria, Love Story and more, Malone explains how music supervisors shape a project from pre-production through post-production, collaborating closely with showrunners to build a series’ musical identity. She also breaks down the difference between composers and music supervisors, the process of clearing songs and how she approaches crafting each character’s sound.
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Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.
Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.
Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Category
🎵
MusicTranscript
00:00I think music supervision is one of the most misunderstood jobs in this industry.
00:04Season one of Euphoria, you had Hold Up by Beyonce in there. It's like 15 or 16 writers
00:09and nine producers. When do you decide that it's worth going through the tricky licensing process
00:15of a song like that? When there's a song that a showrunner wants, I will do anything and everything
00:21humanly possible to get that song. And with Hold Up, it was a monster. We wrote a letter to Beyonce.
00:27Love Story is about real people. Can you walk me through the process of trying to define
00:31John and Carolyn and their story through song? Carolyn, there's nothing on her in general,
00:38but it was so much more than just scoring them. You said that the cost of songs has risen for
00:45film and TV projects. Was there a certain inflection point? After the pandemic, artists that might have
00:50shied away from Sync are now much more open to it. They're still expensive, as they should. Bruce
00:57Springsteen should be very expensive.
01:03Hollywood's been going through it. From the pandemic shuttering movie theaters globally,
01:07to the rise of streaming video on demand, the shortening of theatrical windows,
01:11the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes, and the movement away from filming in LA. It's been hard to recover,
01:18and now to top it off, there's major consolidation on the horizon as Paramount purchases Warner Brothers
01:24Discovery for billions of dollars. But amidst all of this chaos, some fantastic TV shows and films are
01:30still getting made, and when a good soundtrack is needed, many directors turn to Jen Malone to pick
01:35out the tracks. From Beef, Love Story, Euphoria, Creed 2, Atlanta, Wednesday, and Mr. and Mrs. Smith,
01:45Jen has become the go-to for truly cool and tasteful soundtracks that often steal the show.
01:50And today, she's coming on the podcast to talk through the state of music in Hollywood today,
01:55how she picks the right songs for the right moment, and where she thinks this crazy industry
01:59is going next. Jim Malone, welcome to On The Record. Thanks for being here.
02:03Thanks for having me.
02:04Okay, I'm super excited that you're here. We're gathered here today to talk about kind of the
02:08state of Hollywood and how that impacts music within film and TV. I can't think of a better person
02:14to do that with than you. You're the music supervisor behind some of my very favorite TV
02:19shows, Love Story, Beef, Euphoria, all of the... I mean, I'm forgetting a million of them. Wednesday,
02:25there's a ton. So anyways, I do want to back up, though, because you haven't always been a music
02:30supervisor. No.
02:31So can you tell me about how you got into this field, you know, kind of already a few years
02:38into
02:38your career? I was a publicist for rock bands in Boston. Okay. I actually, I went to Northeastern
02:45University, and they were one of the first schools that had a music industry program. So, and they
02:51also have the co-op program. You work for six months, you go to school for six months. And so
02:55when I was in school, and it was like, okay, you have to do your first internship. It was like,
03:01well,
03:01if I have to wake up and talk about bands, I'm going to talk about my favorite bands, which
03:05is, was, and always will be Nine Inch Nails. Ooh. So I just, you know, flipped through the
03:10downward spiral, and it said publicity, you know, Sue Zimmerman for Formula. And I was like,
03:16two, one, two, five, five, five, one, two, one, two, back when that was a thing. It was a very
03:21small
03:21boutique company. I learned so much. And then when I went back to school, I was taking like music
03:28management class. And I was kind of like, okay, I just lived this. I just worked with some of the
03:32biggest managers in the industry. So I just started my own PR company. And that grew to be
03:40my career. And then I guess after like 10 years, I just got super burnt out. So I have massive
03:46respect for publicists. Yes, so do I. Massive respect. So I didn't really know what I wanted
03:52to do. I was kind of in a really bad spot in Boston at the time. I was teaching yoga.
03:58And then I was
04:00washing dishes at a cafe. And then I saw Iron Man. And the music supervisor credit rolled by
04:06right before the ACDC Robert Downey Jr. dropped. And I was like, that's what I want to do. So I
04:13just
04:14moved my car and my clothes. And I just started researching every music supervisor, who what shows
04:20they did, who their agents were, I read everything there was to learn, and then just really started
04:27kind of cold calling people, and just taking meetings with anybody that would meet with me.
04:32Somebody told me that there was a big industry networking event thing that I went. And I was
04:39just like, I want to be a music supervisor. And they're like, well, you got a lot of big wigs
04:42over
04:43here. Dave Jordan's here. And I was like, wait, Dave Jordan does Marvel. He's on my list. I want to
04:48work for him. So I went up and I introduced myself. And he's, you know, nice to meet you. And
04:53I was
04:54like, well, wait, Richard Kraft won't get back to me about getting my resume to you. And he said,
04:59you know who my agent is? I said, of course I do. I want to work for you. And he
05:02said,
05:03that's creepy, but awesome. What's your name?
05:05That is a publicist.
05:07Yes.
05:07That is a publicist right there. That's amazing.
05:10We knew from being in the record industry, we knew a lot of the same people. And he was like,
05:14why would you want to intern? I said, because this is the entertainment industry. You start at the
05:18bottom. Nobody's going to pay me to do something that I don't know how to do.
05:23He was like, okay, start on Monday. So I got an internship with him for the summer. And then
05:30when that was over, I didn't have another job. So I was on an email news group of women in
05:37the
05:37music industry. And somebody posted that MTV was looking for interns in their supervision
05:42department. And I was kind of like, okay, going to Dave's fun, funky office is one thing going to,
05:48you know, Viacom is something else, but you'll learn, you'll meet people.
05:52So when I went in for the interview, they were like, just trust us, do whatever you need to do
05:56to get into the orientation. So part of working for a big corporation or interning is you have to
06:02get school credit. And that was not possible. But I went to LA community college on like the ad
06:11drop day. I filled out an ad slip. I never went, I never paid. I think I like gave them
06:16the wrong
06:16address.
