- 4 minutes ago
Christian and Gospel music are having a moment in an evolving industry. Lecrae, four-time Grammy-winning Christian artist and founder of Reach Records, joins Billboard On The Record to break down the genre’s rapid growth, how it’s attracting younger generations and the nuances of combining faith with business. From building his own independent label to staying tapped in with rising artists, Lecrae shares his journey creating a career outside the traditional system, why speaking out matters and what makes Christian music a uniquely powerful and complex space.
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Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.
Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.
Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
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MusicTranscript
00:00Christian and gospel music is going through a serious boom.
00:03According to Luminate's latest report, Christian gospel has risen by 25% from 2024 to 2025,
00:09making it the second fastest growing genre in America behind rock.
00:13New superstars like Forrest Frank, Brandon Lake, and others are making faith-based songs
00:17cool for a TikTok generation, and the mainstream music business is starting to cash in.
00:22My guest today to break down Christian music's rise is Lecrae, a Christian artist and rapper
00:26who's witnessed the genre's evolution throughout his two decades of releasing hit songs.
00:31I'm going to ask him today, how did the Christian and gospel business get this big,
00:36and what makes this space distinct from about every other genre in music?
00:45All right, Lecrae, welcome to On The Record. Thanks for being here.
00:48Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
00:50I'm happy to get you here in LA because you're usually in Atlanta, right?
00:52That's right.
00:53Okay, but we're both from Texas, so we got the same roots. I love that.
00:56Yeah.
00:57I love that.
00:58Yeah, soul, the heartbeat.
00:59Oh, yeah.
01:00Yeah.
01:00So thank you so much for coming.
01:02I really wanted on this season of the show to get into some genres that we haven't really
01:07covered yet, and one of the genres that we have not covered yet, if you could even call
01:10it a genre, is Christian music.
01:13Yeah.
01:13So I'll start there where we can just kind of discuss, I mean, Christian music is kind of
01:20really a subject matter rather than a genre.
01:24Look at you.
01:24Look at you.
01:25Yeah.
01:25Can you kind of break down for me all the different subtypes within Christian and gospel?
01:30It's the only genre that is based off of subject matter, right, or content.
01:37I think it's over 51% of the content is referencing Christian subject matter than it's Christian music.
01:44Interesting.
01:44Yes.
01:45So the only kind of piece of the Christian music industry that has like a unique sound,
01:52so to speak, is gospel, right?
01:54So gospel has a unique sound.
01:56There's different publicists, labels, radio, all those different aspects.
02:02You know, in publishing, we have something, well, CCLI.
02:06It's where churches can license the music that artists write to use them on Sunday mornings.
02:13Interesting.
02:13So a lot of Christian artists who write music make sure that their music is, you know, licensed
02:19through CCLI.
02:21Yeah.
02:21And churches pay a particular fee, which is, I mean, it's pretty lucrative for a lot of
02:28these artists and these writers.
02:29So when you think about songs like How Great Is Our God or something like that, that every
02:33Sunday, the writer of that song is getting paid for that song.
02:38I find that to be so fascinating.
02:39Like being a Christian songwriter with a hit, you're eating for life.
02:45For life.
02:45That is insane to me.
02:47You can make a standard.
02:48Like I don't really think you can get that in any other genre.
02:52Globally, you got to think globally, these churches are using a Chris Talman song and they're
02:57paying for that song.
02:59Every time they use it, every time they sing it on a Sunday.
03:02And I mean, how many churches are there in any given community, any given neighborhood?
03:06I mean, just go to like Kansas City, Missouri, you know, go to Texas.
03:10Oh my God.
03:11Yeah.
03:11And some of these churches have like just gigantic congregations.
03:14And we're talking about the kind of churches that are playing essentially like pop music
03:17in their services or rock music or whatever.
03:21These are congregations of thousands sometimes.
03:24Yeah.
03:24Yeah.
03:25So I know that's sticky subject when you're talking about faith-based music.
03:27Well, yeah.
03:28Yeah.
03:28No, I, that's why I think the Christian music industry is so fascinating because, okay,
03:33the music business in general is already a sticky subject matter because it's a business
03:38whose product is someone's like life's work, their heart and soul poured out into art.
03:43And that's inherently always going to be difficult.
03:46Yep.
03:47When you add faith into it and money, it's, I just like, I imagine it is really, really
03:54sticky.
03:55Tell me about that because you have your own record label, Reach Records.
03:58Yep.
03:59You're an artist.
04:00Yep.
04:00How has it been for you trying to navigate all of those things at once?
04:05When I started off, I went to major labels.
04:08I said, Hey, here's my demo.
04:09Here's my, my, my music.
04:11And a hip hop label said it's too Christian.
04:14So you should take it to the gospel label.
04:15So the gospel label said it's too hip hop.
04:17So we didn't, none of them took us.
04:19So we just kind of created our own lane.
04:21Um, being an artist was, was what I was primarily trying to do, but I had to function as a
04:30label
04:30because no, there was nowhere to distribute my music.
04:34We kind of fell into being an independent label.
04:37And now 20 years later, of course, you know, we, we, you know, we've had to navigate it all.
04:43So now I feel like I went to college, the school of hard knocks in the music industry.
04:48You know what I mean?
04:48So I know how to do all the things now.
04:50Walk me back to that time.
04:51This is like early two thousands, right?
04:52When you're, when you're doing this.
04:54So was Christian hip hop a thing at all?
04:58Not really.
04:59So that's the, that's the funny thing.
05:00It was very underground.
05:01So super, super niche.
05:03I mean, it still is, but it's more accessible now.
05:06It was, it was underground.
05:07There were no major label signings.
05:09There were no artists that had massive platforms.
05:13Um, you know, the biggest, the two biggest groups were one group that was doing some work
05:19with Kirk Franklin called gospel gangsters and another group called cross movement that
05:24was out of Philly.
05:24And they were kind of the biggest.
05:27And I mean, you know, to, to sell a hundred thousand units over the course of a year and
05:37a half would have been like a big deal for them at the time.
05:40So, so it wasn't a thing.
05:42And all the tours were kind of mom and pop, you know, instead of the club scene, we had
05:48churches like little mom and pop churches that you would tour.
