How Did Nashville Become Music’s Hottest Hub w/ Seth England | Billboard On The Record - video Dailymotion

Billboard

Country music has taken over the charts, and Nashville is no longer just a country town. Seth England, CEO of Big Loud, sits down on Billboard On The Record for a conversation about how his label has helped shape the modern country landscape and how artists like Morgan Wallen, Florida Georgia Line and HARDY have driven the genre’s rise. England breaks down how Nashville has become a hub for songwriters across genres, what actually drives hit-making today and why artist development remains one of the most important pillars at Big Loud. Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.  Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.  Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.

Transcript

00:00:00I don't think this country bubble has burst.

00:00:02Has country radio evolved?

00:00:05Has it become kind of like pop where it's the end destination or is it still breaking songs?

00:00:08Previously the gatekeepers chose what was popular in our genre.

00:00:12Now the fans tell the gatekeepers what to playlist.

00:00:15You don't A&R artists by telling them their stuff's not good.

00:00:17How do you expect Nashville to be changed after inevitably pop moves on to some other genre?

00:00:23Country music is no stranger to the artist recording an outside song they didn't write.

00:00:27There are stories of people feeling like the manager got left high and dry.

00:00:30And he's like, hey, Seth, this is Kenny Chesney.

00:00:32I was like, no, it's not.

00:00:33And he's like, no, it's really, it's Kenny.

00:00:34I don't know what I'm supposed to say to get you to believe me.

00:00:40At this point, country music is pop music.

00:00:43It doesn't take a music industry insider to tell you that.

00:00:45You can just see it everywhere.

00:00:47Post Malone, Beyonce, Chapel Rhone, all of them have released country songs in the last few years.

00:00:52But behind the scenes, in the music business, this is happening even more than you might think.

00:00:57Coastal labels are competing with Nashville ones to sign country talent.

00:01:01Pop writers are flying over to Music City trying to break into writing sessions.

00:01:05And all of that is changing the business over there.

00:01:07So today I'm joined by Seth England, CEO at Big Loud, the music company behind Morgan Wallen, Florida Georgia Line,

00:01:14Hardy and more.

00:01:16Together we'll go inside the country boom and talk more about how Big Loud is standing out from the pack

00:01:21in a time when competition for country talent is bigger than ever.

00:01:24So, without further ado, please welcome to the show, Seth England.

00:01:29Seth England, welcome to On The Record.

00:01:31Thanks for being here.

00:01:31Thank you for having me.

00:01:32Okay, so we are here.

00:01:34You probably can't tell from the studio.

00:01:35You can tell that this is not our normal studio, but we are actually in Nashville about 10 minutes away

00:01:40from Music Row.

00:01:41That's right.

00:01:42Something like that.

00:01:42I have to say I'm really jealous of you guys for having Music Row because it's like college again.

00:01:47I say that all the time.

00:01:49To give a fair assessment of Nashville, I say in the best days it's like a college campus where you

00:01:54can kind of get to the other side of campus and back to your office, if you will, your dorm,

00:01:58see who you need to see and get business done.

00:02:02That is different than the Los Angeles experience, New York and London, or any city for that matter.

00:02:07So, I definitely say the Nashville experience is one of the most unique.

00:02:10Yeah.

00:02:10For sure.

00:02:10It just feels like one of those things where you're constantly like running into people that you know, which can

00:02:14be a good thing or a bad thing.

00:02:15The con of that would be on days where you're not wanting to run into people.

00:02:19It's like you're at a theme park, you know, and you can't escape.

00:02:21So, just to be fair, I'd say way more college campus days than theme park, but certainly a couple of

00:02:25days you wish you'd get off the ride.

00:02:26Yeah.

00:02:27Yeah, for sure.

00:02:28The reason why we're here, we are gathered here today to talk about how the Nashville music business is changing,

00:02:33how country has become the hottest genre in the world right now, it seems like.

00:02:38Constantly topping the charts.

00:02:39Some of your artists are the ones who are topping the charts.

00:02:42And I also want to talk about Big Loud.

00:02:44So, first things first, I want to kind of get into the basics of what makes the Nashville music business

00:02:51different from what you're seeing at the coastal labels, the LA, New York labels.

00:02:55So, what are kind of some top line differences?

00:02:58Well, I would say, zooming even beyond country music for one second, the difference in Nashville today is it's not

00:03:06just a country music town.

00:03:07Historically speaking, you would come here to find the country songwriters and the country artists.

00:03:12And while that's still predominantly true, this would be the headquarters of country music of sorts, you now have one

00:03:18of the most diverse music towns.

00:03:19You know, I've invited friends from any city I go to.

00:03:24It does not matter what genre they're in, we'll find a place for them here.

00:03:27There's a lot of rock bands who hub out of here.

00:03:29There's a lot of pop artists who have made their whole projects here.

00:03:32And so, also being in the publishing world, which I think in the Big Loud sense could be, you know,

00:03:37more revered in a way than even our record label output.

00:03:40We get calls all the time from folks that have come through town.

00:03:42So, I would say first and foremost, that's the thing to know.

00:03:44And so, therefore, we get a lot of folks moving here from all the major, the other major hubs.

00:03:52You know, Nashville and Miami seem to be getting a lot of influx right now.

00:03:55But Nashville, just as we were talking a minute ago, has this really unique twist where you can come here

00:04:00and feel like you're operating at a high level.

00:04:02You can try to write or record for any of the projects that you see and hear.

00:04:06But one thing about Nashville is it has more of a balancing act, I find, or have at least experienced

00:04:11in other cities.

00:04:12Oftentimes, in the writing and studio sessions, they happen at night.

00:04:17They start in the evening where that does happen in Nashville, you know, especially when Post Malone's in town.

00:04:22He's a night owl.

00:04:23But for the most part, I'd say 90% or more of the sessions are usually booked to start around

00:04:2711 a.m.

00:04:29No end time scheduled, but they have a rough, you know, guesstimate, 4 or 5 p.m.

00:04:33The songwriters will probably start heading home and go start their family life.

00:04:37And I think that's a cool balancing act.

00:04:38You'll see a lot of folks also move here just for a better family life.

00:04:41Yeah, I love that.

00:04:42I mean, I feel like I'm starting to see people that I know in L.A. that are making their

00:04:45way over to Nashville.

00:04:46I'm sure you guys see it all the time.

00:04:48Yeah.

00:04:48Pop songwriters showing up saying, you know what, I want to write in country now.

00:04:52I want to.

00:04:53Or they're even bringing their pop music over here.

00:04:55Is there any territorial feel in Nashville?

00:04:59I don't think so much in the songwriter producer space necessarily because I think there's been lots of instances you

00:05:07can point to

00:05:08where really magical and special songs happened from a collaboration of someone who might predominantly have their their career and

00:05:14resume built in other genres.

00:05:16And then they come here and they they have a style of songwriting or something they bring to the room

00:05:20that you're not going to normally find here.

00:05:21So I personally think in that regard, it's a beautiful thing to have people come from the outside in a

00:05:27few weeks for bringing a friend of mine from Nigeria.

00:05:29So and but she lives in London and she's a pop jazz pop writer by her nature melodies for days.

00:05:36And I think she's excited to come here because she wants to meet some lyricists that really utilize wordplay often

00:05:43puns.

00:05:44I don't mean that cheesy puns, but things that really make you think, you know, Hardy, you know, he's the

00:05:49kind of guy that if he writes a song was to tell me this song title.

00:05:52So he and I might look at each other and I'll say, how many times did you how many times

00:05:54did you use it?

00:05:55Not that that's always going to be the objective of a song, but at least for a guy like him,

00:05:59he's good at that.

00:06:00You know, he might be like six ways.

00:06:02And I'm like six ways. How did you you know, how did you that song a rock or whatever would

00:06:06be an example where he can take a simple idea and switch it.

00:06:09Yeah, a bunch of different times to keep you engaged all the time.

00:06:11So I think that's what Nashville historically speaking has a real reputation for being some of the strongest lyricists with

00:06:19a high barometer.

00:06:19And I think, though, that style of writing could apply to other genres. I've always felt this way.

00:06:24One of the hallmarks of country and one of the reasons why I love country is I do feel like

00:06:28there is a cleverness to it that you don't see in a lot of other genres.

00:06:31But I do feel like I am seeing in pop music. I think Sabrina Carpenter does clever lyrics very well

00:06:36and the people that write with her.

00:06:38But yeah, I think that's one of the great hallmarks of a Nashville songwriter is just absolutely clever lyrics.

00:06:43Well, and therefore, to your point, you'll find a lot of Nashville songwriters who are humorous, who are funny, just

00:06:49funny people, you know, to be on a fly on the wall in a comfortable room of friends and Nashville

00:06:54songwriters if they're not writing the song.

00:06:55Usually somebody's laughing so hard because of a joke someone told, you know, you point or think about a guy

00:07:01like Ernest in this regard.

00:07:03He's he's a freestyle songwriter, although he can do it all sorts of ways. But what makes him unique in

00:07:08his superpower is the minute he hears that pun, the idea or a joke, he starts singing in melody immediately.

00:07:14His impersonations are second to none. You know, he's the kind of guy who I've seen him do it.

00:07:19He'll mute the cartoon King of the Hill and he can he can mimic Hank Hill and he'll make it

00:07:25and start rapping like Hank. It's just brilliant.

00:07:27It's really, really funny way he goes about life so much so that he'll make friends with comedians and he'll

00:07:34now have comedians call him and say, hey, I'm working on a bit for this. I'm working on this. I

00:07:38need one. Yeah, I need one little joke.

00:07:41I've got the whole thing figured out. But man, you got any crazy ideas about this guest? Maybe someone he

00:07:45knows.

00:07:46And without skipping a beat, he'll rattle off a joke that just puts you in stitches. You know, wow.

00:07:50I mean, I do think that some of the best songwriters are chameleons.

00:07:53They can listen to you, learn from you, see what you like and then kind of mimic what your style

00:07:59is.

00:07:59So it sounds like that's kind of his superpower.

00:08:02It is. There's no genre. I would guess there's no genre he can't write.

00:08:06And I would say that's also true for someone like a Hardy.

00:08:08Like I'm talking about people in my world. He's more of like if Ern's a freestyle, Hardy's a surgeon.

00:08:12Interesting.

00:08:13Where it's not that he can't write off the top. He certainly can, but he would prefer to know where

00:08:18he's going.

00:08:18Yeah.

00:08:19You know, what are my bookends? What is my what am I trying to what is my concept?

00:08:23And then watch out. Stand back and watch that guy to the point of brilliant songwriting catalog that he has.

00:08:29Songs like A Rock and others where, you know, again, not every song is going to do that.

00:08:32But man, there's nobody better when a song can do that.