06:16You know what? I actually did this exact same thing. Yeah. Sometimes it's got to be done.
06:21I mean, you got it. Like, it's just, it's, it's just the job. Like you have to figure out ways,
06:27you know, nobody's going to hand you anything in this business and you have to work for it. And I
06:33did. And so I ended up interning for three days and then got a job as a music coordinator at
06:38VH1.
06:39So I was in reality TV for about the first five years of my career and then reconnected with a
06:47friend from Boston. And she was like, oh wait, you do music clearance and supervision. Can you help me
06:52out with one song? And that was for baskets. Then it was, is it song public domain? Okay. Can you
06:58just
06:58be our music supervisor? So that was my first supervisor credit. I mean, before that I was,
07:06you know, coordinating for a bunch of different supervisors, just, you know, just doing it.
07:11Wow. And then she called me back again and was like, I'm doing another show. It's going to be a
07:15lot of hip hop. It's going to be really hard. I don't have a lot of money to pay you.
07:19It's with
07:19Donald Glover. And that was Atlanta. What? And so kind of the rest is history.
07:25Wow. Yeah. That was your first big TV show. Oh my God.
07:29As a supervisor. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Okay. So for those who don't know,
07:35music supervisors are the ones who clear the songs, find the songs for the soundtrack of a
07:39TV show, a film, even maybe even like a video game. Oh yeah. There's ads, videos, and trailers.
07:45I've previously interviewed a few music supervisors, including this guy, Gabe Hilfer,
07:50who does studio White Lotus. And I was talking to him and I thought it was interesting. He said that
07:56he
07:56feels that he works in the film industry, not in the music industry. I'm curious what your take is
08:02on it. As the music supervisor, you're like the one music person on the film crew. So how do you
08:07identify yourself? Do you feel like you're in the music industry or the film TV business?
08:11Film and TV. Okay. For sure. I think that we're, you know, at a label, they'll have, you know,
08:17all of the different promotion, you know, they have the print, they have video games,
08:24they have everything and TV is just, and film is just kind of one aspect of it. So I definitely
08:32feel that I'm in the film and TV business. Interesting. Well, okay. Speaking of the film
08:38and TV business has had a tough few years. It's been a tough few years. So, I mean,
08:44I think it really starts, I'm sure you could trace it back earlier, but it kind of starts with
08:48the pandemic shutting down so much production, shutting down movie theaters as well, and really
08:53leading to the shift where a lot of films had very short theatrical windows, maybe didn't even
08:57make it to the theater at all. After that, you have the strikes. I am curious now in 2026,
09:03what's the energy like in the film TV business? Do you feel like among music supervisors,
09:08you're hearing hints of optimism come back yet? Or is it, are times still pretty tough?
09:13I will always choose to look at the optimism and that things are coming back. I do feel that,
09:20that it's getting a little bit busier and there's kind of more shows and more announcements.
09:26As a music supervisor, it's, you know, it's kind of a, it's a losing battle because in order to make
09:32money, you need to do a lot of projects. In order to do a lot of projects, you need help.
09:36You have to
09:37pay those people. So now you're like right back where you started. So it's really, the business model's
09:42terrible for a music supervisor. So I know it's still hard for a lot of people, but
09:48I just, I think it's going to keep getting better, at least with television. There's,
09:54you know, a lot of different streamers right now and, you know, they just want to put out content.
09:59So I do think that there's definitely, I think we're, we're going in the right direction for sure.
10:05Looking back at it now, what do you think the ripple effects have been of the pandemic specifically
10:10on film and TV production?
10:13Well, I don't have to drive a lot to meetings and spotting sessions. I think we're more efficient,
10:20to be honest, because it's not, you know, again, just from my aspect, it's not scheduling
10:25eight people to be in the room at once from living God knows where ever. So I think it's more
10:31efficient that way. And, you know, just meeting on show, just meetings in general are just a lot
10:38more streamlined. I know that's something so small, but it does save time though, over time.
10:45I mean, if I had to like still drive everywhere, I wouldn't have time to work. I wouldn't have any
10:50time to, you know, do my job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just be in the car. Oh, absolutely. The
10:55interesting thing about music supervision to me is that this is a post-production role. So
11:00it's, is it actually, you correct me. I, what do you think? I think music supervision is one of the
11:06most misunderstood jobs in this industry. Okay. Take it away. Okay. So we meet on a show
11:13before we start shooting because anything that is on camera, um, somebody singing in the shower,
11:23somebody playing along to radio, any dance sequence, a band, a wedding band, you know, any,
11:29all of that has to be sorted out and ready to go before we shoot. So we are working. I
11:37mean,
11:38I think music supervisors are one of the very few departments that are on from pre-production all the
11:44way to the last delivery of the last episode. I don't know many other departments that are on for
11:50that long and sometimes longer because of invoicing and all of that. While we're like creating,
11:55you know, folders of music, we're doing that first because we don't have anything to put
12:00a song to before we start shooting. But if there's, you know, an episode one, they're at a party and
12:08there's a band playing, even, you know, even if it's just a trio, we have to figure out what song,
12:14what arrangement, what do we want the band makeup to be that will connect to, uh, locations. How big is
12:23the stage? So we're dealing with locations and then we're getting arrangements made and clearing
12:28whatever song. And then we're working with casting to find the right people that can play those
12:34instruments or mine those instruments because everything is on a pre-record. So then we're
12:38dealing with casting. Then we have to set up studio time to go in for the pre-recording, have a
12:44vocal
12:45coach. And then we have to, we're working with props. If you're doing a period show and it's a band,
12:52I did a show called Hysteria on Peacock, where it was about in eighties. It was in the eighties and
12:57kids were in a metal band. So we had to make sure that all the gear was period authentic. So
13:02that's
13:02just what we're doing on Monday, but for a shoot that's happening on Friday, but Tuesday, Wednesday,
13:09we're seeing what's happening in the next episode. In the next episode, we're pitching music for
13:13episode one. So it's definitely a full production. And what I like now is I'm finding that I am getting
13:20on shows very early. That's great. Like I I'm really excited about that because there's one show
13:26that I, um, just got for Netflix. We don't start shooting until September, but I'm on and that's
13:34great because I can, you know, not be a part of the writer's room, but I'm like, if you have
13:38any
13:38questions kind of before you script in something crazy that we're not going to be able to afford or
13:43that we're going to have to get rid of anyway. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. No, uh, Beatles yesterday,
13:47please. No, no, no. I mean, no, no, because no. Okay. That's fascinating. Cause I always think
13:54about how music is put in, in post, but that's so true. If you already have a scene where there's
14:00going to be a band that is on screen, you need to already be thinking about what the music is
14:05going
14:05to be. I've also heard before and correct me if I'm wrong about this, that oftentimes music's budget
14:13is one of the first things to get cut by certain directors when they go over budget somewhere else.
