Giuseppe Rinaldi si addentrerà, con la preziosa collaborazione dei dirigenti di Polizia di Stato Marco Odorisio e Angela Lauretta, in una indagine ricca di colpi di scena che, partendo dal delitto di un'anziana signora (Francesca Vianello) avvenuto a Mestre nel 2015, ha portato gli investigatori a riaprire il caso già chiuso e apparentemente risolto di una ottantasettenne strangolata nel suo appartamento tre anni prima: Lida Taffi Pamio.
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TVTrascrizione
00:15Mrs. Lida and Mrs. Francesca are two elderly women.
00:20Their lives are similar, few habits, always the same.
00:26It's the only place where they feel safe and protected: their homes.
00:34Then, suddenly, the horror.
00:38A first time...
00:40Punched, strangled, and finally stabbed at least twice.
00:44We are all shocked.
00:47And then a second one.
00:50A noose around Mestre's neck is a mystery, the murder of an eighty-year-old.
00:55This is how Mestre, the antechamber of Venice, discovers its dark soul.
01:08To solve the mystery of these two deaths, that of Mrs. Lida and that of Mrs. Francesca,
01:17you have to follow the thin, winding thread of a broken chain.
01:23She was killed in her home, with several stab wounds, and a necklace was stolen from her.
01:47Good evening and welcome to Detective, the new Re 2 program created in collaboration with the State Police.
01:53The news stories we will tell this evening are set in a world made up of old ladies,
02:01where between a game of tumbola and a blow-dry done in the shop under the house,
02:07nothing unexpected should happen.
02:11But that's not the case.
02:13Lida Taffi Pamio is an 87-year-old pensioner.
02:19She lives alone in her small apartment at Via Vespucci 13.
02:24We are in Mestre, in Venice.
02:27On December 20, 2012, in the late afternoon, his body was found.
02:35The woman was killed in a brutal, terrible way.
02:40The Taffi Pamio murder in Mestre.
02:43The 87-year-old was found dead in her apartment in Mestre on December 20, 2012.
02:48Punched, strangled, and finally stabbed at least twice.
02:57Marco Dorisio, good evening.
02:59Good evening.
02:59Today she is the police commissioner of the province of Pordenone.
03:02At the time of the events he was head of the Venice flying squad.
03:07That afternoon, when he arrives at this lady's apartment,
03:12he is faced with a terrible scene.
03:16But before we delve into the dynamics of this crime,
03:20I would like to start from the victim.
03:24Yes, Mrs. Lida Taffi Pamio was originally from Lazio.
03:30Together with her husband she arrives in Mestre, where she practically remains a widow for a few years before losing her husband.
03:39Before that, another serious loss: her twenty-year-old son tragically lost his life in a road accident.
03:47She was a lively lady nonetheless.
03:48And what were this lady's habits?
03:52He used to organize bingo games with a gentleman of more or less the same age at his house,
03:56which were moments in which they would digress, in which they would talk serenely.
04:01In short, a normal life, that of Mrs. Lida Taffi Pamio.
04:05Yet she is found in her home, killed but in a brutal way.
04:11How is this possible?
04:12Yes, a very normal life with a seemingly inexplicable death.
04:21This lady is a lady of over 80 years old, almost 90, who lived alone.
04:27We saw her in a few photos and you see a lady who was very careful about her appearance too.
04:35physicist,
04:36a little lipstick, the necklace, so she looks like your grandmother, right?
04:43But let's go back to that December 20, 2012.
04:47It was just after 5.30pm when Mrs Lida's lifeless body was found in her apartment.
04:55of Via Vespucci.
05:03It was this nephew who raised the alarm; he was waiting for her downstairs in the car, on the street, when he didn't see her arrive.
05:10He went up because he also thought that something had happened to his aunt, she had fallen ill, etc.
05:17And unfortunately he found himself faced with what he found himself faced with, in short.
05:36The body of Mrs. Lida Taffipamio was found between the dining room and the kitchen.
05:44He has a broken knife blade in his neck and another knife stuck in his chest.
05:57Then strangled with the cable of the television decoder and one of the details that had struck me a lot at the time,
06:05he also had paper towels stuffed in his mouth.
06:10What does the medical examiner tell you?
06:13It highlights that the murder was carried out using first a nutcracker, then knives that were on a stump in the nearby
06:21Kitchen.
06:22The decoder cable was also used, the paper towel was used to block it
06:30her mouth and then her head was wrapped around it too.
06:36There was a lot of mess, drawers open, overturned.
06:42Yes, it seemed that this crime had been committed precisely for the purpose of robbery.
06:47Was Taffipane killed in a robbery gone wrong?
06:52Already in the stars above the place there were several things that didn't add up.
06:57The door, for example, showed no signs of forced entry, so he had probably opened it for someone he knew.
07:04And still other questions.
07:06Why remove the battery from your cell phone?
07:10And again, why take away house keys that have never been found?
07:16All questions that have started to make us reflect.
07:20From what you're letting me understand, you're ruling out the robbery possibility?
07:24Yes, the drawers opened almost in an orderly fashion, a staging.
07:30Everything seems less and less convincing as a robbery hypothesis.
07:34And then the heavy cleaning with towels, not the crime scene.
07:40What robber takes the time to clean up, to put away, to make the traces disappear?
07:45And then another aspect, that is, relative, nothing has been taken away.
07:49The lady's cash and jewelry were found.
07:53A small chain was missing.
07:55At least that chain was gold.
07:57Yes, the hypothetical told us that he always wore it, it had sentimental value.
08:02In short, whoever kills Mrs. Taffipamio only takes that little chain with him.
08:08It's strange, but it's true.
08:10What is your first impression?
08:12The first impression is one of ferocious fury, certainly not attributable to a theft.