00:08:35You know, he'll twist it and turn it and just blow your mind the whole way.

00:08:38I love that. Well, so we've been talking a lot about songwriting.

00:08:41Publishing is the side of the business that's all about songwriting.

00:08:44And that's how you got started, right?

00:08:45That's how I got started. Yeah.

00:08:46Well, OK. At one point, correct me if I'm wrong.

00:08:50You had a role in which you would describe as being a song plugger.

00:08:53Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:53OK. So I feel like a lot of people probably in the modern music business in L.A. and New

00:08:58York probably don't really hear that term used very much anymore.

00:09:01So can you describe what a song plugger is? And is that still something that is happening in Nashville to

00:09:06this day?

00:09:06Absolutely is.

00:09:08It's changing over time, but it absolutely is.

00:09:10One reason for that is country music is no stranger to the artist recording an outside song they didn't write.

00:09:17That George Strait, I think it's changed over the years of his career.

00:09:21But for the longest time, and if I'm not mistaken, when he had like the George Strait 50 number ones,

00:09:25I don't think he wrote any of those songs.

00:09:28Really?

00:09:28If you stop and think about that for a second.

00:09:30And also, though, when you're clicking through it, you wouldn't click through and go, why did he record this?

00:09:35Right?

00:09:35It sounded all like George Strait.

00:09:37Yeah. And I don't want to try to say picking a song for yourself is quite as credible as writing

00:09:41one, but also it's just not that easy.

00:09:44It's easy to pick one that that you like, but perhaps doesn't fit the message you're selling, the branding, who

00:09:51you are and not even know it.

00:09:54Sometimes you don't know why the crowd doesn't connect.

00:09:55So I actually believe so much in the skill of finding the outside song just a close second to writing

00:10:00and almost on par when you're talking about marketing your career.

00:10:03And so so, yes, as a song plugger and publishing in Nashville, you kind of manage the the writers as

00:10:08well.

00:10:09But then because of that climate, you're taking what feels like sales meetings throughout the week.

00:10:16Some people want to listen together in person.

00:10:18Some people don't.

00:10:19So you drop them at their office and hope they listen to it and hope you hear back from them.

00:10:24But as you can imagine, the ultimate goal is to get the songs in the hands of the artist or

00:10:28the producer.

00:10:28So when I was coming up, though, you know, I had to I certainly had to prove myself to Craig

00:10:34Wiseman.

00:10:34He gave me like a three month trial because he's in between pluggers.

00:10:38And I knew I had three months to try to show him that I could get the songs where they

00:10:42needed to be and be a real asset to him, even beyond his own Rolodex.

00:10:46And so there was some crazy stories within that. But ultimately, I did and got to got to keep the

00:10:51job.

00:10:52And so I actually ran into Kenny Chesney the other day and I had to thank him because truth be

00:10:56told, I lucked out one day that somebody sent an email where everyone was supposed to be blind copied.

00:11:01But they weren't. They were copied. You know what I'm talking about?

00:11:04Yes. Oh, of course. Yeah. I got no pride. I just started lifting emails.

00:11:08I was like, and I was in my three month window. I was like, God just gave me this. Holy

00:11:11smokes.

00:11:13And at that time, Craig was the only one that sent songs to Kenny.

00:11:16Wow.

00:11:17But I don't know what got into me on a Friday afternoon.

00:11:18I was like, if I'm going to show him I can do this, I just got to fire one to

00:11:21him, you know.

00:11:22And there's a song called Ain't Back Yet.

00:11:24And I did. And I went out with my friends that night, didn't think anything of it.

00:11:28He won't read this email. I did put my cell number on there, you know.

00:11:32And the next morning at my apartment, I was probably sleeping off the night before, my phone starts ringing and

00:11:36said unknown caller.

00:11:38I didn't think anything, you know, hello, telemarketer, whatever.

00:11:41Yeah.

00:11:43And I could tell it was like really muffled. He was on his airplane.

00:11:45He was flying and come to find out later.

00:11:47He was on a private jet.

00:11:47Yes, but he was actually using like one of those phones on the plane.

00:11:51Oh, yes.

00:11:52It wasn't like, he didn't have Starlink then, you know.

00:11:55And he's like, hey, Seth, this is Kenny Chesney.

00:11:57And I was like, I was like just waking up.

00:11:59I was like, no, it's not.

00:12:00Yeah.

00:12:01Who is this?

00:12:01And he's like, no, it's really, it's Kenny.

00:12:03I don't know what I'm supposed to say to get you to believe me.

00:12:05I was like, I guess it is.

00:12:06He said, you just emailed me the song Ain't Back Yet, right?

00:12:09I was like, I did.

00:12:10Holy shit.

00:12:10He goes, well, man, I'm going to cut the shit out of it.

00:12:13Would you tell Wiseman for me?

00:12:15I was like, of course I can.

00:12:17But may I ask you a quick favor?

00:12:18Who might ask you one?

00:12:19But would you tell him?

00:12:20And would you tell him where you got the song from?

00:12:23And he was like, sure.

00:12:24Let me call him right now.

00:12:26Five or 10 minutes goes by.

00:12:28Then I get a call from Craig.

00:12:29And Craig, Craig, quite the jokester, practical joker, but he had me.

00:12:33I picked it up and he's like, so I just got a call from Kenny Chesney, said you emailed

00:12:37him a song.

00:12:38And I was like, I did.

00:12:40I was hesitant.

00:12:41I did.

00:12:42And he said, you need to come see me in my office on Monday and hangs up.

00:12:46And this was Saturday on a hangover.

00:12:48And I'm like, oh, no.

00:12:49Oh, no, no.

00:12:50I've done it now, you know?

00:12:53And I went in the office and I sit down in front of him and I was getting ready to

00:12:56apologize.

00:12:56I'm sorry if I broke protocol, you know, this and that.

00:12:59That's who you send songs to.

00:13:00And at first he doubles down on the joke and he's like, hey, I don't know if you know this,

00:13:04but Nathan Chapman can do the best Kenny Chesney impersonation and he just got you.

00:13:08And my heart sunk.

00:13:10Like, you know, I made a really bold effort to show him.

00:13:13And then he let me sit in it for a second.

00:13:15He's like, I'm just kidding.

00:13:16I love you.

00:13:16You got the job.

00:13:17I was like, oh, my God.

00:13:19Dude, why did you have to?

00:13:20I was like praying at church.

00:13:21I put my name on the prayer list.

00:13:22Why did you do that to me?

00:13:23Worst weekend of your life.

00:13:24Worst and best.

00:13:25Worst of your life.

00:13:26Oh, I couldn't even work the rest of the day.

00:13:27I was like, Craig, come on, dude.

00:13:29So anyway, there was a-

00:13:30So you saw Kenny Chesney the other day?

00:13:31Oh, well, then he was writing with Craig the other day.

00:13:33Uh-huh.

00:13:33And Craig had asked me to come say hi to him and David Lee Murphy, a group that's written

00:13:37together for well over a decade, 20 years maybe.

00:13:40Yeah.

00:13:40And I just had to tell him.

00:13:41I was like, hey, you've heard this story, but I just want to let you-

00:13:42And Craig was sitting there sort of interjecting his, you know, Craig was beaming with pride

00:13:47that he got me.

00:13:49And so Kenny's like, well, I'm glad I could be a part of your story, you know.

00:13:51Send me another song.

00:13:52I'm like, all right.

00:13:53There's some kids downstairs.

00:13:54Get back to work.

00:13:54Yeah, exactly.

00:13:56Exactly.

00:13:56Man.

00:13:57Well, okay.

00:13:57Well, are artists in country music today still taking as many pitch songs as they used

00:14:01to?

00:14:03I don't have it down as a factual output.

00:14:06Mm-hmm.

00:14:07But if I was to guess, I would say no.

00:14:09Not quite.

00:14:10And I don't know what-

00:14:11But that's not to say there's not a lot of opportunities still to go get one.

00:14:15You know, meaning even Hardy and Earn will say, hey, let me hear everything.

00:14:19But there's two of the most prolific songwriters that are likely going to outright what they

00:14:24normally hear, especially if it's for themselves.

00:14:26Those two know who they are.

00:14:27Uh-huh.

00:14:27You know, but they've still each done them from time over time.

00:14:31This album that's getting ready to come out on Ernest has a couple outside songs from

00:14:34Tony Lane and different- He loves to appreciate iconic songwriters.

00:14:39Yeah.

00:14:39And go dig through their catalog and find little gems.

00:14:41That's a different sort of exploration for him.

00:14:44But I would say, if I was to guess, no.

00:14:47Not quite.

00:14:47Because the environment's also changed.

00:14:50You know, we're in the short form TikTok reels, YouTube shorts era where more than ever,

00:14:56in every genre, but also country music, you're having kids, you know, record a song from

00:15:01their bedroom, put it online, and whatever reaction happens, happens.

00:15:07Yeah.

00:15:07Most of those, 99.9% of those would not be outside songs.

00:15:11They would probably be something they'd written, and they're taking all sides of it in their

00:15:14own hands.

00:15:15So I would say, just because of the climate and the environment of like, I wrote this,

00:15:19so I'm going to show this, and I can do this within five minutes of writing it, like

00:15:22that kind of, you know, if I was to give one of many reasons why, that would probably

00:15:27start to be as you see that shift in some.

00:15:30But yes, there's still very- Morgan.

00:15:32Yeah.

00:15:32We're making his next album right now.

00:15:36I don't know exactly what the ratio would be, but I would say, you know, he writes six

00:15:41out of 10 songs, if you will.

00:15:43Yeah.

00:15:43Of every 10.

00:15:44So something like that, six or seven of them.

00:15:46But he still leaves room, go find me something I wouldn't write.

00:15:49Go find something different.

00:15:50Go find something that would round out this album or give us a new room.

00:15:53Yeah.

00:15:53So I'm not just doing the same things that I'm, you know, that he's into in any particular

00:15:57season.

00:15:57So.

00:15:58Yeah.

00:15:58I think that's a special skill.

00:15:59I do think it's a special skill.

00:16:01And so in a previous interview with Billboard for a story that was about you, Morgan told

00:16:06Billboard that you have one of the best years in the game.

00:16:09So that's pretty, pretty good cosign there.

00:16:11But he said that you convinced him to record Thinking About You.

00:16:16Thinking About Me.

00:16:16Yes.

00:16:17Thinking About Me.

00:16:17Sorry.

00:16:17That's all right.

00:16:18And that ended up going number one on the Billboard Country Airplay chart for, I think,

00:16:22five weeks, something like that.

00:16:24How do you gain the trust of an artist to kind of be able to bring them songs and to

00:16:29be able to convince them that like, hey, the album is still missing that last thing?