05:50And so there was not a lot of, of, of action.
05:54So for us, we noticed that the West coast and the East coast were the more prominent
06:00voices within the Christian rap space because the industry existed there, but the South
06:05in mainstream was on the rise.
06:07So you had TI at this point in time, you had Lil Wayne, you had all these artists, cash
06:12money rising up.
06:13And we said, well, there's not a voice in the Christian space from the South.
06:17And so that is kind of where we took, took shape, took form.
06:21And, uh, and it was gangbusters.
06:24There's a lot to that, but that's the, yeah.
06:26Like TLDR fast forward.
06:28It's going gangbusters.
06:29But I imagine you started to get noticed after that.
06:32I'm sure all the labels that said before, oh, it's too Christian for us or, oh, it's
06:35too hip hop for us.
06:36Start calling.
06:37So this is funny.
06:38This is a funny story.
06:39So we used to sell CDs on consignment to like stores.
06:43This is back when you bought music at a store, right?
06:46Yeah.
06:47This is the ancient days.
06:48Um, but so there was a store that, um, I wanted to sell my music and I said, Hey, will
06:55you buy, you know, I don't know, 10 of my CDs, my first CD.
07:00Of course they said, they said, well, we'll buy, we'll buy two and see if anybody wants
07:07them.
07:07And if they want them, then we'll, we'll order some more.
07:10Now what they didn't know was I was part of this, you know, college Bible study and we
07:17were probably about, I say we about 50 deep, but then it was connected to a church that
07:25had other college Bible studies and collectively there were about 200 of us.
07:30So I'm doing shows for them.
07:33Um, I'm doing events for them.
07:35So they're all fans.
07:36They're like, when are you going to put out a CD?
07:38When are you going to put out a CD?
07:39So I said, well, it just so happens that it's going to be at this store.
07:44Two CDs were in the store.
07:45I sent two people in there.
07:46They bought them.
07:46They said, man, we need 10.
07:47I put 10 in there, sent 10 people over there.
07:50They bought those 10.
07:51They said, we need 25.
07:52Don't worry.
07:53I got over 200 people.
07:54So they ended up getting on the phone and saying, man, this guy is selling.
07:58And they kind of became a promotional wheel for us to put it in different music stores
08:02around the city.
08:04And, um, as I would travel, I would tell people, go to this store, go to this store.
08:08So it started to, to bolster that way.
08:13Then I did this camp in Missouri and kids came from all over the nation.
08:17It's like a sports camp.
08:18I created a kids across America.
08:21Okay.
08:21So it's a sports camp in Missouri.
08:23So then they go home with my, with my CD and they're telling their people, their pastor,
08:29their friends, their community centers.
08:32So now it's bubbling.
08:34The labels hadn't called yet because they don't know, like we're not showing up on sound
08:39scan just yet.
08:40We're still hand to hand.
08:43What ended up happening is when iTunes started having their charts.
08:47Um, we put our music on there and all the kids at the time would like, this is where
08:54we can find this music.
08:55So I'll never forget the day my song was on iTunes and it beat out Nicki Minaj and all
09:02Nicki's fans were mad and they were sending me mean tweets.
09:05They're so mad to this day about everything.
09:08That's another story.
09:09That's another topic.
09:09So, so all that to say, that's when people started taking notice.
09:12It's like, what the heck is going on?
09:13What is happening here?
09:14Yeah.
09:15Wow.
09:15Okay.
09:15That's fascinating that you mentioned this summer camp because that's kind of how I
09:19first found you.
09:20When I was a kid, my sister went to a Christian summer camp in Texas.
09:24Okay.
09:25And they would only-
09:26It was probably Pine Cove or something like that.
09:27It was literally Pine Cove.
09:28Shout out, Lee.
09:30I performed there too.
09:32Oh my God.
09:33Wait, that's crazy.
09:34I'm going to have to tell her all of this, but she'll also probably watch this.
09:36But yeah, so she would go to that camp, come home, and she'd have all these new songs for
09:41her iPod that we shared at the time.
09:44And yeah, so that's how I got put onto you.
09:46And I mean, two decades later, still going strong.
09:49It's crazy.
09:49I mean, man, most people don't have that kind of longevity.
09:52I really want to also get into the way that the Christian music industry has evolved around
09:58you over the last two decades.
10:00So from the early beginnings to now, can you name like a few inflection points where you
10:05feel like the industry and Christian music started to modernize and move towards where
10:09we're sitting now?
10:11Yeah.
10:11Yeah.
10:11I think Christian music is similar to country music, right?
10:15In that people are very redundant.
10:19They like what they like, and they want it the way that they've always had it.
10:24And so-
10:24There's a lot of loyalty then.
10:25A lot of loyalty.
10:26Yeah.
10:26Yes.
10:27So for a long time, it was difficult to get people to transition to digital, right?
10:34It was like, no, we want CDs.
10:36We don't want digital.
10:37We want CDs.
10:38Well, I had a younger fan base.
10:40I was on YouTube all the time.
10:43I was creating content for YouTube because that's where my fans were.
10:47I was young.
10:47I'm like, hey, this is where we are.
10:50So they were already inclined to stream.
10:53And that was a turn for the Christian music industry.
10:56I'll never forget, you know, and, you know, Billboard, listen, I used to be on the gospel
11:05charts on Billboard.
11:07All the gospel artists rallied to get me off the gospel charts.
11:10And so I'm no longer on the gospel charts because we kept being number one.
11:15Yeah.
11:15Like all the time, all the time.
11:17And it was because people were buying the digital downloads and not, you know, the traditional
11:24Christian artists, their fans were waiting until the CD came out at the store.
11:27Ours were just immediately, immediately, immediately.
11:29So that was a transition where people started to say, OK, something has changed.
11:33You also touched on, you know, the summer camp aspect.
11:35I'm wondering.
11:36So basically with Christian music fan acquisition, it's almost like it's like you have to hit
11:42all these little pockets of communities and then they'll adopt you.
11:44Yeah.
11:45And then the next one will.
11:46I feel like that is also pretty distinct from what you see with pop music.
11:50Oh, yeah.
11:51In the Christian music space, you know, you kind of start with the youth groups and then
11:57the camps and then there's these massive tours, right?
