- 19 minutes ago
Ahead of the counting day, a massive political war erupted between the TMC and BJP over EVM tampering claims at a strongroom in Kolkata.
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00:00Okay, let's raise the big question.
00:02The concerns over EVMs, are they valid or baseless ahead of the Bengal elections?
00:06How secure are EVMs?
00:08Have election commission ties, particularly with the opposition, hit rock bottom?
00:13What really can the EC do to rebuild trust?
00:15Will the Supreme Court have to intervene once again?
00:18Joining me now is Praveen Chakravarti, Chairman Professionals Congress
00:21and the Data Analytics Head of the Congress Party, GVL Narsimha Rao,
00:27who joins us, former Rajya Sabha MP and Senior Leader of the BJP
00:30and Dr. S.Y. Qureshi, former Chief Election Commissioner, is also with us.
00:35Let me start with you, Dr. Qureshi.
00:37We're seeing this increasingly before every election,
00:40just before counting more and more pressure on the EC's suggestions
00:43that the EC is not being a fair, neutral umpire.
00:48Do you believe that these allegations have any basis,
00:53this lack of trust in the Election Commission?
00:56Well, I don't have all facts, but the fact that the fingers have been raised
01:01from all quarters, many quarters, it's surprising, it is shocking,
01:06because any expression caused on the Election Commission personally hurts me,
01:10because this is an institution with which I was very closely associated.
01:14So the fact that, I mean, there have been times when opposition
01:18had never raised a finger against the Election Commission,
01:22why is it that they are so vocal this time?
01:24There must be something which…
01:26No, but is this claim, is this claim that the Thinamul Congress makes
01:29that central government observers can…
01:31You can't have central government and PSU employees
01:33at these EVM strong rooms on counting day,
01:37you've got to have state government employees?
01:38Is that a valid concern in your view?
01:40Or is that being exaggerated and being alarmist to put pressure in a way
01:44on the counting centre officials?
01:46Yeah, I find it a bit surprising,
01:49because all the officials of the state government
01:52are also under the Election Commission.
01:55In fact, they have transferred hundreds of them
01:57from the Chief Secretary, Home Secretary, DGP to down the line,
02:01so to treat them as outsiders and totally undependable,
02:05it is a bit surprising, because they are all under the Election Commission.
02:08And secondly, but observers from outside, from the centre,
02:14that has been the norm, observers, micro-observers,
02:19that has been the norm, but they do not have any executive role.
02:22Just to observe and report to the Election Commission,
02:25that has been the role.
02:26Right.
02:27But if they are being given executive role,
02:29that is something which needs to be discussed.
02:33Now, I'm just going to tell our viewers,
02:35before I come to both my other guests,
02:37how does the Election Commission handle EVMs?
02:40After voting, the EVMs are moved to strong rooms.
02:43The agents, the party agents,
02:45check details and sign Form 17,
02:47thereby confirming,
02:51giving a confirmation to the numbers of people who voted.
02:55EVMs are kept under a three-tire security system.
02:58Innermost layer housing EVMs remain sealed until counting day.
03:03Innermost layer is guarded by Central Armed Police Forces.
03:05Strong room monitored round-the-clock through CCTV.
03:10The second layer has paramilitary forces,
03:12agents who monitor live CCTV feed.
03:15Outermost layer is secured by the state police.
03:18In emergency, strong room can be opened in the presence of the party agents
03:22and the poll officials.
03:24Entry requires authorization letter from candidates with QR code-based ECI card.
03:29So, it is a pretty robust system, one would think.
03:32But, JVL Narsimha Rao,
03:34this lack of faith in general in the EVMs
03:36is also indicative of a lack of faith in the Election Commission.
03:40I remember you once wrote a book
03:42questioning Election Commission all those years ago.
03:45Do you believe that the system is robust
03:47or it needs a relook?
03:50Razdeep, actually, it was in, I think, 2010.
03:56We wanted a complete scrutiny of it.
03:58And I wrote a book on this.
04:00We wanted a lot more safeguards.
04:04I was principally opposed to paperless voting.
04:08Incidentally, Dr. Khureshi was the Chief Election Commissioner.