14:17Is that something that you've experienced? So luckily, I mean, yes, but luckily I, my shows,
14:26we have great post producers that will always, and showrunners that will protect the music budget to the
14:33point where sometimes they will squirrel, squirrel money away in production to give it to us. Wow.
14:39So I'm in a very lucky position, but most of the time, you know, when budgeting is happening at the
14:45top,
14:47there's not, um, you know, a knowledge base of how songs cost today versus, you know, 10 years ago,
14:56the price of songs has gone up quite a bit. So they're not kind of budgeting properly because they
15:02just don't, they're just not doing it every single day. So our budgets are either the same as they
15:08were 10 years ago or lower, but a lot of my shows, like I said, they, they know how important
15:14music
15:14is and they're so passionate and, and they have, they're looking out for us. So you said that the
15:20cost of songs has risen for film and TV projects. Was there a certain inflection point where you really
15:26saw them get more expensive or was this gradual over the course of the last 10 years?
15:31I think it's gradual, but I think maybe after the pandemic, we kind of were like, whoa, wait, these quotes
15:38are coming in super, super high. I think it was gradual, but yet after, after the pandemic.
15:44Here's my theory here. Um, do you think the catalog market has anything to do with that? With catalogs
15:50changing hands so much more people on the show who've watched it before probably will know that the catalog
15:55market has been hot for the last five, 10 years. Obviously when you buy a new catalog, you're hoping
16:00that you can add value to it so that your investment was worthwhile. And I think a lot of people
16:04turn
16:04to sync and hope that they're going to get some great sync so that they can raise the value of
16:08their
16:08catalog. So I kind of wonder if maybe some of these new catalog players are like just pricing things high.
16:13I don't. I think it's actually the opposite. Artists that might've shied away from sync are now much
16:22more open to it. Interesting. Um, they're still expensive as they should. Bruce Springsteen should
16:27be very expensive and you shouldn't, you know, that that's, it's worth it. You know, we used him in
16:33Wednesday and it was, you know, people are always like, how is Bruce Springsteen? I was like, it was an
16:38easy
16:38clear. I mean, I like to think it's because I'm from Jersey, you know, so maybe I had a little
16:42pull with
16:43that. You can sense it in you. Yeah, totally. A lot of artists that were initially, um, more guarded
16:49and more hesitant and more priced out are, are a lot more open to sync. I think that they've seen
16:56the power of it. And I think, you know, I remember listening to, I think it was a podcast with
17:02Merck
17:02about how, you know, it's about legacy of the artist and maintaining that and, and finding the new fans
17:11and what way for a new audience is a show like Wednesday for Bruce Springsteen, you know? So I,
17:20that's kind of, that's my theory. I don't know if I'm, I could be totally wrong. Yeah, no, I think
17:25that's true. And I mean, one of my favorite like sync moments ever, um, was Mad Men, Tomorrow Never
17:31Knows, Beatles. Yeah. That was the first time the Beatles, I think, I'm pretty sure that's the first
17:37time the Beatles ever allowed a TV show to use, uh, to use their music. Yeah. Um, and I mean,
17:43I do think like the rise of prestige TV and these just like really incredible projects, I do think
17:48also kind of opened the door for more iconic artists to be like, you know what? Mad Men is a
17:54great show and it will be a positive add to the legacy rather than like, I'm, you know, allowing
18:01my music to be used in a Swiffer Sweeper commercial or like maybe a low budget network TV show. It's
18:06like, this is a, this is just as good as a very prestigious film in a theater. Yeah. I would
18:13agree
18:13with that. I think there's just seeing the value in it. And again, just the, the, the longevity and
18:19the legacy of, of these catalogs, because they do, I mean, the massive amounts of money for these
18:26catalogs. And I think, you know, if you're pricing people out too much, then, you know, at least in
18:34the little sync Avenue or the little, you know, the line item for sync, you know, you're not going
18:39to have much to show for it. So you mentioned that your first big show was Atlanta and there was
18:43a
18:43lot of hip hop that you had to clear for that. I think some people listening might not understand why
18:48that would be a tough thing to clear. So can you explain why hip hop and some other genres are
18:53more difficult to clear than others? To clear a song, you have to clear the copyright and it's,
18:58there's two parts to it. There's the master recording, which is usually owned by, to put it
19:03very easy, you know, whoever paid for the recording. So most like most instances, it's the record label.
19:09And then you have the publishing, which is the music and the lyrics. And if you have a song where
19:16you sample another song, those writers from that other song are now part of the writers for this new
19:25work. And hip hop is just, it's really, it's really hard because, um, you know, especially
19:33eighties and nineties hip hop. I mean, it's just, it's painful because even two thousands, because
19:39it was still the wild west samples were not being cleared. You can't find people. I mean,
19:45we're going through ex-wives right now. We're trying to, we're dealing with an ex-wife of,
19:50of somebody for a writer to try to get a song cleared. Cause she owns 33.33333%.