12:01There's these there's radio tours.
12:03The radio stations put together because it's only interesting.
12:05There's only like two Christian radio stations and they are syndicated, you know, usually around
12:10the country.
12:12And so if they put a tour together, you know, there's all that financial backing.
12:17And so now you're on this massive tour.
12:21Like I did a tour.
12:21It's called Winter Jam.
12:22It's a massive, the biggest Christian tour there is.
12:25And we're doing stadiums.
12:26We're doing, you know, we're following Drake.
12:28Wherever Drake goes, we're hitting the same venues where Beyonce goes, we're hitting the
12:31same venues.
12:32And there's, you know, I saw a half a million people on tour.
12:36Yeah.
12:36You know what I mean?
12:37And so it's just a different entity.
12:40It's, it's, I will say there's way more loyalty.
12:44There's a general message that's connecting with listeners.
12:49It's a message that everyone is rallying around.
12:51So they're supporting it.
12:52I don't want to like make it sound like nasty, like, oh, we're just prostituting our faith
12:57for dollars.
12:58But what I will say is that, you know, everything is a, every business is a, is a people business.
13:05So you're, you're always trying to figure out how to serve people and give them what they
13:10want in exchange for them paying you for your service.
13:13And so we just want to do good business with people.
13:15I mean, it's a, it's an industry, it's a business.
13:17And that's what the Christian music industry is.
13:19Yeah.
13:19Well, I, I think it's really interesting.
13:21I mean, the only instance that I've heard of kind of a Christian music business deal gone
13:26wrong, it's like the Maverick City music stuff that's been happening.
13:29Basically, there's a couple different lawsuits going on around Maverick City music, which
13:32is such a huge group right now.
13:34Um, so I'm wondering, like, do you see instances of that pretty often where there is kind of
13:40a music or like a record label dispute, um, or a disagreement because this is faith and
13:47business mixing together?
13:48You know, what I see honestly is I see it's, it's usually tough when the executives don't
13:58understand the culture or the faith.
14:00So it's kind of like saying like, yeah, you got a guy who's done pop music forever and
14:09now he's in charge of the Afro beat like section.
14:12And it's like, there's some, there's some confusion on how this culture moves, what the
14:17ideals and the values are.
14:19And, you know, you can end up unintentionally being disrespectful because you're, you're
14:25just trying to do what you think, you know, best to do.
14:28And I think that happens a lot of times is where you have executives who are like, well,
14:32they don't understand the nuances of this genre, but they understand the music industry
14:36and it's a, it's, it's a both ends.
14:38And so that tends to create some tension a lot within the, within the space for sure.
14:43Yeah.
14:43Well, I mean, Christian music in general is experiencing a huge boom right now.
14:47It's become really, really popular.
14:49And I do imagine that there's probably a lot of record executives out there who are like,
14:54Oh, maybe there's some money to be made here.
14:57So like, is there increasing competition for you as a record label owner who's trying to
15:01sign, you know, uh, talent in this space?
15:04Is there a lot of competition for mainstream labels now?
15:06Yes and no.
15:07So yes, the mainstream labels have indeed gone after a lot of the Christian artists and thrown
15:16bigger checks than some of us independent labels could throw at these artists.
15:21The difference is, um, they're, they don't understand the culture, the niche, the, the type
15:29of artists that they should get behind because a lot of times within, let's just say hip hop
15:35in general, um, if the song is viral and people like it, it'll work.
15:39You know what I mean?
15:40It'll work.
15:41Um, but there are certain genres, you know, that are a little more nuanced that are a little
15:47more, there's some cultural things.
15:50And because Christian music is subject matter oriented, it's like, well, what's the subject
15:54matter of this song and who is this artist?
15:57And especially within the Christian hip hop space, we're very communal.
16:01So it's, it's almost like you, I don't want to say you got to pay your dues, but there is
16:06a sense of like, who knows you, you know what I mean?
16:09No, that's fair.
16:10I think that that's the same kind of thing I've been hearing from country music executives
16:13as the mainstream coastal labels have moved into Nashville.
16:17Cause it just, you know, country's also exploding right now.
16:20Um, and they're kind of like, I mean, you know, they want to kind of safeguard their writing
16:25rooms and, you know, their teams and stuff like that.
16:27But I mean, I do imagine though, there's probably some Christian labels that are maybe I'm not
16:33saying yours, but like, there are probably some that are maybe not keeping up with the speed
16:37at which this genre is modernizing and moving into streaming and hitting the younger audiences.
16:43I have seen from Spotify's really some numbers that the genre's audience has gotten a lot
16:47younger.
16:48Yes.
16:48Um, so, uh, do some of the mainstream labels have some catching up to do in terms of what's
16:53happening in, in music right now?
16:56I think so.
16:56I think, I mean, every, first of all, let's be clear.
16:59The music industry in and of itself is the rate of change is like a thousand times more
17:06than it's ever been.
17:07Yeah.
17:07So no one has fully grasped where we are and where we're going.
17:14I think everyone is holding on by the seat of their pants.
17:17Our exec team group text is actually called pivot gang because you've got to be ready to
17:22pivot at any moment.
17:24And that's one of the benefits we have of being an independent label is that we can move
17:29very like rapidly.
17:31We can change things.
17:32Whereas bigger labels, they, there's a lot more red tape, a lot more bureaucracy, a lot
17:38more things that they have to go through.
17:39Now I will say this for some of the smaller, um, Christian labels, not smaller, some of the
17:44Christian labels that are attached to mainstream labels, they do have a little more, um, they
17:51have a tougher time adjusting, being at ground level, understanding what's going on.
17:56Um, it helps for me to not only be a label owner, but an artist.
17:59So I'm at the festivals, I'm at the places, I'm talking to the younger artists, I'm looking
18:05at who's rising up and who, who people love.
18:08So I get to be at ground zero a lot more than a lot of the, uh, other labels do.
18:13Yeah.
18:13And going back to what you're saying about doing that, that radio tour, that was such
18:17a big deal.
18:18Radio has been seen as such a gatekeeper in the music industry for so long, but now as
18:22people have moved more and more onto streaming, including Christian music fans, um, I imagine
18:27that some of the Christian radio stations have lost some of that, um, you know, institutional
18:31power, the gatekeeper power that they once had.
