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00:00We live in a world obsessed with trying to feel better.
00:02But what if our constant pursuit of happiness
00:04and our fear of negative emotions
00:06is exactly what's keeping us stuck?
00:08All the kind of optimisation stuff online,
00:11it implies that you're going to feel happy,
00:15driven, motivated, energetic all of the time.
00:18And you're not.
00:19Dr. Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist,
00:21international best-selling author and content creator
00:24with over 10 million followers.
00:26After years in the NHS and private practice,
00:28she made it her mission to make high-quality
00:30mental health education accessible to everyone.
00:33In my experience, a lot of people have then
00:35given all the power to the medication.
00:37So they think the only reason I ever have a good day
00:39is because of that.
00:40Whereas when you learn skills to manage ups and downs
00:44and mood changes, they're tools that you've then got for life.
00:47No one can take those away from you.
00:49Today, we discuss the myth of constant happiness,
00:51the heavy burden of self-judgment
00:53and the practical toolkit you need
00:55to navigate life's inevitable storms.
00:57Dr. Julie Smith, author, clinical psychologist
01:00and social media icon, welcome to Well Enough.
01:04Thanks for having me.
01:05I'm really excited to talk to you about primarily anxiety,
01:08but also about how we control our mood,
01:11about your books, about practical strategies.
01:14Your career has been absolutely fascinating.
01:16You've worked at the NHS, private practice.
01:18You've worked with soldiers and with kids.
01:21And then you've moved to become a social media influencer,
01:24one that we can actually trust, I might add.
01:27And I think this point is really important.
01:29What has this journey taught you about our mental state collectively,
01:34you know, as people who use social media,
01:37who interact on a day-to-day basis,
01:39and what we're all experiencing individually?
01:41Because I feel like we've never talked about mental health
01:43more than we talk about it now.
01:45Yeah, it's interesting really because I think I already knew that
01:48from the work I was doing that everybody struggles at some point
01:53with something because life is hard and it throws curveballs at you.
01:57And so, you know, I'd already worked with people from all walks of life
02:01who just, you know, had some bad luck or had things happen to them,
02:04that kind of thing.
02:06I think what I did learn was, and what surprised me,
02:10was that I could, I guess, make any kind of difference with this.
02:14When I first started making videos, I thought it felt like a nice thing to do
02:19because I had lots of clients at the time who benefited so much
02:24from the educational part of therapy.
02:26And so they didn't really need long-term in-depth therapy.
02:28They just needed some skills to build their confidence,
02:31to manage their own mental health.
02:33And so I sort of wanted to make that more available.
02:37So I kind of put this stuff out there.
02:39And in some ways, I kind of thought maybe some of my old clients might use it,
02:43that kind of thing.
02:45But the fact that I've managed to reach lots of people,
02:51but not only reach them, but made a difference,
02:54you know, that it's actually been helpful to them.
02:56Do you think that when we talk about mental health issues,
03:00we're quite reductive about it?
03:02Because we always hear this phrase,
03:04it's all about a chemical imbalance.
03:06And I've been hearing that since I was a child.
03:08And from my perspective, I think, well,
03:10there's so much outside of what's actually going on in my brain
03:14that must be impacting my mental health.
03:16How do you explain the relationship between our environment and our brains
03:21and any other aspects that might be influencing our mental health?
03:23Yeah, and I think that the problem with talking about a chemical imbalance
03:27is it creates the assumption that if there's a chemical imbalance
03:33that could be seen in the brain,
03:36that means it must be the original source of the problem,
03:38which is not true at all.
03:41So your brain and the rest of your body
03:44and the state of that biology
03:46is a reflection of the outside world and the environment
03:50and what's going on.
03:51So, you know, I think it's okay to suggest
03:56that stuff's going on in the brain.
03:58Of course there's stuff going on in the brain,
04:00but it doesn't mean that's the source of the problem.
04:02And it doesn't mean that...
04:03I think, you know, lots of people who come to therapy,
04:07for example, always use medication, also use medication.
04:10Some of them do, some of them don't.
04:12And may or may not find help from that.
04:15But I guess the trouble is with only having that
04:19is that in my experience,
04:21a lot of people have then given all the power to the medication.
04:25So they think the only reason I ever have a good day
04:27is because of that.
04:29And if something bad happens,
04:31I've just got to hope medication helps me.
04:34Whereas when you learn skills to manage ups and downs
04:38and mood changes and relationship problems,
04:41they're tools that you've then got for life.
04:43No one can take those away from you.
04:45And so, you know, I'm not against medication at all.
04:48I'm against it being the only option for people, you know, I think.
04:51And that's why I sort of made
04:53what felt like a terrible business decision at the time
04:55to kind of put it all out there
04:57and make it accessible for free.
05:00Because, you know, we should all have access
05:02to the knowledge about how our own minds work
05:05and how we can then use that to manage life
05:09because life's tough, right?
05:10Yeah, couldn't agree more
05:11because we all have mental health, right?
05:13We all have a sense of balance that we're trying to maintain.
05:16And I think there was so much stigma,
05:19especially when I was growing up,
05:20the idea that you went into therapy or you took medication
05:23was for people that were suffering from a chemical imbalance
05:26or were a bit broken or weren't normal
05:28or were divergent from the norm in some way.
05:31And actually, from what I understand now,
05:33it's that we all have a brain that we need to keep in check.
05:36We all have emotions that we want to regulate.
05:38So why wouldn't we all go after the tools that will make that possible?
05:43And you say it was maybe a poor business decision,
05:46but I think you've done so much for so many people
05:49in putting all of those tools online.
05:51One thing I do want to ask you about
05:53is the relationship between young people and their environment
05:58because we seem to be seeing a lot of reports
06:01on poor mental health for young people.
06:03And yet at the same time, we're being told,
06:05oh, young people have never had it so good.
06:07So there's clearly a tension there.
06:09Is it just smartphones and social media?
06:12Or is there something else going on?
06:13It depends which angle you look at it from, doesn't it?
06:15Because, you know, life is still difficult for people.
06:21You know, we still face all the normal human problems
06:23that we've always faced.
06:26And so, you know, there's always going to be that level of struggle.
06:30Something that's happened with modern life, with screens,
06:34not only screens, but sort of advanced technology in general,
06:38is that it pulls us away from each other.