08:19A ferocious fury that is defined in criminology as overkilling, that is, an excess of violence by the aggressor towards the victim,
08:27which is often due to, finds its cause in, previous relationships between the victim, the person killed and the aggressor.
08:35Isn't this a simple case, Dr. Odorizio?
08:39No, it's definitely not a simple case.
08:42How are the investigations progressing?
08:44The investigation continues to reconstruct the last moments of Mrs. Lida's life, that December 20th.
08:52At 1pm she goes to the hairdresser, right under her house, to send Vespucci for a blow-dry.
08:57And she will leave the hairdresser's at 2.25pm, who is the last person who will see her alive.
09:04She is not surprised in her house by a robber, because she enters calmly,
09:09She has time to put the hairdresser's receipt in her diary, along with two 50 euro notes.
09:17And the continuation of the day was that the nephew would pass by at 5pm,
09:22who lived in Mestre, to pick her up and take her to an eye exam.
09:31The forensic team is starting to work. What information do they provide you?
09:37In the place above, a fingerprint left by the attacker in Mrs. Lida's blood will be found.
09:46a footprint that will be classified as a shoe size between 37 and 39.
09:52So a number that certainly cannot be traced back to a man and that will direct us at an investigative level to pay attention to a figure
10:00female.
10:01So it wouldn't be a murderer, but a female murderer.
10:07Was Mrs. Lida killed by a woman?
10:11It really seems so.
10:12Besides the shoe print, did the forensic team find any other traces?
10:18Yes, he spots a mixed trail of blood and sweat near the switch, leaving the house.
10:27And it is confirmed that it is blood and that the DNA is attributable to Mrs. Lida,
10:33while the sweat trace, the DNA, will turn out to belong to a female subject.
10:41How is the investigation going? What are you doing?
10:44We're starting to contact the neighbors of the apartment building at Via Vespucci, 13, door-to-door.
10:51Then we hear from the friends of the bingo, we hear from all the family members,
10:57also because there was a fact that emerges in the context and in the sphere of relatives, of close relatives,
11:03that of a will which at first had seen the apartment given,
11:12so also an important asset to a grandchild.
11:16Will which is then changed, where the recipient, who will be able to benefit,
11:21to inherit the apartment, is another nephew.
11:25In short, you discover that the lady had left her apartment in her will,
11:31first to one grandchild and then to another.
11:34Well, this could have been a moment.
11:37In fact, we didn't exclude it at the beginning, but then with all the activities, the feedback,
11:42and even with the interceptions, we excluded the circle of relatives as traceable
11:48or as involved in the murder of Mrs. Lida.
11:51In short, the trail of the will disappears within a few hours.
11:56At that point?
11:57We focus on the condominiums of the building at Via Vespucci, 13,
12:03because Mrs. Lida had certainly opened the door to a person she knew, known.
12:10And then the other aspect, the other anomaly,
12:14the bloody footprint in Mrs. Lida's house, in the apartment,
12:18on the landing and along the stairs there were no traces of these footprints.
12:22It seemed as if the killer had never left that building.
12:27So let's put all the tenants under wiretap
12:30and something extremely important emerges from the wiretaps.
12:36It's all about money.
12:39Were you lending money around, Ea?
12:42Tonight?
12:43Yes, we've heard all sorts of things.
12:46How do you say it? Usurers.
12:49Loan sharks?
12:49You're a loan shark, good, a guarantor, and an unpleasant person.
12:57In this wiretap,
13:01where Mrs. Taffipagno, the victim,
13:05she is defined as a loan shark,
13:08It comes from the apartment opposite the victim's.
13:15A 50 year old lady lives in this apartment.
13:20whose name is Monica Busetto.
13:23Who is Monica Busetto?
13:26Monica Busetto lives alone,
13:29She is a healthcare worker who works at the Fatebene Fratelli hospital in Venice,
13:35He takes care of the elderly and works night shifts.
13:40He has a sister, his father, who then remarried because his mother died,
13:47She is a very shy and reserved woman.
13:54In light of these interceptions,
13:57you go and reread what Mrs. Busetto
14:01he had told you on the very day of the crime.
14:05What do you discover?
14:06That day he had told, put it on record,
14:09statements where he represented an excellent relationship with Mrs. Lida,
14:14not only good-neighborly, but also friendly,
14:17when instead the wiretaps deny all this.
14:25He is a person who speaks very quickly,
14:29lives on immediate emotions,
14:30in fact many of the interceptions speak of a Monica Busetto
14:36who is angry with this lady,
14:39but she's angry because she, a month, not even a month later,
14:43in early January, it is registered in the crime reports
14:46as the only suspect in the murder.
14:50At that moment there, journalists, video reporters,
14:53they besiege Monica Busetto's house,
14:56so much so that Monica Busetto is forced to go and live with her father.
15:00in Venice.
15:04The wiretaps continue.
15:06In another phone call Monica Busetto speaks with a friend of hers,
15:11another woman,
15:12and what emerges from this conversation
15:16expresses hatred unequivocally,
15:20the resentment that Monica Busetto harbors towards the victim.
15:28Lady, perfumes and toys,
15:30make me dead here,
15:31you'll spit in her face right now,
15:34so much respect he had.
15:37Filled with shit,
15:39we had to proceed with caution,
15:42that palmarina that was nothing else.
15:46On January 22, 2013,
15:50just over a month after the crime,
15:53Monica Busetto's situation is getting worse.
15:56The men of the Venice Flying Squad
15:59they go to his house for a search
16:02and some objects are seized.
16:07Which ones exactly?
16:09The carpet in front of Mrs. Monica Busetto's house,
16:13some mops,
16:15a pair of slippers
16:16and above all a broken necklace.