18:34How do you think that that is going to affect Christian music as a genre?
18:38Yeah, I think Christian music infrastructures all again, it's so similar to country.
18:45Like it, it, it kind of transitions a little slower than, than a lot of mainstream.
18:55So you have a little more, a little more time to, to adjust.
19:00So radio will probably live a little longer in the Christian space than it will live in
19:05mainstream spaces, right?
19:0640 year old soccer mom who's got kids in the back and she wants some clean music for her
19:11kids to listen to.
19:12She's a millennial mom, but she may not be a playlist mom just yet, right?
19:16Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:17Now, 34 year old mom may have grown up making playlists on her apps and is more streaming and
19:27that's more her, her niche.
19:30Um, you know, 40 plus moms probably, you know, using maybe, maybe using a playlist, but she still
19:38might listen to the radio to find her music.
19:41So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a both end, I think, but as the audience gets younger, then
19:46I
19:46think, um, that, that definitely becomes more of a reality.
19:50Yeah.
19:50Well, why do you think the audience is getting so much younger?
19:53I know you've always had a young audience, but most of Christian music has not had that.
19:58So why do you think the audiences and Christian music are getting younger?
20:00I think the parents of Gen Z were inundated with religion, right?
20:09They were like, it was forced on them, right?
20:13Forced on millennials in a lot of ways where it was like, ah, uh, I don't know how I feel
20:17about this.
20:17And so we're more exploratory.
20:19We're like, I'm not forcing this on my kids.
20:21I'm not doing that.
20:22And so there's a generation of Gen Zs who are like, well, I didn't grow up in a religious
20:26household and I'm interested.
20:28Like, what, what is this thing you're keeping from me, mom, that grandma's showed you?
20:33And like, what are you afraid?
20:34Oh, I just don't want you to not be able to wear pants and, you know, and, and so Gen
20:41Z is, is like, well, well, we want to know about God and we want to explore our faith and
20:46we're interested in spirituality.
20:47And so that age group is the most transformative and rebellious age group.
20:54You know, revolutionaries are generally like college students.
20:57And so they're like, no, we're going to charge the gates.
21:00What, what we want to listen to this and this is what we're going to do.
21:03And so they're, they're just mobilizing and they're so open to spirituality.
21:07They're not as off-put as older generations were.
21:10That's super interesting.
21:12Yeah.
21:12And I mean, obviously politics has become a big thing in a lot of churches.
21:17A lot of preachers are starting to talk more and more about politics in the church.
21:21I'm wondering, have you seen politics infiltrate the Christian music industry?
21:26Oh yeah, for sure.
21:27I mean, I think what was, what has happened is politics have created a dividing line in
21:32a lot of ways for, for Christians in general.
21:35And so it's, it's made it really polarizing.
21:38Like, are you this side or that side?
21:40Which I think is unfortunate.
21:41Um, but because politics has made everything so polarizing, um, people are looking for soundtracks
21:51to their views.
21:52And so they're saying, well, this aligns with where I stand politically.
21:57Obviously Christians by and large have, I'm not saying Christians are conservative politically,
22:04but Christians have conservative views in general, by and large, I'm generalizing broad brush, right?
22:10Christians have some conservative views.
22:11So people would assume that Christians are going to be conservatives or politically conservative.
22:19And so politicians will say, Hey, we want this artist or this song or this person to be at
22:27our event or our festival or our thing and back us this way and do this.
22:31And that does help or hinder in some, in some capacities, because in people's mind, you've
22:37drawn a line.
22:38I think in the same way people think country music is politically conservative.
22:41That's just, it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not necessarily true, but that's the perception.
22:45Yeah.
22:46So do you think the country and Christian have risen up at this moment because there's
22:50also a rise in conservatism?
22:52I don't know.
22:53That's an interesting question.
22:54That's something I'm, I'm not really sure about within the church space.
22:59It's still very cultural and coastal.
23:02So, so by and large, I don't think you're going to see a lot of, uh, black Christians who
23:10are going to vote politically conservative.
23:12Totally.
23:12Um, by and large, I don't think you'll see a lot of coastal Christians vote politically
23:17conservative, right?
23:18Like California, New York.
23:19Totally.
23:20In the middle for sure.
23:21Yeah.
23:22So potentially, I mean, it could have an effect.
23:25Yeah.
23:26So yeah.
23:26Is there a big racial dividing line within Christian music?
23:30Not intentionally.
23:31Okay.
23:32Not intentionally.
23:33I think it's, it's the, the result of.
23:36Of, you know, American racism and, and culture.
23:41So I think because let's just use black and whites for now, right?
23:47Because black people were told you're not allowed to worship with us in this, you know,
23:54uh, historically in America, black people said, well, we got to have our own churches,
23:58which created their own sound, which created their own styles, which says, well, this is
24:04how we worship God culturally.
24:07And then you've got white Christians who are saying, well, this is how we've been worshiping
24:10God culturally.
24:11And the sounds are so different that it was like, well, these are actually two genres.
24:15Let's make them two genres.
24:16They're both Christian by subject matter, but within this genre, let's have some sub genres.
24:22It's weird because the charts reflect it, but oftentimes there's two different worlds
24:28that exist.
24:29And that's why I've tried to be a bridge as best as I could because I see the division.
24:34Yeah.
24:34Yeah.
24:35Well, you've also been outspoken in recent years about, um, kind of your own struggles
24:38with the church and deciding like how you feel about that.
24:41And is that also a, uh, a crisis of personal faith or is it just about like the church as
24:45an institution?
24:47Both.
24:47Okay.
24:48Yeah.
24:48Both.
24:49So go ahead.
24:50Well, I was going to ask because your livelihood, your art is all tied up in, uh, your faith.
24:57That's right.
24:58I mean, I imagine that added to the strain that you experienced.
25:02I just want to hear more about your journey with that.
25:05For me as a black man in America, um, what I wrestled through in 2014 through 2016 and
25:13just seeing unarmed black people being killed.
25:16To me, I saw that as a, um, I saw that as a moral issue, right?
