- 13 hours ago
The six cranes working on the National Security Officer Precinct near Parliament House were even discussed in Senate estimates
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00:00I think it can be managed internally.
00:02Okay, thank you. I'm done.
00:04Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
00:05It's a good answer to Ms Sharma.
00:07Thanks, Chair. Thank you and good afternoon.
00:09I had some questions about the National Security Precinct,
00:13which I understand finance is leading on that project.
00:16We are.
00:17Close to your heart, certainly.
00:18Well, it is.
00:20I noticed those six brightly lit blue cranes on the drive-thru.
00:24There's not very much we can say in an open hearing on that.
00:30But let's see how we go.
00:32Let's see how we go.
00:32I mean, some contractors in Canberra have told me it's over-craned,
00:36but I'm not experienced enough to know whether that is a legitimate criticism.
00:41And I have noticed the number of cranes.
00:43It was a lot of cranes.
00:44Yes.
00:45But that's it. Six is how many?
00:47Six, that's right.
00:48Yeah, that's what I counted, yeah.
00:51So when did construction commence?
00:55There was a sod turning last year?
00:56Yeah, there was.
00:57It would have been in early 25.
01:00Okay.
01:01I feel like it was...
01:04Maybe it was the...
01:05Sorry, it might have been 24.
01:07I remember it being cold, so it could have been winter 24.
01:11Nick's here.
01:11Yeah.
01:12Mr McClintock will be able to answer those questions.
01:15Mr McClintock.
01:16Good evening, Senator.
01:17Nick McClintock, First Assistant Secretary, Commercial Group.
01:20So your question was...
01:22Just when did construction commence?
01:24So when was the sod turning, I guess?
01:25So the smoking and sod turning for the precinct was in 20...
01:33Yeah, it was...
01:34I think it was March 2025.
01:36Okay.
01:37Okay, just before the election.
01:38Yeah.
01:38Okay.
01:41Now, according to the website, it says that the precinct will provide a permanent solution
01:46to the critical accommodation and capability requirements of several national security
01:51and other commonwealth agencies.
01:52I've seen public reporting of some agencies that will be foundation tenants.
01:57What can you advise about, I understand, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Office of National Intelligence?
02:05Yep.
02:05Are there other government departments that are confirmed as tenants?
02:10So the precinct...
02:10I'm just going to say, Senator, as you probably know, there's only so much that they can discuss.
02:16Yeah.
02:16Yeah, but I think in the public interest...
02:17I mean, the location of a lot of these buildings as well, and publicly, including within our intelligence
02:22community.
02:23So that's not a national security secret in and of itself.
02:26So, Senator, it's been identified.
02:28It will be the headquarters for, as you said, the Office of National Intelligence and Department
02:33of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
02:35DFAT will also have another accommodation site, which is currently constructed on 19 National
02:42Circuit, and they've announced the fact that those two buildings will constitute DFAT's
02:49presence in the ACT.
02:52We are engaging with other agencies as part of the development for the precinct going forward,
02:58and we'll continue to do that as we finalise construction and then move into the, I guess, that transition
03:06and operating phase as entities move into the precinct.
03:09Okay.
03:10And I see it's envisaged that people will also accommodate private sector tenants?
03:19So it's expected to accommodate 5,000 workers from both the public and private sector.
03:24So that relates to, I guess, a retail offering that we will have, but that will not be located
03:30within the precinct.
03:32That will be located on what's known as Windsor Walk, which is the strip of land that is outside
03:38the precinct that flows from Kings Avenue down to, I think that's Brisbane Avenue is the other
03:45street.
03:45And that's a, that's a, that's a, um, to accommodate, um, I guess, the service needs of where it's
03:52there, but more generally.
03:53So from Kings Avenue to Brisbane Avenue, but not in parallel to State Circle, that circuit?
03:57It's, it's parallel to State Circle, but it's on the other side of the precinct.
04:00Yeah, but it will be outwards facing, uh, and that'll include opportunities for cafes and
04:05those sorts of things.
04:05So is this sort of at the north of the current PM&C?
04:08Is that roughly one of the, it's Windsor Walk?
04:10Uh, yeah, so it's between, it flows between PM&C and the, the oak plantation that's runs
04:17along with Kings Avenue.
04:18And there's the algorithm in the trees.
04:20Yes.
04:21Okay.
04:22So the, the private sector clients are really sort of.
04:25Service.
04:26Hospitality.
04:26Service.
04:27Service retail to serve the precinct.
04:29Okay.
04:29That's right.
04:30Um, have any conversations with private sector, potential private sector tenants commenced?
04:35Uh, so within that, that, that room, that space?
04:40Yes.
04:40What I've just described.
04:41No, we, we haven't gone down that road yet.
04:43We're still finalising design and moving into full scale construction delivery.
04:48So, um, that's, that's, uh, a series of conversations that we will be having over the next couple of
04:54years.
04:55Um, we will need to be, um, exploring those conversations, obviously with a security lens, noting, uh, their
05:05proximity to the precinct, uh, and the sort of services that they'll be providing.