16:24And I ask myself a question,
16:26that this is the necklace
16:28snatched from Mrs. Lida by the murderer on the day of the murder?
16:34Monica always said that was the necklace
16:37which had been given to the sister
16:40at the time of baptism
16:42and that had never been used
16:44and that had broken
16:47because, being the Venetian type of shirt,
16:50which are practically a very particular shirt,
16:52that if not kept in an optimal manner
16:56it breaks because it's not like a normal necklace
17:00which is flexible, is very rigid.
17:05Does this explanation seem credible to you?
17:07It's a 58cm necklace,
17:10too long for a newborn baby girl.
17:14And the same sister, too,
17:16heard on record,
17:17he has no memory of this gift
17:19nor of this necklace.
17:22In the days following the search
17:26and the seizure of this chain,
17:28Monica Bucetto is increasingly nervous.
17:31During some interceptions
17:34other interesting elements emerge.
17:44Just give me back the necklace.
17:49Yes, eh!
17:50And that's it!
17:52And then we make that disappear too
17:55and let's give away all that gold!
18:01During another interception,
18:04Monica Bucetto, talking to another woman,
18:08refers to other objects
18:11which were seized by the police.
18:14Let's listen to her.
18:18And excuse me, you know, but what do you think?
18:21They took away the slippers
18:23from the carpet.
18:25Aside from the fact that then
18:27the carpet wasn't there.
18:29Yes!
18:30After they give it back to me,
18:32I throw all that stuff away.
18:35But necessarily?
18:36I throw everything away.
18:38Rugs, mops, everything,
18:40bags, bags of the worlds.
18:43Can you explain the words better?
18:45by Mrs. Busetto
18:47and then on these objects
18:49that you have seized.
18:51What are you looking for?
18:53The reference is to the mat,
18:55to the confiscated slippers
18:58with a hypothesis of possibly
19:00find traces of DNA
19:02attributable precisely
19:04to Mrs. Lida Taffi Pamio.
19:06The scientific investigations
19:08they will give negative estido,
19:09but the important element
19:10that emerges from this conversation
19:12telephone
19:13is that Mrs. Busetto
19:14had changed
19:15the day of the murder
19:16that mat,
19:17then the seized mat
19:18January 22nd
19:20it certainly wasn't that
19:21of the day of the murder.
19:23And above all it emerges
19:24another important element,
19:26a particular familiarity
19:28by Mrs. Busetto
19:29with detergents
19:31and for cleaning in general.
19:33The track that leads
19:35Monica Busetto
19:36it is essentially circumstantial.
19:39The decisive proof is missing.
19:41And the objects
19:43that you have seized,
19:44the mop,
19:46the mat,
19:47the slippers,
19:48examined
19:48they don't give you
19:50useful results.
19:52There is left
19:52the necklace.
19:54Find out something
19:55from this gold chain?
19:58The broken necklace
20:00is transmitted
20:01to the laboratory
20:02of biological analysis
20:04of the Institute
20:04of Forensic Medicine
20:05of Padua.
20:08The two tamponades
20:10which are performed
20:12in the Institute
20:13of Forensic Medicine
20:14in Padua
20:14they are both negative.
20:16Absolutely negative
20:17it is not found
20:18no biological trace of any kind.
20:21At this point
20:23the find
20:24we evaluate
20:25to transmit it
20:26to the National Service
20:28of Scientific Police
20:29and it is precisely
20:30from the analysis
20:31he arrives
20:32a turning point
20:33decisive.
20:36It was tried
20:37to find
20:38those cells
20:39of the epithelium
20:40of the skin
20:41of the subject
20:42that he wears
20:43the little chain
20:43that can remain
20:46harnessed
20:47within
20:48of the shirt.
20:49DNA
20:50which has been extrapolated
20:51it's a DNA
20:52which is corresponding
20:53and therefore belongs
20:54to the lady
20:55Taffi Pamio
20:56that is, the victim
20:57of the murder
20:58we are talking about.
21:02That DNA
21:04of the victim
21:05found
21:05on the necklace
21:07it is the element
21:08decisive
21:08that convinces
21:09the investigators.
21:11For Monica Busetto
21:13January 30th
21:14of 2014
21:15they open
21:17the doors
21:18of the prison.
21:19The woman
21:20it is postponed
21:21on trial
21:22for murder
21:24voluntary.
21:26The report
21:28conflictual
21:28with the victim
21:29his aversion
21:30towards the elderly
21:31as much as needed
21:32for having armed
21:33with as many as four
21:34different knives
21:35the hand
21:35by Monica Busetto
21:3651 years old
21:37accused
21:38of having killed
21:39her neighbor
21:4087 years old.
21:42The crime
21:43Taffi Pamio
21:44it seems to be solved
21:46and end here
21:47but the defense
21:49he opposes
21:50about the modalities
21:52and the procedure
21:53with which they were
21:54carried out
21:55the exams
21:55on this chain.
21:59Us
22:00we have
22:01Always
22:02supported
22:03That
22:03the track
22:04which was
22:04was found
22:05from the toilet
22:06of the police
22:06scientific
22:07of Rome
22:08was a
22:08contamination.
22:11So
22:12for the defense
22:12there is the
22:13high risk
22:14that the chain
22:15have suffered
22:16a contamination
22:18own
22:19during the trip
22:21from Padua
22:22in Rome.
22:23it's a hypothesis
22:25plausible
22:26or
22:27simply
22:28a
22:29strategy
22:30defensive?
22:31It's a
22:32strategy
22:33defensive
22:33on the colony
22:35broken
22:35it was found
22:37exclusively
22:38epithelial DNA
22:39of the lady
22:40Taffi
22:40and not also
22:41traces
22:42of DNA
22:42of whoever held it
22:44by Mrs. Busetto
22:45or other people
22:46for which
22:47he was referring to
22:48to have had it
22:48as a gift
22:49or in possession
22:50or in use.
