#Garlasco #ChiaraPoggi #AlbertoStasi #AndreaSempio #Stasi #Sempio #Poggi #Chilhavisto #Chilhavintage
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00:00Nobody expected the murder of Chiara Poggi to be reopened, but nobody expected it because there is a
00:06person in prison judged up to the Supreme Court
00:10and Andrea Sempio certainly didn't expect it when he returned to the nightmare because he found himself on the front pages
00:15of all the newspapers.
00:17I have with me our friend and geneticist Marina Baldi who has not dealt with this case, then
00:23we will talk about other cases she has dealt with,
00:26However, we would like to understand with you why DNA testing over time can provide certainties and what changes.
00:34But first I wanted to tell you that our Vittorio Romano who is dealing with this case with Cristiana Mangani,
00:41he was with our Marco Monti, he tried to approach Andrea Sempio and the first time Andrea walked,
00:49he tried to ask him some questions, but he said let's wait, I'll speak at the right time.
00:56I would start from here but then after he intercepted it again just today and Andrea Sempio who decided to
01:03go back to work
01:04he said I want to show myself, I want to show my face, he stopped, he was intercepted and something
01:10he told us more.
01:12So what is happening why Andrea Sempio has returned to this nightmare?
01:24For now, we are not making any further statements. Okay, for now, let's let the authorities do their job and that's it.
01:32Can you just tell us this: the second time you're accused of the same crime, how do you feel?
01:37How do you expect me to feel, my friend? Enough, there's nothing else to say for now.
01:45He just wants to return to his ordinary life in the province of Pavia.
01:50The two-room apartment for rent in Voghera, the job as a clerk in a shopping center, the rare evenings with friends
01:56ever.
01:57Andrea Sempio, 37, is forced to defend himself for the second time on the same charge: having killed Chiara Poggi.
02:06I said, don't just wait for the moment, there is nothing else to comment on.
02:1218 years after the crime, 10 years after the final conviction of her boyfriend Alberto Stasi,
02:18the Pavia prosecutor's office says it has gathered new evidence against him.
02:22There's talk again about the DNA on Chiara's nails, those phone calls to Poggi's house and then her movements
02:28that day, that August 13, 2007.
02:32It is difficult to understand a person being charged twice for the same crime when there is an accused convicted in via
02:37definitively in prison.
02:38So it's not easy, I imagine for you too.
02:42Let's proceed in order.
02:47It's nothing new that biological material was found on Chiara Poggi's nails.
02:52The point is that the expert who extracted the DNA in 2014 came to the conclusion that it was degraded and unusable.
03:00Today the Pavia prosecutor's office believes that the DNA is not only readable, but can also be compared with
03:07that of Sempio.
03:08For this reason, he was entered in the register of suspects and invited to undergo an oral swab test.
03:19A comparison had already been made.
03:22In 2016, Stasi's lawyers had Sempio followed by a private investigator who took biological material from a teaspoon.
03:30and a cup of coffee.
03:31The DNA found on Chiara's nails, the consultant concluded, is compatible with that of Andrea Sempio.
03:38One of the things that shocked me a little bit was the fact that I had a person, or
03:44at least that's what it says, that she followed me for a certain amount of time, she was very close to me.
03:48I was able to take the objects I had touched and find my DNA.
03:54All elements already evaluated in the first investigation against Sempio in 2017.
03:59It is absolutely plausible, we read in the archiving decree, that insignificant quantities of genetic material attributable to Sempio have been
04:07deposited on Chiara Poggi's nails.
04:10That DNA would therefore be neither a clue nor evidence, the judge writes.
04:14I don't know where they want to go to talk.
04:17However, they compare the results of the test on Chiara's nails.
04:21Ah, the results, another thing.
04:23Because you can't compare a newly extracted DNA with an 18-year-old expert report.
04:34What if Sempio's DNA was under Chiara Poggi's fingernails?
04:37Meanwhile, it's not clear whether it's under the nails or on the nails.
04:41Because if it were on the nails it could be, because on the nails it is contact DNA.
04:51They played with the computer and so they left their DNA and then Chiara used it to study, etc., she left the
05:02his DNA.
05:03And so it's easy for this overlap to occur.
05:07And Chiara's brother, Marco, has always confirmed his friend's version.
05:12When Andrea came to my house, we spent time playing video games, in the living room downstairs or on the computer which was
05:18in Chiara's room.
05:19Today investigators believe that the DNA did not arrive on Chiara's nails via an object,
05:25but derives from a direct contact between Sempio and Poggi.