06:40So I think we've undervalued how important connection is,
06:46normal, good quality human connection is
06:48to our mental health and our wellbeing in general.
06:53And, you know, we are each other's regulation system.
06:56So we are the best and worst things for each other's stress response
07:01and for our, you know, our stress resilience.
07:05And so when we've created a society where we're all isolated
07:10and under the impression that we're connected
07:13because we're looking at a picture of a person on a screen,
07:17then we're sort of denying what it means to be human.
07:20And the things that we undervalue and underestimate
07:25have a massive impact on us as human beings.
07:29So, yeah, I think it's a whole mixture of stuff there
07:33about modern life that undervalues human connection,
07:38but also undervalues the family system.
07:40And, you know, time with parents, for example,
07:43and stuff like that.
07:46Yeah, and there's no pulling it back.
07:49There's no reversing it.
07:50But we need to have a conversation around
07:52how to be human in a world that denies
07:57our fundamental human needs at the times.
08:00I also think when kids start to get a little bit older
08:02and they become more self-aware,
08:04they're not entirely sure what's normal either.
08:07I think you've said in the past that kids are coming to you
08:09thinking that normal distress is not normal
08:13and that there's something wrong with them
08:14and that they're broken.
08:15Are you seeing that a lot?
08:17I've always seen that.
08:18I think from, yeah, before we sort of started doing anything
08:21on social, I think, and in some ways,
08:24it's a natural symptom of being a young person,
08:28being a young adult,
08:29and stepping into a world of responsibility
08:31and risk-taking and those kind of things.
08:35things, you start to experience high levels of stress
08:39or situations that feel high stakes.
08:43And so naturally, without life experience,
08:49you struggle to see how you're going to get through things
08:52and how you can cope with difficult situations.
08:55And that's, as I say, why I got started
08:58because with a little bit of encouragement,
09:00it doesn't take much.
09:01You know, a little bit of encouragement,
09:02a little bit of understanding about how your body works.
09:06And so, you know, for example,
09:08if you feel stress that your body is preparing
09:11to kind of bring its A game
09:12and that you can use that to help you focus,
09:14but also if it gets too much,
09:16you can do certain breathing techniques
09:18to help bring it down to a certain level
09:20or these kind of things that are really simple.
09:23You know, it's not rocket science,
09:23but when you put it into practice
09:26and take it seriously,
09:27it makes a difference
09:28and it helps you get through these difficult moments.
09:30And then when you get through a difficult moment or two,
09:33your confidence builds a little bit
09:34and then you're ready to go next time.
09:36And so it's these small things
09:38that just shift the trajectory for someone
09:41so that they can kind of get on their way.
09:43And yeah.
09:44Using those kinds of techniques
09:46has really changed things for me.
09:47I used to struggle a lot with low mood and anxiety
09:49and then realized,
09:50actually, a lot of this is within my control.
09:53But I do also want to ask you about
09:55what is a normal level of discomfort or sadness?
09:58Because I think there's also a tendency
10:01in the age of self-optimization
10:03where we try to completely eradicate
10:05any negative feeling.
10:07And that's perhaps swinging too far the other way.
10:10So what is a normal level of feeling sadness or discomfort?
10:13Well, I guess there is no normal level
10:16in terms of, you know, how intense that distress is.
10:19Because if you have an intense level of distress
10:23in response to a really terrible situation,
10:26then that's a normal response, you know?
10:28So when I was dealing with, you know,
10:31traumatized soldiers, for example,
10:33who are coming back from a war zone,
10:35of course, you know, once you hear someone's story,
10:38their level of distress always makes sense.
10:40And it only seems out of character
10:42until you know that story.
10:44And then you go, oh, of course,
10:45of course you feel this way.
10:46Why wouldn't you?
10:47And so I think when it comes to
10:51all the kind of optimization stuff online
10:54and, you know, you've got to be this and that
10:57and you've got to have this perfect routine
10:59and which means, it implies
11:03that you're going to feel happy, driven,
11:06motivated, energetic all of the time.
11:08You feel so surprised when you're not.
11:10And you're not, exactly, because you're human.
11:12And it kind of sets up this implication
11:14that if I have a low day,
11:17just because I've, you know,
11:19woken up on the bottom of the bed,
11:20I maybe am dehydrated
11:21or maybe I didn't get enough sleep
11:22or something's happening in my life,
11:25that somehow I'm getting it wrong then.
11:27And I'm not living up to, you know,
11:29this incredible standard of optimized living.
11:33And it sets up this sort of downward spiral
11:36of self-criticism that, you know,
11:38it's a perfectionism spiral, really,
11:39of I'm not doing it right.
11:41If I feel bad, that means I'm getting something wrong.
11:44And actually it doesn't.
11:45It means you're a human being.
11:46And, you know, in the same way
11:47that you can catch a cold
11:50or twist your ankle on a run,
11:52you know, you can physically become injured
11:54or unwell.
11:56It's the same with your mental health.
11:58You know, it can kind of go up and down
11:59and fluctuate naturally
12:02depending on what you're facing at the time.
12:04And if it's a high level of distress,
12:06it doesn't mean it's abnormal.
12:08Sometimes it can be absolutely proportionate
12:10to what you're going through at the time.
12:11I think also we feel in this optimization era,
12:15we almost feel shame
12:17when we're not getting it right.
12:18And we feel shame
12:19that we're not happy all the time.
12:20And we might look at other people and think,
12:22oh, I feel bad that I'm not like them.
12:24And shame is something that you've touched on
12:26in a lot of your work.
12:28And I want to ask you about something
12:29that you said about working with veterans.
12:32And you were explaining that some of them said
12:35they would rather have had a physical injury
12:37than a mental health issue
12:39because of the shame and the stigma
12:41associated with having that mental health issue.
12:44Is that something that travels
12:47across lots of different demographics?
12:48Or is it something that you see primarily
12:51with people who are kind of
12:52in quite a tough environment?
12:54Because it's certainly something
12:55that I think I've seen occur
12:58in lots of different people that I know.
13:00But I imagine it must be much more intense
13:02in certain areas.
13:04Yeah, and it's not to,
13:06I think when those people felt that way,
13:08it's not necessarily an accurate reflection
13:11of reality.