04:12He resisted a lot of our attempts.
04:14He said, no, these machines are good.
04:16They are good.
04:17They are simple.
04:17They cannot be hacked.
04:19All that is fine.
04:20But what my principle at that time was,
04:22and I continue to hold that,
04:24that every vote cast in elections,
04:26there has to be a verifiable proof.
04:29Okay, it was because of our efforts.
04:32I think we pad with great resistance from Election Commission,
04:37I must say,
04:38without, I think, with a lot of intervention by the Supreme Court,
04:41this was introduced.
04:42Today, every vote that was cast in West Bengal
04:46has been seen by the voters
04:49being dropped into the VVPAD box
04:52and it is stored and secured.
04:55So, therefore, apart from...
04:56But we don't have a 100% VVPAD trail.
04:58We do not still have a 100% VVPAD trail.
05:01That is, no, 100% is stored.
05:04Every vote is currently stored.
05:06Therefore, you, today,
05:08my, what we fought for was,
05:10non-transparent voting is not acceptable.
05:14There has to be a verifiable backup,
05:16a proof,
05:16which has actually happened
05:18because of a lot of us who fought for it.
05:21And I'm sure I must confess,
05:23Election Commission has introduced
05:25several more safeguards,
05:27several more administrative measures,
05:29after many of us highlighted them.
05:32And a full credit to the Election Commission
05:34having constituted a committee.
05:36After our effort,
05:38they constituted a committee of IIT experts
05:41and came up with a lot of innovations.
05:44So, electronic voting machine...
05:46So, you believe the system is foolproof?
05:47You believe the system as it exists today is foolproof?
05:50Am I correct?
05:51It is administrative.
05:54With all administrative and security measures in place,
05:58it is foolproof.
05:59But, but a backup in the form of a VVPAT
06:03is essential,
06:04which is what we have today.
06:06We didn't have it in 2014.
06:07We didn't have it, sorry, in 2009.
06:10It was only electronic count.
06:11Today, we have every vote that is preserved.
06:14That is what we campaigned for.
06:15And I'm happy we got that.
06:18Praveen Chakravarti,
06:19you are among those critical,
06:20particularly after the Maharashtra elections,
06:22you had questioned not just EVM,
06:23but more importantly,
06:24electoral rolls itself.
06:26And before the actual voting took place,
06:28there were questions...
06:29I'll come to you, Dr. Kureshi, in a moment.
06:31But let Praveen respond to that
06:33because I want our viewers to get a sense
06:35of what are the concerns.
06:36Praveen, what were your concerns?
06:38Are they only related to electoral rolls?
06:40Do you believe that the EVMs are tamper-proof?
06:42Do you accept that?
06:43That once that box is in the strong room,
06:45it is tamper-proof.
06:49See, the questions about the Maharashtra election
06:53were about voter lists.
06:56And there is absolute, clear statistical evidence
06:59that the voter lists for the Maharashtra state election
07:03were suspect and dubious.
07:05And what's the best proof of that?
07:07The Election Commission announces something called the SIR.
07:11Soon after Mr. Rahul Gandhi exposed them
07:15on vote-shory.
07:16Rajiv, you followed elections for a very, very, very long time.
07:20Even a year and a half ago,
07:22would you have ever thought that the Election Commission
07:25would come up with something called an SIR
07:27of revamping the entire voter rolls
07:30for every state across the country?
07:32That is the clearest proof that there was something suspect.
07:35The SIR also was there.
07:36There was an SIR in 2003 also.
07:38It's not as if the SIR has only come out.
07:40Exactly.
07:41So, that's fine.
07:42I mean, you've answered your own question.
07:452003, it was there.
07:45So, why suddenly after we raised vote-shory?
07:48No one really expected it.
07:50That's the clearest proof.
07:51On the EBMs, okay?
07:53On the EBMs, I take Mr. Jeevil Narsimarao's point
07:57about VVPAT.
07:58Now, we, the Congress Party,
08:00categorically asked for an improvement
08:03over the VVPAT system,
08:04which was when a VVPAT is,
08:07when the vote is being printed.