00:16:33Yeah.

00:16:33Because I think what I see in pop music these days is a lot of artists don't really have

00:16:38much trust in their A&Rs to bring them things anymore.

00:16:41They really want to have full creative control.

00:16:43So how do you build that relationship?

00:16:44Hmm.

00:16:45Well, by the way, in a lot of cases, rightfully so.

00:16:48Hmm.

00:16:48To have the wrong influences in the room can make you only second guess your confidence

00:16:53when you should be confident.

00:16:54Hmm.

00:16:55You know?

00:16:56I would say with staying on Morgan for a second and not to just go to his head, but

00:17:01like the subject or the artist has to want that collaboration and that teamwork, if

00:17:07you will.

00:17:08Ultimately, he's going to make the final call.

00:17:09Hmm.

00:17:09But man, he's so good even to this day.

00:17:11Like the moments you hear about other artists, oh, they don't listen in the studio anymore.

00:17:14They don't.

00:17:15They're not willing to collaborate.

00:17:16Mm hmm.

00:17:16He hasn't had any of those moments.

00:17:18Not one.

00:17:19That's impressive.

00:17:19What are you talking about?

00:17:20I just played 60,000 tickets in Tuscaloosa.

00:17:23I don't.

00:17:23I think I know what my song.

00:17:24It's like, no, he's never once said that.

00:17:26Not, not even close.

00:17:28More so.

00:17:28He'll ask like, we haven't lost it.

00:17:30Have we?

00:17:30You know, talking about being sharp and being great instead of good.

00:17:34And I know that sounds cheesy, but there is a difference and he knows there's a difference.

00:17:38And so I think when one of the reasons he worked with us in the first place was probably

00:17:42because that was our mentality.

00:17:45Mm hmm.

00:17:45And he knew he had a, he had a wealth has a wealth of music knowledge, much like me and

00:17:52my dad.

00:17:53He and his dad had a real music relationship, sharing bands throughout his childhood.

00:17:57So he was really exposed to a lot of music and therefore had a high thought and barometer,

00:18:01you know?

00:18:02So in the studio, I don't think there's ever a fight.

00:18:04Sometimes we'll debate on songs.

00:18:06I like this one.

00:18:06Mm hmm.

00:18:07When it gets down to the final track list, might as well have some arm wrestling matches

00:18:10to see who gets the final songs.

00:18:12But that's only by way of passion.

00:18:13Mm hmm.

00:18:14And in his case, if you're going to make something that big, every slot has to be worthwhile.

00:18:20That would easily make a bunch of good slop.

00:18:24Mm hmm.

00:18:24That'd be easy to click through.

00:18:25So that's, there's a double challenge there with him as like, you know, people are going

00:18:28to ridicule you for going big, but let's be great at every slot if we can do it.

00:18:32Mm hmm.

00:18:32So.

00:18:32I mean, and he releases really long albums.

00:18:35Yes.

00:18:35What, like what goes into that creative choice?

00:18:38Why, why does he release such long albums?

00:18:39Is it because it's like, I mean, with streaming being an infinite shelf, does he just want

00:18:44to put out a bunch of songs at once or?

00:18:46That's not where it started, nor is any reason he's continued to do it.

00:18:49Okay.

00:18:50The, the, the truest answer is after the If I Know Me album, you know, and that first

00:18:55album did really great for him.

00:18:56He was starting to hear a lot of songs.

00:18:58It just felt like, wow, listen to all these outside ones we're getting and how good they're,

00:19:01how great they are.

00:19:02They're better than a lot of stuff we had in the first album and our collective team's

00:19:05opinion.

00:19:06Stuff he was writing was extremely inspired.

00:19:08He was really starting to get into his relationship, continuing it with Earn, continuing

00:19:12with Hardy, met a couple of new kids.

00:19:15He met John and JB and Blake right at the end of the Dangerous album.

00:19:19That would sort of transpire in a more inspired music the next two projects, if I'm the problem

00:19:24and one thing at a time.

00:19:25What happened was he had had about 18 demos that we knew we were going to record, but

00:19:30we were so far from being done.

00:19:32And he had all these sessions on the books.

00:19:34And I'm talking 18 that we liked.

00:19:36There was another 30 or 40 that were decent, but we did not think hit the barometer of what

00:19:41we were going for.

00:19:42And by the way, that's some, that's the way we do it with Morgan.

00:19:44I'm not scared to share this advice because anybody can apply it in their life, but like

00:19:48you don't A&R artists by telling them their stuff's not good.

00:19:51You A&R, A&R them in my view.

00:19:53The best way to do it is to compare it against their best self.

00:19:57Interesting.

00:19:57And that's different psychologically.

00:19:59That's different.

00:19:59Again, I'm clarifying.

00:20:00I do not know that this is objectively the best way to do it.

00:20:03But for, for me and the artists I've worked with, it's seemingly worked the best to where

00:20:06you don't kill their confidence.

00:20:08If I just told you that, hey, I don't like your song and I left it at that, you might

00:20:11walk out of here and start to resent me, question my opinion.

00:20:16Do I know what I'm talking about?

00:20:18You can go, you can go find someone else that likes it.

00:20:20So now you have a counter opinion.

00:20:22But if I compare it to something and optimally compare it to your best self.

00:20:26So, so therefore it happened on this new Morgan album.

00:20:29We start getting a ton of songs in, start trying to make a short list, heading into the

00:20:33first tracking.

00:20:33Song one, two and three, we're just so clear on.

00:20:36It's great.

00:20:37We love the message.

00:20:38It's fresh for him.

00:20:39Something's unique about whatever it is.

00:20:41And then as other songs come in, and I don't mean in the style, I just mean in the execution.

00:20:47And we talk about this in the studio, like what tells do each of your bodies get, you

00:20:52know, in terms of when you listen to music or you watch a movie, you watch a scene that's

00:20:57romantic or sad or funny.

00:20:59Even comedy can give you chills if it's that funny, if the joke is that good.

00:21:04That's what happens to me for music.

00:21:05Morgan gets it.

00:21:06Joey gets it.

00:21:07Mike Giangreco, who's in there, gets it.

00:21:09Come to find out there's people who don't get that feeling.

00:21:12Believe it.

00:21:13At all?

00:21:13That's what I've heard.

00:21:14I don't know.

00:21:14Hard for me to imagine, but yeah.

00:21:16It's the best.

00:21:16My word of the year is frisson.

00:21:18It's a French word which means like your body's emotional response to something emotive

00:21:23or creative, commonly with music.

00:21:25Yeah.

00:21:25Meaning it just gives description to what happens to someone's body when a piece of

00:21:30music touches you.

00:21:31And so I think you have to remain in touch with that.

00:21:34Like you can play me a song you love, but perhaps it doesn't happen to me.

00:21:38Either I'm not the audience or it may be not as good as you think it is in terms of

00:21:44how

00:21:44many people it can touch and infect.

00:21:46And so we talk about that a lot in the studio.

00:21:48Morgan might be like, why do you love it?

00:21:50Why do you love it?

00:21:50I was like, I don't know, dude, but I got that shit.

00:21:52I don't know, but I have it.

00:21:54If you don't love it, don't put it on there for me.

00:21:56But I'm just letting you know I got it.

00:21:57And it reminds, it's just as good as that song up there.

00:22:00So do we get it exactly right like a science?

00:22:02No, probably not.

00:22:04There's probably stuff that slips on that music's subjective at the end of the day,

00:22:07including his albums, but that's how we attack it.

00:22:09Yeah.

00:22:09And we feel like in the end we look back and go, whoa, we just made something really worth

00:22:14clicking the whole way through, you know?

00:22:16Yeah.

00:22:16Well, okay.

00:22:17So you mentioned TikTok as a way for artists to put themselves out there.

00:22:21That's also maybe a reason why artists are performing their own songs from the beginning

00:22:25more than they ever have.

00:22:27But I feel like that also really changes the relationship between the artists and the label.

00:22:32That means that the artists are signing label deals later.

00:22:34There's less kind of artist development deals as we used to have in the past.

00:22:38But I feel like Nashville has always been known for signing early and getting in early

00:22:44really trying to develop with artists.

00:22:45So are you still seeing like artist development deals in the traditional sense in Nashville?

00:22:50Yes.

00:22:51Yes.

00:22:51And I actually think they're going to come back more than ever, believe it or not.

00:22:54I...

00:22:54Interesting.

00:22:55Let's talk over the last five to seven years.

00:22:57I don't know the exact timeline here where I'm referring to part of these things, right?

00:23:01But yes, Big Loud was definitely from day one was artist development.

00:23:05It's still what we believe in.

00:23:06It's still, you know, truth be told, our very favorite thing to do.

00:23:09But as you mentioned, the environment's changed.

00:23:12You also have to scan what's going on online.

00:23:15There's some incredible artists who have been revealed from their homes and, you know,

00:23:19Dylan Gossett from his bedroom in Austin, Texas.

00:23:21We didn't need to change anything about him.

00:23:23We loved what we were seeing and loved...

00:23:26And by the way, it wasn't like, you know, empty calories, as Joey Moy would say.

00:23:30When you see something on TikTok, he would say this to our A&R team, assess it the same way,

00:23:35if not even more than a kid walked off the street with nothing going on, no social followers,

00:23:40no team, no plan, and only decent songs, assess it the same way.

00:23:47Because you could easily, as an A&R or a company, get caught in that sugar high

00:23:50where it might just be that one moment.

00:23:51It might be that one clip.

00:23:53Let's go on a deeper dive and see, do they write other songs?

00:23:55Do they have a bag full of them?

00:23:57Is this kind of normally what they do all the time?

00:23:59Or do they just catch a little fire in the moment?

00:24:02Because you can still artists develop from where you find anybody, is what I'm saying, right?

00:24:07I didn't want to change Dylan, and no one did.

00:24:10But there's little things over the years since we've been with him

00:24:13that might be considered a development encouragement.

00:24:16How to make your life show better, how do you, you know...

00:24:18Yeah.

00:24:18It's just training, really.

00:24:20Training. Training reps.

00:24:21Exactly.

00:24:22That's exactly right.

00:24:22So that being said, I don't think this country bubble has burst,

00:24:26but I will say the other day I was looking on, you know,

00:24:29we have a report like every record label does where our A&R team, you know,

00:24:32sifts through all the independent country artists out there releasing music,

00:24:35and they do sort of sort it in the weekly consumption.

00:24:38Mm-hmm.

00:24:38And things can change week to week.

00:24:40But like a year ago this time,

00:24:42there might have been four or five kids on the top of that list

00:24:44that were actionable business.

00:24:46Everybody should be competing over them.

00:24:48And this year we have had an artist or two pop on there,

00:24:52but we do not have four or five, six to ten things that are actual.