13:12It was kind of how they felt at the time.
13:14And it's not to diminish anyone
13:15that had physical injuries either.
13:18It's that those people who were saying that
13:21perceived the people with physical injuries
13:25as heroes but perceived themselves
13:28as weak or broken
13:33or also fully disconnected from people.
13:39I think something that happens
13:40when you have particularly PTSD
13:42is you feel completely disconnected
13:46from everybody and unable to feel understood
13:49or there's lots going on in your head
13:52and you're reliving awful traumatic experiences.
13:55So you lose touch with reality some of the time.
13:58A lot of relationships fall apart.
14:01Jobs fall apart.
14:02Homes fall apart.
14:03And that's coupled with a total confusion around
14:11is it even possible for me to recover?
14:13And what would that even look like?
14:15And how am I going to carry on with this life?
14:18So I think that particular kind of experience for them
14:20and them kind of expressing that,
14:23you know, I wish I'd had a physical injury.
14:25I think what they were saying was,
14:26I wish I could still see myself as heroic in some way
14:31or someone who is able to connect with other people
14:35and feel understood.
14:38And because, you know, they often,
14:40and with lots of different mental health problems
14:43that are severe,
14:44you feel like you're the only one having that experience.
14:48You feel like it's your fault
14:50and you feel like you're getting something wrong.
14:52And those thought processes in themselves
14:55send you further down.
14:56And so it's a really kind of difficult one
14:59to work with,
15:02but an important one to do.
15:03Why do you think we hold ourselves
15:05to such a high standard compared to others?
15:07Because it's very easy for us
15:09to have compassion for someone
15:10who looks like they're struggling.
15:11You know, we think,
15:13gosh, you're really struggling with anxiety
15:14or depression
15:16or some kind of issue
15:17that's really affecting your life.
15:19And we feel bad for that person.
15:21But for some reason,
15:22we find it hard to extend
15:24the same compassion to ourselves.
15:25Yeah.
15:26And we're taught that from a really young age, right?
15:27We're taught to, you know,
15:30feel for people
15:31and look after people
15:32and be of service to people.
15:34But for ourselves,
15:36we're just taught to sort of be impressive
15:39and do the thing
15:41that is going to make everybody okay with you.
15:43And a lot of the time,
15:45that often means
15:46kind of squashing your own stuff
15:48and your own needs
15:49and just being pleasant to everybody
15:51and helpful.
15:52And that helps you
15:54to become a good community member, right?
15:56And a good neighbour
15:57and a good family member
15:58because you're cooperative
16:00and you're looking out for other people.
16:02But somewhere along the way,
16:04we also learn to be
16:05super self-critical of ourselves.
16:07And for some people,
16:09that's maybe because
16:10their home environment
16:11was hypercritical.
16:12And so for some people,
16:14you know,
16:14if they had a hypercritical parent,
16:16for example,
16:17or sibling or teacher
16:18or some sort of adult in their life,
16:21what happens is
16:22we internalise
16:23that external conversation
16:24and it becomes our inner dialogue
16:26and it becomes,
16:27okay,
16:27this is the way
16:28we speak to ourselves.
16:29You know,
16:31this is what we do.
16:32And then a lot of people
16:34also then hold on to that.
16:35So people will come to therapy
16:38and they're in a really sort of dark place
16:40and they know
16:40they're hyper self-critical,
16:42but they're reluctant
16:43to let go any of that
16:46because they think
16:48it's the source
16:48of all their drive and success.
16:50Right.
16:51So it's pushing them forward
16:52to be a better person
16:53even though it's making them miserable.
16:55I often talk about this idea of,
16:56let's say my daughter wakes up one day
16:59and she doesn't want to go to school.
17:02If I was indulging her,
17:03I might say,
17:04okay,
17:05let's stay home
17:06until you feel like going back to school.
17:08If I was being compassionate towards her,
17:10I would find out what's going on
17:12and be curious about,
17:13you know,
17:13why don't you feel like going to school?
17:15Is there a,
17:15you know,
17:16a reason to stay off
17:17and are you unwell
17:18or what's the,
17:20but also if it was just a feeling,
17:22a fleeting feeling,
17:23then I would teach her that,
17:25okay,
17:25there's that feeling,
17:26but also here's why
17:28consistently going to school
17:29is really important.
17:30And so let's do the thing that's hard
17:33because it's best for you
17:34in the long run.
17:35So that would be compassion,
17:37right?
17:37So compassion is often
17:38doing the thing that's hardest
17:39because it has your best interests at heart.
17:42I love that advice.
17:43And I think when you put it like that,
17:45it seems really simple,
17:46doesn't it?
17:46Think about yourself
17:47and what you're going to give
17:48to yourself long-term.
17:50We talked a little bit about it
17:51when we did an episode on self-care
17:53and we were trying to discern,
17:55okay,
17:55what's the difference between
17:57self-care that actually
17:59makes you a healthy,
18:00happy person
18:01and self-care that's bed rotting,
18:03looking at your phone,
18:04huffing on a vape
18:05because they're two quite different things.
18:07Yeah.
18:08And one kind of gives you
18:09an immediate dopamine hit
18:10and the other one gives you
18:11long-term success
18:12because you've gotten up,
18:14you've gotten some sunlight,
18:15you've done a few steps,
18:16not huge things
18:17but little things
18:18that might help
18:19and I think your distinction
18:20of what constitutes
18:22self-compassion there
18:23is really key on that.
18:24How can we tell
18:25when we're being avoidant though?
18:26Is there something
18:27that might be
18:29an indication for us
18:30that we might be able
18:31to stop ourselves
18:32and think,
18:32okay,
18:33maybe this behaviour
18:34isn't as healthy
18:35as it could be?
18:36Usually when it becomes
18:37difficult to stop it.
18:39So, you know,
18:39if you decide,
18:41you know,
18:41I need to take a day off today
18:43and sleep it off
18:44because I'm just exhausted
18:46because I haven't slept well
18:47for the last week
18:47and now I'm feeling ill,
18:49then, yeah,
18:50you will do that thing
18:52and then feel better for it
18:54and then be ready to return.
