- 21 hours ago
Dragons Den UK S23E06
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TVTranscript
00:00The doors to the den are open for business.
00:04A place where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:10But this time, the game has changed.
00:12A fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up and steal the deals.
00:20Joining the dragons tonight...
00:22I'm Susie Ma and I'm the founder and CEO of Tropic Skincare.
00:26Good to have you back, Susie.
00:28Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be back again.
00:31My business has been one of the top 100 fastest growing businesses in the UK.
00:36That's what I'm looking for.
00:38When I look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs, I want to see real passion.
00:42I really like you.
00:43I'm looking for that entrepreneur with that seed of an idea that I know I can invest in support to
00:48make it something amazing.
00:50I'm getting emotional here.
00:52I am buzzing with excitement and I'm ready to make investments.
01:06My name's Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:10My business is called Ayase.
01:15Don't tell me.
01:16It's a backpack.
01:18Well, it's got a stethoscope there.
01:21I've no idea why I'm engaging in this. I hate this game.
01:28I'm feeling quite nervous.
01:30I've been a doctor for 24 years, but I've only been a businesswoman for two.
01:34So I'm anxious about the examination that the dragons are going to give me, but I hope they'll want to
01:40invest in me.
01:52Hello, dragons.
01:54My name is Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:57I'm here to ask you for £50,000 in return for a 20% share in my company, Ayase.
02:05Ayase is a Japanese word that means to heal.
02:08And that is what millions of doctors around the world do every day.
02:12But did you know that the traditional Gladstone doctor's bag was designed in the 1800s at a time when the
02:20vast majority of doctors were men?
02:23Thankfully, times have changed and nowadays over 50% of doctors in the UK are female.
02:30Unfortunately, the bags have not.
02:32These boring bags are outdated, masculine, and sometimes they don't even have enough pockets to hold our medical equipment.
02:47Ayase makes high-end luxury doctor's bags designed for women in healthcare.
02:52They contain multiple pockets to carry and organise our medical equipment.
02:57And we have six different designs and each is named after a pioneering female doctor.
03:04Ayase has been trading for two years.
03:06We have sold nearly 300 bags and we have had a turnover since launch combined of £80,000.
03:15Before I welcome your questions, I'd like to give you all a bag so that you can inspect them.
03:21A stylish range of bags, tailored to the taste of female GPs and other healthcare professionals, is the offering from
03:30Dr Catherine Fernando.
03:31This one's for you, Peter.
03:33Thank you very much.
03:34Okay, Dr Tony.
03:36This one's for you, Dr Foutlet.
03:38Thank you so much.
03:40She's asking for £50,000 in return for a 20% share of her company.
03:45So, I've chosen the red one for you, Barbara.
03:48Oh, lovely.
03:49Good choice.
03:50Thank you very much.
03:51I like that.
03:52The bags are proving popular.
03:54I like yours.
03:55This is cool.
03:56And already wanting to make a trade...
03:59Do I swap?
04:00Stephen Bartlett is first with a question.
04:07Dr Catherine.
04:08Hello.
04:09What type of doctor are you?
04:10I'm a GP.
04:11A GP, okay.
04:12Is this your first business?
04:14It is, yes.
04:14I think the elephant in the room is just about the size of the market, because...
04:19Yes.
04:19I don't know how many doctors there are and how many people that would be relevant to use
04:23this kind of bag.
04:24Okay.
04:25So, the doctors that are relevant for this kind of bag are general practitioners.
04:29And in the UK, there are 54,000 GPs.
04:33And over half of doctors in the UK are female now.
04:37And about 60% of them go into general practice.
04:40Okay.
04:41So, how many customers do you think you have that could buy this product in the UK total?
04:47In the UK total, I think I would have 28,000 customers that could buy a bag.
04:54It's not a huge market, is it?
04:55It is quite a niche market.
04:57The market is expanded when you include advanced nurse practitioners.
05:01And you mentioned the word luxury in your pitch.
05:03Yes.
05:04How much does this cost?
05:06So, retail price of that bag is £300.
05:10£300?
05:11Yes.
05:11Wow.
05:12Wow.
05:12Oh, wow.
05:13Has it got Gucci on the side?
05:15It does have a lot of detailing.
05:17It has details on all of the metalwork, the zips.