00:24:55Matter of fact, the week I was thinking about this, I was looking,

00:24:58I was like, whoa, there's not even a kid on here whose weekly consumption

00:25:01could pay for staff lunch this week.

00:25:03Wow.

00:25:04So therefore, if that's true, your only option is to develop.

00:25:08Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:09And so, yeah, so the last three to five years, I'm not going to lie,

00:25:12there's been moments because we were so development heavy

00:25:14where I'm watching labels pick up a person or two quickly from online traction

00:25:19and you sort of get vulnerable for a second.

00:25:21You're like, are we still doing the right thing?

00:25:23Should we be swimming in this pool a little bit more?

00:25:26But back to the other day, I was like, you know what?

00:25:29I think we're doing the right thing.

00:25:30And I feel confident more than ever that the slow and steady approach

00:25:33is the only way.

00:25:34Yeah.

00:25:34And then leave a little space and room roster in your mind

00:25:38for things that pop up you didn't plan for.

00:25:40Yeah.

00:25:40And still, as Joey said, assess it like you would anything else.

00:25:44Yeah.

00:25:44Well, you mentioned that you think that artist development deals

00:25:46are kind of going to come back.

00:25:48Yeah.

00:25:48Why do you think that?

00:25:50Because it feels like things haven't changed in terms of labels chasing virality

00:25:53and, you know, trying to build careers off the back of stuff like that

00:25:58or allowing artists to take the risk of developing themselves

00:26:01before they come into the building.

00:26:02Why do you think that artist development could come back?

00:26:07Well, starting where I ended there because I think it's the only option.

00:26:09Mm-hmm.

00:26:10And for a lot of people's cases, you have to be willing, as the artist,

00:26:13you have to be willing.

00:26:14Do you want to put four to five years?

00:26:16Are you willing to go that far?

00:26:17Mm-hmm.

00:26:18Not knowing when the traction and the inflection points hit

00:26:20that make you feel like it was all worth it.

00:26:22You don't know when it's going to happen, but are you willing to lock in for that long?

00:26:25That's number one from the artist's perspective.

00:26:27The other thing is there's actually a lot more people today,

00:26:32professionals, developing artists outside of record labels as a business.

00:26:36I feel like a lot of managers do the job now.

00:26:39A lot of managers.

00:26:39That's how Big Loud started.

00:26:40Yeah.

00:26:41Yeah, give us a little bit of background on Big Loud

00:26:43because we haven't fully gotten into that.

00:26:45Yep.

00:26:45Shortly after I was, you know, three or four years after I'd been song plugging,

00:26:51I think Big Loud had continued to become known around town as a source of song.

00:26:55We can bring you hits.

00:26:57I was being invited up on people's buses rather than trying to work my way in.

00:27:00Mm-hmm.

00:27:01Hey, here's some new demos from Rodney Clausen or Tompkins or Dragstrom or Craig Buxton.

00:27:05But we also knew, or there was feelings, I should say, by being the song guys at times

00:27:10that we wanted a little more, not control, but like, you know, as Craig would say,

00:27:14sometimes having a song is like your baby.

00:27:16Mm-hmm.

00:27:16And you're going to go put it over the fence to your neighbor, so to speak,

00:27:19and whatever happens over there, we have zero say in it and zero vision casted into it

00:27:24and, you know, just like every other publisher in town who's probably watching what Big Loud's doing.

00:27:28Mm-hmm.

00:27:28Good or bad.

00:27:29You go to Red Door, go wherever you sit with your friends, and you sort of assess what other people

00:27:34are doing.

00:27:35So we were no different.

00:27:36Then Joey Moy walks into our life.

00:27:39He had had years and years of developing artists, but he didn't have a publishing company that had, as he

00:27:46would say,

00:27:46a whole toolbox full of other tools I could use that I didn't have before.

00:27:50Yeah.

00:27:50He would meet a rock band.

00:27:51He was a developer.

00:27:53He, himself, Chad, and the band would sit there and they would write every song together

00:27:57and send the band down to the basement of this studio barn they had, have them rehearse,

00:28:01hear they're messing up, go down there and teach them how to play the part.

00:28:04Like, it was true building it, you know, like a house.

00:28:08Mm-hmm.

00:28:08It would take him nine months per band sometimes.

00:28:09And so when he came here, his mind was blown of like, well, this could be a great partnership.

00:28:14And that's how it began.

00:28:16We got together and we each put a little bit of money.

00:28:21We didn't have a lot.

00:28:22We put a little bit of money in an account and we started searching for bands patiently.

00:28:26And we missed on the first two bands we were offering.

00:28:29And all we were offering were publishing deals and a production deal.

00:28:32A production deal meant we were going to invest in your career, pay for all the recordings, pay for the

00:28:36images,

00:28:37pay for everything we need to get it going.

00:28:40And then we're prepared to release it independently with you and try to build fans.

00:28:45Because if we build fans, then the labels will show interest.

00:28:48And remember, this was in a much different time.

00:28:50Like, this was 2011, 2010, then through 11 when I started meeting Brian and Tyler.

00:28:56That was our first one, Florida Georgia Line.

00:28:58Mm-hmm.

00:28:59Technically, the third band we offered.

00:29:01We got told no by the first two.

00:29:03The second one was a country artist, a good friend still today.

00:29:06We were all at his showcase and he kept pointing out two guys at the bar that he was,

00:29:10oh, I wrote this song with those two guys over there.

00:29:12And to my ear, it was a little more elevated song, a little bit better in his set.

00:29:16Mm-hmm.

00:29:16And I realized when I was standing in that room, I wasn't going to get the guy on stage.

00:29:21And so I was getting ready to like lick my wounds or whatever.

00:29:23And he just kept pointing these two guys out.

00:29:25And I was like, they're like drunk over the bar, you know?

00:29:28I was like, you know what?

00:29:29I'm going to go see what's up with these guys.

00:29:30And right during the set, I walked over and I was like, I think I'm supposed to meet you guys.

00:29:34And we just became friends.

00:29:35Wow.

00:29:36And a few months later, they wanted to work with us.

00:29:38They didn't have any competing offers either.

00:29:41And so we signed production and publishing with them.

00:29:43And it was actually a very serendipitous signing because they'd been writing songs at Big Loud a little bit,

00:29:49building up to it, knowing this was going to happen.

00:29:51Mm-hmm.

00:29:51Joey flew in town.

00:29:52It was me, Joey, and Brian and Tyler in the studio.

00:29:55And we all sort of executed the documents.

00:29:57Joey's a little old school then.

00:29:58He didn't really want to start the studio work until it was done.

00:30:00Yeah.

00:30:02And he signed and he swiveled his chair around and the studio still works in today.

00:30:06And I was like, what's the first song we want to do?

00:30:08Here, let's do this one.

00:30:09This is cool.

00:30:09This is Cruise.

00:30:10And it was talking about how serendipitous it was to like put your own money into something.

00:30:15And then later we realized the first song, it was like a movie scene, you know, to look back, if

00:30:20you will.

00:30:21So we did that for a couple artists.

00:30:23Yeah.

00:30:24Florida Georgia Line partnered with Republic and then Scott and Jimmy at Big Machine.

00:30:27The second one also went there.

00:30:29And we had a really good experience at FGL.

00:30:32The second one we did have a good experience, but we learned a lot more, as they say, through failure

00:30:37than you do through success.

00:30:39And there was things that we stopped and thought about and thought, you know what, we should really contemplate expanding

00:30:46to our own record label.

00:30:47Yeah.

00:30:47And stop just doing the production deals and development deals.

00:30:51And we'd had a third artist under a production deal.

00:30:53And that was Chris Lane.

00:30:55Went to Chris and said, this is what our plans are.

00:30:57Would you have any interest in staying?

00:30:58If you don't want, we can find a partner around town.

00:31:02And talked about it a little bit.

00:31:03And he goes, no, I think I want to stay.

00:31:04I love being here.

00:31:05I believe in what you guys are doing.

00:31:06And so we started radio staff, so on and so forth.

00:31:10In that first year of being a full service record label, I bet you we had 100 artists come through

00:31:14the door.

00:31:15And probably near the end of that year, in Walk Morgan.

00:31:18And it was a reference from Kevin Neal.

00:31:21Morgan's manager now, Austin Neal's dad, Kevin Neal.

00:31:25And he was Florida Georgia Line and Jason Aldean and many others, legendary booking agent.

00:31:30He had met Morgan through a manager contact friend of his that had just met Morgan in Knoxville and was

00:31:36bringing him here.

00:31:37And he just called me to say, could you help this guy get some co-writes?

00:31:39Yeah.

00:31:40And at the time, had he just done The Voice?

00:31:44Yes.

00:31:44I might be foggy on the exact timeline from The Voice to him meeting me how many months it was.

00:31:48Okay.

00:31:48But what I do remember is he had had a break.

00:31:52I didn't know him yet.

00:31:53But when he was filming The Voice, I believe how it goes is he had a break in Los Angeles,

00:31:56goes home to Knoxville.

00:31:58The show had told all the contestants, we recommend you to go home and engage with vocal coaches just to

00:32:04stay warm, stay fresh, stay sharp.

00:32:05Don't come back here without running reps.

00:32:07So he did do that.

00:32:08He went home and he started working with a vocal coach.

00:32:12Hopefully I have all these details correct.

00:32:13Yeah.

00:32:14The vocal coach was in a rock band that had just lost their record deal on Roadrunner Records.

00:32:19I think it was a band that was called Atom Smash.

00:32:21I have to go look all this up.

00:32:23Yeah.

00:32:23They were still kind of loosely jamming together.

00:32:25And this one band member was doing vocal lessons and he locked up with Morgan.

00:32:30He realized how good a singer Morgan was.

00:32:32And then he had Morgan come sit in with the band in Knoxville and sing with them just to kind

00:32:36of like run reps.

00:32:38The band was not touring anymore.

00:32:40And actually, guys, the band guys are gonna kill me for this.

00:32:44I'm thinking about how many guys that are still in his band today that were in that band.

00:32:47Mm-hmm.

00:32:48Taco, Dom, I don't think Tyler was.

00:32:52But anyway, my point being is the first band Morgan came to Nashville with were these guys.

00:32:56Mm-hmm.

00:32:56And so it was really in his own way a very cool story of how he linked up with these

00:32:59folks.

00:33:00And so, yeah, that vocal coach called the managers.

00:33:02The managers worked with him.

00:33:03They called Kevin.

00:33:04Mm-hmm.

00:33:05And then he wound up on our doorstep.

00:33:07Wow.

00:33:07And yeah, I'll just never forget that first meeting.

00:33:10Yeah.

00:33:10He was singing a few songs he had written.

