00:01The case centres on Woolworth's prices dropped campaign.
00:06Now, the ACCC was up first today in court presenting its argument.
00:10What the ACCC is saying is when you're walking down the supermarket aisle,
00:14what do you expect to see?
00:16If you see a promotional material or what they call the ticket on the product
00:20and the ticket's basically saying here's what the price was,
00:24here's what the price is now, and that's a discount,
00:27is the consumer expected to believe that they're getting a saving in that process.
00:32And the saving is being questioned by the ACCC in Woolworth's case
00:36because they were saying,
00:37well, is it the case, Woolworths, that you actually increased the price
00:42well above what is considered a reasonable price for that particular product
00:46and then dropped the price above where it was before you lifted the price
00:51and you're calling that a discount?
00:53And the ACCC got into a little bit of trouble with the judge
00:57because they were basically saying, here is our case.
00:59And the judge said, well, that's not exactly what you had in your submission to me.
01:03Are you going down a rabbit hole?
01:04He didn't use the term rabbit hole, but he certainly said,
01:07I'm a little bit confused about what you're trying to tell me is your case.
01:11Which you don't want to hear from the judge.
01:12Which you don't want to hear.
01:13I actually messaged on Teams at the time to my team
01:16and said that I'd be quite nervous.
01:19But Michael Hodge SC is, you know, a leading counsel.
01:24So he handled it very well.
01:25But no, the judge just wanted to make it very clear
01:28to establish what the ACCC was trying to argue.
01:31That was the purpose of the opening arguments today.
01:35The ACCC given a chance to say, what exactly is it that they want to pin Woolworths on?
01:41And how can that explain the fact that this really isn't what the judge was calling an authentic
01:47or what's the word for it?
01:48A fair dinkum discount that consumers can rely on.
01:51And one particular product was the focus today?
01:54Yeah, the Oreo Family Pack.
01:56Look, there were Tim Tams talked about as well, not to make you too hungry.
01:59But the Oreo Family Pack is interesting because the ACCC has picked this
02:03because it's a classic example of Woolworths actually increasing the price of this product
02:09prior to even establishing the prices dropped campaign.
02:13So they've lifted the price of this product.
02:15You can see very clearly it's been up at a certain level for a certain period of time.
02:18And then it's come down.
02:20The price has come down and rested there above where the product was initially lifted to.
02:25And you can see it quite easily.
02:27The price really wasn't established at that higher price before it was discounted.
02:32And again, that goes straight to the ACCC case, which is saying,
02:36how long do these prices need to be at a certain level
02:40before consumers can say that's the normal price for this particular product
02:45and therefore anything below that is in fact a discount?
02:47And did Woolworths legal team get a chance to say anything today?
02:51They did.
02:52And Woolworths has spent...
02:54They didn't get quite as long as ACCC did.
02:57The case is ongoing, obviously.
02:59But what Woolworths really tried to hone in on this afternoon, Joe,
03:02is that the ACCC is saying that these prices,
03:08before they're lifted and then discounted, are stable
03:11and that consumers can expect the price for Tim Tam or the Oreo Family Pack
03:16to be at that level for a considerable period of time
03:19or for a period of time that a reasonable person would expect
03:21that that is the price of that product.
03:23But lead counsel for Woolworths said,
03:26well, hang about.
03:27In 2021 or thereabouts, we had a lot of inflation.
03:30Prices were moving all over the shop.
03:32How could you expect that a consumer or someone visiting Woolworths
03:35would expect a price to remain at any level for any period of time?
03:39Surely that means that we simply can't use this as an argument.
03:43And he even said to the judge that the ACCC's case
03:47is based on this idea that it's about the time
03:51that a product is at a certain level before you can say
03:54that's the price of the product and any lift from there
03:57is going to be illusory before you discount it.
04:00The judge said if the ACCC's case is entirely based
04:04on the timing of a product before we move to the discount,
04:08that's OK.
04:10And Woolworths had to then move on to the next argument.
04:13So what the judge is saying is if the ACCC sets up this idea
04:16that there is a regular price for a product
04:19and that product should be at that price for a period of time,
04:23then if you're going to lift the price from there and drop it,
04:26well, that's misleading consumers.
04:28But if you can drop it from that price level,
04:31that is a genuine discount.
04:33OK.
04:33So a lot of detail going into that.
04:35It's very hard to explain.
04:36In a federal court hearing.
04:38Yes.
04:38Why is this so important for the ACCC?
04:41Because there's a case against Coles as well.
04:43Yeah.
04:44Well, the ACCC is essentially a dog with a bone here.
04:47This is, I guess, Alan Fells described this
04:51as the second episode or sequel to the Coles case.
04:55And what legal experts have told the ABC today simply
04:58is that there is an argument to say that if the consumer law can change
05:04or the law can change pricing in supermarkets,
05:09the consumer staple stocks that we see every day,
05:11if the law can change the way that those products are priced,
05:15and that will have a ripple effect across other products in the economy.
05:19And maybe we will start to, or consumers will have more confidence
05:23in going into a supermarket or any shop,
05:26seeing a discount and knowing that what advertised
05:29will genuinely save them money.
05:31That's at the centre of this case.
05:33Yeah, so this might set a bit of a precedent.
05:34Absolutely.
05:35So when is it likely we'll get a result on this?
05:37Well, the Coles case went for a few weeks.
05:41I imagine this will also go for a few weeks,
05:42but we won't know the outcome of the Woolworths case
05:44until the Coles case has been resolved.
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