18:56Whereas if that feeling
18:58of wanting to avoid
18:59and hide away continues,
19:02then you've got to look at it
19:03with some curiosity
19:04and, okay,
19:05well, you know,
19:07what's going on here
19:08and what feels difficult
19:10about the return
19:11to whatever work situation it is
19:14and once you're willing
19:16to sort of look at it
19:17with curiosity
19:18about what's going on,
19:20then sometimes
19:20you can kind of reveal
19:21to yourself,
19:22oh, okay,
19:23I see what's going on here
19:25and that's often
19:26what happens in therapy,
19:27you know,
19:27we just tear these
19:28little things apart
19:29that suddenly you realise
19:30you're doing things automatically
19:31and you're going around
19:33the same cycle again
19:34and again
19:35and wondering
19:36what's keeping you stuck.
19:38I'm a huge advocate
19:39for therapy
19:40and I think it can be
19:41so, so useful
19:42but I also love the fact
19:43that you've taken
19:45what happens in the room
19:47where therapy is happening
19:48and you've made it
19:49really accessible
19:49so your books
19:51and your YouTube videos
19:52have made it really easy
19:53for people to take those tools
19:55and run with them
19:56but you've described your books
19:57as having two different purposes
19:58so why has nobody told me
20:00this before and open when
20:01are your two books
20:02and you've described
20:03one as boarding up the house
20:04and the other
20:05as surviving the eye of the storm.
20:07Can you elaborate
20:08on the difference
20:08between those two things?
20:10Yeah, so my first book
20:11it was called
20:12Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before
20:13because that's what
20:14clients kept saying
20:14when I was doing,
20:16you know,
20:16giving them this sort of education
20:17around how their own mind works
20:19people were saying
20:20why hasn't nobody told me this before
20:21this is not rocket science
20:22but when I put it into my life
20:24it's really helping
20:24and so that book
20:26was really filled
20:27with lots of insights
20:28from therapy
20:28that you can practice
20:29over time
20:30and get better at
20:31so that when life happens
20:32you're more equipped
20:33to deal with it at the time
20:34but I found out
20:36after that book came out
20:37that lots of people
20:38who found it helpful
20:39were then carrying it around
20:40everywhere with them
20:41so that when they had
20:42a tough moment
20:42they could look up
20:43you know,
20:44what to do next
20:44and I couldn't help but think
20:46oh, I didn't really write it
20:47for those moments of crisis
20:50and the idea is kind of
20:52and I talk about it
20:53in Open When
20:53at the beginning
20:54that, you know,
20:55that first book was
20:56if a hurricane is coming
20:58then, you know,
20:59a hammer and nails
21:00is exactly what someone needs
21:01to help board up the house
21:02and protect themselves
21:04but once the storm has arrived
21:05that's the last thing they need
21:07they need someone to, you know,
21:09grab them by the shoulders
21:10say, I know a way
21:11to get through this
21:11follow me
21:12and so that first book
21:14is the hammer and nails
21:16Open When
21:17is the, you know,
21:19the grabbing by the shoulders
21:21in the eye of the storm
21:22and saying
21:22I can help you through this
21:24let's focus on X, Y and Z
21:26because often, you know,
21:27when you're in the thick of it
21:28and, you know,
21:30life's falling around
21:31you know,
21:31falling apart around you
21:32for whatever reason
21:36often the key
21:37is what you're going to focus
21:39your attention on next
21:40and I found with lots
21:41of those young people
21:42in therapy back in the day
21:45were so focused on this idea
21:47of I'm not going to be able
21:48to cope with this
21:48I don't know what I'm doing
21:50it didn't take much
21:51for someone to say
21:52here's the direction
21:54here's the thing to follow
21:55move in this direction
21:56and you will move through
21:57and out the other side
21:58and that built such a confidence
22:00in their own sense of agency
22:01oh my gosh
22:02I can affect this
22:03you know,
22:04I'm coming here
22:05and you're not going to fix me
22:05I'm going to learn this
22:06and then do it myself
22:07brilliant
22:09and so you'd often
22:10get to the sort of
22:11a certain stage of therapy
22:12where people would say
22:14instead of, you know
22:16what do you think
22:17I should do
22:17it was
22:18I know something's coming up
22:19that's going to be hard
22:20but you know what
22:21I think I can do it
22:22and I always joke about
22:23wishing that I had
22:24like pom-poms
22:25down either side of my chair
22:26to go
22:26yes, you're there
22:28go for it
22:28and yeah
22:30my job was always
22:30to sort of do myself
22:31out of a job
22:32weirdly
22:33I love the idea
22:34of different toolkits
22:35for different scenarios
22:36though
22:36because
22:37funnily enough
22:38this is something
22:38that I've not really
22:39thought about before
22:40because I
22:41I have my ideas
22:42that I've taken
22:43from therapy
22:44and ideas
22:44that I've taken
22:45from you know
22:45other disciplines
22:46and other areas
22:47of wellness
22:47and I feel like
22:49I have quite a robust
22:50toolkit now
22:50but I don't really
22:51have anything
22:52that I go to
22:53when I'm right
22:53in the middle
22:54of a really anxious
22:55moment
22:55other than
22:56maybe some
22:57breathing exercises
22:58I don't necessarily
23:00have that kind of
23:01robust framework
23:02for what to tell myself
23:03because normally
23:04it's all in the lead up
23:05so I really need
23:07to read this book
23:07so there's a chapter
23:08called
23:09When Fear Shows Up
23:10and I was about
23:14I was
23:14yeah
23:15I was a week away
23:15from handing in
23:16the manuscript
23:16for Open When
23:18when I was
23:19diagnosed with
23:20an early stage
23:21breast cancer
23:21and I was in
23:23the absolute
23:24kind of turmoil
23:25of knowing
23:26this was awful
23:27but not knowing
23:28how awful
23:29and what the future held
23:30and I thought
23:31I just need to
23:32finish off
23:32my little edits
23:33and get that thing
23:34off my desk
23:35so that I can focus
23:36on whatever's
23:37coming next for me
23:38and I just happened
23:39to be
23:40that first day
23:40of sitting down
23:41to finish off
23:42I just happened
23:43to open up
23:44the chapter
23:44on When Fear Shows Up
23:45and I read it
23:47and I'm in the height
23:48of all fear
23:49I've ever had
23:51and thinking
23:52oh this isn't quite
23:53what I needed actually
23:54and you know
23:55the basics
23:55that are there
23:56around fear
23:57are all the same
23:58but my approach
23:59was like very gentle
24:00and kind of calming