25:24It's not a political issue to me.
25:25That was moral.
25:26It's like, Hey, stop this.
25:28Um, so I was outspoken about it.
25:29I did not realize that a lot of Christians saw it as a political issue and they thought
25:35I had chosen to be political.
25:38And so I just showed how different we were and how worlds apart we were in our experiences
25:45because of that.
25:46They, they, I was chastised and said, Hey, if you're going to keep being political, we're
25:50not going to support you anymore.
25:52And, uh, and just get back to the gospel, stop talking about political issues.
25:57And I was like, well, to me, the gospel is a message that cares about people holistically.
26:02Well, it created an exodus of fans for me in that season of time.
26:06So did you see that actually reflect in numbers?
26:08Absolutely.
26:09Oh my gosh.
26:09That must've been terrifying.
26:11Yeah.
26:12I mean, at the end of the day, you know, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall
26:15for anything.
26:15And I had to recognize and realize, well, what's more important to me, um, being authentic
26:21and really standing on what I believe in or, you know, um, placating people and, and
26:28making songs that will, they'll keep buying, even though I feel like I'm being a fraud.
26:35Right.
26:35So, so I remember a show I had a Philly one year and it was, you know, about 3000 people
26:42showed up right after speaking out against some of the violence that I had seen, there
26:48were 400 people that showed up at the next event.
26:51And so, wow.
26:53So, you know, you do the math.
26:55Wow.
26:55So that's how impactful it was, man.
26:57And you didn't even know what you were really stepping into.
27:00Not a clue.
27:00You didn't think you were like taking a stand that was going to be controversial.
27:03I, I, I didn't initially.
27:05Yeah.
27:05After a while, I realized it was, and people warned me like, Hey, you might want to stop
27:09because this is going to affect your money.
27:11And I was like, I'm not doing it for that thing.
27:14Then I'll have to go work a job or I have to do something else because I just, I can't,
27:19I just can't be quiet about what I feel like I'm, I'm supposed to speak about.
27:24Yeah.
27:24Do you think that Christian artists need to speak up about political issues?
27:29I think social issues.
27:31Social issues.
27:31Absolutely.
27:32Absolutely.
27:33Again, I'm not anti-politics.
27:35I just think that your politics should conform to your, your, your social and moral convictions,
27:40not the other way around.
27:42Let me not bend my moral convictions to my politics.
27:45Yeah.
27:46Um, but yeah, I do because if we, you know, in the Bible, Christians believe that the greatest
27:53commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your
27:57neighbor as yourself.
27:58And how can you love people as yourself?
28:02If you're afraid to speak up on behalf of them, right?
28:06You're not really loving them.
28:07If you're not willing to take a stand, if you're not willing to stand by people or protest,
28:11or, you know, you, I'm not saying, you know, you can pray, you can protest, you can do policy,
28:16you can do publicity, whatever.
28:18But you do need to be involved socially in some capacity.
28:22Yeah.
28:23Yeah.
28:23Well, okay.
28:24So tell me more about the evolution of reach.
28:26Yeah.
28:27So where did it start?
28:28It started as like kind of a necessity, it sounds like for you to get your music out
28:32there, but now you're signing the next generation that you've inspired.
28:36So tell me more about that journey.
28:38I saw that, um, we had a movement and, um, you know, I, I, I fell to the background a
28:46little
28:46bit when I saw that some of my social views, the, the, everyone at my label is not me.
28:53So we don't all see eye to eye on everything and I don't want to hinder the label.
28:56So I stepped back and said, okay, let's focus on me being an executive in the building and
29:02not on the forefront.
29:03And let's just put our head down and work on finding new artists, signing new artists,
29:08developing new artists.
29:09And we developed a new generation of artists, um, that have just done tremendously well.
29:14You know, you've got my guy, Hovey, who's torn the charts up, you know what I'm saying?
29:19And then Hovey, um, is where we developed a relationship with Forrest Frank and Forrest
29:25again, him and Hovey have a song that's, that went gold and it's, it's been killing.
29:30Um, and then we just, you know, that was what I would call our season two, season three,
29:35you know, of investing.
29:37And now we're in season four.
29:38And so we've got some new signings.
29:40One, I can't announce, but it'll be announced very soon.
29:42Uh, it's a big one.
29:44Okay.
29:44And this is a season where again, man, it's, it's Gen Z.
29:48It's kind of like, you know, we're just looking at where the future is and who the future is
29:52and those voices.
29:53And, uh, and that's what we've been doing.
29:56And so for me, I've always been very selfless in not trying to put myself as an artist on
30:00the forefront.
30:01I'll use myself as a banner.
30:03I mean, I'll take my royalties.
30:05I took my initial royalties and reinvested them into the other artists, you know, to
30:09build the label up.
30:10Um, so I'll use me as a banner, whatever's necessary in order to keep the movement going.
30:16Um, and so now that's where we've been.
30:18We're the number one independent label in the city of Atlanta.
30:22Whoa.
30:22Right.
30:23And you've got, you've, because we're fully independent.
30:26Okay.
30:26Yeah.
30:26Who do you distribute through?
30:28Uh, Merlin.
30:29Oh, okay.
30:29Yeah.
30:30So you are fully independent, fully independent.
30:32So, yeah, so we have, you know, sold millions of, of albums and, um, and we got 11 artists
30:39and, you know, a staff of, you know, 20 and, um, and, and man, it's been great.
30:46Wow.
30:46Yeah.
30:47I mean, it's not easy.
30:48Atlanta is a city where there's a lot happening.
30:51So that says a lot.
30:52That's right.
30:53Well, okay.
30:53So the catalog market has been red hot in the last few years.
30:56I don't really know what that market is like for Christian catalogs, but, um,
31:00do you still own your catalog?
31:01I do.
31:02I do.
31:02Have you ever considered selling?
31:03Yeah.
31:04I mean, you, you, you always, you look at that and you say, man, is this a, is this,
31:09is this what I need to do?
31:11What's the benefit?
31:12What's the cost benefit analysis?
31:14Are we going to reinvest in this label?
31:16Um, is this, is this the best thing for us?
31:19The beautiful thing for us is that man, just as myself being independent, owning all my
31:23publishing, um, trying to do right by everyone else, letting them have their, uh, independence.