08:10Just to explain to our viewers,
08:11sorry, VVPAT is a verified voter trail.
08:15Paper trail.
08:16Correct.
08:17Paper trail, but unfortunately,
08:18the paper is not there.
08:19So, what we had asked for,
08:21so let me explain.
08:22What we had asked for is,
08:23once the voter presses the button
08:26on the EBM machine,
08:28there is a VVPAT machine
08:31that shows who that person voted for.
08:33We said, give that paper to the voter.
08:37Let the voter see it, touch it,
08:40feel it, and drop it into a box
08:43himself or herself.
08:45So, it was an extension of the VVPAT idea,
08:47which would improve trust.
08:49Now, we went and met
08:51two election commissioners
08:53with this request for improvement,
08:55purely to improve trust.
08:57We have it in the Congress Party's manifesto
08:59for the 2024 elections.
09:01The problem with Trump,
09:03why is there a trust deficit
09:04between the election commission
09:06and the opposition?
09:07Because the election commission
09:09almost behaves like a department
09:11of the BJP.
09:13They treat the opposition
09:14as an opposition.
09:14They don't treat the opposition
09:16as a political party.
09:17And that is where the problem is.
09:19So, we're saying,
09:21improve our trust,
09:22improve the trust deficit
09:23that we have today.
09:24Do not treat us as an opposition.
09:26So, why is it that there are
09:28different rules when we do something
09:30and when the BJP does something?
09:33Simple things.
09:35Announcing of government schemes
09:36just a few weeks before elections.
09:39Different rules.
09:40You talked about changing officers in Bengal.
09:42In Tamil Nadu,
09:43the election commission
09:44went and changed the chief secretary.
09:46Dr. Qureshi just mentioned
09:48that they do not normally
09:49have an executive role,
09:50the officers appointed
09:51by the election commission.
09:52They went and changed
09:52the chief secretary,
09:54the main person
09:55with the executive functioning.
09:57So, why?
09:58The problem is
10:00the trust deficit.
10:01You cannot solve
10:02an EVM question
10:03or a process question
10:05without answering
10:06this trust deficit issue.
10:08Before I,
10:09you know,
10:09I just want one clarity.
10:10You are saying
10:11you want a system
10:12where when I go
10:13and push a button
10:15on the EVM,
10:16I also get that
10:18VV pad slip
10:19which I can see
10:20and drop in a separate box.
10:21So, that in a way
10:22is that you are actually
10:24seeing both
10:24the,
10:25you are in a way
10:26getting both
10:27the electronic voting
10:28and the paper voting
10:30done simultaneously,
10:31right?
10:32Exactly.
10:32Instead of showing it
10:33in a small screen
10:35behind a machine
10:36in a dark environment
10:37and any way you say
10:39that you are printing it
10:40and dropping it
10:40into a box,
10:41why don't you just
10:42give it to the voter?
10:43So, let the voter
10:44touch it,
10:45feel it,
10:46see it
10:47and then drop it
10:48in another box.
10:49So, we have
10:50two sources of truth.
10:52One is the machine
10:53and the second is
10:54the paper box.
10:56You agree with that
10:57JVL Narasimarao?
10:58That if you want to,
11:00you see,
11:00it's all becoming
11:01about trust deficit.
11:02Even now,
11:02this whole battle
11:03playing out in
11:04West Bengal
11:05is the huge trust deficit
11:07that exists between
11:08the EC and the
11:09Thinamul Congress.
11:10No, I don't think so.
11:12I think it's more of
11:13a political posturing
11:14and drama
11:15because it's the same
11:17EVMs,
11:17it's the same system
11:19with which we won
11:20landslide victories
11:21in all the last
11:22five, six elections
11:23Lok Sabha
11:24and Assembly put together
11:25and there was
11:26never a doubt
11:27and suddenly
11:28there is a doubt today.
11:29I think it's a little
11:30too politically rich
11:32to believe.
11:33So, but the point
11:35that Praveen raised,
11:36I think that was
11:37discussed in the commission.
11:39You see,
11:39eventually the decision
11:40was to be made
11:41but the commission said,
11:42no, what if people
11:43put it in their pocket
11:44and take it away?