19:57Like this is just, so with hip hop and I wouldn't say it's just hip hop. Um, totally, you know,
20:03sample heavy genres. Yeah. But also like world music, I think can be hard. Um, like a lot of
20:08vintage Latin. Cause we work a lot of, uh, a lot with that for, for Wednesday and for some
20:14of our other shows. So I found that that can be tricky as well. And then you have like territories,
20:22you know, okay, well we own, you know, North America and the BRTs. And the first time I heard
20:29that I was like, what is a BRT? And that's the British reversionary territories.
20:34Whoa. Wait, so the Commonwealth essentially, or I don't know. Maybe this is a rabbit hole
20:41we don't need to go down. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just, I mean. Wow. I've never even heard that
20:44before. Yeah. Yeah. Me neither until the BR, I was like, what is a BRT? Now we know. Man.
20:48But so, so clearance is such, it's one of the most important parts of music supervision. You can't
20:55clear a song. You can't use it no matter how perfect it is. Yeah. But, um, there are split disputes.
21:01You know, I had one song where, you know, had like 18 writers and the first three, I already had
21:06like
21:07150%. And I was like, okay, this is not going to happen. The math does not make sense. Yes. So
21:12it was, it was a, not a crash course, but I really like, that was a really intense show to
21:20kind of
21:21really learn clearance, but, um, but we did a good job. So. I love it. I love it. Well, I
21:27mean,
21:27so how are you doing this research? Cause I imagine you had to do a deep dive on Atlanta hip
21:31hop to make
21:32sure that you really understood the culture that you're entering into. Um, what's that process
21:35typically like for you? Um, Atlanta trap music. And, um, it was great cause vice had just done a,
21:45um, a little mini series of 10 minutes of, of the Atlanta trap scene. So I watched that. I took
21:52copious notes about, you know, uh, patchwork studios and I'm like magic city and, you know,
21:59like just doing it all. And, you know, in the same way that when I moved out here to do
22:04music
22:04supervision, I just researched the shit out of it. It's the same thing with this. And I made a lot
22:09of
22:09connections and really great friends with a lot of Atlanta people who are very deep in the music
22:16industry to this day, you know, that, um, I'm super tight with and we still help each other out
22:23when we can. So it was just, it was a complete deep dive and I loved it. Yeah. I imagine
22:28that
22:28your projects are probably starting to build on each other now where it's like, okay, well now I
22:32know a lot of people in Atlanta hip hop. So the next time that I end up on a project,
22:36I can just hit
22:37those friends up and it'll be so much easier than the first time you do it. Have you had any
22:41instances
22:42where a project has come back around like that and, you know, kind of built on previous relationships
22:46you've already built? I mean, every, every show, every show, you know, there's always, I got a guy
22:52somewhere that I can call or let me text my friend or, you know, so we're always, you know, those
22:59relationships, whether they're with managers or, you know, booking agents or, uh, lawyers, you know,
23:06those are very important relationships because you will start seeing the same names and, you know,
23:11I just, sometimes the person that I've spent, you know, two weeks trying to find, I can just
23:17text a friend and they're like, putting you on a chain. And I'm like, well, that was easy when I
23:21do
23:22that first. So yeah, it's, it's, it's very, um, everything kind of builds on it.
23:28One of my favorite syncs, uh, in a show that you've done was season one of Euphoria. You had hold
23:35up by
23:36Beyonce in there. And I remember watching it in real time being like doing like the math in my head.
23:41I'm
23:41like, Oh my God, there's going to be so many writers on this song. I think it's like 15 or
23:4616
23:47writers and nine producers. I might be slightly off on that, but that's around the number. Um,
23:52when do you decide that it's worth going through the tricky licensing process process of a song like
23:58that? I mean, that's, that's up to the showrunner. When there's a song that a showrunner wants,
24:04I will do anything and everything humanly possible to get that song. And with hold up,
24:10I mean, yeah, it had the Andy Williams sample. It had an interpolation of maps by the yeah,
24:17yeah, yeah. And then it had Beyonce and all of her writers. So it was, it was a monster,
24:22but it was actually, it was a lot of paperwork, but the splits were figured out. So, you know,
24:29we, I think we wrote a letter to Beyonce cause nobody knew what the show was. And so we had
24:34to
24:35kind of, you know, let her know it was, you know, it was in good hands and, and all of
24:41that. So it
24:41wasn't, I'm not, I'm going to say it wasn't a tough clear in that I didn't have to find anyone
24:46and I didn't have to like put people on the same chain. And like, can you guys figure out
24:51your shit and who wrote, what percentages you have? So that was kind of where it was with that.
24:57Yeah. Well, okay. So you mentioned that you wrote a letter to Beyonce. I, I imagine that,
25:02you know, a lot of artists who are very protective over their legacy are really going to want to know
25:07a lot of information about where their song is going to be placed in a given project, especially
25:11when the project hasn't come out yet. Um, and you don't have like a previous season to refer back to.
25:15So, um, how much information are you able to share with an artist that you are trying to license a
25:21song from, um, about the kind of use case of the song? I mean, it really, it depends on the
25:27song
25:27and the artist and the show. A lot of times our showrunner will be the one, um, Benny from
25:34overcompensating wrote a beautiful letter to an artist that'll be in the next season. And, you know,
25:39you kind of get to, you know, see them speak from the heart. Cause that's, that's what I tell her,
25:45just speak from the heart. And for love story, we had Bjork and she is a very, very tough clear.
25:53And I knew that, but I was like, so perfect. If this goes sideways, you have nobody to blame for
25:59it,
25:59but yourself, let it go, let it go to Ryan. And, um, we weren't hearing back and I was like,
26:05it's not a no, it's not a no. And then it got to the point where like, you know, I
26:10didn't really
26:11have any backups. Cause there was nothing that was going to be perfect. And I just knew I was like
26:16manifesting this approval. So, uh, it was at that time where it was like, okay, we need a letter.