24:01and I thought
24:01actually I'm terrified
24:03I need a really
24:05hard hitting
24:06kind of
24:07this is what you do
24:08next approach
24:09I needed that
24:10firm guide
24:11to say this is what
24:12we do
24:12this is how we get
24:13through it
24:13and so I hit delete
24:15with a week to hand in
24:16and rewrote the chapter
24:18there and then
24:18just for myself
24:19and so the rest
24:20of the book
24:21is for everybody else
24:21but that one's for me
24:23and it helped
24:24there's a lot of
24:24language in there
24:25around the sort
24:27of what I'd call
24:28the predator mindset
24:29so this difference
24:30between if you approach
24:32something as prey
24:34as like a rabbit
24:35in headlights
24:35and that's exactly
24:36how I felt
24:36I felt like a rabbit
24:37in headlights
24:37of oh I don't know
24:39what's coming next
24:40I don't know
24:41where to dodge
24:42to stay away
24:42from threat
24:43or what to do
24:44and I didn't want
24:45to feel like that
24:46I wanted to feel
24:47like the predator
24:48in that situation
24:49so I wanted to feel
24:50like so a predator
24:51different to that
24:52sort of just dodging threats
24:54and not having
24:55any kind of aim
24:56I wanted to have
24:57an aim
24:58and I didn't want
24:59this thing to feel
25:00like I didn't want
25:01to feel like cancer
25:02was coming for me
25:03I wanted to feel
25:04like I was coming
25:05for it
25:05and it better watch out
25:06and so the situation
25:09is exactly the same
25:09but they feel
25:11fundamentally different
25:12and so that whole
25:14sort of predator
25:14mindset thing
25:15is about seeing
25:16your aim
25:17and putting a step
25:18forward towards it
25:20rather than a step
25:21back and not knowing
25:22where to go
25:24and every time
25:25I then read
25:26that chapter
25:28I would follow up
25:30by doing something
25:31that was in the service
25:32of my own rescue
25:33so the situation
25:34was still the same
25:34it was still terrifying
25:35but I was able
25:37to use that fear
25:39to do something
25:41for myself
25:41I love that
25:43I mean life
25:43does not discriminate
25:44does it
25:44the idea that
25:45you've got weeks
25:46to go to hand
25:46something in
25:47you're going
25:47through a health
25:48crisis
25:48presumably
25:49you also have
25:50to look after
25:50your family
25:51and tend to
25:51all the other
25:52aspects of your life
25:53I mean
25:54having that chapter
25:55now
25:56and being able
25:57to look back
25:57at it any time
25:58that's incredibly
25:58powerful
25:59and now I really
26:00need to read
26:01this book
26:02and the reason
26:03I don't really
26:04talk a lot
26:05publicly about
26:06my personal life
26:06but the reason
26:07I did with that
26:08is because
26:08when I initially
26:09found a
26:11very small lump
26:12I
26:13as I say
26:14I was about
26:14when I initially
26:15found it
26:16before the tests
26:16and everything
26:16I was about
26:17six weeks away
26:17from handing it in
26:18everything was crazy
26:19three children
26:20business
26:20book
26:21blah blah
26:22and I had
26:22the thought
26:23I haven't really
26:24got time for this
26:25maybe I should
26:26wait until I
26:27hand the book
26:27in before I
26:28go
26:28because I knew
26:29that it would
26:29be a lot
26:30to deal with
26:31and I generally
26:32had that thought
26:33of maybe I should
26:33wait until I've
26:34handed the book
26:34in before I go
26:35and get this
26:35but what made
26:36you put yourself
26:36first in that
26:37moment
26:38yeah just
26:38you know
26:39I think it was
26:40a couple of days
26:41later
26:42sitting at my desk
26:42thinking that's
26:43a silly idea
26:44yeah
26:44let's just do it
26:46and so made the
26:48phone
26:48and didn't even
26:50manage to get
26:51through to the GP
26:51that day either
26:52you know
26:52and so there was
26:54another day gone
26:54where I was
26:55you know
26:55could have given
26:56up again
26:58but then I thought
26:59gosh there must
26:59be so many
27:01you know
27:01working parents
27:02or busy people
27:03who are taking
27:04on lots of
27:04responsibility
27:05of different kinds
27:06that have the
27:07same thought
27:08of shall I put
27:09myself to the
27:10bottom of the pile
27:11and get everything
27:11else done
27:12before I think
27:13about my health
27:14I also want
27:14to ask about
27:15the 26 very
27:16specific scenarios
27:17in the book
27:18because you talk
27:19about that one
27:19chapter and that
27:20was one scenario
27:21and you really
27:22went in on that
27:23but there were
27:23lots of other
27:23scenarios that are
27:24quite specific
27:25and I think
27:26that's really
27:26handy because
27:27sometimes when
27:28I'm looking for
27:28a meditation
27:30I'm flicking
27:30through on Spotify
27:31or an app or
27:32whatever and I
27:32think I mean
27:34I've got a really
27:34specific situation
27:35here and what I
27:36want is a
27:37meditation that
27:37will get me off
27:38a ledge after
27:39I've read an
27:39email that's
27:40annoyed me but
27:40it doesn't exist
27:42but there are
27:42specific scenarios
27:43in this book
27:44so tell me a bit
27:45more about them
27:45yeah so it's
27:46split into three
27:47sections so I
27:49was sort of trying
27:49to think how do
27:50I lay this book
27:51out you know
27:51there are just so
27:52many different
27:52scenarios that
27:53people struggle
27:53with and so I
27:55was trying to
27:55think of what
27:56are the most
27:56common things
27:57that people have
27:58either come to
27:58therapy with
27:59come to me
28:00with email me
28:01with all that
28:02kind of thing
28:03or that I've
28:03dealt with and I
28:05thought actually
28:06it's they all
28:07split into you
28:09know problems
28:10when it's
28:11difficult to be
28:12with other
28:12people so all
28:13your relationship
28:14stuff and
28:14interaction stuff
28:15when it's
28:16difficult to be
28:16with yourself
28:17and we talked
28:18about the self
28:18talk thing and
28:19and lots of
28:20that kind of
28:20stuff and when
28:21it's difficult to
28:22be with your
28:22feelings so you
28:24know whether it's
28:24an email or
28:25something else
28:26that cause you
28:27know the problem
28:27becomes oh I've
28:29got this feeling
28:29I don't want to
28:30have and and so
28:31there's a whole
28:31section there on
28:32on dealing with
28:33kind of feelings
28:33and and that kind
28:34of thing so it's
28:35split into those
28:36three things and so
28:37each chapter is a
28:38slightly different
28:39scenario that things
28:40that we all face
28:41at some point
28:42because life
28:43happens but that
28:45we don't really
28:45have a manual for
28:46and and the
28:47things that leave
28:48you kind of in a
28:50world of stress or
28:51emotion that you're
