00:00And the U.S. and Israeli war on Iran has produced mixed emotions among Iran's opposition, both at home and
00:06abroad.
00:07And reports in the French media suggest the Iranian regime is using the war to increase pressure on diaspora groups
00:13critical of Tehran.
00:15A report last week by the Fars State News Agency said the government was launching a collaborative website to gather
00:21documentary evidence
00:22on those who have, quote, turned their back on the homeland when it is facing external threats.
00:28And for more on this, I can welcome Roya Burumand, historian and co-founder and executive director of the Abdur
00:34-Rahman Burumand Center for Human Rights in Iran,
00:37who's also a former political prisoner in Iran.
00:41Thank you very much for joining us, Roya.
00:43Can I start by asking you about these threats that the Iranian diaspora are facing?
00:48And are they anything new?
00:50Well, thank you for having me.
00:51And no, there is nothing new.
00:54What I would call transnational repression, which is now known as transnational repression and taken more seriously,
01:03began in 1979 with the assassination of opposition figures abroad.
01:09In the recent years, after major protests, this transnational repression has become more widespread with death threats, harassments online and
01:28summons of family members.
01:31I mean, it has diverse forms, but it can also be very coercive and coarse and close to people, following
01:42people, intrusions in their homes when they're not there, signs, also in-person threats, death threats, and beatings and assaults.
01:54I mean, assassinations and kidnappings are the last resort, but there is like a range of, and recently, I mean,
02:03yesterday, the Minister of Justice announced having confiscated the property of 20 people inside Iran after careful consideration and information
02:15collected.
02:16There is a lot of intimidation and coercion to get information from the diaspora, and also, you know, restriction of
02:26access, you know, pressure on academia, on journalists even, with access, granting access or not access to the field.
02:35I mean, it's a very diverse, and the objective of all of these is obviously to silence and delegitimize dissent,
02:45but it is also to establish the official narrative and prevent, you know, competing narratives.
02:56It's also to further the government's political goals and foreign policy goals.
03:02And so it aims at projecting the sense of we are stable, we are legitimate, we represent religious, the religious
03:15beliefs of the country, but it, and it doesn't only target Iranians.
03:21You can see Iranians converting to Christianity, for example, in Ecuador, and then, you know, a Baptist pastor has to
03:32flee because the Islamic center, you know, is threatening his life.
03:36So it is not only Iranians, but we know more about Iranians, but it is not only Iranians.
03:43It's a much, much more systematic and widespread that it appears, and, you know, one of the reasons being that
03:52the states, for many years, tried to accommodate, tried to, you know, were not taking it seriously,
04:02and did not have coordinated policies together and sharing information, so, and Iran is not the only country, because it
04:13works, other countries have also started doing it.
04:17So it has become a phenomenon, and it has harmed, you know, thousands and thousands of families.
04:23I mean, we have documented close to 500 executions and assassinations abroad, but that is just, I believe, the tip
04:37of the iceberg.
04:38Now, you say, of course, that there have been these executions or assassinations of opposition figures go back to 1979.
04:48Your own father, Abdurrahman Boramund, was one of those killed here in Paris in 1991.
04:56How are Iranians abroad able to guard themselves against these threats, and does it actually curtail their activities?
05:04Well, yes, obviously.
05:07Each time one person is killed, tens, if not hundreds of people stop being active.
05:17We noticed that many people did not come to the funeral.
05:22Many new people came to the funeral because they knew what that means, right?
05:27But a lot of people didn't come to the funerals because they were scared.
05:31So it is very effective if they do it, because it has a political cost.
05:37Doing it has a political cost.
05:39Now, in the case of my father, we don't know anything because it was a bad time in terms of
05:45accountability.
05:47A lot of assassinations happened in France with impunity.
05:52But three months later, you know, the leader of my father's movement was assassinated.
05:59And that was obviously Revolutionary Guards carrying it out.
06:05And it was under the nose of French police because they were in the basement.
06:10So then, you know, that the political cost of this is much higher.
06:15And if they do it is because, you know, it is worth it.