26:21And I said to our producers, I was like, let, let me write this letter. Cause Bjork is the soundtrack
26:27to the first time I fell in love when I was living in New York. And the first time I
26:31got my heart broken
26:33and I just wrote her a very vulnerable, very honest, very light. I was like crying when I was
26:40writing it. Um, obviously first giving the, you know, about the show and about this beautiful love
26:47story and where the episode that we were using it in and why it was so perfect. And then I
26:52just wrote,
26:53you know, on a personal note, your music is so important to me. And I just kind of told her
26:58my
26:58whole story and, um, we got the approval like the next day. So I was able to tell Bjork all
27:05about my
27:0619 year old. That is really, really sweet. And I'm sure that it bleeds through in the letter when
27:12you cared that much about it. I think it must. Yeah. Well, I mean, love story is a show that
27:18I
27:18just binge watched about a month ago. So that one is executive produced by Ryan Murphy, who, I mean,
27:24obviously famous for a lot of things, but among them is glee. When I think Ryan Murphy, I do think
27:29of someone who has a lot of savvy around music. Um, I'm wondering what it's like as a music
27:33supervisor to work with someone who's so music focused, like Ryan is love story was such a
27:40fantastic experience. I worked so closely with the editors and the directors of the episode, like more
27:47closely than, than most shows. I would say it was just such an enjoyable experience because I think
27:53everybody just loved the story and love the music of the nineties. And we got very little notes from
28:00Ryan. I mean, he came in with some incredible ideas. I was like, yes, why didn't I think of that?
28:06But it was great because, you know, we do have some songs in there that are not necessarily like the
28:12big iconic nineties hits. And, and, you know, we have stereo lab and low and cocktail twins. And I was
28:19a
28:19little bit nervous that, you know, how Ryan would respond to those songs, but like literally we got
28:26no notes. The only note that we got from Ryan was, and this was such a brilliant note at the
28:31end of
28:32episode eight, when there, um, when John leaves to go stay at the hotel, um, we have tried a bunch
28:39of
28:39different songs and Ryan was like, you know what, let's play it dry. It's going to be more impactful.
28:43Ooh. And I could not agree more. I was like, and that's why you're Ryan Murphy. Um, and that's why
28:49your show sounds so amazing. So, you know, he, he has that. And I definitely was like,
28:55I don't know if I was nervous walking into the show. I was, I was just really excited. Cause I
29:01know the nineties, it's my sweet spot. Like I grew up in the nineties and, um, I just, you know,
29:07knew that I would do the show and, you know, and the music justice.
29:13Yeah. I mean, it was incredible. Uh, air featured on the soundtrack, love air radio heads, my go-to
29:19right behind you as my kid, a vinyl record from my, from my house. I brought all these records here
29:25myself. Um, but yeah, no, the, the soundtrack for love story was incredible and also, okay. So love
29:32story is about real people. It's about John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bessette. I'm wondering how
29:37you approach defining characters through song, especially when you're working with iconic
29:43figures that are real people. So can you walk me through the process of trying to define
29:48John and Carolyn and their story through song?
29:51On a research level, right? Carolyn, there's really not, there's not, there's nothing on her
29:57in, in general. John, we know liked classic rock. So that's kind of what I had, but it was so
30:04much
30:04more than just scoring them and like kind of giving them their own playlist. I didn't do that
30:10for this show because there was so much more about New York and about their relationship
30:18in general and just about kind of what was, you know, happening. It wasn't like a specific,
30:24like, this is a John song. This is a Carolyn song. We didn't look at it that way. Cause I
30:29also think
30:29that sometimes when you do character playlists, it kind of gets you into a box and you never know
30:35where that character is five episodes from now. And so therefore what, what kind of music would
30:42be playing? So I try not to like, like I said, like box myself in with two specific playlists,
30:48but for this show, I kind of just started with my own playlist of my own favorite songs and just
30:54started putting them into the year, like, cause we were very period authentic, you know, so much
30:59of it was like my favorite songs and songs from my youth that, you know, we just, I worked very
31:05closely again with the editors and the directors to kind of find which songs helped support that
31:11moment. I love that show so much. Yeah. It turned out fabulous. If you're releasing music,
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32:09-N
32:10music.com. Well, I'm also curious, you work a lot on TV shows or limited series. And what do you
32:18find to be
32:18the difference between working on films as a music supervisor versus working on a TV show?
32:23Mainly the time. Okay. Films take a very, very long time. Okay.
32:30Like, ridiculously long. I don't do a ton of films. Like, I'm very selective with my films.
32:37And, like, it was great because Caught Stealing, the Darren Aronofsky film, takes place in 1998.
32:42So when we were mixing that movie, I got the call about Love Story. So it was kind of perfect.
32:49I was
32:49like, I'm already in the 90s. I don't want to leave. I don't want to leave the 90s.
32:54But I think it's just the time period because it's just a lot of hurry up and wait,
32:59as opposed to TV just has, you know, it's a much faster schedule. I think that's one of the main
33:06differences. Otherwise, the job is the same. Yeah. But it's just the time.
33:12Yeah. Well, I do wonder, though, with a TV show that has multiple seasons, do you try to evolve?
33:18Well, I guess the time period, you'd probably evolve the music to meet the time period if season
33:22one set in 2000 and then that season two is set in 2005, for example, you would have to move
33:27the
33:27music forward. But do you ever also kind of try to change the music along with the characters
33:32development themselves? Yeah, I would say so. I think, again, it's just it's so specific. We do
33:41Will Trent on ABC, which is 18 episodes. We're going into season five, which is great. And, you know,
33:50we pretty much have a solid sound for that show. But that's not to say that there's curveballs thrown
33:57in. There's experiments that we can do. But it's, you know, I think a show gets its sound and its
34:04tone
34:05and then we don't necessarily want to deviate too much from that because then that's kind of it can
34:10be jarring for the audience. We want the audience to like know, OK, I'm I'm in Will Trent land right
34:16now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, OK, so you mentioned a network show. Is there a difference in the way that
34:21your process works for a network show versus a streaming show? I imagine maybe the lead times are
34:25different. Yeah. It's different. Yep. The lead time for TV on the streamers is much, much longer.
34:33Like we'll be done with the show and we won't see it air for sometimes a year later, which is
34:38kind of
34:39like and then, you know, if we have to talk about it, I'm like, I definitely don't remember. Yeah.