22:54With regard to
22:56the activities
22:56turning points
22:57from the moment
22:58in which
22:58it opens
22:59the package
22:59the container
23:00the envelope
23:01sealed
23:01and closed
23:02the little chain
23:02until now
23:04of the processing
23:04in the laboratory
23:05we have
23:07a system
23:07of traceability
23:10controlled
23:10with some controls
23:11to check
23:12any
23:13contaminations
23:14Therefore
23:14within
23:15of the service
23:15contamination
23:16there can't be any
23:17to have been.
23:21December 22nd
23:23of 2014
23:24Monica Busetto
23:26is sentenced
23:27for murder
23:28voluntary
23:29and she
23:30to have killed
23:31the poor
23:33Lida Taffi
23:34Pamio.
23:4024 years old
23:41and 3 months
23:42in prison
23:42the sentence
23:43that the court
23:43of assizes
23:44of Venice
23:44he inflicted
23:45to Monica Busetto
23:4652 years old
23:47of master
23:47recognized
23:48responsible
23:49of the murder
23:49of the neighbor
23:50at home
23:51Lida Taffi
23:52Pamio
23:5287 years old
23:53But in this story
23:56there is something
23:57that doesn't come back
23:58you had found
24:00in the apartment
24:02of the victim
24:04two tracks
24:06of DNA
24:08one was
24:10from the
24:11Taffi Pamio
24:13the other
24:14a drop
24:15of sweat
24:15next to
24:16on the tracks
24:17of blood
24:17of the victim
24:18era
24:19of another
24:20woman
24:21and this woman
24:22it wasn't
24:23the Busetto
24:23as he explains to me
24:26this element
24:28how he contextualizes it
24:30we have never
24:31excluding
24:32the presence
24:33of a second
24:34person
24:35on the scene
24:36of the crime
24:37Indeed
24:38that track
24:39of DNA
24:40mixed
24:40blood
24:42of the victim
24:43it's a DNA
24:44female
24:45which therefore
24:46interacted
24:47with the scene
24:48of the crime
24:49we compared it
24:51with all the people
24:52which in various capacities
24:53they attended
24:54Mrs. Lida
24:55from friends
24:56of the tombola
24:57from the lady
24:59of cleaning
24:59to arrive
25:00to the same suspect
25:01Monica Busetto
25:02but with outcome
25:03negative
25:04so a trace
25:05Surely
25:06which shows us
25:07a second woman
25:09who interacted
25:10was present
25:11on the scene
25:11of the crime
25:12and in fact
25:14this story
25:15it doesn't end here
25:25It's December 29th
25:27of 2015
25:28they have passed
25:30three years
25:30from death
25:31by Lida Taffipanio
25:32When
25:33always in Mestre
25:34is found
25:36the body
25:37of another woman
25:38killed
25:39she too
25:41she lived alone
25:42is called
25:43Francesca Vianello
25:44and he is 81 years old
25:48the murder
25:49by Francesca Vianello
25:50the 81-year-old
25:51found dead
25:52strangled
25:53with a little chord
25:54a couple of days ago
25:55in his home
25:56of Corso del Popolo in Mestre
26:01of this case
26:02he takes care of it
26:03Angela Lauretta
26:04which took over
26:05in place
26:06by Marco Dorisio
26:08as a manager
26:09of the mobile squad
26:10of Venice
26:11let's hear what he tells us
26:15from the first bars
26:17it is understood
26:19that the lady
26:20she was a victim
26:22of a brutal
26:22crime
26:23the door
26:24he introduces himself
26:25let's say
26:26closed
26:27but without any
26:28sent
26:29probably
26:30he opened
26:31Why
26:32there were none
26:33signs of forced entry
26:34at the crime scene
26:36is found
26:37a part
26:38of a buckle
26:39of a strap
26:40the lady
26:42it's still
26:42in clothing
26:44night
26:44Therefore
26:45likely
26:46he opened
26:47the house
26:48from the early hours
26:50in the morning
26:54it looks like another
26:55homocide
26:55inexplicable
26:57both women
26:58they lead
26:58a quiet life
27:00and both women
27:01they open the door
27:03to his own murderer
27:05but who was he?
27:06Francesca Vianello?
27:09Francesca
27:10he worked
27:11at the casino
27:11of Venice
27:12and from that
27:13that I remember
27:13he was watching
27:14Robiera
27:14but it's been a while
27:15who was retired
27:17and had looked after
27:19the mother
27:19for many years
27:20who lived with her
27:22it was a
27:23rather lady
27:25reserved
27:26he gave confidence
27:28to many people
27:30apparently
27:31it could seem
27:32even gruff
27:33because he was a guy
27:34rather
27:34serious
27:35but
27:36if you knew how to take it
27:38he had a heart of gold
27:40Therefore
27:40she was a beautiful person
27:45this time too
27:47as it happened
27:48for the crime
27:48of Taffitanio
27:49the police
27:51start investigating
27:52starting from
27:53condominiums of the building
27:55the police
27:57he started
27:57to question
27:58the whole condominium
27:59arrived at my mother's
28:01I went up
28:03because my mom
28:03she was old
28:04and my mom
28:06he told her
28:07what
28:08Francesca
28:10that day
28:11had to do
28:12practically
28:13precisely
28:14he told her
28:14which was supposed to be found
28:15with a lady
28:17that he owed her
28:18some money
28:18and that was
28:20quite insistent
28:21Also
28:22And
28:23my mom
28:24he had heard it
28:25a bit like this
28:27And
28:27and that therefore
28:28they would have seen each other
28:29later
28:31And
28:31and he had told her
28:32even the name
28:33and then
28:33he had told her
28:34that had to be found
28:35with this Millie
28:45the first clue
28:47so
28:47it's the nickname
28:48of a woman
28:49Millie
28:50but who is he?