05:21It has feet on the bottom of the bag.
05:24I think if you were a doctor, you'd have something like that, wouldn't you?
05:27I can see you with this.
05:29I mean, it's gorgeous.
05:31It feels really high quality.
05:34So, what do you think?
05:35I think they're lovely.
05:37I mean, and when you look inside, I think the design is lovely.
05:40I mean, there's a lot of work that goes into these bags.
05:42There is a lot of work.
05:43I mean, it's a high price point.
05:45It is.
05:46But when you look at the bag, I can understand how the cost, how much they're costing you to make?
05:51This one, for example.
05:52That one, for example, would cost £73 to make.
05:55So, that costs £73.
05:57Yes.
05:58What does that sell for?
05:59£275.
06:01£275.
06:01Yes.
06:02And are you selling the direct to consumer?
06:04I am.
06:05I have had some interest from a retailer, and they've bought 58 bags from me.
06:09And they ordered a few more, like, two weeks ago.
06:13And how many is a few more?
06:15Oh, only three more.
06:16Okay.
06:17They sold out.
06:17It was not good one style.
06:18Okay, so they're selling a bit, but they're not absolutely flying off the shelves.
06:21I've got to say, Catherine, that the product is great quality.
06:25I mean, I had one, but it's been taken by Dr Bartlett.
06:29By Dr Bartlett.
06:30Dr Bartlett.
06:31No, but I think the quality of it is fantastic.
06:34So, at the start of the business, I wanted to make sure that I established my brand being a very
06:40high-quality product.
06:42And hopefully, in the future, if we are able to continue with another round, then we can seek factories to
06:50get the bags at a lower cost.
06:52You said to Peter something there, which was quite curious.
06:54You said, if we're able to continue.
06:56Yes.
06:57What do you mean by continue?
06:58Do you mean the business continue?
06:59No, no, I just mean when we go into a second round of production, then it would be great to
07:05be able to source the bags at a lower cost.
07:11At this point, we have a lot of stock.
07:15I bought 1,900 bags because I went for the style and the colours.
07:21Yes, so I have 1,550 bags left.
07:27So, if we're able to sell them, which hopefully we will be, then we can make £465,000 from that,
07:36in which case we will definitely be able to continue and look for new markets.
07:41How much have you invested in this business so far?
07:44I've actually invested over £400,000 of my own money into it.
07:50£400,000?
07:51Yes.
07:52Where did you get the £400,000 from?
07:55My uncle died in COVID.
07:57Okay, sorry to hear.
07:58That's okay.
07:58Sorry.
08:00You've produced a beautiful, stunning product off the back of that.
08:03So, it's not an investment wasted in that regard.
08:07It is tough.
08:08It is tough because I've been in this space before and I spent a lot of time working in the
08:13marketing side of this space, but also we had a business come into the den a couple of years ago.
08:18He was selling these designer bags made here in Manchester.
08:21Right.
08:22Tough.
08:22Yes.
08:23Tough from all sides.
08:32A little bit too tough for me.
08:33That's fine.
08:34I understand.
08:35I'm going to say that I'm out, but thank you so much and I'm going to pay for that bag.
08:39Thank you, Stephen.
08:41Dr. Catherine, I actually worry that you're so focused on the GPs that you're missing a massive market.
08:52Okay.
08:53Because I wouldn't, if you look at the inside of this, it just does what I want it to do.
08:57Great.
08:58It doesn't just do what the doctor, you want it to do.
09:01You know, it's a lovely looking bag.
09:03It's got somewhere from my laptop.
09:04I can put all of my toiletries in there and I can put, it's really nice.
09:09Now, that doesn't stop the whole market being very difficult, as Stephen's alluded to, you know.
09:16But you do need to find a wider market.
09:18Okay.
09:18And I suspect that if you can just find those platforms, you will sell enough of the goods to do
09:26the thing that I actually do think worries you.
09:28Because I think when it came out to Stephen saying, if we can continue, there is something in the back
09:34of your head that's worrying you.
09:36That if I don't sell these, it isn't, I can't, I can't keep putting more money in.
09:41That's, you know, you, £400,000, that is a lot of money to put in.
09:44I know.
09:45But I absolutely love what you're doing.
09:48But I won't be investing.
09:49That's okay, Debra.
09:53Catherine, you know what?