00:33:13Songs were just okay.

00:33:15Mm-hmm.

00:33:15But you expect that in those first meetings.

00:33:17You know?

00:33:17You don't expect them to just have everything figured out.

00:33:20But I'll never forget, we ask a lot of artists in those moments like,

00:33:23Hey, was there a song on radio the last four or five years to you that had that song been

00:33:27given to you?

00:33:27This is me.

00:33:28Mm-hmm.

00:33:28You know, play me one.

00:33:30And of course, Morgan, we knew it kind of coming in.

00:33:33But he's at Eric Church, especially then.

00:33:35And now they're real friends in life and real buddies.

00:33:38Eric's a mentor to him.

00:33:39But he's an Eric Church fanatic.

00:33:40And so he's like, without skipping a beat, he's like, yeah, let me play you this song.

00:33:44And his guitar player starts playing Talladega.

00:33:47Morgan starts singing it and realizes that it was like a key or two.

00:33:51I think it was like two steps too high.

00:33:53So, you know, you're supposed to kind of sing.

00:33:55Home plate should kind of be your talking voice.

00:33:57But he was up here at the start of the song, which means it was going to get out of

00:34:00range quick.

00:34:02And he almost does the thing where he stops him and says, stop, stop, stop.

00:34:05Let's get in the right key.

00:34:06And he started to.

00:34:07And he's like, you know what?

00:34:07Screw it.

00:34:08Run it.

00:34:08I'll do it.

00:34:09And he sang the whole song, I think, two keys higher than he was natural.

00:34:15And that showed us more than I like him doing the wrong key showed me more.

00:34:19And Joey and I just kept looking at each other like, well, we can't let this guy get out of

00:34:22the building.

00:34:23Well, he's going to be he's got this this special superpower of a talent.

00:34:28And he knew who he was.

00:34:29He was so authentic.

00:34:31And so anyway, that was a also a very serendipitous first meeting.

00:34:35Yeah.

00:34:35And he was the second artist signed to our full service now fully expanded record label.

00:34:40Yeah.

00:34:41And off off we went.

00:34:42Yeah.

00:34:43And for a while you managed him and were the label, right?

00:34:46Correct.

00:34:46I didn't manage him at first.

00:34:47Matter of fact, one thing I want to clarify, I never managed any acts that I didn't develop.

00:34:52Our whole goal was to was to develop acts.

00:34:54I jokingly tell people my goal was to be Joe Galani, who was one of the biggest record label presidents

00:35:00of our time in Nashville.

00:35:02And then somehow I got in my Clarence Spalding bag, if you will, for 15 years.

00:35:06I didn't mean to.

00:35:07It was only I blame Florida Georgia Line.

00:35:10But I also thank them for that because I feel like I had a wealth of experience by doing so.

00:35:16But what was funny is I also knew that wasn't the life that I that I necessarily wanted.

00:35:22And I knew one day when I met.

00:35:24Are you referring to management?

00:35:25Yes.

00:35:25Management specifically.

00:35:27Got it.

00:35:27Even though, like I said, I appreciate every skill that I developed then.

00:35:30And I actually think today, now that I'm just doing label and pub, I would like to think I really

00:35:34get along with my artists and managers well.

00:35:37And if that's true, hopefully that's true to them, they understand this because I was in their seat so much.

00:35:43As a manager, the label can't always empathize with what you're going through or what's important to you and why

00:35:48it's important to you and those things.

00:35:50So I'd like to think that I can get on their level.

00:35:52I still think I'm managing every artist.

00:35:55I'm more their consultant.

00:35:56I'll get called by the manager.

00:35:57Can you talk to him about this or that?

00:36:00Yeah.

00:36:00And so I knew that when I had kids one day and our first was oldest son was born in

00:36:062022.

00:36:07I was talking about it openly in front of my clients.

00:36:09It wasn't like it was a secret.

00:36:10Yeah.

00:36:10I was like, you know, when the T-ball years come, I'm probably going to step out just because like,

00:36:16you know.

00:36:17You mean you don't want to get that management call at 2 a.m.

00:36:19I've just broke up with my girlfriend.

00:36:21What do I do?

00:36:22Or I lost my passport.

00:36:24Or need bailed out of jail.

00:36:25You know, either one, any of any of all those, you run the gamut.

00:36:28Doesn't matter what happened, you're going to get the call, you know.

00:36:30And more so, I kind of said it jokingly, but I was like, if any of my artists would feel

00:36:33let down that I was coaching T-ball on a Saturday instead of side stage at Wembley Stadium, then I

00:36:37better, you know.

00:36:39Okay.

00:36:40So that's why you and Morgan decided to part ways on the management side?

00:36:43Well, it was even bigger than that for him, for sure.

00:36:44I mean, his career was so massive.

00:36:46And actually, he and his now manager, Austin, Austin was his agent.

00:36:50Okay.

00:36:50Yeah.

00:36:51And so, to be honest with you, if he and I weren't going to work together, that's the very best

00:36:54situation.

00:36:55Mm-hmm.

00:36:56Because we're all still close friends, you know what I mean?

00:36:58Got it.

00:36:58We speak as friends about each other's lives, not just work.

00:37:01And in my view, that makes us better co-workers.

00:37:04Yeah.

00:37:04Right?

00:37:05And also with Morgan, he and I, the number one thing that I think, you know, needs preserved was our

00:37:10creative collaboration.

00:37:11Mm-hmm.

00:37:12We needed to be able to make music together.

00:37:14And so, at the same time, the story I was telling, I was looking at my two sons, like, well,

00:37:18this is what I said when I said I was going to lay it down anyway.

00:37:20So, I think it was honestly God's timing.

00:37:23Like, it was the way it was supposed to be.

00:37:24And candidly, I think I have a better relationship with all my acts today than not necessarily have to be

00:37:29the one to go on the bus and go, okay, let's go through the manager's checklist.

00:37:32Mm-hmm.

00:37:32Because, you know, no matter how good your relationship is, you kind of resent the responsibility after a while.

00:37:38It's a huge responsibility.

00:37:39Yeah.

00:37:39I get to go up and be the song guy and marketing guy and album rollout strategist and what's going

00:37:44on in your life?

00:37:44How you doing?

00:37:45You know, and just have a nice balance with it.

00:37:47So, you know, long road getting here, but I'm so thankful where we're at right now.

00:37:51Yeah.

00:37:51I mean, I feel like I'm starting to see so many hybrid companies where I see it a lot where

00:37:56it starts as a management company and then the management company moves into label and pub.

00:38:00I do think that's because for managers, it's often, it's a very vulnerable position to be a manager.

00:38:05Like with a label or a publisher, you do get some sort of IP ownership or a license for a

00:38:11while.

00:38:12Whereas with management, you know, you might get 20% while you're still with them, which can be lucrative.

00:38:17But if you guys part ways, I mean, you know, there's not much left over at the end.

00:38:22So I feel like I've seen a lot of managers kind of move into the label pub game.

00:38:26But I think the criticism I see of that sometimes is that you don't want to double dip or you

00:38:33don't want a manager who is just going to say yes to everything the label does.

00:38:38Sometimes the manager needs to step in and check the label.

00:38:40Did you ever have any fears of having those multiple roles at once end up contradicting each other or causing

00:38:49conflict?

00:38:49Not necessarily for the reason and the way you asked the question, but just because you asked the one thing

00:38:53like on the money side of it, for example, just since the music business podcast, one thing I want to

00:38:58say that's so important.

00:38:59Yeah. And I would hear that. Oh, you can't have this. You can't have these people do both roles.

00:39:03Well, why? Well, you double dip. I'm like, well, that's taken care of. We don't double dip. We don't. I

00:39:07don't take money from them twice.

00:39:09Yeah, I'm their partner. I'm their matter of fact.

00:39:11In fact, it was always my goal if I was multiple roles with someone that when you looked at a

00:39:16waterfall that they made just bluntly speaking more money with me than if they were in each individual role, not

00:39:21to incentivize that, but to to clear that part out.

00:39:25That's this is not why we're doing this. You know, to what I said earlier, it was never my goal.

00:39:28Like I, I only started managing Morgan when he had fallen out with some managers that weren't the right fit

00:39:33for him.

00:39:34Mm hmm. But we were already down the road being his investor and he saw us having a booming management

00:39:38company and his natural inclination was to come and say, can you help help me out?

00:39:43I'm in a less than ideal situation. And a lot of people may not realize how, you know, folks like

00:39:49ourselves would work for someone for less than the role even just because we're his partner.

00:39:53So I think that's there's two sides of that. When you are really someone's partner, there's things that you will

00:39:59do do for someone than if you were just one piece to their wheel.

00:40:03That was at least my perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:05And so I would like to think that most my acts definitely look back and saw the benefits of that

00:40:11as opposed to negatives.

00:40:13That being said, I was never territorial. If you want to go, let's co-manage, get someone to help us.

00:40:17And I had co-managers in terms of day to day managers then who now have their own companies.

00:40:22Mm hmm. You know, Tracker has gone on, has his own management company. I'm so proud to watch him go.

00:40:26Hardy went with him and turned into a beautiful thing for a lot of people instead of something just ended,

00:40:32if you will.

00:40:32You know, you're seeing you're seeing that happen. But no, I don't.

00:40:35At the same time, people sometimes give that warning because you've seen reasons for people to give that warning.

00:40:40Yeah. Right. It's not always. Yeah. A bad person in that position could exploit it.

00:40:44But there are also a lot of people who, who don't exploit it. It's just, it's just one of those

00:40:48things.

00:40:48I will say though, I mean, we're here to be honest. I, I feel like when I was primarily managing

00:40:55only in terms of like being a big source of revenue, there were moments where, you know, look, we're there

00:41:00to, to work for the artist, their job, it's their career, it's their business.

00:41:05But what I will say is there, it's an emotional sport. It is.

00:41:10So, and things go wrong at times. It's not necessarily anybody's fault, but someone's to answer for it, you know,

00:41:16and, and it can be a vulnerable feeling when you're like, oh, look, you know, if I don't make this

00:41:20artist happy tonight or this quarter or this year, what this rollout that I could lose my job.

00:41:27And there's nothing that can be done about it. There's no security in it. There's no, so yet, you know,

00:41:31you'll see a lot of industry podcasts talking about the relationship of artists and manager and you'll hear stories of

00:41:36people feeling like the manager got left high and dry. Thankfully, I never went through that.

00:41:39I didn't have a horror story to, to tell. Um, but there were certain moments where, you know, artists have

00:41:45multiple teammates who are independent, whether it be the business manager, the agent, publicist, blah, blah, blah.

00:41:52And they all have their own views and they speak independently to the artist, you know? So, so let's say,

00:41:57for example, you don't find some of those people to, to be overly trusting and a good teammate, then you

00:42:03feel vulnerable.