34:44I've done three shows since then. Blocked it out. Yeah. Yeah. Euphoria has headed into its third season.
34:50There's been a lot of change. Labyrinth is no longer doing the score. And that was something he
34:55spoke publicly about and was very upset about. I haven't seen your name in the credits for season
34:59three. Are you part of Euphoria season three? I'm not. When they were gearing up for season three,
35:07HBO let me know that they were going in a different direction this season. And so we parted ways. But
35:13you know, I'm so proud of the work that I did. And I'm very grateful to that show because it
35:19did change
35:19my life. And I'm grateful to, you know, all of the talented people I got to work with,
35:24because obviously you cannot watch that show and not have your jaw on the ground with how
35:30beautiful it is. And, you know, Gabe is the music supervisor for season three. And so I knew they
35:36were in good hands and I'm just, I wish them nothing but the best. Yeah. Well, okay. So for those
35:41first
35:42two seasons of Euphoria, I feel like the music was like almost like a character in and of itself.
35:46It was such a defining part of those first two seasons. And you worked on both of those seasons.
35:51I mentioned Hold Up. I'm wondering if you have any moments from those first two seasons that
35:56you especially loved. There's so many moments. Oh, God. There's so much music in the, in that show
36:03from season to season. I mean, I, I did watch All For Us, that sequence, the final song in,
36:12um, in season, I got, I have to do a rewatch. I have to do a rewatch because there's so
36:17much to it.
36:18Yeah. Um, but I remember All For Us was, was so like, one, I can't believe we pulled this off,
36:27um, in the best way, you know? Um, but in season two, I mean, again, like season two,
36:32the first episode, like 37 songs, I just am kind of, yeah, that's, so there, that's why I'm like,
36:40God, I don't even remember. Yeah. Like, what did I even do? And it was a while ago. Yeah. It
36:43was,
36:43it was a while ago. There were so many moments. Fair enough. It was such a moment, you know? Yeah.
36:48And I'm just grateful to have been a part of those two seasons. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
36:52I was reporting on it at the time. I think that's how we initially came into contact. I wrote a
36:57story
36:57about the incredible streaming bumps the week after an episode of Before I Would Air for the songs in
37:03that episode. That must feel so gratifying as a music supervisor that like you've put on
37:09a new generation to some of these songs that you probably have some personal attachment to some
37:14of them. Yeah. Um, and you know, you've done it across many of your shows. Honestly, it's not just
37:19Euphoria. Uh, Wednesday, for example, example, the Goo Goo Muck song like went extremely viral after that.
37:27Um, did you, did you anticipate that? Did you see that coming? That wasn't the goal. I thought it was
37:35real, like when I saw the cut and I saw her dance and I saw the costume and the dress
37:41and I was just
37:42kind of like, people are going to love this. Getting where it went, I had no idea. Um, but it
37:50was also
37:51like, yay, everybody's going to listen to the cramps now because I love them. And I think prior to
37:57Goo Goo Muck, the only really huge viral, viral, viral moment was Stranger Things. I don't know
38:03anything that like running up that hill. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think anything before that
38:08really made an impact as much as like on a, on a viral meaning like my friend's kids are doing
38:15the dance and dressing up as Wednesday, you know, and like something that, um, like universal,
38:24I guess, both running up that hill and then Goo Goo Muck. Yeah. I don't know what we,
38:28what there was before that to compare it to. You have some songs that have had moments. I
38:34remember, well, I think you could probably say that Lizzo was kind of broken by a sink a few years
38:38before that. Um, there was a Netflix show that one of her songs was featured in. And after that,
38:44it was kind of like off to the races for her. I think she was waiting for that like moment
38:48for a
38:48long time and it would have probably would have happened anyway at some point, but, um, oh my gosh,
38:53what's that song of hers? You're going to have to clear that podcast. It was two seconds. Um,
39:05but yes, anyways, $500. Yeah. Oh my God. You're going to, you're going to bankrupt the podcast or
39:12I'm going to bankrupt it. Um, yeah, no, but I do think it's really interesting how
39:17sink has had a few moments recently where it really has broken some songs. I mean,
39:23like back to euphoria, I think Megan Thee Stallion in season one definitely did that.
39:28Yeah. Um, and that was an episode one. I remember we had a Cardi B song in there and I
39:34think splits
39:35were a mess. I don't think it was clearable. And I was kind of like, Sam, try this, you know,
39:40let's, let's try this one. And it worked. And then I think, you know, maybe six, nine months later,
39:46she's on the cover of Rolling Stone. Wow. So, and you know, we got it for very little money at
39:52that
39:52point. You can always tell that too. It's like, wow, I got now that she's,
39:56yeah, the price is up now. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. That's so great. Okay. You have
40:02worked alongside some incredible composers. We've talked about euphoria with labyrinth.
40:07Now you're also working on beef and Phineas did some of the music for beef. Yeah. First things
40:12first, I actually don't know what the relationship is between like the composer on a project and the
40:17music supervisor. So can you explain that first? And then we'll get into beef.
40:20Yeah. I mean, it's very different for every show. And I know I keep saying that, but, but,
40:26but it is for some shows, I do work closely with the composer, just, you know, letting them know what
40:32songs we're thinking about, or, you know, making sure that they have like full context for the scene
40:37if they haven't read the script. Just kind of, you know, just being there to help them as much as
40:44they,
40:44as I can. But sometimes it's one of those things where like, I have my hands full with needle
40:49drops and they have their hands full with score. Cause there's, you know, a lot of,
40:54a lot more score than songs or vice versa. And so we're kind of just like, okay, good luck. I'll
40:59see you. I'll see you. Yes. It's like, and go. Yeah. So with beef, it's, it's really special
41:07because, um, when I heard that it was, they were doing a season two, I called my agent. I was
41:12like,
41:12you have to get me on this show. You have to get me, get me a meeting. All I need
41:15is meeting.
41:16And then, you know, and then it's up to me. He's like, okay, so I can get you a meeting
41:20with Sonny,
41:21um, Thursday, here's a zoom link. And I was like, no, this has to be in person. He's like,
41:25well, he's already in Calabasas. I was like, I don't care. Like this has to be in person.