06:20Now, you said that back then in the early 90s was a worse time in France, in particular, for accountability.
06:27Have things improved or does it vary according to whichever country these take place?
06:35I think it varies depending on countries.
06:38I think more recently the U.S. and the U.K. have been more transparent and talk about it and
06:46arrest people.
06:47The Netherlands, I mean, it wasn't only France.
06:51Sweden also did not act much at the time in the 1990s.
06:57And there were assassinations.
06:59Turkey, Pakistan, I mean, they all had different policies at different times.
07:04But generally speaking, we haven't seen many trials of, and if there are trials,
07:11we haven't seen many, many condemnation of Iran as the entity ordering these attacks.
07:23So somehow they have been able to get away with murder.
07:27The first very important case was in Germany where several Kurdish leaders were killed in 1992.
07:35And there was an arrest and there were trials, but it was the courage of a judge and a prosecutor
07:45that led to even the indictment of ministers, you know, intelligence ministers.
07:51It doesn't happen often.
07:54But, you know, countries have taken it more seriously.
07:58You have statements about transnational repression, joint statements.
08:03The transnational repression has made it to the U.N. resolutions on human rights against Iran.
08:11And so we are in a much better place.
08:13But I think justice, you know, needs more.
08:19Now, the Iranian opposition in exile is, like many exiles, dissident movements can be quite diverse.
08:27They all have a common enemy, but they might differ on, like, what alternatives to take and how to displace
08:36it.
08:37Are all these groups targeted in the same way by Tehran?
08:42I think, you know, it's less about the group's ideas than it is about how effective they are.
08:52If someone is making it to the news often, it can be a target.
08:59It can make that person a target.
09:01If they have good networks inside Iran, it can make them a target.
09:05I mean, networks that act or give information or spread views.
09:11If they are charismatic, it can make them a target.
09:16So perhaps, you know, individuals who are supporting some version of the state may be a little bit less targeted.
09:28But generally speaking, anything that upsets the official orthodoxy or rationale will draw attention.
09:37And if it is effective and if it impacts the views of the public outside Iran, then it becomes, you
09:46know, it becomes a problem and they act on it.
09:49So, but again, for example, the Kurds, the minorities get killed more easily.
09:55The families are summoned, arrested.
09:59The pressure also depends on the visibility of the target.
10:05The more visible they are, the less the pressure.
10:08So the political cost of these actions matter.
10:11The state considers the political cost and, you know, adjusts.
10:16And so I think the most important for states like France or other European states and others, because this is
10:25an attack not only on freedoms in the country, but also on public order.
10:32So it is important to have laws that take seriously collecting data on the diaspora's activities on behalf of a
10:41foreign state.
10:42It is important for the police to be trained to take the reports of such threats more seriously and figure
10:51out protection measures.
10:53It is important for states to coordinate their efforts.
10:57And it is also important to speak about it.
11:00Transparency is key.
11:02And for people within Iran themselves, are Iranians who may have relatives or friends living abroad, and presumably there would
11:12be quite a lot of Iranians in that situation, are they at greater risk?
11:16Well, so some of them are.
11:18If the person is not silenced or if the state believes that going after the relatives will make a difference,
11:26they will.
11:27Well, I, we don't have a lot of reports about relatives being killed in Iran in retaliation, but being arrested,
11:37fired from their jobs, you know, properties being confiscated.
11:44Those reports, yes, but, you know, we may not know everything because, you know, these acts are extremely effective.
11:54So if, you know, we get a report about, you know, some events related to dissidents abroad, that means that
12:03we don't get 20 others, right?
12:05So, because people go quiet and they don't talk about it.
12:09So not everyone reports and talks about what they experience.
12:12So we believe that it's pretty much extensive, but, you know, the killings may be, may be less for the
12:24relatives, I think.
12:26Thank you very much for that, Roya Boromund.
12:29Executive Director of the Abdu Boromund Center for Human Rights in Iran.
12:33Thank you for having me.
12:34You're welcome.
12:35Executive Director of the Abdub Boromund Center for Human Rights in Iran.
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