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00:00It is our pleasure to welcome Mike Vaccaro to the show, longtime columnist at the New York Post.
00:06And apologies for this, if this is, you know, maybe embarrassing to me.
00:12I did not, I've known your work for many years, but I didn't know you were a Bona guy.
00:17And Bulldog helped set this up and like, yeah, he's in town, Mike McDonald.
00:21We know Mike, Mike from many years ago.
00:24So great occasion for you to be here at your alma mater and the announcement of the new coach.
00:30Yeah, it really was, guys.
00:31Look, I mean, I've known, literally known Mike McDonald for my first day at Bonaventure.
00:35He was like the third guy that I met my first day freshman year.
00:38Wow.
00:39I wandered into the, I wandered into the Butler gym and he was there shooting, shooting some hoops.
00:43And that's how I met him.
00:44And that was only about 41 years ago or so.
00:48It's annoying how young he looks.
00:50It really is.
00:51It drives you crazy, right?
00:52I mean, you know, he looked 12 when I knew him then.
00:57I think now he looks 15.
01:00And so, you know, that's when people have told me, oh, I'm not Michael McDonald.
01:04A little bit long in the tooth.
01:05I'm like, well, maybe.
01:06But no, no, he's not.
01:07He's literally the youngest man of that age that I know.
01:10And I think he's going to do a great job.
01:12I think he was an inspired hire.
01:14You know, I don't have to repeat his resume.
01:16What he did at Damon and, you know, what he did at Medai.
01:20And, you know, he had some great years at Canisius also.
01:22So, you know, I'm looking forward to it.
01:24I think he was exactly the right guy at the right time.
01:26And I can't wait to see what happens.
01:28I really can.
01:28Yeah, that sounds fantastic.
01:30Have you had a good visit so far?
01:33Yeah, it was terrific.
01:34I believe it or not, I'm actually back home.
01:35I was up and back in about a day and a half.
01:38But I got a lot accomplished yesterday.
01:39I went to the press conference.
01:41You know, it was a wonderful confluence of events.
01:43And then I had a book event on campus.
01:45And then I had a book event in town.
01:48And now I'm back trying to do my day job.
01:51Every now and again, I've got to remember that I have to put my mortgage also.
01:55So I have to write about the Knicks tonight.
01:57But that's good.
01:58It's all good.
01:59It's good to be busy.
02:00It beats the alternatives, right?
02:01Yeah, right.
02:02Well, we're excited to talk to you about your new book, The Bosses of the Bronx.
02:06And I was wondering where to start with this.
02:10You know, you tend to want to start at the beginning.
02:12And I recently, Mike, becoming somewhat of a Watergate buff, learned how George Steinbrenner
02:18was infamous, if that's not too strong a word, before he owned the Yankees.
02:23I mean, I was a little kid when he was the boss at that point.
02:27But watching the, I think it was Peacock, the special, the documentary, Joel Sherman's
02:32in it on the Yankees.
02:34There's a shot from Billy Martin's funeral.
02:36And it's Steinbrenner, Mantle, and Nixon sitting together at the funeral.
02:42It sure was.
02:43I mean, Nixon famously told Billy Martin Jr., who was very upset, of course, that day,
02:49to look out at the crowds outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral.
02:53And of course, they filled St. Patrick's Cathedral.
02:55And there were thousands of people outside.
02:57And he said, look at how many people loved your father.
03:00And of course, Billy Martin Jr. still talks about that moment.
03:03And, you know, that's not possible if not for the friendship between Nixon and Steinbrenner.
03:08Yeah, right.
03:08I really like the early, like the, because, you know, I'm eight years old, I think, when
03:13he buys the Yankees.
03:14So, you know, like any sports fan that paid any attention to baseball, I soon got to know
03:20all about him and, you know, all of the stuff that is detailed in the book and has been
03:25written about and talked about for decades here.
03:27Just the personalities that were there.
03:30Well, I loved the very beginning, like the backstory on him getting involved and how like
03:35the front person at the initial news conference at the restaurant is like, doesn't know how
03:40quickly he's going to be pushed aside.
03:42And I had no idea.
03:44I forget the gentleman's name now.
03:45Is it Mitchell?
03:46I can't remember the name.