41:30And so I went and I met with Sonny. We were hanging out for like three hours in like outside
41:36of a cafe
41:37and, um, immediately started sharing music. Yeah. It sounds like he's a very music forward
41:44director, right? Sonny. Um, so Sonny used to write a music blog. No way. He needs to come on the
41:51pod.
41:52He absolutely does. He's, he's so great. He was, um, doing a, um, a blog, a music blog and started
42:02kind of highlight his, I'm going to tell his story. And he was writing about music in like the OC,
42:08like, like when Alex Patsavis kind of like started putting music supervision on the map.
42:14And so he was the one that was like, oh, these are the songs in this episode. And so he's
42:20been,
42:21you know, into music and film and TV since day one. So he's, you know, so it's great to just
42:28kind of
42:29follow his lead on, you know, on, on all of the placements, but yeah, you know, trading the music
42:35has just been so fun. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like he knows this stuff, which also kind of means
42:40you
42:40have to bring your A game even more. It's like, he really knows. Oh yeah. He really knows music.
42:45Yes. He like, he starts talking about something in like this key or that key. Like I'll hear him
42:51and Phineas and I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to wait it out. I know the lyrics. I can
42:56sing,
42:56I can sing you the part in a different key, but yeah, he's very, music is very, very important to
43:02him. And then how does it work when there needs to be original songs, not score is, does that fall
43:09under your domain as well to commission those? It does. We don't do a ton. Okay. We work alongside
43:16the studio a lot for original songs because there's a lot of like BA stuff that needs to be dealt
43:22with,
43:22but it's just finding, you know, finding the right voice and, you know, finding the right
43:27song. And, um, like for Wednesday season two, you know, we had Lady Gaga and that was
43:34so easy and like much easier than you would expect it to be. And that, you know, we kind of
43:41said what the scene was and, you know, worked with very closely with Interscope and her manager that
43:48were just lovely and gave them kind of the brief for all intents and purposes. And we got dead dance
43:54and it was kind of like, okay, great. Amazing. We're done here. Like it was, it was literally
43:59that easy. Wow. It really was. I know. You've also worked with A24 on quite a few projects and
44:06they're so music forward for a film company. I find their music strategy to be really fascinating.
44:11They now have a record label of their own. And I'm wondering like, why do you think they've
44:16leaned into music so much and why have they been so successful in doing so?
44:20I think because they support the filmmakers so much and really kind of get out of their way,
44:30especially when they are working with somebody like Sunny or like Benny from overcompensating that
44:36has just such a strong musical vision and a musical voice. I think A24 is just very creative,
44:44friendly, and they just have so many shows and films with iconic soundtracks. So it kind of makes
44:50sense to put out, you know, to have their own label. Yeah. I mean, I think that they're brilliant.
44:55I mean, the amount of merchandising and stuff that they've done around all their projects is also
44:59really interesting to me. They're more of like a lifestyle brand around film and TV, which is great.
45:06But I kind of, I don't know if any company could really replicate that.
45:09No. I don't think so. I thought about it. I was like, you know, there have been a few film
45:13companies that have started record labels or, you know, really tried to lean into music as part of
45:18their strategy. But it feels like A24 is just in that sweet spot of being creator friendly,
45:23having cool taste, and that kind of making it all work. So Paramount is buying Warner Brothers Discovery.
45:31I'm wondering how you think that's going to impact the film TV business.
45:36I think a lot of amazing, talented people are going to lose their jobs. And I think that that's
45:46very, it's very sad. Like, I mean, it is, it's, it's, it sucks, because some of these people that
45:53have paved the way for music and film and television, and, you know, they, people are going to lose their
46:02jobs. Yeah. And both teams have an amazing music department. So I think that's going to be really
46:08hard. I mean, from what I'm reading, I don't think that they're going to go down in, you know, like,
46:17content. Okay. Content production. Yeah. I don't think so. I haven't heard that. But
46:22it's early days. It is. And we'll, we'll see. But in order, you know, you can't just have,
46:28like, you, I feel like the HBO specifically, that brand is so important for so long to so many people
46:37that, you know, you have to keep having, they have to keep having those shows like Sopranos or The Wire
46:45or Euphoria or White Lotus, like they just keep on having to do that. And I'm hoping Paramount won't get
46:52in the way of that. I don't know. I mean, it's a lot of consolidation everywhere. And a lot of
46:59people
46:59are losing their jobs. And that's, you know, it's unfortunate.
47:05Yeah, yeah. I mean, so do you feel like music supervision as a profession is shrinking a little bit?
47:11It feels like just in general, in film and TV, everything's getting a little bit tighter.
47:16I do. I mean, there's not as many projects or networks that there used to be to have content.
47:25So I do think that, you know, it is, it is shrinking, and there's not as much
47:31kind of up for grabs. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You own your own music supervision firm,
47:37and you have employees that work with you. So can you tell me about the structure
47:41of what it looks like to be a music supervisor with the full team behind you?
47:44Yeah. So we're an all-female music supervision company.
47:48Love it.
47:48And I have the best women in the business. Nicole Weisberg, who is a co-supervisor,
47:56she does Wednesday with me, overcompensating. And then we have Sarah, who is,
48:05is, she coordinates some projects, but she got a bump last year, too. She's supervising,
48:12co-supervising with me on several projects. Will Trent, Reasonable Doubt, season four. And then
48:20we have Anita, who I love. She's my former roommate. Yes. Full disclosure.
48:24Sure. I'm a little biased. Love her. No, Anita's fantastic. She's phenomenal. And then Haley,
48:31Hannah, does our clearance. And we're all, like, super, super, super tight in the best way.
48:40You know, I'm across every show. I watch every cut of every episode. I'm on every spotting session,
48:45for the most part. Sometimes I just can't be. But they're just, they're my right hand. And I want the
48:53whole, everybody to be involved in everything. I want, I want them to see everything. I know some
48:57supervisors might be a little bit hesitant to have a coordinator on with a call with the showrunner.