11:45What if those votes
11:46go missing?
11:47What if somebody
11:48outside the polling booth
11:49asked them to come
11:50and show me the proof
11:51so that I'll pay you
11:53or I want confirmation?
11:54These were the kind
11:55of doubts expressed.
11:57So I think this is,
11:58this was the expert
11:59committee that made
12:01certain recommendations
12:02to the election commission
12:03and I must say
12:06commissioners may have
12:07changed over the years,
12:08election commissioners,
12:09but they always
12:10almost had the same
12:12stand as far as
12:13the EVMs are concerned.
12:14I don't see,
12:15Dr. Qureshi might be
12:16critical of some
12:17decisions of the commission
12:18today,
12:18but I'll be surprised
12:20if he has a different
12:21view as far as
12:22the method of voting
12:24is concerned.
12:24No, but I think
12:25both of you agree
12:26that the VV pad,
12:28it's only how do you
12:28use the VV pad?
12:29Do you just allow it
12:30to drop automatically
12:32without touching it?
12:33Praveen Chakravarti
12:34suggests that you can
12:35actually have it
12:36in your hand
12:36and then drop it
12:37in a box presumably
12:38next to the EVM.
12:39Dr. Qureshi,
12:40do you think that will
12:41be another positive
12:43step that you need
12:44to in some way
12:44have some kind
12:46of a paper trail
12:48in a way?
12:48A paper trail
12:50which the voter
12:51can actually see
12:52for himself
12:53or herself
12:53so that confidence
12:54is even greater.
12:56No, no,
12:56he sees it even today.
12:58No, no,
12:58according to Praveen,
12:59Praveen,
13:00it drops out,
13:01of course,
13:01it drops out
13:02of the EVM.
13:03Now he's saying
13:04hold it in your hand
13:05and put it in another box.
13:06That's all he's saying.
13:07Yeah, verify it,
13:08touch it,
13:09feel it
13:09and two sources of truth.
13:11You establish
13:12two sources of truth.
13:13Verification,
13:13he does.
13:14but he doesn't
13:15touch and feel it.
13:16That's the only difference.
13:18Yeah,
13:18so that is all
13:19part of this trust deficit.
13:21Dr. Qureshi,
13:22do you believe
13:22that the real issue
13:24is the lack of trust?
13:26You see,
13:26politics has become
13:27so polarized
13:28that the EC
13:29is no longer seen
13:30as a neutral umpire
13:31by the opposition.
13:33Correct.
13:33You're right
13:34about lack of trust
13:35but imagine,
13:36remember that even
13:37EC can have
13:38lack of trust
13:39in,
13:40for instance,
13:40feel it,
13:41touch it
13:41and also
13:42what he's not mentioning
13:43and put it
13:43in their pocket.
13:44And then it becomes
13:45a cycle.
13:46Therefore,
13:47giving it in the hand
13:48of the voter,
13:49I think,
13:49will be a dangerous idea
13:50and we have been
13:51opposing it.
13:52And coming back
13:53to GVL,
13:54just correcting him,
13:56he's a very
13:56knowledgeable person.
13:57Two things.
13:58Within two months
13:59of my joining,
14:00I called an all-party
14:01meeting to discuss
14:02the EVM issue.
14:04It was led by
14:05Chandrabah Burnaidu
14:07and in that meeting
14:08itself,
14:09we decided that
14:10we'll go for
14:11VVPAT.
14:11Please stand corrected.
14:13Supreme Court
14:13decision came
14:14three years later
14:15in 2013
14:16and you have been
14:18referring to
14:18an expert committee
14:19which got formed
14:21because of you.
14:21Expert committee
14:22had existed
14:23for 20 years.
14:25Ingration committee
14:26in which
14:27after
14:27the demise
14:30it was taken
14:31over by others.
14:32So that committee
14:33has been operating
14:34for a long time.
14:35and finally,
14:37Radhi,
14:37you explained
14:38very beautifully
14:39the security
14:40procedure of the
14:42EVM
14:43after the voting
14:44is over.