03:47Doesn't, you can tell us.
03:49But I just had no idea about that.
03:51Like, here's this guy thinks he's going to be the front person for this new group.
03:54And like, within days, Steinbrenner had already like, just get out of here.
03:59Yeah, it really was that way.
04:00Michael Burke was the guy's name.
04:02It was funny.
04:02He was kind of the face of CBS when CBS owned the team.
04:05And it wasn't a very good tenureship for CBS, to say the least.
04:10But he put together, helped put together the group that was including Steinbrenner.
04:14And, you know, in Burke's idea was that, you know, he was going to be the guy running
04:19things and Steinbrenner was going to be the silent partner back in Cleveland.
04:22And, of course, that's what Steinbrenner said on day one, too, which turned out to be,
04:26I don't know, either the biggest lie in sports history or the biggest irony in sports history
04:30because he was anything but an absentee owner.
04:33But, look, you know, the Yankees had one foot out the door when Steinbrenner re-fought the team.
04:38They were, you know, either going to New Jersey, New Orleans was trying to get involved
04:43because they were building a Superdome.
04:45And it was a real rough time around the Yankees.
04:48The ballpark was falling down.
04:51And the reason why Steinbrenner got the team, you know, without the highest bid
04:56was he promised William Paley, the CBS chairman, that he wouldn't leave New York
05:01and follow the Giants to New Jersey.
05:03And Paley bought that.
05:05Paley already knew he was going to go down as the guy who helped sideways.
05:09The Yankees got to go sideways.
05:11He didn't want to be known as the guy that allowed him to leave town.
05:13And, guys, it's funny.
05:15There's actually a part that didn't make the book.
05:17It didn't make the final cut but would be interesting to you is that, you know,
05:21around here January 3rd is almost a national holiday because that's when the Steinbrenner
05:25brought the team and it was kind of a surprise.
05:28But a couple of days before that, as legend has it, you know, he was a regular at the round
05:33table,
05:33the old big restaurant and bar in Buffalo.
05:35Okay.
05:37Touchshore Buffalo.
05:38And word is that he was telling some of his cronies in the bar, he was in there by the
05:42Yankees,
05:42but, of course, they all dismissed him.
05:43You know, the kind of lies that men tell in bars, right?
05:46Yeah.
05:46But all of a sudden, three days later, they were on the podium talking about the Yankees.
05:50So, George always had a great affinity for Buffalo, but he had a big, he had a greater affinity
05:55for George Steinbrenner.
05:56He loved the idea of Steinbrenner owning the Yankees.
05:59And he lived it with gusto for 37 years to follow.
06:02Steinbrenner was a Cleveland guy.
06:04So, maybe he felt, you know, Buffalo might have felt like home to him in some sort of
06:08certain way.
06:08We feel that way about Cleveland a little bit, kind of like going through, not quite sports
06:14hell, Bulldog, that's too strong, but in the last 40, 50 years, you know, they're kind
06:19of our cousins.
06:21I felt attached to them when LeBron finally got them an NBA title.
06:24I know that, like, I felt like, I can feel you people.
06:26I feel like I am you people.
06:28So, yeah, you were happy about that.
06:29Yeah, I mean, I think there's a Rust Belt brotherhood there, but, you know, it's funny.
06:33He actually spent a lot of time in Buffalo when he was a shipbuilder because it was one
06:39of the Steinbrenner family ships that pretty much helped take down the Michigan Avenue
06:42Bridge in 1959.
06:44So, he had to be back in town a lot for, you know, various lawsuits and so forth.
06:48And, you know, that's the reason why he got involved in the roundtable because he always
06:52wanted a place like, you know, he fastened himself a guy who'd go to Toots Shore, for
06:55instance, a big bar in New York, and get a table.
06:57And, of course, he was never able to do that, but he could certainly do it in Buffalo where
07:00he was a presence and he was known.
07:03So, that was kind of what he did.
07:05Interesting.
07:05Mike Vaccaro with us.
07:07The book is called The Bosses of the Bronx.
07:09Mike Shope and the Bulldog here on WGR.
07:11One of my favorite stories in the book is the first one where you talk about an interaction
07:16which was early in your relationship with him when he calls you.
07:19It's 3 o'clock, 3.30 in the morning on the West Coast.