31:30And for us, it's never been an issue of like, we're struggling or we're strapped and we gotta,
31:36we gotta let this go in order to survive.
31:38It's been more of what's wisest.
31:40Yeah.
31:41You know what I mean?
31:41What's the wisest decision?
31:42Yeah.
31:43And, um, and so, yeah, I mean, that's all, it's never off the table, you know, it's
31:47never off the table.
31:48It's just about, is it, does this make sense for us right now?
31:51Yeah.
31:52It's always interesting to me when, uh, so I make like some short form videos about
31:56the music business to try to open things up to a wider audience of people beyond just
32:00the billboard audience.
32:01Um, cause a lot of my stories are paywalled and so it's mostly people in the music business
32:05that are seeing those.
32:06And so I wanted to kind of expand it out, but oftentimes when I talk about catalogs because
32:11I think maybe the Taylor Swift of it all, she had a really bad situation and something
32:14that she was not happy with general fans don't seem to, um, really understand that
32:21oftentimes when artists are selling their catalog, they're very excited about it.
32:24And that it's like a really great thing for them.
32:26And it's like a strategic decision rather than something that's happening out from under
32:30you.
32:30That's right.
32:31Of course the, the bad version of it can happen, but it's been eyeopening to see how
32:35fans view things versus how the, the core audience of.
32:38Oh yeah.
32:39I mean, I, a lot of people haven't read, it's a big book.
32:43It's hard to get an audio version of David Geffen's book, uh, The Operator.
32:46Oh, I've been, it's been on my list for a long time.
32:49Should I do it?
32:49Okay.
32:50Phenomenal.
32:50Okay.
32:50But the brilliance of David Geffen is that he created things and he held them with an open
32:56hand.
32:57He sold them and then he created another thing and then he sold that and then he created
33:02another thing.
33:03And I think if you have a vision for that, I think that's brilliant.
33:07It's, it's, it's, that's, that's business.
33:10You can create more opportunities.
33:11You can do more things.
33:12And so if, if, if I have a hundred million dollar catalog in my hands and I have a vision
33:18to build, I don't know, something else, another media company or something along those lines.
33:24And now I've, I've got this a hundred million dollars and I can say, okay, what's how I
33:30can invest in this next vision.
33:31And then that becomes a $200 million, uh, liquidity event.
33:36And then I sell that and then that, that move on to the billion dollar.
33:40Yeah.
33:40And so it's, it's all about, do you have a vision for what's next?
33:43And, you know, um, I love being in the music industry.
33:46Um, there's some other things that I'm interested in as I, as I start getting into media spaces
33:50and looking at it.
33:51Cause you have a podcast.
33:52That's right.
33:53So, that's right.
33:54So, you know, as I, as I, as I move around, I'm like, okay, well maybe this, this may
33:58be an investment here.
33:59There may be some, something to do.
34:00Yeah.
34:00What's piquing your interest right now?
34:02Oh, definitely.
34:03Um, media.
34:04Like, I think the podcast has opened up my mind to just like, okay.
34:09And there's so many things happening with social media as well.
34:12So like it, they all kind of merge together.
34:14When you start talking about podcasts, long form, short form, this whole media space, um,
34:22especially within the genre of Christian, it's like, there's still, there's still a gap.
34:28Totally.
34:29Right.
34:29And so the same way I saw a gap with Christian hip hop, I see, I see a gap still.
34:33And I'm like, that's a gap.
34:35I think we may be able to fill.
34:37Yeah.
34:37I mean, would you go all the way into like a film TV, like full production kind of thing?
34:42Are you kind of more interested in the docs, podcasts, that kind of vibe?
34:45I think we, we tiptoe in and we, we start with, you know, some, some docs, some podcast
34:50stuff and develop some shows.
34:53And then if you can, if you can make it work on, um, on YouTube and maybe some paywall
34:59stuff, then you can branch out and get a little more, you know, dive in a little deeper.
35:05Yeah.
35:05Yeah.
35:06Well, okay.
35:06So to take it back to your music, you've collaborated with a lot of artists that are not
35:10Christian, Christian, or yeah, or they don't traditionally release in that.
35:14Maybe that's their faith, but they never really write about it.
35:17Yeah.
35:17Um, I was just listening to your song with John Bellion, uh, which I absolutely loved,
35:21but I I'm wondering how these collaborations came about.
35:25Like when you're reaching out to these artists, are they typically very responsive to the idea
35:30of writing about their faith, um, for the first time?
35:33So tell me about that.
35:34That's a good question.
35:35I think, so there's, there's, there's, there's probably three types of collaborators, right?
35:40As it pertains to that, you've got collaborator one who's like, I've been itching to talk
35:47about this side of who I am for so long and you're the right voice, right platform, right
35:53person for me to do that with, right?
35:56That's your John Bellion.
35:58That's your Tori Kelly, right?
35:59There's just, oh my gosh, I was waiting for this moment.
36:02Right.
36:02Then you've got, um, another group of people who are like, man, I just so respect the space
36:14and the world you exist in.
36:16And I respect you as an artist and how you have taken the craft seriously.
36:21And I just want to work with you.
36:23Right.
36:24I don't necessarily know where I stand faith wise.
36:28Maybe I agree, but I'm not quite sure.
36:31But I, on a lot of these principles, we're on the same page.
36:35Let's work together.
36:36I think of, um, I don't know, Rhapsody or Big Crit, you know, and we're there.
36:42And then you've got the other artists who's like, I just like making dope music.
36:49And I, this song is a smash and let's work together.
36:52I love you.
36:53You're dope.
36:54This is dope.
36:54I don't really, I'm not going to put my faith out there necessarily, my lack of or religious,
37:02religiosity.
37:02I just think you're dope.
37:04This song is dope.
37:05We should be, make something together.
37:06And there's a mutual respect.
37:08Like I would never say anything on your record that's going to be in conflict.
37:11And so, and to me, that's Ty Dolla $ign.
37:14That's John Legend.
37:15You know, it's like that, those are great collabs as well.
37:19Yeah.
37:19That's fascinating.
37:20And I imagine that also has really opened up like faith-based music to secular audiences
37:25that never really thought that they would give it a try.