28:51this Millie?
28:54there had been
28:55two precedents
28:56visits
28:57that this
28:58Lady
28:59that was coming
29:00indicated
29:01generically
29:02with the name
29:03by Millie
29:04he had done
29:06in the period
29:07Christmassy
29:08around the
29:0923-24
29:11December
29:12from the story
29:13of some neighbors
29:14and from the story
29:15even some friends
29:16emerge
29:17that the lady
29:17it remained
29:18very upset
29:19from these
29:20visits
29:22and also
29:23Why
29:23they were
29:24visits
29:25preparatory
29:26at the
29:26request
29:28of money
29:30Perhaps
29:31a
29:32debt
29:32of the murderer
29:33the movement
29:33of the murder
29:34of the old woman
29:35killed
29:36in Mestre
29:36he had done
29:37a loan
29:38to a friend of hers
29:40to a young woman
29:41which had to
29:42be
29:43Tuesday
29:44at 9
29:44and he had some
29:46finger
29:46the only one
29:47and to find
29:47Tomorrow
29:48to take me
29:49the money
29:52another element
29:54important
29:55is that
29:55from the bag
29:56of the lady
29:57of Ring
29:57he disappeared
29:58the wallet
29:59with inside
30:00the ATM
30:05the investigations
30:06they took place
30:07on two fronts
30:08contextual
30:09on one side
30:10the investigations
30:11banking
30:12and at the same time
30:13even the investigations
30:14telephones
30:15so let's see
30:15that there have been
30:16of the movements
30:18of money
30:19let it be the day
30:20of the murder
30:21is
30:22in a moment
30:23next
30:24really
30:24the next day
30:25on one side
30:26Therefore
30:26there are some pictures
30:28where the person
30:29what is he going to do
30:30the shopping
30:31with the ATM
30:32of the victim
30:33could be
30:34compatible
30:35with
30:36this lady
30:37Milli
30:41the tables
30:43telephones
30:43they give us
30:44a piece of information
30:45important
30:45the victim
30:46Therefore
30:46the lady
30:47of Ring
30:47he received
30:48almost with cadence
30:49weekly
30:50of phone calls
30:51from a user
30:53this user
30:53it was registered
30:55to
30:55Zampirollo
30:57Thomas
31:02but who is he?
31:03Thomas
31:03Zampirollo
31:04and then
31:05what does it have to do with it?
31:06with this woman
31:07who calls himself
31:08Milli
31:12on
31:14Facebook
31:15you realize
31:17That
31:17in a photo
31:18of the boy
31:19owner
31:20of this user
31:21his own mother
31:23it is indicated
31:23right with the name
31:24by Milli
31:25at this point
31:27go back to the photo
31:28by Milli
31:29it's easy
31:29because the mother
31:31by Thomas
31:32Zampirollo
31:33it's the same woman
31:34framed
31:35from the cameras
31:36of the ATM
31:38now that face
31:39has a name
31:40it's an identity
31:41Susanna
31:43Lazzarini
31:46all these elements
31:48induce the magistrate
31:50already in the evening
31:53New Year's Eve
31:54so of the 31st
31:55December 2015
31:57to issue
31:58a decree
31:59of search
32:00the search
32:02from still
32:03more elements
32:04it is in a way
32:05unequivocal
32:06it brings us back
32:07to the author
32:08of the crime
32:09Why
32:09Why
32:10within
32:11of the house
32:12by Mrs. Lazzarini
32:13we find
32:14the ATM
32:15of the victim
32:16we also find
32:18one more thing
32:19that is to say
32:19a clock
32:20which is devoid
32:21of the buckle
32:23which had been
32:25found
32:25on the scene
32:26of the crime
32:28Thomas Zampirollo
32:30it's the biggest
32:31of the children
32:31by Susanna Lazzarini
32:33my mother
32:34it had two phases
32:35initially
32:36a mother
32:36still loving
32:38he is a good person
32:40she was good to everyone
32:42well-liked
32:43then he had
32:44a declining phase
32:46after death
32:47of my father
32:49it was a shock
32:51quite heavy
32:52for her
32:52which was found
32:53with two children
32:54more or less small
32:58that night
32:59like all kids
33:00of his age
33:01Thomas is out
33:03with friends
33:03to celebrate
33:05New Year's Eve
33:06when at a certain point
33:08he arrives
33:09a phone call
33:10and someone
33:11he tells him
33:12to return
33:13immediately
33:14At home
33:19Thomas Zampirollo
33:21he will not forget
33:23never again
33:23that last day of the year
33:25it was December 31st
33:27of 2015
33:30I was informed
33:33that my mother
33:34was brought
33:36in front of the magistrate
33:37with the accusation
33:39of murder
33:40me at the moment
33:41Obviously
33:42I couldn't
33:43to understand
33:43to understand
33:44I looked
33:46my mother
33:46to ask
33:48What
33:48was happening
33:49and it made me understand
33:50that anyway
33:51it was her
33:53he threw me
33:54a look
33:55as if to ask
33:56Excuse me
33:56I made a mistake
33:59Susanna Lazzarini
34:01when she is questioned
34:02denies
34:02he also denies
34:03in front of
34:04to the evidence
34:05but then
34:06in the end
34:07gives in
34:07and it collapses
34:08and admits
34:10to know
34:11Francesca Vianello
34:16right in sight
34:17of the approach
34:18of the holidays
34:20Christmas
34:21the lady
34:22Mrs. Lazzarini
34:23decides to ask
34:24on loan
34:26some money
34:26and for this
34:28makes two visits
34:29at the
34:29Lady
34:31Vianello
34:32and then there is a fact
34:33she loves to play
34:35at the vending machines
34:36at the slot machines
34:37and that Christmas