14:44But what you
14:45haven't mentioned
14:46and which is very
14:47important for everybody
14:48to know,
14:48that when the
14:49polling is over,
14:50we know exactly
14:51how many votes
14:52have been cast
14:53and it should
14:54be reflected
14:55in Form 17
14:57without filling,
14:58without signing
14:59and giving it
15:01to the polling
15:02agent
15:03that the
15:04officer cannot
15:06go home.
15:07So therefore,
15:08that data is
15:08full real time
15:10and has to be
15:10known to everybody.
15:12Secondly,
15:13Yeah, but we've
15:13also had,
15:14no, sir, sir,
15:15we've also,
15:15one minute.
15:16Sir, sir, sir,
15:17Dr. Kureshi,
15:17we've had problem
15:18with Form 17C.
15:20There have been
15:20huge question marks
15:21over Form 17C
15:23that have been
15:24raised by various
15:24political parties
15:25that the EC needs
15:26to be much more
15:27transparent.
15:28It's all coming
15:29down to transparency.
15:30Whether,
15:31whether there is
15:32each booth,
15:33there must be
15:33clarity on how
15:34many people
15:35have actually
15:35voted in every
15:36booth.
15:41If there is
15:42a doubt about
15:43Form 17C,
15:45it is for
15:46election commission
15:47to clarify
15:48because,
15:48and they don't
15:49release the figure
15:50for two,
15:50three days,
15:51it is not
15:51acceptable.
15:52because actually
15:53Form 17 is
15:54completed and
15:55signed by the
15:56presiding officer,
15:58given to the
15:59agent who
16:00signed a receipt,
16:01only after that
16:02he can go home.
16:03So, you're
16:04saying that the
16:06number should come
16:07out in real time,
16:08right?
16:09How many people
16:09have voted for
16:10boot should be
16:11real time,
16:11not two or three
16:12days later when
16:13you give a higher
16:13voting percentage,
16:15am I correct?
16:15Exactly.
16:17But now,
16:17coming back to
16:18the EVM
16:18security,
16:19after the
16:20voting is over,
16:21there is a
16:21paper seal,
16:22beside two or
16:23three seals,
16:23inside the
16:24machine,
16:24there is a
16:25paper seal
16:25which is
16:26with a unique
16:27number printed
16:28in Nasik press
16:30where our
16:30currency is
16:31printed,
16:32which is
16:32wrapped around
16:33the machine,
16:34and every
16:35agent present
16:36has to sign
16:36that paper,
16:37and that paper
16:38is deliberately
16:39fragile.
16:40If you try
16:40to tinker
16:43with it,
16:43it will
16:43break,
16:44and the
16:44machine will
16:45be discarded.
16:46So,
16:47therefore,
16:47on the
16:48day of
16:48counting,
16:49what people
16:50must see
16:51whether the
16:52signatures of
16:52those agents
16:54are present
16:55on that
16:55machine or
16:56not,
16:56that is the
16:57security which
16:58has to be,
16:58because if
17:00the signatures
17:00are there,
17:01the machines...
17:01Dr. Kureshi,
17:02I take your
17:03point.
17:03I just want
17:03to give final
17:04words to both
17:05Praveen and
17:05JBL.
17:06JBL,
17:06you go first.
17:08Yeah,
17:08Rasdeep,
17:09I...
17:10parties cannot
17:11choose to be
17:12selective in
17:13their faith in
17:14EVM process
17:15and doubt it
17:17when it doesn't
17:17suit them or
17:18when they fear
17:19a loss.
17:20EVMs...
17:21Sir,
17:21you did it
17:21when you were
17:23in the
17:23opposition,
17:24you doubted
17:25the EVM in
17:252009-10,
17:26you wrote a
17:27book on it,
17:27now you're
17:28saying EVM
17:28is a perfect
17:29process.
17:30We ask for
17:31a reform,
17:32you're forgetting.
17:33You're a
17:33journalist,
17:34you don't
17:34understand the
17:35difference.
17:36The EVMs
17:36then were
17:37paperless.
17:38One had to
17:39have faith in
17:40the machine.