05:29The nails are now destroyed, but the Milan Carabinieri found other fingerprints photographed in the villa in Garlasco.
05:35On the inside of the entrance door, on the wall of the stairs at the bottom of which the body was found
05:42and on the liquid soap dispenser on the bathroom sink.
05:47It was not thoroughly cleaned by the killer, investigators write, dropping the second-degree sentence.
05:54In fact, the DNA of the victim and her mother, as well as several other fingerprints, were also found on the soap dish.
05:59Only two are attributable to the Stasi, whose are the others? Is there an unknown second?
06:08Four long black hairs were also photographed in the sink.
06:12At the time Sempio wore long hair, in any case the finds have never been analysed and are now
06:19definitely lost.
06:21Who do they belong to? Of course, the onastasis, the blond one, who, if we remember carefully, was definitively sentenced.
06:28for other substantial pieces of evidence.
06:35The new investigation also includes three calls made by Andrea Sempio to the landline of Casa Poggi.
06:42between August 7 and 8, 2007.
06:45His friend Marco left for Trentino on the 5th.
06:48Why does Sempio call Casa Poggi?
06:51Did you want to talk to Chiara?
06:52Had he perhaps fallen for his friend's sister?
06:55Investigators ask themselves.
06:56What was the relationship between Andrea Sempio and Chiara Poggi?
07:00No relation. She was his friend's sister.
07:04Why did Andrea Sempio call Marco Poggi's house even though he knew Marco wasn't there?
07:10It's not true that he didn't know it wasn't there.
07:14It's not true that he didn't know.
07:16He didn't know if it was there or not.
07:20Let's analyze the three calls to Casa Poggi.
07:23The first is on August 7th, at 5.42pm.
07:26Andrea calls from his cell phone.
07:28The conversation lasts just two seconds.
07:31Eight minutes later he calls back from his home phone, not from his cell phone, but from his landline.
07:37Chiara answers and this time they speak for eight seconds.
07:40Sempio himself, interviewed by the Carabinieri a year after the crime, provided an explanation.
07:46Having saved Poggi Casa and Poggi Cell in my cell phone's address book,
07:50I mistakenly made the call to Marco's landline and not his mobile phone.
07:54I don't remember if anyone answered the call.
07:56Immediately afterward I tried to contact Marco on his cell phone, but he was unreachable.
08:01After a few attempts, he arrived at my home,
08:04I decided to call his landline from home and a female voice answered.
08:07I remember my phone call: is Marco there? No, he's not, he's away.
08:13The next day, Sempio calls the Poggi house at 4:54 pm and speaks to Chiara for 21 seconds.
08:22Then a week before, what does that have to do with it?
08:25If he had called an hour earlier, well, it would have some value,
08:30because one, well, I have to go and fuck that girl there, right?
08:36Wait for him to call to see if he's there, or if anyone else is.
08:41Ok, but a week before, to do it.
08:46To what end?
08:47There are then two other elements that would exonerate him.
08:50The bike he was using in 2007 was red, the killer's was black.
08:54His shoe size is 44.
08:57The murderer was wearing a size 42, but a new expert assessment could be ordered on this too in the next few days.
09:08Let's go back to that August 13, 2007.
09:11Chiara was killed between 9:12 and 9:35 in the morning, according to the final sentence.
09:16Where was Sempio located?
09:17In his apartment on Via Rossini, in Garlasco, a kilometer and a half from the crime scene, with his father.
09:23That morning Andrea Sempio woke up in his apartment on Via Rossini, in Garlasco.
09:28I think my father was there too, the investigators will say, and the father confirms.
09:32He was with him.
09:33He waits for his mother, who is the only car in the family.
09:37He wants to buy a book and drives to Feltrinelli in Vigevano.
09:40It's 17 kilometers.
09:41At 9.58 his phone connects to the Garlasco cell.
09:45We set off from Via Rossini in Garlasco, heading towards Feltrinelli in Vigevano, on Via Sant'Ambrogio.
09:51It's 17 kilometers.
09:55He would have had time to arrive in Piazza Sant'Ambrogio, in Vigevano,
09:59where he parked at 10:18, as evidenced by this meticulously preserved receipt.
10:05It took us 21 minutes and 32 seconds to get to Piazza Sant'Ambrogio, in Vigevano,
10:11but we found traffic.
10:13Obviously, around mid-August, with the roads free, we could calculate a time between 15 and 20 minutes.