07:22And, like, you wanted to talk to me.
07:23Here's your chance.
07:24And how you held your own in that conversation.
07:26Curious for how you, you know, sort of remember that.
07:28And then, from that, Mike, and the days forward, not that this is necessarily easy to do, but
07:35to try to put him in perspective.
07:37I mean, I'm not sure who in sports now really is that similar to Steinbrenner.
07:42It seems like maybe, you know, not like that anymore.
07:46He's a one-of-one guy.
07:47He really is.
07:48I mean, look, there have been other high-profile owners, you know.
07:51I mean, Jerry Jones, obviously, says a lot of silly things.
07:54And Mark Cuban used to give press conferences from his exercise bike and all that stuff.
07:57But, I mean, you know, the guy who was probably closest to him was Al Davis.
08:02He was also a friend of Steinbrenner's.
08:03They were both born on the same day, July the 4th, and it was a year apart.
08:07Al Davis was a year older.
08:08And it's interesting because that's actually the reason why I was trying to reach out to Steinbrenner
08:12and the story you're talking about.
08:14Now, I talked to George a bunch when I was in the New York Star-Ledger because he was involved
08:17in the Nets and the Devils also.
08:18They had a brief merger.
08:21So I was around him in group settings and stuff.
08:22But once I got the job in the post, I realized, you know, it's time to really develop a relationship
08:27with this guy.
08:27And it's always kind of a rite of passage, or it was, for a lot of guys who showed up
08:32in New York and wanted to cover baseball, wanted to cover the Yankees, and it was getting
08:35George on the phone.
08:36And it was always a challenge the first time because, you know, he would pick and choose
08:40who he wanted to.
08:40He wanted to call and call back.
08:42And so I was trying to pursue George for a while to do a story about his friendship with
08:45Davis.
08:46I was at the Super Bowl when the Raiders were playing the Chargers, we were playing
08:50the Buccaneers, I rather, in San Diego.
08:53And yeah, 3.37 in the morning, my phone rings.
08:55And of course, before you answer the phone, you're wondering who's dead or is my house
08:58burning down?
08:59Because we're also getting a call at that time in the morning.
09:02And it was Steinbrenner.
09:03And he said, you sound like you've been sleeping.
09:05And I said, well, I have, but George is 3.30 in the morning.
09:08And he said, no, I'm not here at 6.30 in Tampa.
09:10It's beautiful and sunny.
09:11I'm going to work.
09:11What do you want?
09:13And of course, you know, that's part of the beauty about Steinbrenner, right?
09:17I just tried to make it, give you a Steinbrenner impression.
09:19But that wasn't the real Steinbrenner voice.
09:20That was the Larry David Steinbrenner voice, which everybody really knows, right?
09:24Or at least my attention to the Larry David Steinbrenner voice.
09:27But, you know, and so that alone tells you what kind of a guy he was.
09:31I mean, you know, he was a spinning top from the moment he woke up every day of his life
09:35because he had a million ideas.
09:37And, you know, the perspective that I would bring to the book is, I mean, I've been asked
09:41a lot, why did you write about Steinbrenner?
09:42There's been a million words written about Steinbrenner.
09:44He's had a couple of, you know, really complete biographies written.
09:47And honestly, I deal with a lot of Yankees, younger Yankees fans, readers, people I just
09:52talk baseball with.
09:53And a lot of them, you know, anybody who's under the age of 35, 40, they don't remember
09:57the George who was, you know, who was, you know, a little bit crazy and a lot controversial,
10:02very flamboyant in the 70s and the 80s who was an everyday presence in New York baseball
10:08existence.
10:09They don't remember the older guy who would show up at the 80s stadium and get cheered.
10:12They don't remember the guy who would show up at the same building 10 years earlier and
10:15get booed and his name would be chanted with one imprintable name before or one imprintable
10:20name after it.
10:21And, you know, it was a challenge to me to kind of introduce these generations of people
10:26to what Steinbrenner was, you know.
10:28And I think even guys of our generation, guys, I think we're about the same age, a lot
10:33of times these guys use selective amnesia because what they prefer to remember is the
10:37Steinbrenner at the end and not the Steinbrenner who drove him to drink in the 70s and 80s,
10:42which he did a lot of the time.