28:52not sure what to
28:52do with and it's
28:53not always clear how
28:54best to deal with
28:55it and so you
28:57know each chapter
28:58then starts with a
28:58bit of a letter
28:59from me that's a
29:00bit more personal
29:01that's a sort of
29:01okay you're here
29:02you can't change
29:03the fact that
29:04you're here and
29:05you know follow my
29:06voice kind of thing
29:07let's work through
29:08this I know a way
29:09through and then
29:10followed up with a
29:12few sort of what
29:13we call kind of
29:14real-time tools
29:14things that are
29:15going to help you
29:15in the moment to
29:16think about sometimes
29:17it's just a way of
29:18thinking about it that
29:19helps you to then
29:20progress through it
29:21they always say
29:22there's no manual for
29:23life but you have
29:23written a manual for
29:24life that's pretty
29:25handy I also if you
29:28don't mind do want
29:28to ask you a little
29:29bit about how you
29:30manage your own
29:31stress because
29:32obviously you've got
29:33millions of followers
29:34being in the public
29:35eye and having that
29:36level of visibility
29:37that also I think
29:38comes with some
29:39negative aspects and
29:41I've talked with lots
29:41of guests on this
29:42podcast about what
29:44it's like when people
29:45start sending them
29:46silly messages or how
29:48they deal with the
29:48pressure to show up
29:49is that something that
29:52you have struggled
29:52with in terms of
29:53self-compassion
29:54negative feelings
29:56yeah I think I'm so
29:58glad that all of this
29:59happened for me a bit
30:00later in life when I
30:02already had my career
30:04career that I was
30:04happy with I already
30:06had a good marriage
30:07and a family and a
30:09community and friends
30:10that I was you know
30:11had my life and this
30:12was extra you know
30:14this was a kind of
30:15nice thing to happen
30:17and and that has
30:19massively helped me I
30:20think because I knew
30:21that I had that sense
30:22that if it all did
30:23switch off tomorrow and
30:24nobody was interested
30:25in more I'll be okay
30:26I'll carry on with my
30:28life you know I like
30:29helping people and I
30:29love doing this stuff
30:30but I would be okay
30:32I wasn't resting my
30:34self-worth on it you
30:35know that I wasn't
30:36doing it for social
30:38validation or
30:38popularity I was
30:40genuinely just doing
30:41it to be helpful and
30:42try and do something
30:43that felt like a nice
30:44thing to do and and
30:47so but even then you
30:49know even someone who's
30:50read all the books
30:51feels fairly confident
30:52is secure in their own
30:53life as soon as you
30:55put a camera in your
30:56own face and you're
30:57watching yourself on a
30:58screen you know
30:59sometimes we'll make a
31:00video my husband and
31:01I and then he'll want
31:02to play it back as
31:03you say are you okay
31:04with this edit and he's
31:05asking me about like the
31:06captions or something
31:07underneath and I I've
31:09watched the whole video
31:10and I'm not even focused
31:11on the thing that he's
31:12talking about because I'm
31:13focused on some little
31:14hair that's like sticking
31:15up or you know my
31:17makeup that's not right
31:18and you know it's so so
31:21for for the most sort of
31:23confident or selfish
31:24people this world opens up
31:27all sorts of
31:28vulnerabilities and so I
31:30have to be really sort of
31:32disciplined around not
31:33spending too much time in
31:34the comments once I in the
31:36early days I we did a
31:37video that went huge and
31:39there were like hundreds of
31:40comments and I'm and I
31:41remember I was scrolling
31:42through these comments and
31:44they were all saying really
31:44lovely things and I was
31:45whizzing past all the
31:46lovely ones and I realized
31:48I'm looking for someone who
31:50doesn't like this or doesn't
31:51like me and that's the one
31:52you'll focus on the one
31:54you'll think about yeah it's
31:55awful isn't it yeah I was
31:56just looking for that one
31:57negative comment I was
31:58strolling past hundreds of
31:59lovely ones and then I
32:01thought enough no stop that
32:02that's not what this is
32:03about and so we have this
32:05thing now of you know if
32:07we'd make a video and it's
32:08got a thread of value that I
32:09know someone's found
32:10helpful before but I don't
32:12look right or the lighting
32:13was bad I'm just gonna do
32:15it anyway just get it out
32:16there because the rule is if
32:19it's helpful go and then but
32:22I do stay away from things
32:24like analytics and likes and
32:26you know my husband my
32:27husband looks at all that as
32:29a kind of business side but
32:30that then protects me from
32:32having to think about it too
32:33much because if you're the
32:35one in front of the camera
32:35the tendency it you know the
32:37natural urge is to go why
32:39did people not like me on
32:41that one or do that you know
32:42just you gotta really remove
32:44yourself from that kind of
32:45side of things yeah I think
32:47it's good advice as well to if
32:49you can cultivate that kind of
32:50relationship with social media
32:51like you've said where you'd
32:53be okay if it got switched
32:54off tomorrow I think that's a
32:56really good place to be
32:56because I think when we hang
32:58too much of our our career or
33:00our self-worth or our sense of
33:02being validated by others on
33:04it yeah that's that's quite
33:05worrying place to be you use a
33:07really good metaphor of pushing
33:09a book back and forth and this
33:11idea that we're fighting our
33:13emotions so we're pushing the
33:15book across the table yeah and
33:16then there's this idea of
33:18getting okay with just carrying
33:19the book just sitting with the
33:21feelings can you explain a bit
33:22more about that because I
33:23really liked that so I often
33:24do this in therapy I won't
33:25kind of um properly do it
33:26because we'll bash the mics
33:28won't we but I'll often sit
33:29with someone in therapy and I
33:30used to use my like clipboard
33:31thing where it's really
33:33talking about that natural
33:34instinct to push uncomfortable
33:35emotion away so I would put my
33:37hand on one side of the board
33:38and you would put your hand on
33:40the other side and we would
33:41push against each other and I
33:43would say okay you push me
33:43away and every time you push me
33:45away I'm going to push back
33:46towards you and then I'd say
33:47okay imagine that's the end of
33:48the session and then you're
33:50going to go about the rest of
33:50your day but I'm just going to
33:51be doing this all day and you've
33:53got to keep me at bay and the
33:54minute you get tired or you let
33:57your guard down and you drop