10:18At an average speed of 68 kilometers per hour, it takes about 15 minutes,
10:22to travel those 17 kilometers.
10:25What Sempio said is plausible.
10:2718 years have passed.
10:29Obviously the parking meter has been replaced.
10:31Now you need to enter the complete license plate.
10:34In the receipt from Sempio, obviously from 2007,
10:37there was no reference to the license plate.
10:39There was no need to insert it.
10:41Sempio explains that he found the bookshop closed,
10:43of having taken a walk around Piazza Ducale,
10:45to then return to Garlasco, to her grandmother,
10:47where your phone gets cell service.
10:49At 11.10am.
10:50It never hooks up.
10:51Some cells, Vigevano.
10:53Why?
10:53The answer, provided to investigators in 2017,
10:56It's just that Andrea doesn't receive any calls during that hour.
10:59The clerk confirmed that the bookstore was closed on August 13, 2007.
11:05They've already checked, obviously, on the orders of the Carabinieri.
11:09The reconstruction of Sempio, writes the GIP,
11:12who filed his position eight years ago,
11:14it appears to be fully reliable.
11:16Yet today it is precisely that receipt
11:18to arouse the interest of investigators.
11:20Why keep it for a year,
11:22since in 2008 no one suspected Sempio?
11:25It was the mother who decided to keep it,
11:27Sempio explains nine years later.
11:29That receipt was found by my father or mother
11:32on the car a few days after the fact.
11:35My mother said, just to be safe, let's keep it.
11:38Rereading the wiretaps already examined by magistrates in 2017,
11:42the carabinieri dwell on a particular conversation.
11:45February 10, Sempio is in the car with his father.
11:49We screwed up one,
11:50that I said that the receipt had been found
11:53after I had been heard,
11:54that you said we found it first.
11:56Okay, nothing changes.
11:58From the interceptions,
11:59it is stated in the PM's request for archiving,
12:02no clues emerge
12:03that a unanimous version has been agreed upon.
12:05How is it possible that today
12:07those same conversations
12:09become evidence against Sempio?
12:17So, Marina Baldi, you're a geneticist, so you study DNA, right?
12:21So, DNA is always the same,
12:23in the sense that there are no traces of DNA
12:26which have now been studied with new technologies.
12:29There's a sheet of paper, right?
12:30Yes, they are the electroferrogram sheets with the table.
12:33And so clearly...
12:34So let's show it,
12:35the first electroferrogram,
12:36I mean, DNA, Marina Baldi, is translated, right?
12:38Exact.
12:38Here it is, translated into letters and numbers.
12:40At that time...
12:41This is the first...
12:42This is the first one that was made from nails,
12:49you see what's written on the lines,
12:51Y, hand, right, fifth.
12:54Yes.
12:54This means it is the nail of the fifth finger of the right hand.
13:00Where are those gray paintings?
13:02Those are the names of the points that are being examined
13:06on the Y chromosome.
13:08Y, as usual we explain that it is the tax code,
13:13as if it were a tax code.
13:14But it's part of the family, let's say,
13:15not of the person.
13:16But let's say surname, name, place, date of birth.
13:20What varies is what's written inside.
13:22As you can see, there is only one peak in almost all of them,
13:26as this peak is a haplotype.
13:31That is, men have only one Y chromosome,
13:34so for each locus there is only one allele, only one peak.
13:38And as you can see, all the peaks are above 100-120,
13:44which are the minimum acceptability values ​​of a profile.
13:52This value, in fact, has changed.
13:55In the sense that at the beginning they were considered possible and valid
14:00only those above 150 RFU,
14:04that's the unit of measurement.
14:07Now, based on the tests that are done in the laboratory,
14:12you can also go down.
14:13Everyone, in their own reports, writes what their dream value is.
14:16So, at first, this expertise,
14:18this trace of DNA is considered useless
14:22to reach a certain person.
14:24If we look at the table, now I don't know if you also have the table...
14:28We have the hands, the second sheet,
14:32the one that specifically concerns the fingers.
14:35So, in this case,
14:37This is the summary of the electropherograms.
14:41If we go to look at the fifth finger of the right hand,
14:44you see there are three lines.
14:46These three lines are because multiple replicas have been made
14:50of the same analysis.
14:52And from guidelines they should be considered as real
14:57only those numbers that are found in all replicas.
15:05Actually, this is true only up to a point,
15:08because these, we said,
15:09they were concentrated enough,
15:12not excellent, but sufficient.