10:43You know, one of the things I enjoyed thinking about that sprang from, you know, breezing through
10:49the book, Mike, is that so many of the stories are so familiar to me, you know, as a Red
10:56Sox
10:57fan and, you know, even in Buffalo, there's plenty of Yankee fans here.
11:01And I think we tend to think like one thought I had was to wonder what the Yankee, all the
11:07drama with Reggie and Billy Martin and George, of course, would have been like in like nowadays
11:13with the viral videos and TikTok and Twitter and all the stuff.
11:17But it strikes me like in Buffalo, New York, I mean, I didn't know every detail.
11:21That's what your book is for and others like it.
11:24But I knew all those stories weren't viral enough.
11:26Like I knew it from the newspaper and from watching, you know, the game of the week.
11:31Yeah, absolutely.
11:32And that's what I wanted to do.
11:33I realized that a lot of people would know that, you know, the stories, you know, the
11:36famous ones, a born liar, the others, convicted story.
11:38And I'm the story to drink.
11:40But there was a challenge to me to try and kind of just find some more stories behind those
11:44stories.
11:44And when you try and make it a George-specific version of those stories, you know, that allows
11:49you to really find different aspects of that story.
11:51And that's kind of what I was really looking to do.
11:53And, you know, I think that's what I, you know, what I ultimately was able to pull off,
11:56I hope.
11:57But yeah, look, I mean, there's two things about that, too.
12:00I mean, people ask, what would George do in an age of Twitter?
12:03And my answer is, you know, take a look at what the president does.
12:06He's on social media an awful lot.
12:08And I think George would be on 10 times as much because he would love the idea that he could
12:12get his message across faster, quicker, and not have to worry, not to rely on guys like
12:17me to get it done.
12:18You know, that's genuinely how I think that he would have responded to being in this kind
12:23of age where it's instant gratification, instant messaging.
12:27Yeah, it feels like maybe George Steinbrenner's Twitter feed would be like drinking out of
12:30a fire hose.
12:31It would be just constant.
12:34It wouldn't surprise me if George one of these days, you know, jumped onto a table in a parking
12:38lot somewhere, you know, because he was a football guy and he had football in his blood.
12:42And like I told you before, he had a real affinity for Buffalo.
12:45And so I know that he'd probably be delighted by what's come to pass with the Bills becoming
12:49so good the last couple of years.
12:51And, you know, he really kind of, you know, not always for the good.
12:54I mean, I think part of the problem with baseball today is a lot of baseball fans look at it
12:57like a football game.
12:58And you just, you know, you can stress over 17 football games.
13:01You try and do that over 162 baseball games, you're going to drive yourself crazy.
13:05And that's what George did.
13:07I mean, he dreamed of the 162-0 season.
13:10That was, of course, never going to happen, but that didn't mean he couldn't want one.
13:14Right.
13:14With Mike Vaccaro for a few more minutes here on WGR, the most incredible phase or section
13:22of Steinbrenner's years as the Yankee owner for me is the Winfield stuff.
13:27I mean, to Bulldog's point about what we kind of know about him or knew about him,
13:31growing up, Reggie Jackson, feuding with Reggie, feuding with Billy Martin, firing him and
13:36hiring him over again every five times.
13:38I mean, that stuff is more common knowledge.
13:41From that documentary and your book, like the Winfield stuff is just completely surreal.
13:46You mentioned the Bills indirectly.
13:48Terry Pagula, who is absolutely not interested in the spotlight, like he is the opposite.
13:54They have a press conference after Sean McDermott is fired.
13:57And for 2026, Pagula, we kind of thought, really stepped in it, talking about Bill's
14:03player, Keon Coleman.
14:04Like, no, no, no.
14:05The coaches wanted him.
14:07And just like that, that's maybe this generation's version of something bordering on incredible
14:13for an owner to say.
14:14But, Mike, I mean, you could go on forever about Steinbrenner and Winfield, I think.
14:21Having an owner just so brazenly, openly critical of a star player on his own team.
14:27It'd be like if Pagula just had signs in the suite every week, you know, fire Keon Coleman
14:33or something like that.
14:34It's just like hard to believe, Winfield.
14:37Guys, you nailed it.