34:40Christmas
34:40of 2015
34:41he doesn't have it in his pocket
34:43not even the money
34:44to buy
34:45a gift
34:46to their children
34:47a visit
34:48is accomplished
34:49December 23rd
34:50during which
34:52asks
34:53a loan
34:53of 300 euros
34:55receiving it
34:56Instead
34:56only 100
34:57the next day
34:59unexpectedly
35:00he introduces himself
35:01again
35:01with the excuse
35:02to want
35:03return
35:04this loan
35:05that day
35:07should have
35:07return
35:08the 100 euros
35:09but he doesn't have any
35:10no intention
35:11they started
35:13to discuss
35:14because the lady
35:15Vianello understood
35:16that the loan
35:17it wouldn't be
35:18been honored
35:20and it would have been
35:21angry
35:21so when
35:22the lady
35:23Lazzarini
35:24would have asked
35:25more money
35:26on the basis
35:27of this
35:27it would have been born
35:29a lit one
35:30discussion
35:33I heard
35:34a scream
35:34very strong
35:36as a help
35:37to ask
35:37a help
35:40the Lazzarini
35:41would have
35:42taken
35:43the bag
35:43almost to calm down
35:45the lady
35:45almost to make him
35:46to understand
35:46that was
35:47taking
35:47some money
35:48to return
35:49the loan
35:50who had
35:50received
35:51Instead
35:52in that bag
35:54she was holding
35:55a string
35:55and gloves
35:56with that string
35:57would have
35:58let's say
35:59killed
35:59the lady
36:04for Susanna
36:05Lazzarini
36:06they open
36:06the doors
36:07of the Giudecca
36:08the prison
36:09female
36:09of Venice
36:10the same
36:11in which
36:11since January
36:12of 2014
36:13she is locked up
36:14Also
36:15Monica Busetto
36:16two crimes
36:18similar
36:18and nebulous
36:19in the motivations
36:20in that
36:22by Francesca
36:22Vianello
36:23the motive
36:23they were
36:24a few pennies
36:25in case
36:26of Taffipamio
36:27in appearance
36:28just a little chain
36:30but in every
36:31yellow
36:31that respects itself
36:32the shots
36:33on stage
36:34I'm in the final
36:37was
36:38a colleague
36:39that by chance
36:40he notices
36:41that in common
36:43these two old ladies
36:43killed
36:44in a manner
36:44so brutal
36:45they have
36:46a friend
36:47a dear friend
36:48with whom they were found
36:49even often
36:50even to play
36:50at cards
36:51which coincidentally
36:52it's the lady
36:53Nymph Bellio
36:54this lady
36:55actually
36:56it's nothing else
36:57that the mother
36:58by Susanna
36:59Lazzarini
37:02so
37:03Nymph Bellio
37:05she is the mother
37:05by Susanna
37:07Lazzarini
37:08the woman
37:09who killed
37:10the Vianello
37:10and she's a friend
37:12so much
37:13of Taffipamio
37:14That
37:15of the Vianello
37:16precisely
37:17I ask you
37:19but it is possible
37:20that this
37:21let it be only
37:22a coincidence
37:23No
37:23it's not a coincidence
37:24because since
37:25from the beginning
37:26of the investigations
37:27we had highlighted
37:29that track
37:30of DNA
37:30of the feminine type
37:32Neighbor
37:32at the switch
37:33to which
37:34it hadn't been
37:35given a name
37:36had remained
37:37a point
37:37of question
37:38Therefore
37:39to the light
37:40of the second
37:41homocide
37:41is carried out
37:42the comparison
37:43of that DNA
37:45highlighted
37:46in the apartment
37:47of the lady
37:47Lida
37:47Taffipamio
37:48with that
37:49of Susanna
37:50Lazzarini
37:50what is the result?
37:53the result
37:54it's just that
37:54that DNA
37:55corresponds
37:56then place
37:56Susanna Lazzarini
37:58on the scene
37:59of the crime
38:00to the detriment
38:00of the Lida
38:01Taffipamio
38:08we've reached this point
38:10there's only one thing
38:11to do
38:11tighten the circle
38:13around
38:14Susanna Lazzarini
38:15and then
38:17a confession is needed
38:19but how
38:20get it?
38:22the investigators
38:23they convince
38:24his son
38:25Thomas
38:26to meet
38:27the mother
38:28in prison
38:29and in the room
38:32where the two
38:32they will meet
38:33they are arranged
38:36some bedbugs
38:37and there were
38:38many things
38:39what I was thinking
38:40at that moment
38:41I was thinking
38:41to the fact that
38:42Anyway
38:42we deserved
38:43a bit of everyone
38:44At home
38:45to know
38:45the truth
38:46and we deserved it
38:48Of
38:49to be
38:50a little more
38:50calm down
38:51in quotation marks
38:52of not having
38:53doubts
38:53not to continue
38:55to blancolare
38:56in the dark
38:56and think
38:57yes it was her
38:58no it wasn't her
38:59it could have been her
39:00and above all
39:02I thought
39:02to help her
39:04even if inside
39:05about me
39:05I felt
39:06as I think
39:07everyone
39:07they can feel
39:08a bit
39:10the spy
39:11of the situation
39:13the audio
39:14what are you doing
39:14to listen
39:15That's not it
39:16original
39:17but it is exactly
39:19the transcription
39:20of that
39:21that are said
39:22mother
39:23and son
39:24during this
39:26interview
39:26let's listen to it
39:53but there is
39:56a particular
39:57very important
39:58a piece of information
40:00that the son
40:01Thomas
40:01comes to know
40:03right in the course
40:05of this
40:05conversation
40:07of this meeting
40:08his mother
40:09for a few days now
40:10he's in jail
40:12with a woman
40:13and you know
40:14Who is this woman?