00:42:04And you're like, you know what? So it wasn't about getting more rights for us. We were the second kind,

00:42:10I think you said, where we were production company and publishing and I fell into management versus I was a

00:42:15manager that fell into those things.

00:42:17So mine was unique, but I am seeing a lot of what you're talking about because the managers are developing,

00:42:23putting, putting their own dollars into it.

00:42:25And I know five of them as we're sitting here, I'm thinking about right now who are good managers to

00:42:30what I was talking about.

00:42:31No double dipping, advantageous business for the artist, you know?

00:42:36And so when you can accomplish all those things and you come out to your record deal with the majors

00:42:40that you have better terms, better rates to the artist, better budgets, all of it, then it was a win.

00:42:46And I don't, I don't really see how you could look at that and, and, uh, try to pick it

00:42:50apart.

00:42:51The outcome worked, you know, and, uh, hopefully when it worked, the person you partnered with was a big factor

00:42:57in that and helping make that work.

00:42:59So, yeah, but like you said, it's not one size fits all. There's a reason for all sorts of stories.

00:43:03And we just try to be good people, treat people right. And you're talking about these kids who like Craig

00:43:07Wiseman replaced so many transmissions in people's trucks that was never recoupable.

00:43:11Yeah. You know what I mean? That when I got, when I got time to talk about money, they never

00:43:15looked at us for the most part and thought we were ever trying to take anything that we didn't partner

00:43:20in on and earn.

00:43:21And so, yeah, this episode is brought to you by the RIAA or the Recording Industry Association of America.

00:43:27The RIAA represents hundreds of member companies, whether that's the major music groups behind today's biggest artists or independent and

00:43:35artist run labels.

00:43:36And they advocate for the policies, protections and rights that keep the American music industry strong.

00:43:41That means fighting for intellectual property rights, monitoring state and federal legislation like the No Fakes Act, and making the

00:43:49case for a music ecosystem where artists, labels and creative partnerships can actually thrive.

00:43:54Beyond their advocacy for the music business, the RIAA is also known as the organization behind the gold, platinum and

00:44:00diamond certifications that mark some of the most significant milestones in an artist's career.

00:44:05If you'd like to learn more about this organization and their role in your favorite music, head to RIAA.com.

00:44:12And so I wanted to shift to talk about radio.

00:44:15I feel like radio is a very important topic within country music.

00:44:19That is still a place where country music thrives.

00:44:23I think in pop music, you see, obviously, there are really good royalty rates for pop artists if they do

00:44:27break into radio.

00:44:29But it's kind of like the last thing at the end of, you know, going viral on TikTok, doing well

00:44:36on streaming, then radio might come at the end.

00:44:38And I'm wondering, has country radio evolved in recent years?

00:44:45Has it become kind of like pop where it's the end destination or is it still breaking songs?

00:44:50Great question.

00:44:51I definitely think without a doubt country radio has moved a bit more with the times.

00:44:55With the times meaning let's be a megaphone of the records that are breaking.

00:45:02That being said, I will say in the last year or so, I've given a lot more thought because you're

00:45:07even starting to see shifts happen on on-demand streaming where, although there's huge playlists, why would you not want

00:45:14to have your music on New Music Friday and Today's Top Hits, Hot Country, Alt Nation, all this.

00:45:18But truthfully, I think we'll all find out in the future what exactly is shifting.

00:45:24But I think you're starting to see a bit of a shifting culture even around the streaming and playlists where,

00:45:29you know, we have this rock band going right now, Dexter and the Moon Rocks.

00:45:32It's huge.

00:45:33The song is out of here.

00:45:34It's going crazy right now.

00:45:35Crazy.

00:45:36Yeah.

00:45:36They got on some massive play.

00:45:38I'd have to fact check this because I don't have the full reflection on Today's Top Hits.

00:45:41But it still applies in that they had Mero and Rock and all these other big lists that there were

00:45:45their goals.

00:45:46And they're like, man, I wish I could get a song on this.

00:45:48And they did.

00:45:49And still yet, the editorial is just 5% of their streaming.

00:45:53The rest of it's active audience.

00:45:54That used to be able to be something that could break songs.

00:45:56I remember seeing it like five years ago.

00:45:58Not the case anymore.

00:45:59It's cool.

00:46:00It's great.

00:46:01But by the way, I just want to I think in theory it can, but it's happening so far fewer

00:46:06and it would only happen to the songs that are going to convert.

00:46:09Interesting.

00:46:09Meaning to get in a playlist does not mean you're going to convert.

00:46:12Matter of fact, it might only lead you to the faster result to show you don't convert.

00:46:17That's what's different about previously the gatekeepers who we talk to every day and still collaborate with.

00:46:23This is not an attack on them.

00:46:24I'm just talking about the change in the times.

00:46:25Previously, the gatekeepers chose what was popular in our genre.

00:46:29Yeah.

00:46:29In every genre.

00:46:30Totally.

00:46:30Now, the fans tell the gatekeepers what to playlist.

00:46:34So, I think there's also this radio-like nature happening with streaming.

00:46:40And I'm not saying it's reverse, but being that country music has still been localized, meaning if we want to

00:46:45go to radio, we typically need to send our artists on a bit of a radio tour, a lot of

00:46:49Southwest Plains.

00:46:50You know what I mean?

00:46:51It's different than every other genre.

00:46:53There's a lot of hand-to-hand combat that goes into it.

00:46:55There's actually a plausible argument now that I think over time, if radio stays local, you could build an audience

00:47:02in that local market, even if you're not chasing the chart, and you could then see the benefit over to

00:47:07streaming.

00:47:08So, I don't know if that's a bit of a premonition or a foreshadow.

00:47:11Yeah.

00:47:11I don't know if it's ever going to 180 back.

00:47:13Yeah.

00:47:14Right?

00:47:14Because previously, we didn't have streaming.

00:47:16It was just radio.

00:47:16Yeah.

00:47:17Country music, it was one lane up, one lane down.

00:47:19Everybody wins.

00:47:19Everybody comes down.

00:47:20Yeah.

00:47:21I don't like that either.

00:47:22I don't think that's real life.

00:47:23Mm-hmm.

00:47:23I would personally rather have an environment where Ella Langley stays at number one for 10 weeks, if she's the

00:47:29top song for 10 weeks.

00:47:30And it's not to be rude to nine other songs, but there's no reason to take that song out of

00:47:35there.

00:47:35And that's what you see in pop radio and how they see and rock.

00:47:38For whatever reason, we've had a few moments where we'll let it stay in there.

00:47:41But if we did, it would give you the answer to your question.

00:47:46Mm-hmm.

00:47:46Because then it would kind of be like you would just use other chart positions to grow active audience.

00:47:51Yeah.

00:47:52Hopefully.

00:47:52Mm-hmm.

00:47:53And then you would turn that active audience into probably upgrades and streaming.

00:47:57Yeah.

00:47:57So, yeah, I don't know.

00:47:58That didn't answer your question.

00:47:59I actually think it might be going to reverse relationship than what we've thought of the last 10 years.

00:48:06But I don't know.

00:48:06We'll see.

00:48:07That's interesting.

00:48:08I mean, so when I was preparing for this interview, I talked to our country music editor, Melinda Newman, who

00:48:13was singing Y'all's praises and was talking about how interesting she found Big Loud to be.

00:48:18Because she was saying that she feels like Big Loud was very early to see that streaming was coming, even

00:48:24though country fans tend to adopt new formats a little bit slower than some other genres.

00:48:29Yes.

00:48:29So can you tell me about that early streaming strategy and why you guys decided?

00:48:34It almost feels like you guys were thinking like a coastal label.

00:48:37Definitely.

00:48:38And leaning into that.

00:48:39So tell me more about that.

00:48:40Well, if that's true, you know, especially my earliest years in music business, I was on planes as much as

00:48:46I could to make relationships in New York and L.A., specifically other genres, in particular hip hop, once, especially

00:48:53when on-demand streaming started.

00:48:54Because you saw the initial boom just happen with hip hop where it was the rave.

00:48:59It was dominating every chart position.

00:49:01And subjectively speaking, I don't know exactly why that is.

00:49:04My best guess is on-demand streaming really saturated early in metropolitan markets.

00:49:08Mm-hmm.

00:49:09Right?

00:49:09Not to state like the most obvious blunt thing, but like the density of high-speed Wi-Fi in metropolitan

00:49:16cities versus, you know, my parents where they live in Illinois, they still don't have high-speed internet.

00:49:21Yeah.

00:49:21So some of country music's rural fans may not, like they're sitting there thinking about their Verizon bill if they

00:49:26want to stream.

00:49:27Yeah, fair enough.

00:49:29Fair enough.

00:49:29I literally wonder to myself sometimes how much that factored the delay of country music.

00:49:34Think about it.

00:49:34That's fascinating because I was going to say that I thought that they adopted things slower because it tends to

00:49:40be more of an older audience maybe than your average.

00:49:42True.

00:49:43True.

00:49:43I think that's also true.

00:49:44Yeah.

00:49:44I think that's probably more true than what I'm saying, but I think there's...

00:49:47But I think that's a factor.

00:49:48I think you're onto something with that.

00:49:49I definitely think that.

00:49:50Also, yeah, on-demand streaming had an initial, you know, arm's length feeling from some folks in Nashville, and I

00:49:58didn't agree.

00:49:59I knew there were problems that needed addressed, fair songwriter pay, rates, even the label, all that.

00:50:04I think it all needed addressed, but yet my view was we needed to figure out while it was moving.

00:50:09Let's not Napster this era too.

00:50:12Yeah.

00:50:13Meaning let's not lean out and then let it move past us.

00:50:17Let's lean in.

00:50:18And so that was happening in the Florida Georgia Line era, and so therefore I'd take all my Morgan and

00:50:24Chris Lane, whoever I had, their songs with me to make sure they got early access.

00:50:28Hopefully to playlists and whatnot.

00:50:31But I'll definitely, going back to FGL, I'll never forget they had that song, Holy.

00:50:37Big music video they shot in Australia.

00:50:38It was just a beautiful, beautiful video.

00:50:41We knew we had something special.

00:50:43I thought we had a crossover record.

00:50:45And at that time, every label was kind of up in arms with Spotify and Apple Music and trying to

00:50:51figure out what this environment was going to be like.

00:50:53Totally.

00:50:54I personally felt like I was reading, I was reading so many music business articles that I was reading stories

00:50:59out of like Sweden, of course Sweden, but like how in just a few years it had accounted for 96

00:51:05% of the revenue from the music or something to this degree.