37:28Right.
37:28And then they catch themselves and they're like, oh, I kind of like that song.
37:31I love that.
37:31That's my favorite thing.
37:33Because at the end of the day, you know, there are some faith-based artists whose message
37:40is very explicit every time.
37:42Right.
37:43And it may be something you, you don't agree with.
37:46It's so explicit.
37:47You're like, I don't know if I agree with that.
37:49But there's a lot of faith-based artists who make songs that are an expression of their
37:54faith.
37:55It's just, it's, it's something that is, is an, it's not, it's implicit.
38:04Right.
38:04Yeah.
38:04So if I made a song about how, man, let's stop killing each other.
38:08Well, that's an implicit faith value for me, but it may be for someone else who doesn't
38:13share my faith.
38:14They're like, I agree with that.
38:15Actually, let's stop killing each other.
38:18And you may listen to that and be like, I agree with this too.
38:21Let's stop killing each other.
38:22This is Christian.
38:23It is.
38:24Yeah.
38:25But you know, I love the song.
38:28Yeah.
38:28I even think of like, I don't even know if they intended this to be Christian, but previous
38:34to my time at Billboard, I worked at 10K Projects on Surfaces, which was Forrest
38:38Frank's original project, the duo, that song Sunday Best.
38:42That's right.
38:42And if you listen through it, knowing him now as a Christian artist, it's like, of
38:47course, obvious what he's talking about, obvious that it's like inflected with his
38:52faith in there, but it's not explicit.
38:54That's right.
38:55It's just positive, uplifting stuff.
38:58And he's moved more and more into that.
39:00And it's been really exciting to see him do that.
39:02And he's totally dominated and done a great job with it.
39:05So it's interesting, the idea of kind of the explicit versus the implicit faith-based
39:11music.
39:11Yeah.
39:12But I'm also wondering how you've navigated your relationship with fans and how Christian
39:18artists in general navigate their relationship with fans, because obviously idolization is
39:22something that Christianity would frown upon.
39:26For sure.
39:26And so, but fans always will have that urge to idolize their favorite artists.
39:32Especially teenage girls.
39:33Yeah.
39:34So how do you, how do you navigate that?
39:35As a former teenage girl, I can relate.
39:39You know what you, you, I mean, honestly, for me, it's been an intentional pursuit of
39:46humility, right?
39:47So it's intentional on my part to be like, Hey, I don't do this for my own glorification,
39:52my own self promotion, right?
39:55I want to make music to serve other people.
39:57And I, and I have to remember that, like, I'm, I'm offering a service to these people.
40:02You are just as important as I am.
40:05Like we're equally important.
40:06And I often will say that from the stage, like I'm standing up here taller than you,
40:10but it's not because I'm better than you.
40:11It's because you've allowed me to serve you with my voice.
40:14And, and I'm here for you just as much as you're here for me.
40:17So I'm constantly trying to encourage them in that regard.
40:20Um, obviously, you know, it, we're all human beings, so everyone's going to struggle.
40:25Everyone's going to struggle with pride.
40:26Everyone's going to, I mean, the, the most well-intentioned Christian person is still
40:31going to have human struggles.
40:32So that's still going to be an issue.
40:35Um, I just think if you don't pay attention to it, then it becomes catastrophic, you know,
40:42with the fans and the, and the industry and the whole nine.
40:44Yeah.
40:45I mean, even outside of Christian faith, pride kills people over and over again, right?
40:49You start looking at artists and be like, yo, you are just a jerk.
40:53I don't, I don't like you.
40:54You know what I mean?
40:55Faith aside, you're just a jerk.
40:57Yeah.
40:58Yeah.
40:58Yeah.
40:59You're an arrogant jerk.
41:00I don't like you.
41:01Yeah.
41:02Well, okay.
41:03So one of the things I report on at billboard is AI and AI has certainly become part of,
41:11uh, some of our smaller charts at billboard.
41:15We've seen on our gospel charts in particular, there've been a couple different AI generated
41:19projects that have climbed those charts.
41:21Zania Monáe is one.
41:23Another is Solomon Ray.
41:25Um, I'm wondering why you think gospel is one of those genres.
41:31Genres that is seeing, uh, you know, yeah, AI rise.
41:36Um, that's an interesting question for a long time.
41:41Um, there is been a high emphasis on message in Christian music, which sometimes puts a low
41:52emphasis on craftsmanship.
41:53Interesting.
41:55And so, because the message is paramount, the craftsmanship sometimes, um, takes a backseat.
42:02And, um, and I think in some ways, um, people are a, not as concerned with the craftsmanship.
42:14And so something that's AI can either be much better than previous craftsmanship or much
42:23worse, but not much worse, but on par.
42:27And it's like, it works.
42:29Yeah.
42:30It works.
42:30Yeah.
42:30It's like, I just want to listen to something that has God as part of it.
42:34Exactly.
42:34Yeah.
42:35And so I could see that being a reason, maybe not the reason, but I can see that being a
42:40reason.
42:40I can see that too.
42:41I also have my own theories about this.
42:44I think that we, we've kind of touched on this a little bit.
42:46There are some sects of Christian music that appeal to older audiences.
42:52I'm kind of wondering if some of these people just don't even know.
42:55Don't even know.
42:55Yeah, for sure.
42:56They're just like, okay, a song came to me and it's about God.
42:59And it sounds pretty much like the other stuff that I listened to.
43:01That's about God.
43:02And I'm okay with that.
43:03Um, but yeah.
43:04And I mean, also, I think it like should be said that these charts also have a lower threshold.
43:09Like you're again, like you were saying before, you were always at the top of the gospel charts
43:13and, um, there it's, it's a genre that is not listened to quite as widely as hip hop
43:18or, you know, R and B or whatever.
43:21So, um, you know, the threshold to making it to the top of a digital song sales chart in
43:27gospel, for example, or I don't even know if that's real chart.
43:30I'm going to check myself on that, but you know, it's like some of those niche charts,
43:33it's, it's right.
43:34The bar isn't super high, but that does mean that people are buying it or listening to
43:38it somehow.
43:39I'm not anti AI.
43:41I am anti AI being our creative engine.