15:15So, in fact, if we look at the second line
15:18of the fifth finger of the right hand,
15:19we see that there is a profile that is almost complete.
15:23It's not complete, but it's definitely a usable profile.
15:28So, the detective who takes the teaspoon,
15:34then he takes the coffee cup,
15:35the little bottle of water, we heard before,
15:37for example, he says I stayed, I wasn't followed,
15:40they are investigators who are consultants
15:42of the Stasi family, right?
15:44Then they bring, instead, this other electroferrogram
15:48and they say there is certainty that that DNA belongs to Andrea Sempio.
15:56So, the point is that the alleles are actually the same,
16:01so it's not like there's a discussion about that.
16:05We can say they are assessable, they are not assessable,
16:09For me the DNA is too low, it is not a complete profile,
16:12but, as usual, when a profile is not complete,
16:15we can exclude that it belongs, for example, to Stasi,
16:20but we cannot exclude that Sempio's profile is included instead.
16:28What's the problem?
16:29it's just that it's not complete, so obviously all of this is just a discussion
16:34quite statistically random,
16:37but today, compared to ten years ago, we have portals,
16:43for example there is a portal called YHRD,
16:46which gives us the frequency of each Y chromosome in the world,
16:51so the statistical data has become much more significant.
16:56so it is easier to assign a profile today.
16:59But in your opinion, since the DNA is no longer there,
17:02you can understand if it is from direct contact
17:05or if it had been left on the keyboard instead
17:08and then which has been used by more?
17:10Well, this will be impossible to establish,
17:11but since the DNA is not particularly concentrated,
17:16nothing takes away the fact that it could be contact DNA
17:20even from secondary transfer,
17:23we will never know.
17:24That is, can it be mediated by a keyboard?
17:26Sure, from a mouse, from a glass, from a handshake.
17:31And whether it is from direct contact, this cannot be known.
17:34No, but there is one thing to say,
17:36which having been done immediately,
17:38if it had been a defense DNA,
17:40it would have been much more focused,
17:42because there are so many publications that tell us
17:45that DNA when it scratches, when it defends itself, is a lot.
17:49It's clear, there's a scratch that's different,
17:50that you even have skin under your nails,
17:53so the defense contact would have been a greater DNA.
17:57But what happened?
18:00That Vittorio Romano insisted,
18:02we saw what an example,
18:04in short, he wants to escape a little,
18:06but for all the reasons.
18:07He says, I'm not worried from a legal point of view,
18:11but the media world has fallen on me again.
18:16But Vittorio Romano insisted with Marco Monti
18:19and intercepted it at a particular moment,
18:22in which he said, but I, well,
18:24I have to go with my head held high, I want to go to work.
18:27I have nothing to do with this murder,
18:29I am innocent.
18:30Let's listen.
18:33Andrea, sorry to bother you again.
18:36I'm really sorry to bother you again.
18:38Are you going back to work today?
18:39Yes, it's time to go back,
18:41It's time to show yourself.
18:45You can only stop for a second,
18:47we can really ask you for courtesy.
18:49I know the lawyer said not to talk about the details.
18:53Tell us how you feel about being investigated for the second time.
18:56for the murder of Chiara Poggi.
18:59So, from a legal point of view I'm calm.
19:02From a media point of view,
19:04this is the thing that is weighing on me a little more, let's say.
19:08In fact, all of Italy is wondering,
19:11So is Stasi really innocent?
19:12Is there another culprit?
19:13Andrea, I have to ask you this question.
19:15Are you innocent?
19:17I have nothing to do with this story,
19:19I have nothing to do with it,
19:20I am innocent
19:21and now let's let the authorities take their course and off we go.
19:25And you'll see that everything will be fine.
19:27I feel that slightly that he gave me the tone of voice,
19:29can I ask you if you're angry?
19:31I'm a little annoyed by the whole thing, let's say.
19:36Can you just tell us if you still have a relationship with Chiara's brother, is that all?
19:40Absolutely yes,
19:41we still hear from each other,
19:42If I need to hear from him, I'll call him directly,
19:46I don't hear it through the media.
19:47So you're still friends,
19:49let's say the Poggi family,
19:50so he obviously believes in you?
19:51That absolutely yes,
19:53I never had any doubts about that.
19:55Thank you.
19:56Good day.
20:00Think about it a little,
20:02in short, it's a very strong media impact,
20:04why find yourself splashed on the front page
20:07like Chiara Poggi's murderer.
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