14:38Really, that's a great story to bring up.
14:40Because if you want to really illustrate just what it was like, what Steinbrenner was
14:44like, think about this.
14:46So I was asked by somebody not long ago, like I think we went on campus yesterday, and they
14:50said, you know, refresh my memory.
14:52Why didn't you get suspended the second time?
14:53It was, didn't you hire a private eye or something to dig up dirt on Winfield?
14:57And I laughed, and I said, all right, think about that, and think about how crazy that
15:01would be.
15:02Now let me tell you what really happened.
15:04It wasn't a private eye.
15:05It was a guy out of a Damon Runyon play named Howie Spira, who basically owed his life to
15:09the five families of the New York mob, who was desperate for money, and who basically
15:14gave George, you know, information for $40,000.
15:17This is who George Steinbrenner used, by the way, to ruin his best player, to blackmail
15:21his best player.
15:23It's insane.
15:24It literally, it's literally insane.
15:26That's what it was.
15:27So the crazy story you thought it was is actually 10 times nuttier, and that's exactly how it
15:32happened.
15:32I mean, a lot of times I had to read this stuff two and three times over, because I just
15:35couldn't
15:35believe this.
15:36This can't be true, but it was exactly true.
15:38It was 100% real.
15:39And to me, that's why there's really nobody else to compare.
15:42Look, you know, you talked about the Pagoula incident, right?
15:44I mean, that's probably considered, oh my God, that's a day that the Bills almost had
15:47a complete meltdown, because the owner said something off the grid a little bit.
15:53That was a Tuesday around the night.
15:54It was a Steinbrenner.
15:55Yeah.
15:56You know, that was Tuesday, and on Wednesday, there was something even crazier, and on Thursday,
16:00you know, you probably wouldn't even know how to put it into words.
16:03That's honestly what life of George was like.
16:05And the only thing I regret, guys, is that I'm too young to have actually been around
16:09for apex doors.
16:10Look, the version of George I got was heading toward the one that became more beloved, you
16:14know, that was starting to win.
16:15And, you know, winning is such a great deodorizer, right?
16:18I mean, you know, as long as you win, nobody cares about the owner when they win.
16:22They only want to complain about the owner is when they lose.
16:26They're looking for scapegoats, and everybody then says the owner doesn't care enough.
16:29They don't care enough about it, as I do.
16:31But, look, that's one thing that the Yankee fans never wondered about George Steinbrenner.
16:34He sometimes cared too much.
16:36Yeah.
16:38You know, you weren't there for the early stuff, like you just said.
16:41I wonder, like, have you thought at all – we've kind of covered it, I guess – whether
16:46or not someone with that kind of personality could fly in today's sports world.
16:52I don't think so, only because, you know what, it's just everything – people are so
16:59cautious now because they're raised that way.
17:01You know, George was able to be himself because that's how he was in his business dealings.
17:06It's how he was as a baseball owner.
17:08I mean, right now, like, you know, House Steinbrenner basically, you know, he's our age.
17:11He's come of age at a time when you know enough to be cautious, especially if you have a famous
17:16face and a famous last name.
17:18You know, you just never know who's got a camera pointed at you.
17:21You never know who's got a live mic somewhere.
17:23And, you know, that could be the difference between, you know, between having a successful
17:29time as an owner and then one, you know, on page six and not page one in the vernacular
17:35of the New York Post.
17:36And so I think people are just – because of that, they're just so overly cautious now.
17:39You're not allowed to really express yourself in ways that Steinbrenner does.
17:44And look, even somebody like Jerry Jones who doesn't seem bothered by it, you know, the
17:47fact of the matter is if you're not going to win once every 30 years, no one's really
17:50going to care what you have to say about it.
17:52You're just going to be a silly old man rambling, you know, rambling in clouds.
17:55And that's kind of where Jerry Jones is.
17:57So, you know, just a very unique personality at a very unique time.
18:00And look, I know – I know especially people in Buffalo will arise when people in New York
18:05talk about stuff like this, but it's different in New York because, you know, you have the
18:09tabloids and you have the back pages, and they were always at war in those days.
18:13So it was always going to be in the news, and that's just a unique situation, you know?