49:04And I just think that they just, the more they see, the more they're going to learn and the better
49:10that they're going to be at their job. Because they're going to be able to anticipate things.
49:15And just, they're just going to, it just makes sense to have them. They're part of the team.
49:20Yeah. So, and it was just one of those things where it just grew. Like, after Euphoria season one,
49:25I got a call about the show, The Wilds. And I really wanted to do it. But I, I just
49:30couldn't,
49:31knew I couldn't do it on my own. So I had met Nicole and I was like,
49:34you want to come back into supervising and co-supervise this with me? And then that just,
49:39it just, it just grew very naturally and organically.
49:43Yeah. So are you, how do you pick your projects? I imagine there are more,
49:47there's more inbound than you can possibly take on.
49:51Um, I, not necessarily. I mean, I still hustle.
49:55Yeah. Like I'm reading.
49:57Like the beef one.
49:58Like I, I, I know there was another, this Netflix show that I just got that I don't know if
50:02I could
50:03say, but I saw it and I was like, I have to have this. I have to do it. You
50:06know, I work a lot with
50:07the same studios and producers and production companies, but I'm reading the dailies every
50:15day. All of us, I call them my girls. So I don't have daughters. They're my girls. So my girls
50:21and
50:21I, you know, we're always on the trades and the dailies and seeing what's in production and what,
50:28what we're interested in. And then, you know, I had my agent Bradley who I've been with since day one
50:33at WME and I'll just hit him up or we're like, Oh, I know that person. I'll reach out. I
50:38mean,
50:39it's just, we're just such a, a very close group, but you know, the project has to speak to me.
50:45And
50:45then, you know, we have to just, when I have to just get on the phone with the show runner
50:49and,
50:50and just do a vibe check. I mean, they know that I can do my job and I know they
50:54can do their job.
50:55So our meetings are just really, you know, like I said, like vibe checks.
50:59Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, I feel like those are all the questions that I had. So can I
51:04play a few games with you? Yes. Okay, cool. So at the end of every episode of On the Record,
51:08we do two games. The first one is called Spin the Record. And this is a newer one for us.
51:14But I have my DIY wheel, which I made myself with a bunch of questions on them. They're all fun.
51:20Go ahead and spin the wheel. Let's see how far it goes. Okay.
51:23Wait. There we go. Fine. Fine. What is your advice for an artist who is dying to have their music
51:31synced in a film or TV show? I hear this kind of a lot. Be patient, have all of your
51:38business sorted,
51:40like make it an easy, clear for me. And just kind of know the business, understand what a quote request
51:47is. When I ask who your publishing company is, don't tell me BMI, because that's not a publishing
51:51company. So just kind of know your business, be patient, and don't take things personally.
51:57Okay. Spin the wheel one more time. Okay. I'm going to spin it like this.
52:01Oh, there we go. You know what? We're going to fix the wheel after the show. What's a common
52:06misconception about your job that we haven't gone over yet? Just that we sit around and listen to music
52:10all day. And I would say this, that it's our choice. It's the showrunner's choice. It's their
52:17show. It's their vision. I just try to help them realize it and give them the best songs for the
52:23spot. But ultimately, it's their call. So, yeah. I see. Okay. Well, we'll move on to our next game.
52:31It's called What Would You Cue? We do this every time. And people take it very seriously. That's why I
52:36always tell people this is the one thing I'll tell you in advance ahead of this production,
52:40because people take their music taste very seriously. And I love that. So, first,
52:46what would you cue is, what would you cue to take you back to your childhood?
52:50So, I was a theater kid growing up. Love.
52:53So, I would say, like, any 80s musical. So, anything Andrew Lloyd Webber. So, like,
53:00Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my favorites. You know, obviously, Les Mis, Phantom, Stephen
53:08Schwartz. So, Pippin. Yeah. And then, of course, Stephen Sondheim, Into the Woods, Sweeney Todd. So,
53:14you kind of put any of those on, and I will immediately be transported back to Spring Lake
53:20Community Theater. That's incredible. What would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?
53:27So, that was really hard. At first, I was like, the love story soundtrack. And my husband was like,
53:32come on, that's too easy. Because, of course, I did this with him. Yes. Yes. I would have to say
53:37probably a song from Portisette's first record. Ooh. Because that brings me right back to the 90s,
53:47to college. It just transports me. I love that. Okay. And then, finally,
53:54what would you cue to represent the best concert you've ever been to?
53:58So, I have major issues with this question. Ooh. Okay. Because, given the podcast, we go to so
54:07many shows. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. So many shows. But the two I picked out would be
54:15Depeche Mode. Because when I saw them at the bowl, that was an incredible show. And I think I remember
54:23that they were touring during COVID, maybe. And it got canceled. I just remember, I think that show
54:31was a little bit before COVID. Yeah. And I was just like, I'm not going to be able to go
54:35see shows
54:36like that one again. Yeah. But that was one of my favorite shows. So, something off of Violator,
54:42probably. Perfect. Okay. But I have one more. Okay. Go for it. Underworld. Underworld played at the
54:50Bowl also with Jungle opening up. And it was fantastic. And then they just played the
54:56Palladium. And I just go and I dance. And it's so fun. And it's like, I don't care who's watching
55:01kind of thing. And Jungle is an opener. Yes. That's a flex. That's great. I mean, this was a long
55:07time ago. But it was incredible. I love it. Well, Jen Malone, thank you so much for coming to On
55:13The
55:13Record. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Kristen. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much to
55:17Jen Malone for joining me to talk about the state of music in Hollywood and her work on some of
55:21the
55:21most iconic TV soundtracks of today. And thank you for listening to this week's episode of On The
55:26Record. If you like today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our brand new TikTok page at
55:31Billboard On The Record, where you can find new clips of this show every single week. We'd also
55:37appreciate it if you rated us on your favorite podcast platform, because all these things help On
55:41Record grow bigger and better than ever. Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week
55:47for another peek behind the curtain of the music business. I'll see you then.
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