33:59your hand this is going to come
34:00flying over and hit you in the
34:01face right and take you by
34:03surprise and then we imagine
34:05okay well what would that be
34:06like if you had to do that all
34:08day you still had to do
34:09everything that life demands of
34:10you but you've got to hold this
34:12feeling at bay this is all the
34:14the stuff you don't want to
34:15have right thoughts the feelings
34:16you don't want to have yeah and
34:19and so we then sort of drop the
34:22book and I would get someone to
34:24just hold their hand out
34:25instead place that stuff so it's
34:27the same rubbish you don't want to
34:28have same uncomfortable feelings
34:30thoughts stuff you'd rather be gone
34:34still the end of the session but
34:36you're going to go about the rest
34:37of your day but this time you're
34:37just going to hold it in your hand
34:38like that how would that be
34:42different what do you think well I
34:44guess you're in my view there's
34:47always this idea that I like where
34:49you're expanding to hold something
34:51so you realize you've got more
34:52space which rather than kind of
34:54bringing my arms out like this
34:55you're bringing them down like
34:56that you're I guess you're sort of
34:57like reframing how you would hold
34:59on to something or how you would
35:01use a particular energy so kind of
35:03holding it from here instead of
35:04here is that right so you would be
35:05much easier wouldn't it to go about
35:07the rest of your day focus on all
35:09the things you want to focus on do
35:11it's still there you can still look
35:13down at it and consider it when you
35:15need to but it's not threatening to
35:18overwhelm you at any point yeah
35:19because you've chosen to take it
35:20with you've accepted it and welcomed
35:22it and said okay I'm going to take
35:24you with me I know you're there but
35:26I'm going to focus on this for a
35:27minute and it becomes much easier to
35:28do because you're not kind of doing
35:29this at the same time and and it's
35:32kind of like that with feelings when
35:34we're not willing to have it it's
35:36going to be there so much of the
35:37time as soon as we're willing to
35:39take it with us I feel like anxiety
35:42you know if I if I thought oh my
35:44gosh I um I'm not going to do a
35:47podcast until I feel completely
35:48comfortable with it I would never
35:50have done any of them because the
35:51first ones were terrified you know
35:53as soon as you're willing to be
35:55anxious and take it with you then it
35:58can't hold you back and so there's
36:00this it's this sense of accepting an
36:02emotional experience even when it's
36:04uncomfortable being willing to even
36:06welcome it and then what happens is it
36:09kind of takes its natural course and it
36:10washes over you and and comes down
36:13again but when you're resisting then
36:16other things tend to resist back so that
36:20was that kind of idea really around and
36:22it's an idea from acceptance and
36:23commitment therapy where you allow
36:26emotional experience whether it feels
36:28pleasant or not to just be an
36:30experience and wash over you but you
36:33don't let it choose what matters most
36:35and what you're going to do next
36:36it's a it's a really great way of
36:39thinking about kind of all your stuff
36:40because I think so many of us we hold
36:42so much in our minds at the same time
36:45because modern life is really hectic
36:46really stressful there are so many
36:47elements that we need to consider and I
36:50think if you let it spiral and get on
36:52top of you you will just walk through
36:54life as you say pushing against that
36:56book feeling so stressed out so I
36:58loved it as an example of how we can
37:00expand to fit or you know change our
37:03attitude and say yeah okay I am
37:05stressed but that's okay yeah yeah and
37:08and it's sort of similar to that stuff
37:10we talked about at the beginning where
37:12you know how much distress is normal and
37:14it's sort of it's just allowing normal
37:17human fluctuation in in mental health
37:21the way that we do with physical health
37:22you know maybe I feel a bit sniffly on
37:24one day or maybe I've got a headache on
37:25another day I don't judge myself for
37:28huffing it I look at it with curiosity
37:30what's going on there maybe I've got
37:31a headache because I didn't sleep well
37:32last night okay I'll get an early light
37:34tonight done or maybe there's something
37:36else maybe I'll look into it a bit more
37:38it's just responding in this to mental
37:40health in the same way that we do to
37:42physical health you know with less
37:43judgment and more curiosity I love that
37:46do you have any other tips for
37:47maintaining equilibrium so the idea
37:49that you know we we don't want to
37:52necessarily be overjoyed all the time
37:54but we also don't want to dwell in our
37:56kind of lowest state how do we find
37:59balance day to day are there any ways
38:01that we can do that that are quite
38:02quick and effective yeah it's
38:04interesting isn't because there's lots
38:05of stuff online that sort of promises
38:07happiness forevermore you know I think
38:10it's a myth yeah you know you'll just be
38:12happy and and I've always found the
38:14problem with that is that then when
38:16somebody has a low day they judge
38:18themselves for having it and and and
38:23then they get into that downward spiral
38:25of I'm just not doing this good enough
38:27because everybody else seems to be
38:28coping and everybody else seems to be
38:30happy and actually sometimes even when
38:32you're happy you put a smile on for
38:33someone else anyway so we we get it
38:36wrong about how much other people are
38:38suffering because we try to put on a
38:39face for each other which is fine but
38:42you know if you're if you're setting
38:45your standard being happy all of the
38:47time it's not a human's possibility to
38:52be happy all the time so instead we
38:54change our relationship with with the
38:57difficult days and the uncomfortable
38:59emotion so that we allow it to come
39:01but but we we allow it to come but we
39:04allow it to go as well and we don't
39:06hold on to it and the way that we don't
39:07hold on to it is we don't judge
39:09ourselves for having it it doesn't say
39:10anything about who you are as a person
39:12the fact you felt down one day it's an
39:14experience that washed over you and and
39:18our job I think is to a bit like the
39:20smoke alarm thing if if our body or
39:22brain is signaling off something saying
39:24we're not okay all is not well it's our
39:27job to just work out what's this about
39:30what do I do with this now and then so
39:34rather than you know sometimes the