17:41Today,
17:42apart from
17:42this,
17:43every voter
17:44has a
17:44confirmation of
17:45a printout
17:46which tells
17:47him whether
17:47his vote
17:48has been
17:48dropped
17:49correctly or
17:49not.
17:50And that
17:50also acts
17:51as a
17:52backup in
17:53the case
17:53of any
17:54election
17:54petition.
17:55If you go
17:56to the
17:56election
17:56high court
17:57and seek
17:58election
17:58petition,
17:59a count,
18:00a physical
18:00count of
18:01VV pack
18:02slips is
18:02possible in
18:03the president
18:04system.
18:04It was not
18:05possible then.
18:06So,
18:06you cannot
18:08compare the
18:08EVMs today
18:09with the
18:10EVMs now.
18:11Okay.
18:12Praveen Chakravarti,
18:12your final point.
18:14Yes.
18:14See,
18:15I think let's
18:15not bring
18:16politics into
18:16this.
18:17We are having
18:17a serious
18:18discussion about
18:18how we can
18:19improve trust
18:20deficit and
18:21with the
18:21EVMs.
18:22You also,
18:23with due
18:23regard,
18:24Praveen brought
18:24politics saying
18:25that the
18:25opposition
18:25believes the
18:26EC treats
18:26them with
18:27double standards.
18:29Yeah,
18:29it is about
18:30the trust
18:31deficit with
18:31the EC that
18:32I'm saying.
18:32When I say
18:33don't bring in,
18:33it's not BJP
18:34or Congress.
18:35So,
18:36I'm talking
18:37about a
18:39process
18:39improvement
18:39on the
18:40EVM to
18:41bridge a
18:41trust deficit.
18:42That's a
18:42limited issue
18:43we're talking
18:43about today.
18:45I'm sorry,
18:46but I do
18:46not agree
18:47with Dr.
18:48Qureshi's
18:49classic
18:50bureaucrat's
18:51suspicion of
18:52the average
18:52Indian.
18:53I think
18:54given where
18:54we are
18:55with the
18:55trust deficit
18:56issue,
18:57the need
18:58for the
18:59voter to
19:00actually be
19:01more trustworthy
19:02because simple
19:03data
19:04suggests more
19:05than half
19:06of Indian
19:06voters say
19:07they do
19:08not trust
19:09the election
19:10process today.
19:11That is not
19:11my poll,
19:12that is not
19:12the BJP's
19:13poll,
19:13that is not
19:14one of your
19:14exit poll
19:15agencies'
19:15poll,
19:15it's a
19:16credible
19:16CSDS
19:17poll.
19:18So,
19:18we have
19:19to improve
19:20this.
19:20And for
19:21that,
19:22we can't
19:22belittle
19:23the Indian
19:23voters saying
19:24you just
19:24put it in
19:25his pocket
19:25and run
19:26away.
19:26We can
19:27very clearly
19:27tell the
19:28voter you
19:28have to
19:29drop it,
19:29only then
19:30your vote
19:30is valid.
19:30But the
19:31benefits of
19:32doing that
19:33is remarkable
19:34in terms of
19:35trust deficit.
19:36So,
19:36it is very
19:36important that
19:37we discuss
19:38this seriously
19:39as a country
19:40to improve
19:41the trust
19:41deficit problem.
19:43Either way,
19:44what we hope
19:45is that that
19:46trust deficit
19:46is something
19:48which should
19:48worry all of
19:49us who are
19:50committed to
19:50democracy in
19:51the country.
19:51India's electoral
19:52democracy is the
19:53pride across the
19:54world in many
19:54ways.
19:54but in
19:55recent times
19:56there has
19:56been this
19:56growing trust
19:58deficit between
19:59the election
19:59commission and
20:00the opposition
20:00in particular
20:01and it's
20:01spilt out
20:02if those
20:02polls are
20:03right also
20:03into public
20:04confidence at
20:05times and
20:05that could
20:06be worrying.
20:06But I
20:07appreciate my
20:07guests joining
20:08us and
20:08sharing so
20:09much more
20:10insight on
20:11that question.
20:11Thank you
20:12all very
20:12much for
20:13joining me.
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