05:11But, um, that proximity is being accommodated as part of the design and construction process.
05:17Okay.
05:18And, um, I was just trying to work this out, but you might be able to help me.
05:22Which parts of this, um, sort of precinct project have already been through the Public
05:28Works Committee?
05:29It's the, there was the, the car park, the enabling car park, as I understand it.
05:35So the car park, um, went through the Public Works Committee, I can tell you.
05:40Sorry, just give me two ticks.
05:44Um.
05:50So, um, the John Gorton car park achieved, um, public works approval.
05:59So because it's, oh, actually, no, sorry, um, because it's located in the parliamentary
06:04zone, um, it was subject to parliamentary approval, which it received on 11th of May, 2023.
06:11Uh, in terms of, yes, because it had parliamentary approval, um, it was exempt from PwC.
06:26Um, just for my visit, so that's the, it's the, it's the House of Representatives.
06:31Yep.
06:32Uh, it, it, it, it's parliamentary approval through both houses under the Parliament Act 1974.
06:38Okay.
06:39Parliament, Parliament Act 1974, and that's because it was in the, it's in the parliamentary
06:43triangle, is that right?
06:44So it's, so it, it, it's required to go through parliamentary approval process.
06:48Okay.
06:49So does that mean, um, subsequent elements of the National Security Precinct will go through
06:55the same process?
06:56Uh.
06:57Or is the.
06:58So the security precinct site proper, um, A is not part of, is not in the parliamentary
07:04triangle, so it's subject to those requirements.
07:07It also has an exemption from the Public Works Committee, uh, owing to its, um, security requirements.
07:15Oh, I see.
07:16So the, so the project hasn't been to the National Security Precinct, hasn't been to the
07:20PwC?
07:22Uh, it, and, and it won't, because as I say, it has an exemption, the Minister signed an exemption
07:26because of security requirements, we do engage the PwC on a semi-regular basis to keep them
07:34apprised of, of how the, the, um, the project is proceeding, but because of the requirements
07:40for the PwC to be, to disclose, uh, information around its considerations, for security reasons
07:46it was, um, deemed to be exempt from the PwC process.
07:52Okay.
07:53So is there a, is there a budget for the project?
07:59Yes, there is.
08:00But it's not for publication.
08:02And so why is it not for publication?
08:05On national security grounds.
08:09And, and commercial, I mentioned, and commercial grounds.
08:13Senator, also because of commercial grounds, we will be negotiating with various parties
08:19over the life, uh, to secure services, uh, and so, uh, providing that number will, uh,
08:27prejudice our negotiation stance.
08:29Hasn't a land lease already been awarded the contract as managing contractor?
08:34That's correct.
08:35Mm-hmm.
08:36Okay.
08:36So contract has been appointed and construction's commenced.
08:39Where's the commercial, where are the commercial sensitivities in the overall cost to the taxpayer
08:43of the project?
08:44Sorry, Senator.
08:45Under a managing contractor model, so they essentially run the, the construction delivery,
08:52but there is a series of subcontractor engagements that go on through the life of the project.
08:57So, um, so packages for a particular services, uh, as part of the construction process are let
09:06to the market and lend lease as the MC manages those.
09:09So there are, uh, ongoing, um, I guess, market engagements that we need to be mindful of, uh,
09:17as part of the whole of project oversight, hence the reason why, um, the, the overall bucket,
09:24budget of, of funding for the project remains commercial in confidence.
09:28There is still ongoing commercial considerations through the project that we need to be mindful of.
09:32So we would report against that at the right time.
09:35Yes, that's correct.
09:36I mean, that will need to be accounted for publicly once all that's been finalised.
09:40The, the money?
09:41Yeah.
09:42And it is, it is, um, provided for in the budget.
09:45Yeah, so I was going to, I mean, will the eventual construction costs be disclosed?
09:50Yes.
09:51Yes.
09:52So they're not national security considerations, they're just commercial considerations?
09:54Well, there's, I mean, it's commercial, but because of the nature of the work, the building,
10:01um, you know, that impacts on, you know, the packages that are going out over the project.
10:06But yes, I should have said, the main reason is commercial reasons for that.
10:11It will be fully accounted for.
10:13I mean, there may be the opportunity to brief, if there's interest, um, brief, uh, the PJCIS
10:19or something like that about the project at the relevant time.
10:22I think we would be more than happy to do that.
10:24So we, that, that's our regular reporting line to Parliament.
10:27We're actually scheduled to, um, present to PJCIS in a couple of weeks' time.
10:31On the National Security Precinct?
10:33Correct.
10:33Have you already, are you able to say whether you've already presented to it?
10:36I'm not on that.
10:37You have, I think.
10:38So we've done it twice before.
10:39Okay.
10:40Yep.
10:40Including on the cost?
10:42Uh, the cost was disclosed as part of that briefing, yes.
10:47Okay.
10:48Um, so the cost will eventually be disclosed publicly.
10:52In the public domain.
10:52Beyond that.