00:51:09I fact checked on there, but it was the test to say, you know what, the rest of the world

00:51:15could adopt this, and I don't know if we'll be as saturated as Sweden is, but wow, the music business

00:51:20could bounce back in a major way.

00:51:22So I hear everything everyone's saying, but are we looking away from the fact from a macro level this is

00:51:27going to be an amazing thing and is going to saturate the genre?

00:51:29Back to your question.

00:51:30So the label FGL was with was not so certain at that moment that we wanted to go give any

00:51:35priority.

00:51:36And I flew to New York and I met with Mike Begain and Doug Ford, the godfathers of the playlist

00:51:44era, if you will.

00:51:44Totally.

00:51:45We played them the video of Holy.

00:51:48They flipped out, and I'll never forget, like I didn't even know how significant it was.

00:51:52And they said, would you like to be the first country artist to be them?

00:51:54Of course, FGL to be the first country artist to be the cover of New Music Friday.

00:51:59And I was like, I don't think I'm supposed to say yes to this, but yes, absolutely, let's do it.

00:52:04And I'll tell you, that was probably in my view, the single biggest thing that happened to that song and

00:52:09that band at that time, and it was off to the races.

00:52:11And then Big Loud had a really strong relationship with Spotify early because of moments like that, and that only

00:52:17benefited artists like Morgan and whoever else we were working with.

00:52:20But they were just there at the forefront and really, really saturated on those playlists.

00:52:24Yeah, that's interesting to think about Florida-Georgia Line as kind of one of those first breakthroughs for country.

00:52:29Because, I mean, when I think people think about the streaming era, they also think about Morgan as such a

00:52:34dominant force in streaming, more so than a lot of other big country acts, even, you know, five, ten years

00:52:41later than the Florida-Georgia Line moment that you're talking about.

00:52:44But I want to go back to something that you said, I thought it was so interesting, pointing out that

00:52:48there's a lot of rural fans and small town fans of country music, and how maybe they don't have access

00:52:54to the high-speed internet.

00:52:54But another challenge that I think that presents is that you have such a diffuse audience.

00:53:00And so I imagine touring for country music, you have to think about it a little bit differently because you

00:53:05have fans who are in rural Alabama that are dying to see Morgan Wallen or Hardy or whoever.

00:53:12So how do you approach touring differently in country music, knowing that there are so many rural fans?

00:53:18Great question.

00:53:21Well, I don't know if you're aware, but in country music, there's, roughly speaking, whatever it is, 150 to 160

00:53:27stations, you know, every month or quarter, however they do that.

00:53:30Some get removed from the panel, some add to the panel.

00:53:33You know what makes up like the Billboard chart, right?

00:53:36Same for MediaBase.

00:53:38Well, I don't know the amount, but outside of that 150, those are all now called secondary, like tertiary or

00:53:46secondary markets.

00:53:47And in country music, we have a secondary radio chart.

00:53:51Interesting.

00:53:51On the Big Loud label staff, we have a guy named Lisa Smoot, who I've worked with for years.

00:53:56Her dad, Jerry Duncan, had Jerry Duncan promotions, and they would be a third-party source.

00:54:01I hired them for Florida Georgia Line and others.

00:54:03And they would go out and work Carbondale, Illinois.

00:54:07They'd go work, I can't remember, like Huntsville, Alabama, as a secondary or a reporter.

00:54:12I'm going to say one that I don't mean to offend.

00:54:15But the point is, let's take Carbondale, Illinois for a second.

00:54:18Southern Illinois University, Carbondale, and the surrounding city, they listened to that radio station in those surrounding areas at a

00:54:25larger market share than 97.9 in Nashville.

00:54:29So the influence was so, so big.

00:54:32Then we would see, is there a bar or a venue in that town that has shows regularly and can

00:54:37sell hard tickets?

00:54:39Because if there is, then let's really focus on that station to get the FGL songs on or Morgan songs

00:54:44on,

00:54:44and then we're going to go play a show at this campus bar.

00:54:46But you've got to also remember, most of the secondary towns may not have that connection.

00:54:51They've got a station, but they may not have a perennial venue, or they may not have a campus that

00:54:56can bring Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights, you know, and throw an event.

00:55:00So we were really looking for some select markets where we could do that.

00:55:04But in the FGL case, I'll never forget, there's a guy named Dusty out of St. Louis, music director, PD

00:55:10now, at a reporting station.

00:55:13And he's significant in their life because when we were still independent, Cruz was going crazy.

00:55:18And this is back when a lot of the stations did the Friday at 5, or excuse me, every day

00:55:21at 5 p.m., you know, this song versus that song challenge.

00:55:25And then you'd have like a champion if they'd win all five days, that was a massive thing for this

00:55:29station or whatever.

00:55:31And he put FGL Cruise on it because we, it wasn't by design, but in the exterior of St. Louis,

00:55:38there's actually a high volume of secondary markets in Illinois and Missouri.

00:55:42Mexico City, Missouri, I think's one.

00:55:44Springfield, Missouri, or that might be a main one, but Sykeston.

00:55:48We had all the stations around St. Louis.

00:55:50Every single one of them, because Lisa Smoot and Jerry were working it like crazy.

00:55:54And they started getting calls from folks driving through St. Louis, play that song, Cruz by Florida Georgia Line.

00:56:00Dusty'd go look into his record label files and like, I don't know this band.

00:56:03Who is this?

00:56:04And it truly happened the old-fashioned way where that happened.

00:56:07And Dusty's like, all right, I've had enough on Monday.

00:56:09I'm going to put them up against whoever it was.

00:56:12I'll never forget that they beat Lee Bryce, I Drive Your Truck.

00:56:15And there was a Taylor Swift song on there.

00:56:17By the end of the week, he called his regional rep, Joe Jamie Hare, who's now at BMG, was working

00:56:22for Scott Dent and said,

00:56:23I'm telling you, you've got to check this band.

00:56:25They just won five days in a row.

00:56:27And Scott had previously passed on the band.

00:56:29He wasn't available at that moment and had the capacity.

00:56:32And then that's the kind of call you get that reverses that decision.

00:56:35And he called and said, okay, I'm getting calls from stations.

00:56:37We might want to talk again.

00:56:40But I credit much of that to secondary radio.

00:56:43We had this big city surrounded.

00:56:44And it permeated into the metropolitan area.

00:56:48And it worked well for them.

00:56:49So when you're touring, you can still go to those metropolitan areas and buy targeting the outside markets.

00:56:55Yeah, because in St. Louis, many of those towns were drivable to the city.

00:56:58And that's what FGL did.

00:56:59After Dusty started playing this.

00:57:00Oh, before.

00:57:01But then even after.

00:57:02We'd go play the venue there, the pageant.

00:57:06The venue owners have some small ones.

00:57:07It's the Blue Room or the Blue Something just down the road.

00:57:11And yeah, they play that a few times and pack it out.

00:57:14And, you know, they build a super fan really well.

00:57:16And figure out how they're going to mobilize them and get more people there and all that stuff.

00:57:19I think pop music is interesting because every few years there's another genre that it's kind of taking inspiration from.

00:57:26So I think like 2016-ish, you started seeing rap being the primary influence.

00:57:30Then maybe like an all R&B.

00:57:33And there was even a moment during the pandemic where pop punk was cool.

00:57:36Right now it feels like country is the one.

00:57:40But pop fans are kind of fickle.

00:57:42They move on.

00:57:43So how do you expect Nashville to be changed after inevitably pop moves on to some other genre and starts

00:57:51taking inspiration from that?

00:57:53It's a great question.

00:57:53And I think it will happen.

00:57:55Like music is cyclical, as you mentioned.

00:57:57Pop is popular.

00:57:59Pop is popular music, you know.

00:58:01To go down pop radio, there's certainly some artists.

00:58:04It's Sabrina, Ariana, Olivia Rodrigo.

00:58:09Although even with Olivia's music, that's kind of alt-y rock to me at times.

00:58:12It is.

00:58:13Unless I'm wrong, I believe she lists it in pop music.

00:58:16Yes.

00:58:16But to what you're saying is pop radio primarily is built of, you know, let's say X number of those,

00:58:22not all of those, not all pop stars, a handful of mainstays, that that's their genre.

00:58:29But then they pull crossover records from alt-rock, rhythmic radio, country radio, hot AC, AAA.

00:58:36It can come from any other sort of subculture.

00:58:39I think that will never change.

00:58:41It historically was that way, to your point.

00:58:43You pointed out times where it's, okay, hip-hop seemed to be so crossover-ish in 2010s and late, you

00:58:50know, countries then having its heyday.

00:58:53It could change.

00:58:54You could have maybe less country songs up ahead, but I will always think you'll have the top two or

00:58:58three songs from our genre.

00:59:00Always.

00:59:01Like, Ella's Choose in Texas does not sound like pop radio, but it, by God, is popular majorly.

00:59:08And it actually kind of hits like a pop record underneath the surface in terms of the hit factor of

00:59:11it.

00:59:12Great song.

00:59:13Great song.

00:59:14Fantastic song.

00:59:14So I think that's going to happen in the future, predominantly.

00:59:18Country, although it will go through cycles like anybody else, one thing I'll mention is I had read an article

00:59:23about the listening habits.

00:59:25Something we don't focus on enough are fans' listening habits.

00:59:28We sometimes think our job is to convert fans to be casual to passionate.

00:59:35That's not, that's less possible, right, rather than finding a super fan of another genre and just teaching them about

00:59:42country music.

00:59:43Interesting.

00:59:44It's true.

00:59:44Changing someone's listening habit is so hard.

00:59:48Like, there is no exact percentage, but 10% of music fans are the actual ones who care.

00:59:54They go find it.

00:59:54They go seek.

00:59:56The other 90% predominantly let it come to them.

00:59:59So, but what's neat about country music as compared to other genres is it has the highest percentage of people

01:00:06who go seek and they want to invest in the artist.

01:00:09They lean forward listen, and that means I searched an artist's name or I searched a song.

01:00:14Not picking on any other genre, but like Latin, for example, I think in the same study I read, has

01:00:19the highest percentage of lean back listeners.

01:00:21Yeah, I can see that.

01:00:22I can see that.

01:00:23Playlist oriented, let the music come to them.

01:00:25Perhaps I turn it on in a certain mood of time, a vibe.

01:00:27But, so country music, I will say, hopefully has some version of staying power in that by nature the fan

01:00:32really, really cares about the subject and the human.

01:00:35The song leads them to want to know more about the human, whereas in other genres sometimes it just stops

01:00:40at the song.

01:00:41Yeah.

01:00:41The song, yeah.

01:00:42I mean, I think one thing you can always give to a country fan is that they have loyalty over

01:00:46time.

01:00:46How many country stars do you see that like 20 years down the line they're still making hit records?