40:16Monica Busetto
40:17he put me in the room
40:19with me
40:20eh
40:21I'm in the room
40:23with me
40:23Now
40:26with me
40:28Yes
40:28Why
40:29he transferred me
40:30what do I know
40:30here Busetto
40:32you're in your room
40:33you're not there
40:34to speak
40:35not at all
40:35that
40:36we are friends
40:37Meaning what
40:39we are friends
40:44Susanna
40:45Susanna Lazzarini
40:46and Monica Busetto
40:47I'm in jail
40:48Together
40:49and from the words
40:50of Lazzarini
40:51let's find out
40:52who are friends
40:53but they have become
40:55friends
40:56in prison
40:56or they already were
40:58but let's go back
41:00to that interception
41:02of February 24th
41:04his son
41:06Thomas
41:06he wants to arrive
41:08to the truth
41:10and continues
41:11with insistence
41:12to ask questions
41:13to his mother
41:14after a while
41:16of times
41:16who denied
41:18he said
41:18No
41:18it wasn't me
41:20I didn't do anything
41:20they want to blame me
41:22of this too
41:23Then
41:23I'm leveraging
41:25on the fact of
41:26probably
41:27do it for the family
41:28do it for your children
41:29because it's right
41:30that we know
41:31the truth
41:32then you
41:32he confessed
41:37what you are
41:38to listen
41:39it's time
41:41most important
41:42of all
41:43the investigation
41:44it's a moment
41:45dramatic
41:46above all
41:47for the son
41:48by Susanna Lazzarini
41:50for Thomas
41:51the question
41:52what are you doing?
41:52when they happen
41:53these things here
41:54it's the first
41:55this is it here
41:55who is that person
41:57I lived
41:58with this person
41:59all this time
42:00and I didn't know
42:01who he was
42:01let's hear this interception
42:05I can't, mom
42:07I can't understand
42:08as that can help you
42:09to have held
42:10all a weight
42:11so big
42:12for three years
42:13I still can't understand
42:15if you have been to you
42:16it's the problem
42:18it's the problem
42:19And
42:20there is strangulation
42:22Also
42:22I know
42:24but you are
42:25of that little bus
42:27you never know
42:28my little bus
42:30you're alone
42:31I was already alone
42:32that day
42:33I was alone
42:35Susanna Lazzarini
42:36after the meeting
42:37with his son
42:38even in front
42:40to the investigators
42:41confess
42:43confess
42:43the crime
42:44he says it was
42:45she to kill
42:46Lida Taffipanio
42:48not only
42:49what he did
42:50all by myself
42:51and that
42:52Monica Busetto
42:53she
42:54he didn't know her
42:55Well
42:56in the moment
42:56in which we
42:57we learned
42:58That
42:58Susanna Lazzarini
43:00he had confessed
43:01the other crime
43:02we said
43:02At that time
43:03in prison
43:04there is an innocent
43:05so much so that
43:06Indeed
43:07she was released from prison
43:08but it didn't last long
43:09it lasted six months
43:10this freedom
43:11by Monica Busetto
43:12That
43:13it's worth it
43:14to underline
43:16she has always been
43:17proclaimed innocent
43:19and still
43:20continue to
43:21to proclaim oneself
43:21innocent
43:25you are never
43:26state
43:26of a person
43:27that they have for me
43:27accused
43:28never
43:31never
43:34he has me
43:35due
43:35life
43:40and mine
43:41family
43:43the confession
43:45by Susanna
43:46Lazzarini
43:47it seems
43:47to exonerate
43:48Monica Busetto
43:49the investigators
43:51but
43:51they are not
43:52of this notice
43:53and they want
43:54to try
43:55another one
43:56paper
43:56they put
43:57some bedbugs
43:58in the cell
44:00Where
44:00I am
44:01Susanna Lazzarini
44:03and Monica Busetto
44:04from the recordings
44:06there are few
44:07dialogues
44:08which result
44:09clear
44:10so in fact
44:11the positioning
44:12of these bugs
44:14it helps little
44:15the investigators
44:16the difference
44:17they do it
44:18the depositions
44:19of the inmates
44:20of the companions
44:21of cell
44:22which they report
44:23of the details
44:25very interesting
44:27about these meetings
44:28and these agreements
44:29who intervened
44:31between the two women
44:32and they would have
44:33started
44:34to share
44:35the responsibility
44:36right away
44:37with
44:38the total
44:39neck
44:40of responsibility
44:41in charge
44:42Susanna Lazzarini
44:43which in fact
44:45was held responsible
44:46already of another
44:47homocide
44:48and the correspondence
44:49of money
44:50by
44:50by Mrs. Busetto
44:51to help
44:52the children
44:53that Mrs. Lazzarini
44:54At home
44:55he had left
44:56in difficulty
44:57economic
44:58important
45:00the Lazzarini
45:02is put
45:02in a tight spot
45:03the investigators
45:05they tell her
45:06that they discovered
45:07All
45:07at that point
45:09she breaks
45:11the pact
45:11after a comparison
45:13with some inmates
45:16including some companions
45:18of cell
45:19edit
45:20the version
45:21to the investigators
45:23reporting
45:24of having committed
45:25the violent crime
45:27in competition
45:28with Mrs. Busetto
45:30but at first
45:31threatened
45:32from the same
45:36So Susanna Lazzarini
45:37he wouldn't have done it
45:38the name
45:39by Monica Busetto
45:40in exchange
45:41of a lot of money
45:42but then
45:43change version
45:44and says that
45:45Monica Busetto
45:46she is the murderer
45:48by Lida
45:48Taffi Pamio
45:50she was present
45:52he just helped her
45:54because under threat
45:56she had happened
45:57there by chance
45:58he saw
45:59that the door
45:59it was ajar
46:00and surprises
46:01Monica Busetto
46:02dressed as a surgeon
46:03with gloves
46:04that was happening
46:06that was
46:07to kill
46:08this woman
46:10and she
46:11terrified
46:12why he came
46:13threatened
46:13of death
46:15if he didn't help her
46:16At that time
46:17he helped her
46:18the investigators
46:19they don't believe her
46:20and at that point
46:21Susanna Lazzarini
46:23change
46:23new version
46:25Mrs. Lazzarini
46:26in the latest version
46:28which makes
46:28to the investigators
46:29reports
46:30that really
46:31on the occasion
46:31of the noise
46:32of the fact
46:33that the old woman
46:34he fell to the ground
46:35that there was
46:36a bit
46:36of commotion
46:37in the apartment
46:39these noises
46:40they attracted
46:42attention
46:43of the neighbor
46:44which therefore
46:45within
46:47and he found himself
46:47in the apartment
46:49in front of
46:49to the scene
46:50of the lady
46:51Lazzarini
46:52that is hitting
46:53with violence
46:54ever greater
46:55the old woman
46:56between the two
46:57it was triggered
46:58a minimum
46:59of dialogue
47:00two people
47:01that they would not have been
47:01never seen before
47:02they would have started
47:03to speak
47:03freely
47:04while one
47:05he was killing
47:05a third person
47:06saying
47:07but who are you?