43:48You know what I mean?
43:49Like we are human beings.
43:51We are creators.
43:52We are, we are a reflection of the creator we should be creating.
43:56And if we're just prompting, Hey, make a song about this.
44:00Well, you're not creating anything.
44:02You're just using, you're generating and it's replicating.
44:07There's no, someone created something that it replicated, but you're just generating.
44:13It's replicating.
44:14There's no creating happening.
44:16Yeah.
44:16So, yeah.
44:17Okay.
44:17Well, that's a great way to end off.
44:19We have a few like little game things that we always end off with.
44:22If, if you're game for a game.
44:23Let's do it.
44:24Um, okay, so I literally just made this.
44:26It's DIY, y'all.
44:27Hilarious.
44:27Okay.
44:27That's good.
44:28Actually, it looks good.
44:29So we're trying this for the first time today.
44:32I'm a guinea pig.
44:32Okay.
44:32You're the guinea pig.
44:33So just spin the wheel and whatever it lands on.
44:36That's what I got to answer.
44:37You got to answer.
44:38All right.
44:38So it's called spin the record.
44:40Spin the record.
44:41I like it.
44:41There we go.
44:42This is pretty good.
44:42You did a good job.
44:44You did a good job.
44:45Okay.
44:45Where are we at?
44:46Uh, pre-show ritual.
44:48What's your pre-show ritual?
44:49Pre-show ritual.
44:50It's changed over the years.
44:51Um, it used to be like something like a energy drink or energy powder, amp myself up because
45:01my show is always like high energy.
45:03Um, now is man, I got to warm up my knees.
45:07My knees are older.
45:08You know, I got to do knee warm ups, some jumps, some, some, some, you know, get the knees warmed
45:13up.
45:14Knees warmed up prayer.
45:16And, uh, you know, I, I eat too before shows.
45:20A lot of people don't like eating food.
45:22I, I can eat before my show.
45:24Do you have a special thing?
45:26Like, is there anything in your rider that's always waiting for you in the dressing room?
45:29I try to keep it pretty clean.
45:31Um, Coke zero is always in my rider.
45:33I'm a fanatic.
45:34I'm a fiend, but like trail mix, um, some jalapeno, kettle chips, protein bars, protein shakes.
45:41Um, but I can eat a whole and see the, the thing is I like, I'm, I'm a calorie counter.
45:46Oh.
45:46So, so if I, I would rather eat something I shouldn't eat before the show, cause it's
45:52going to be a lot of movement on stage.
45:54Okay.
45:55Fair enough.
45:55Yeah.
45:55Fair enough.
45:56Okay.
45:56We'll have you spend it one more time and then we'll, we'll move on.
45:59Let's go.
45:59There is one about writers.
46:01So we'll have to change that.
46:02If you can.
46:03Oh, dream collab.
46:05Who have you not collabed with yet?
46:07Um.
46:08You already checked off a lot of boxes.
46:09I have, um, one of my dream collabs is Lauryn Hill, just because I love how she impacted
46:15me as a kid, as a young, and you know what I mean?
46:17Just like her music to me, I didn't grow up in church.
46:21I didn't grow up on gospel.
46:22Her music was that first blend of like faith and hip hop and R and B. And I was like,
46:27wow,
46:28I didn't know you could do this.
46:30So Lauryn Hill, I would say this is going to sound terrible.
46:34Okay.
46:35This is going to sound so bad, but old Kanye.
46:38Kanye.
46:38Okay.
46:40Yeah.
46:41Oh, yeah.
46:41Before any of this.
46:44Yeah.
46:44Before meltdown Kanye, like old Kanye would have been on the bucket list.
46:49Fair enough.
46:49I mean, I, when I think of Christian hip hop, I also think of Jesus walks.
46:54That's true.
46:54That's right.
46:55That came out.
46:56What?
46:562006?
46:572007?
46:58Very inspiring.
46:59Okay.
47:00Okay.
47:00So we always end off every episode of on the record with what would you cue?
47:04Okay.
47:04So what would you cue to take you back to your childhood?
47:07Anything Tupac.
47:09Perfect.
47:10Anything Tupac.
47:11Anything Tupac.
47:11What would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?
47:15Something Erykah Badu, right?
47:19Maybe Mama's Gun album by Erykah Badu.
47:23That was just my favorite.
47:25It was my favorite era.
47:27Oh, and she's actually on the cover right behind you.
47:29So there you go.
47:30Hey, now.
47:30There she is.
47:31Hey, Erika.
47:33From Texas.
47:34Oh, yes.
47:35DFW represent once again.
47:37Yeah.
47:37Okay.
47:38What would you cue to remember the best concert you've ever been to?
47:42Busta Rhymes.
47:44I mean, I saw Busta Rhymes, Wu-Tang.
47:47I was a kid and it was really like, it wasn't my first concert, but it was my second concert,
47:52but it was just like, I did not know.
47:55Mind-blowing.
47:56So hip hop was like, I had seen hip hop.
47:58It was my first time seeing hip hop live.
48:00So it was like Busta Rhymes, Wu-Tang Clan, I think Bone Thugs and Harmony maybe.
48:04It was like all of it.
48:05It was just like, wow.
48:07Yeah.
48:08Incredible.
48:09Okay.
48:09Last one.
48:09What would you cue to turn a newcomer onto Christian music?
48:14This is not me being biased, but I say, listen to my Anomaly album.
48:20There we go.
48:20It was actually a Billboard number one album on all charts.
48:24There we go.
48:25Billboard shout out.
48:26Okay.
48:26Thank you so much, Lecrae, for coming to On The Record.
48:28Yeah, for sure.
48:29All right.
48:30Thank you so much to Lecrae for joining me to talk about the explosive rise of the Christian
48:33music market and how it's different from everything else.
48:36And thank you for listening to this week's episode of On The Record.
48:38If you liked today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or our brand new TikTok page,
48:43at Billboard On The Record, where you can find new clips of this show every single week.
48:47We'd also appreciate if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform,
48:49because all of these things help On The Record grow bigger and better than ever.
48:54Again, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson.
48:56And tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain of the music business.
48:59I'll see you then.
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49:01.
49:01.
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