01:00:50You don't see that in pop.

01:00:51People move on.

01:00:52Right.

01:00:53It's really hard to be a pop star.

01:00:54I mean, Taylor Swift is a great example of someone who's managed to have staying power for an extremely long

01:00:59period of time.

01:00:59Actually did start in country, but now would be considered a pop star.

01:01:02But most people don't get anywhere close to that in pop music.

01:01:06I don't think country's done.

01:01:07I mean, certainly we could have cyclical years where things change, but I always think it's going to be one

01:01:11of the top genres forever.

01:01:13And I think there's a certain someone out there in our genre whose music is not on all platforms.

01:01:19And I believe there's actually a massive supercharged moment when he, if and when he decides to do that, it's

01:01:28going to change our genre again for three or four years because of the impact of his music.

01:01:33Like, you know, in a way, I wish he had had his music on longer because, or for the years

01:01:39we've been talking about here.

01:01:39But since we're here, it's interesting because he could make a tremendous decision and jolt the genre again by coming

01:01:46back to platform, you know, and therefore any artists who are also inspired by him, you know, being that they

01:01:54work off algorithms so much now, right?

01:01:56Like if, if the person whom you sound like are inspired by, or you got a hat and a buckle

01:02:01and, you know, you don't have to have the, you know, the mic coming down, but if you got all

01:02:06the other elements, their music will lead people to recommendations of other, other artists.

01:02:11And so it may not be that one person's responsibility, but I do think it's their opportunity.

01:02:16And I think it's in the next few years, I really hope to see Garth come back online and re

01:02:22-permeate his music everywhere because I think the genre will take a massive lift.

01:02:26So moments like that, that we know are up ahead.

01:02:28There's a face card yet to play, if you will.

01:02:30If you're thinking about it genre wise, I think the genre stays strong for the next decade minimum.

01:02:34Yeah.

01:02:35Yeah.

01:02:35I see it too.

01:02:36Okay.

01:02:36Well, I have been talking to you, unfortunately, for too long.

01:02:39So we have to move on to our final game and then we'll wrap this up.

01:02:42Okay.

01:02:43So at the end of every episode of On The Record, I play a game called What Would You Cue?

01:02:47And this is just to kind of figure out what your music taste is like, some of the songs that

01:02:51have inspired you.

01:02:52So just pick one song per prompt.

01:02:54I have four prompts here.

01:02:55So the first one is, what would you cue to take you back to your childhood?

01:03:00If I had to choose one for today's answer only, I'm going to go with Smoke on the Water.

01:03:05However, when I was in middle school, I finally, well, before that, you know, I was in a very religious,

01:03:10faith-based household.

01:03:12I would only get to listen to music that like, you know, Christian music made these posters that said like,

01:03:16if you like Run DMC, you should listen to like DC Talk.

01:03:19And if you, you know what I'm saying?

01:03:21Like, if you like Christina Aguilera, try Joy Williams or whatever it is.

01:03:25And so I just listened to the right side.

01:03:27So in middle school, I finally, I got to go to my first secular concert, which is interesting.

01:03:32And then I picked up the guitar and started playing.

01:03:35But in my little podunk town, there wasn't necessarily access to like certain music teachers.

01:03:39Totally.

01:03:40There was a man who went to my church, but he's a State Farm insurance salesman named Rick Duzan.

01:03:46I think State Farm.

01:03:47Sorry, Rick, if I messed that up.

01:03:48And my dad hired him to teach me guitar.

01:03:52And he got to use the basement of this insurance office.

01:03:56And I don't know if Rick enjoyed teaching or if he just enjoyed playing and chain smoking cigarettes down there.

01:04:01And he would just, he had stacks of CDs and he was a big classic rock fan, as was my

01:04:05dad.

01:04:05So my dad kind of enjoyed it.

01:04:07He'd come listen to his practice and I'd sit there in his hazy, smoky basement and we would just play

01:04:11southern rock riffs.

01:04:13I don't think we ever touched music theory once.

01:04:14He just told me how to hold the riffs.

01:04:16And so, yeah, I just hear Foghat, that Foghat covered that song, but Smoke on the Water, you know, and

01:04:22the whole Foghat album probably reminds me of that one moment where it impacted my life.

01:04:27That sounds like a great vibe.

01:04:28He sounds like fun.

01:04:29I still smell like smoke, I think.

01:04:32Okay, so what would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?

01:04:36Okay, wait, the song hasn't hit me yet, but Motown.

01:04:40Oh, yes, I hear you're a big fan of Motown.

01:04:42Well, there's a story, there's so many stories in Motown, but the one really quickly is there used to be

01:04:47this law, I don't know if it's still the same way, where the union, the musicians union reps would swing

01:04:52by studios unannounced.

01:04:54There was a law that's something that said, like, you have to have a vocalist on the mic if the

01:04:57band is tracking.

01:04:58To some reason, that protected the band members that they weren't in there aimlessly playing if they weren't singing, because

01:05:04that means they were not recording.

01:05:06Interesting.

01:05:07Historically, they didn't always have the chance to, like, multitrack each part as they went.

01:05:11So if the band is playing, someone should be singing.

01:05:13And there was a young secretary that was sitting there at the front desk, and her job was to watch

01:05:18out the front door, and if the union reps came, she had to sprint back there and tell them.

01:05:22And just start singing?

01:05:23Yeah, well, that was the worst case scenario.

01:05:25Yeah.

01:05:26Start singing, and so anyway, one day this happens, and she runs back there and starts singing.

01:05:32That's what happened.

01:05:33She jumped on the mic and started singing, and I'd been hearing the song all day they were tracking and

01:05:36working on, and her name was Martha.

01:05:41And the guys in the studio and the producer was like, who the hell is singing right now?

01:05:45That's so amazing.

01:05:46Oh, it's just me, boss.

01:05:47It's Martha.

01:05:48You know, the guys are here, whatever.

01:05:50And little by little, they're like, no, that's your record.

01:05:53And that's how Martha, was it Martha and the Vandellas was formed?

01:05:56Are you serious?

01:05:56Yes.

01:05:57Wow.

01:05:58So I'm getting chills talking about it, because I don't have a secretary that I've signed to a record deal

01:06:02yet.

01:06:03Maybe it'll happen.

01:06:04Well, we do have people in the building that got publishing deals later, and they were like an engineer, and

01:06:08they showed songwriting skills.

01:06:09So I just, I don't know.

01:06:11I'm sure there's many other stories that inspire me, but yeah, if I had to pick one, it would be

01:06:16that, because I'm a nerd on the stories behind the scenes.

01:06:19Yeah.

01:06:20Yeah.

01:06:20What would you cue to remember the best concert you've ever been to?

01:06:24I think your first is always your best, in terms of, I was talking about, like, being able to go

01:06:29to a secular concert, you know?

01:06:32And Lynyrd Skynyrd and ZZ Top were the co-headline.

01:06:34They came through Terre Haute, Indiana.

01:06:37And I rode over there with my sophomore in high school cousin, who was just barely 16.

01:06:42My parents let me go to the show, for better or worse.

01:06:44We got there early, never been to one.

01:06:45And the young country artist opened for them, a 6'5 guy with a mullet, and it was Blake Shelton.

01:06:51No way.

01:06:51Yeah, so Blake Shelton was the opener.

01:06:53I think ZZ Top went second that night, then Skynyrd.

01:06:55I don't know now if I was to say my very, very best show I've ever been to that impacted

01:07:00me forever.

01:07:01That's hard to pinpoint one.

01:07:02ACDC in Indianapolis, when I was a little, a year or two after that.

01:07:06Yeah.

01:07:06It was a massive impact, but certainly that first show in Terre Haute, Indiana, at home and center, set the

01:07:10stage for all of it.

01:07:11That's a good pick.

01:07:12And then finally, what would you cue to represent a turning point for Big Loud?

01:07:16Oof, hard to pick one as well.

01:07:18I would pick Whiskey Glasses, Morgan Wallen, and not because it was so big in the end.

01:07:22Not just because it was, oh, here's Morgan's really big bonafide first hit.

01:07:26One of the reasons I would say that, I mean, it is a signature song.

01:07:29Very creative, creatively written.

01:07:32We knew, well, we were basically testing the data and the data sets we were getting from Spotify when it

01:07:37first came in.

01:07:37And if you've seen the movie Moneyball, it's much like that, where you can kind of look at all different

01:07:41attributes.

01:07:42And when you look at the data of a song being streamed versus purchased, it tells you so much more.

01:07:47So much more.

01:07:48Right?

01:07:48You don't know anything after the point of sale.

01:07:50You don't know anything other than what city, how many in that city.

01:07:53And that still helped us when we had, that's all the info we had.

01:07:55But I'll never forget, that song taught us so much about what we were looking for in the data sheets.

01:08:01And he had Up Down, I had The Way I Talk, and then Up Down, and we heard the fans

01:08:04kept saying,

01:08:05I like Whiskey Glasses.

01:08:06I'm like, we know, we're going to get there, we're going to get there, we're going to get,

01:08:08you know, we got to get him up the chart and his name out there before we can get to

01:08:12the one that we think is going to do it.

01:08:13But we still didn't know if the data sheets were going to like,

01:08:16is this going to actually show, like, show itself when we promote it and playlists and radio?

01:08:22And sure enough, it was such a full circle lesson because we were sitting there staring at that data for

01:08:26like a year.

01:08:27We knew something was up.

01:08:28And not many other people were talking about data like that.

01:08:30So we really just tested the theory.

01:08:33And also just then non-data-wise and music business-wise, it's just a great song.

01:08:38It's such a landmark moment for him.

01:08:40And that would just set the stage.

01:08:41That video, if you go back and watch it, he and Hardy are in it together.

01:08:44And it was just, you know, it was a very creative video.

01:08:47But it was also, the video was made of his buddies and things that he had close to him, you

01:08:51know.

01:08:52Things he had access to.

01:08:53I love that.

01:08:53Yeah.

01:08:54That's great.

01:08:55Well, Seth England, thank you for coming to On The Record.

01:08:57Thank you for having me.

01:08:58A lot of fun.

01:08:59All right.

01:08:59Thank you so much to Seth England for joining me today to talk about the changes in the Nashville music

01:09:03industry and the rise of Big Loud.

01:09:05And thank you for listening to this week's episode of On The Record.

01:09:08If you liked today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our brand new TikTok page,

01:09:13at BillboardOnTheRecord, where you can find new clips of the show every single week.

01:09:17We'd also appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:09:21All of these things help On The Record grow bigger and better than ever.

01:09:25Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain of the music

01:09:30business.

01:09:30I'll see you then.

How Did Nashville Become Music’s Hottest Hub w/ Seth England | Billboard On The Record

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