47:08oh yes
47:08I know who you are
47:08if the neighbor
47:09Yes
47:09I know you are
47:10you are the daughter
47:11of those
47:11that come
47:12to play
47:12at bingo
47:13Mrs. Busetto
47:15he would have reported
47:15to have it
47:16she too
47:17with the old lady
47:18victim
47:19as
47:19this old lady
47:20would have put
47:21around
47:22for the city
47:23some strange voices
47:24on the same
47:26giving her
47:28of the person
47:28not caring
47:30of hygiene
47:31to have
47:32of trends
47:32sexual
47:33of a certain type
47:34and then
47:35this neighbor
47:36in fact
47:36demonstrates
47:37to say
47:38of the lady
47:38Lazzarini
47:39to have
47:40of hatred
47:40towards
47:41of the old woman
47:42and then
47:42to want
47:42collaborate
47:43in action
47:44violent
47:45to kill her
47:47from some versions
47:49that I am
47:50hallucinating
47:51incredible
47:52from the point of view
47:53human
47:54Why
47:55I repeat
47:55we are talking
47:56of two people
47:56that not only
47:58they didn't know each other
47:59that they had not
48:00never seen before
48:05but the two women
48:06they knew each other
48:07throughout the period
48:09in which
48:10we have done
48:11the investigations
48:12and therefore also
48:12the activity
48:12of interception
48:13and even before
48:14with the acquisition
48:15of traffic
48:17of the table
48:18we don't have
48:19found
48:20found contacts
48:21between the two women
48:26Monica Buseto
48:27is serving
48:27Now
48:28the penalty
48:2824 years old
48:29and 6 months
48:30in prison
48:30of Verona
48:32we presented
48:33appeal
48:34to the European Court
48:34for rights
48:35of man
48:39at this point
48:40to solve
48:42the dilemma
48:43the two
48:44they knew us
48:45a relationship
48:46or less
48:47we have
48:49addressed
48:49this question
48:50to one
48:51psychiatrist
48:52to a criminologist
48:53which
48:54he makes a reflection
48:55extremely interesting
48:58we hear
48:59what he says
49:01let's assume
49:02like the sentence
49:03he certified
49:04which was
49:04a crime
49:04four-handed
49:05we have to hypothesize
49:07that between the two women
49:08there was a relationship
49:09it's not possible
49:11that they didn't know each other
49:12it's very difficult
49:13it's almost unlikely
49:14that this thing
49:15happened
49:16by chance
49:16because someone was passing by
49:17over there
49:17or the door was open
49:19we might think
49:20Instead
49:20a relationship
49:23perverse
49:24the one that
49:24in the sense
49:26psychiatric
49:26it defines itself
49:27madness for two
49:28in this case
49:29it's a deviance
49:31two
49:31it happens that
49:33from the documents
49:33we get
49:34that I abuse it
49:35for the first two years
49:37does not quote
49:38not even remotely
49:39the presence
49:39of another person
49:40and when
49:41the Lazzarini
49:42declares
49:43to be
49:44responsible
49:44of the first
49:45excludes
49:46a priori
49:46to know
49:48really
49:49the abuse
49:49so this
49:50it's a point
49:51of question
49:53what he thinks
49:54of that
49:55what does he say?
49:56you to supervise
49:58two people
49:59they were
50:00on the scene
50:00of the crime
50:01they interacted
50:02with the victim
50:03with the lady
50:04Taffi Pamio
50:05the lack
50:07of contacts
50:08telephones
50:09can induce
50:10to believe
50:11that is not
50:11they knew
50:12does not exclude
50:12but
50:13that they could be
50:13equally
50:14know
50:14or attend
50:16Doctor Odorizio
50:17of this investigation
50:19what is left for her?
50:21It remains
50:22the bitterness
50:23also because
50:24there is that one
50:24identification
50:25in these two
50:26elderly ladies
50:27let's review
50:28our mothers
50:28they were two ladies
50:30that they had
50:31still want
50:31to live
50:32they had their own
50:33sociality
50:33and it wasn't fair
50:35and it wasn't fair
50:36that they are dead
50:37in this way
50:38thank you
50:41thanks to her
50:50Thank you all
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