39:36maintain an equal equilibrium suggests
39:39that there is this perfect sweet spot
39:41and you just continue there but it's
39:43almost a bit more like a balancing beam
39:44where you know if you're balancing on a
39:46beam you'll never put you're never
39:48completely in that sweet spot you shift
39:51don't you but you you notice when
39:53you're slightly going too far one way
39:54and then you shift your weight and you
39:56come back the other way and then when
39:57you slightly go too far that way you
39:59shift away again and I think balance is
40:01much more about that sort of being aware
40:04of when you're going too far one way and
40:06then drawing yourself back it's nice I
40:08guess to remind yourself that you have
40:10the power to do that that life isn't
40:12happening to you yeah that you're in
40:14control and that you can adjust your
40:16balance do you advocate for using things
40:18like a journal as well because I can
40:20imagine for someone who has just
40:22started this journey and is thinking
40:23okay I need to process and analyze all
40:26my thoughts now is it easier to write
40:28things down and kind of look back at
40:30that kind of thing yeah and you know
40:31what I'm you wouldn't believe this now
40:33the way I'm chatting away but I'm not
40:35really a talker like I'm I'm I was the
40:37shy kid and would never have you know
40:40reached out to someone if I was you
40:42know dealing with something or
40:43struggling I would write and I would
40:46journal stuff and before long before I
40:48knew there was any kind of evidence
40:49base behind it as being helpful
40:52but absolutely for people that aren't
40:54really talkers or don't know how to
40:56verbalize stuff then just writing with
40:59no agenda other than just getting it
41:01out onto the page so you know no one
41:03ever has to read it you just have to
41:05kind of you know describe what's going
41:08on in words I would always find that
41:10really helpful because it gave me a
41:12bird's-eye view of what's going on and
41:14then somehow I felt like a jumbled up
41:17kind of thought process started to get
41:19some clarity or or helped me to just
41:22process the feeling and then get rid of
41:23the feeling so but yeah there is a huge
41:26evidence base on that being really
41:28helpful expressive writing and and and
41:32often increasing your vocabulary for
41:34different feelings in different scenarios
41:37is really helpful for emotion
41:38regulation as well so anytime that
41:40you're putting words to what you feel
41:42whether that's on paper or talking to
41:44someone you trust is great I love that
41:48advice I've always said that reading and
41:49writing is great solace and that's for
41:51me personally but I think the more people
41:53I meet the more that I find everyone
41:55else finds that too you know it kind of
41:57gives us a language it gives us a
41:59universe in which we can understand
42:00ourselves and see ourselves reflected
42:02back so that's always been really
42:03helpful to me I would love to ask you for
42:05one final tip if I may I always ask my
42:08guess what their one tip feeling well
42:09enough would be and well enough is not
42:12perfect it's not sort of being a shining
42:15example but it's one thing that grounds
42:17you and makes you feel happy and healthy
42:19enough what would your tip be oh well
42:23something that we would do with people
42:25when they were really struggling was you
42:29go back to the basics so you go and an
42:32supervisor of mine used to call it the
42:33solid back four so he was really into
42:35football and he used to say you know if
42:37you if you have a football team you don't
42:38want to get a goal scored against your
42:39team you need a solid back four your
42:41defense players and he said it's the
42:43same in mental health since then I've
42:45added once instead of a solid back four
42:47it's a solid back five but they are
42:49essentially what you're putting into
42:51your body so what nutrition and diet
42:55exercise and movement routine and
42:58daylight so doing things at the right
42:59time each day and getting daylight at the
43:02right time sleeping at the right time
43:03sleep in general and the one I've added
43:06is social connection so good quality
43:08social connection with other people and
43:10you take those five things you take
43:14anyone on this earth and you start
43:15messing around with those five things
43:16they will very rapidly become vulnerable
43:19to physical and mental illness yeah these
43:22are weapons of war they use them to
43:23break people right and and yet they're
43:26the first things we let slide if we're
43:28not feeling too good or if you've got big
43:29projects on at work or whatever you know
43:31I'll eat properly at the weekend or I'll
43:33go on that retreat at the end of the
43:34year I'll just work myself to the bone
43:36for the minute and and yet they we
43:39totally underestimate the power they
43:42have to influence our physical and
43:44mental health and so something I
43:47encourage people to do is put those
43:48five things on a post-it note put it on
43:50the inside of like your wardrobe door
43:51or somewhere your bathroom mirror where
43:53you're going to see it every day you don't
43:55have to do them all perfectly you don't
43:57have to sort of optimize your life you
43:59have to just look at every day and say
44:01what is one thing I could do today to
44:04slightly improve on one of those and you
44:06might look at it and go oh you know I
44:07haven't had vegetables for like three
44:09days or you know I haven't seen my
44:11friends in a month or you know I didn't
44:14sleep well for two nights I'm going to
44:16make sure I get an early night tonight
44:17you just got to keep checking in and
44:19it's the balancing beam thing isn't it
44:21is the awareness of when something has
44:23slipped because life happens and just
44:25bringing it back because I think if you
44:27they are the foundations of your health
44:30and so if you can keep those in check
44:32all the time then that's gonna you know
44:36the rest is sort of extra it's so funny
44:38isn't it that everyone's looking for a
44:40hack everyone's looking for the secret
44:42weapon but actually it always comes down
44:44to fundamentals and I think the post-it
44:46note idea is a really really good one and
44:48if I start to sound like your mother it's
44:49because your mother was right we hate to
44:52hear it but it's so true dr julie smith
44:55thank you so much for joining me for
44:56well and thanks for having me
44:57thank you so much for trying to get to do
45:00and thanks for having me
45:01to do
45:02You
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