10:53Um, is that going to need to wait for the completion of the project or just the advancement of some
10:59of these commercial considerations?
11:01I would think it would need to be at the completion of the project, Senator.
11:06So, I mean, um, as the Minister said, there are part of the design delivery and the packages
11:13we're going out have a heavy security element to them and cost disclosure can go to what
11:20those security requirements relate to.
11:22So we've been doing so we're doing so far.
11:24And, uh, uh, at an abundance of caution, we need to be mindful of not over-disclosing what
11:28that potentially looks like, because that could point to what we're doing, how we're doing it, and, and who we're
11:33engaging in that regard.
11:36I'm just conscious of the ASIO headquarters construction,
11:40which was not that long ago.
11:41Some of you are probably around or involved in that.
11:44I mean, that was...
11:47When the contract was awarded, the project cost was disclosed.
11:50This is in August 2007, and there were cost blowouts and overruns,
11:55and they were all publicly reported.
11:57Questions on notice were asked in the Senate,
11:59and questions on notice were answered.
12:02So they've got the same or analogous
12:05or has serious security considerations as this precinct.
12:10So it just seems like there's different standards of transparency
12:14being applied to this project versus that one.
12:17Has anyone looked back at how the ASIO building...
12:21Absolutely, and that's the reason that we've taken all the steps
12:23that we have is lessons learnt from the Ben Chiefly building.
12:27There was too much transparency last time around.
12:30What were the lessons learnt?
12:31There were different steps that we took.
12:32So, for example, the nature of how we've undertaken
12:36some of our procurements, we've done differently this time around.
12:39There was a heavy reliance upon blind procurements last time,
12:43whereas this time, looking at some different models
12:46depending on the procurement packages,
12:48some of the disclosure requirements that we've met this time around,
12:52we've looked at it through the lens of how better to accommodate this build,
12:58which is a more complex build in that it's a whole of precinct
13:02as opposed to a singular building.
13:05Happy, if you like, Senator, to take that on notice.
13:08We can provide you with a little bit more information around our approach.
13:11You're in that.
13:11I would also say that this was the first project that was brought to my attention
13:17as Minister for Finance when I was appointed.
13:20So it was work that was developed and completed under the former government
13:24but not proceeded with.
13:25The advice to me was very clear that we need this building
13:29and we need it built quickly or, you know,
13:34acknowledging that it was probably a four- to five-year build.
13:37So it was the first project I went into to, as you can imagine,
13:42Minister for Finance asking for a lot of money for a new security precinct.
13:46How that was unexpected.
13:49We weren't aware of that project when we came to government
13:52but it has not required additional resourcing since then.
13:56So if you're worried about, you know, this...
14:00I'm not saying there's not pressures on the project.
14:02They're being managed very carefully.
14:04But, you know, some of the problems that affected the ASIO build,
14:08maybe it hadn't been...
14:10I wasn't around at the time,
14:12but those have not been a feature of this project.
14:14We have made one...
14:16Well, the car park, which we have disclosed the costs of,
14:19and then this project,
14:21there has not been any additional appropriation for any overruns
14:24at this point in time.
14:27Okay.
14:29So how is it treated?
14:32I mean, obviously, it's not for publication in the budget papers,
14:34but how is it actually treated in the budget, the allocation?
14:40Sorry.
14:41It's...
14:41It's...
14:42It's...
14:42Yeah.
14:43It's...
14:44It's...
14:44It's in the administrative line.
14:46Yeah, it's not...
14:47It's not...
14:48It's not out of my office.
14:49Okay.
14:50But it's included in the total expenditure figures.
14:53Yes.
14:53Okay.
14:55Does that mean I could work it out by deduction?
14:57Or no, there's too many...
14:57There's too many...
15:11There's too many on's and off's.
15:23There's too many on the budget.
15:24It's not the $10 million that was put to me,
15:25but I said that number is not for publication for the reasons.
15:29But it is a large, as you can imagine,
15:31and it's from the size of it,
15:32it is a very significant infrastructure spend.
15:40Sorry, we might have covered this already,
15:41but completion date of the project, did you say 2029?
15:44So we're aiming by the end of 2028 is what we're aiming to.
15:50So why they got the extra crane?
15:52Yeah.
15:53Why they got the extra, sorry.
15:56So why they've got six cranes?
15:58Yeah, six cranes is...
15:59We've got six cranes.
16:00The end of 2028, okay.
16:08Okay, look, I think that is all I had on that project for now,
16:13but I would like to, you know,
16:15obviously get updates and subject and estimates
16:17and, you know, to the extent that more detail can be revealed,
16:21including about cost and timings and cost pressures.
16:25I think it's, yeah, I can understand the commercial and confidence considerations
16:29and, to a degree, the national security considerations,
16:32but only up to a point.
16:35If you're after a confidential briefing on the project,
16:38I'm sure we could arrange for that,
16:40you know, in confidence kind of arrangement.
16:45Okay.
16:46I will take you up on that, and I appreciate the opportunity.
16:48Okay.
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