18:18Like Al Davis, I think if Al Davis had ever owned the Jets or the Giants,
18:20he might have been similar to George in that regard because he would have the back pages
18:24he used as an ally or an enemy, and he didn't have that in Oakland or in L.A.
18:28where he was.
18:29There just aren't back pages there, you know?
18:31It's a very unique element to New York, and George knew how to play those both back pages
18:35like a Stradivarius.
18:37Mike, last thing before you go.
18:38The title is The Bosses of the Bronx, plural.
18:42Hal Steinbrenner, his legacy is tracking toward what?
18:44Yankee fans complain about not spending enough, and, you know, maybe your point about,
18:49as a compliment, knowing to stay out of the spotlight isn't everybody's favorite, you know,
18:55thing about an owner, especially a Steinbrenner.
18:58So, I don't know.
18:59What's your opinion of how Yankee fans perceive him and where it's going?
19:03Look, every time the Yankees go on a couple games, they've lost two in a row.
19:06I guarantee you, when I hang in with you guys and go on my phone, they'll be three Yankee fans
19:10wanting to buy a boom, buy a cashman, want Hal to sell the team.
19:14And he understands that that's out there.
19:17He understands people think, well, what did my father do?
19:19He's never thought of being George's son as a burden.
19:22He always calls it a privilege.
19:23He thinks it's an acidic duty for the Steinbrenner family to make the Yankees a competitive team
19:28every year.
19:28And all that stuff is true.
19:30But the fact of the matter is that fans only care about winning and losing.
19:34And the Yankees fans, you can call them spoiled, but the reason why they're spoiled
19:37is because they have a mission statement about winning a championship or bust.
19:41And guess who wrote that mission statement?
19:42It was George Steinbrenner.
19:43So, you know, Hal can't exactly complain about that because that's what he inherited.
19:48That's what he has.
19:50But the thing of it is, I mean, look, his dad didn't have to go up against the
19:55limitless pockets of the Dodgers or the Blue Jays or even in his own city.
19:59You know, Steve Cohen, you know, is a one-man show, but he's got $23, $24 billion of his
20:04own money.
20:05You know, Hal doesn't have that.
20:06The Yankees are the whole don't have that.
20:08And, you know, when George was building the Yankees as the dominant team in town over the
20:12Mets, the Mets had an owner in Linda DeRoulet who would, you know, ask why they couldn't
20:16throw the foul balls back so they could watch them and use them tomorrow.
20:20You know, the Mets had to complain about Steve Cohen, but he's not doing that.
20:23And that's what Hal has to deal with every day.
20:25And George just didn't have to do that.
20:27And I think that's a big difference also.
20:28Yeah.
20:29I have one Yankee fan friend who lives in the tri-state.
20:33He is unbelievable with, I mean, to Mike's point about messages on his phone, this guy,
20:39I mean, I see him once a year for a fantasy draft in Philadelphia.
20:43I don't know anybody like him.
20:45Everything is the worst.
20:47Yeah.
20:48Everything is the worst.
20:48Always.
20:50It's hilarious because, you know, Yankee fans down here usually have friends who are
20:53Mets fans too.
20:54And I've always wanted to ask these Yankees fans, how pretty do you ask your buddies who
20:57are Mets fans?
20:57How much they wouldn't mind being in the playoffs every year, winning 93, 94, 95 games every
21:02year like the Yankees.
21:03Right.
21:03I mean, ask them if they wouldn't mind signing up for that.
21:06I bet you they would.
21:07I bet you most teams in baseball would.
21:09Crazy.
21:10Well, it's so nice to have chatted with you, Mike.
21:12We may have done this 20 years ago in different places, Bulldog and I, but when Bulldog mentioned
21:17in the book and this opportunity, we were both really excited about it.
21:20The bosses of the Bronx from Mike Vaccaro, our guests here today on WGR.
21:25Thank you, Mike.
21:26Good luck.
21:27Guys, thank you so much.
21:28I hope you guys have a nice long run with the Sabres because that'll be a lot of fun
21:31stuff to talk about the next couple of months, hopefully.
21:33Yeah, sure.
21:34Thanks for that.
21:34That would be great.
21:35Mike Vaccaro, again, the bosses of the Bronx.
21:38Thanks.
21:38Thanks.
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