09:54I think if you came here today with a wider story of how this bag is a multifunctional bag for
10:03the everyday working woman, I think you'd have very different responses from the dragons.
10:08And I think there's a lot of work you would need to put into this to just shift the stock.
10:16And I'm not passionate about it enough to kind of drive this with you.
10:20So I'm so sorry, Catherine, for that reason I'm out.
10:27You are very brave.
10:29£400,000 investment in this business, you are a real entrepreneur and brave.
10:38Having looked at this and saying, and heard what you said, your pitch limits the amount of turnover you can
10:48actually do with 28,000 potential customers.
10:52For that reason, I don't see that as an investment for me in the short term, so I'm out.
10:58And Catherine, I think you've clearly got a problem.
11:00You can't sell the volume, can you?
11:02Yes.
11:02Right, so to be able to sell the volume, you'd be better off to do something with a specific retailer
11:07that sells luggage and provide that product on a consignment basis to them.
11:12OK.
11:12And allow them to do what they do best, which is target their customers and sell your product and take
11:17a percentage rather than anything else.
11:19Yeah.
11:19There's your route.
11:20OK.
11:21Look, I think this is really tough.
11:24I really hope that you can actually get out of the stock by partnering with somebody.
11:29But it's not an investment for me, I'm going to say that I'm out.
11:34Well done, Catherine.
11:35Thank you so much.
11:36Thank you, Catherine.
11:36Thank you so much.
11:37Bye-bye.
11:40Catherine hoped her doctor's bag would be just what the Dragons ordered.
11:46But its niche appeal didn't get their pulses racing and she leaves the den without a deal.
11:53Although the Dragons didn't invest, they absolutely loved the designs and the quality of the bags.
11:58But it's just too small a market for them.
12:01It's crazy how one sentence, if we are able to continue, tells the complete story of where she's at in
12:07her head.
12:07She's lacking the confidence, isn't she?
12:08Yeah.
12:09I'm having it anyway.
12:11Can I have that back?
12:12No, you can't have it.
12:13You're not going to mind it.
12:14No, you're not having that.
12:17I'm still very passionate about my company and this is definitely not the end of IASI.
12:36I'm Ben McGair.
12:37I'm the owner of Compo and we are on a mission to redefine food waste by allowing people to conveniently
12:42dispose of their food waste in one touch.
12:46Composter.
12:47Must be a composter.
12:48Must be a composter.
12:50What a load of rubbish.
12:51You're on fire with your puns, Peter.
12:54Oh, the fresh take you have on Peter's puns.
12:58I think you're great, Susie.
13:02The Dragons all have strengths that directly align with Compo.
13:07I think Deborah, though, is the standout for her history of sustainable and eco projects.
13:24Hello, Dragons.
13:25My name is Ben and today I'm here to ask for £86,000 in exchange for 20% of my
13:31company, Compo.
13:33I'm sure that you all dispose of your food waste in a variety of different ways.
13:38Some of you will take the time to compost your food waste.
13:41Some of you let the council deal with the disposal part of it.
13:45However, some of you may simply throw your food waste into the black bin and simply forget about it.
13:50When food is left to rot in landfill conditions, a harmful by-product called methane is produced.
13:57Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas, which is 28 times more potent than CO2.
14:03But we can take steps to reduce its impact on the environment.
14:08Compo is a sleek alternative to food disposal.
14:11You simply place your food waste in this unit, press one button, and in five to eight hours, you are
14:23left with a dried, reduced-volume, biodegradable mix, which is kinder to the planet.
14:31First of numbers, to date, we have received over €103,000 in pre-orders.
14:38And that is with a gross profit of €64,500 and a slight net loss of €6,500.
14:46Now, with your investment, we are planning to heavily invest in our stock and our marketing expansion.
14:53And with this, we predict that we will be profitable by Q4.
14:57I'd love to show you guys around and any questions you might have as well.
15:01Can we come up and see?
15:02Yes, come on up.
15:05A machine to break down food waste quickly and efficiently in the home...
15:10I'd like to smell it.
15:12Yeah, of course.
15:13..is the offering from Ben McGurr.
15:15So is this a prototype?
15:16So this is a finalised unit, and we ran it today.
15:20And this is... It's actually still quite warm from today, so...
15:23So this is working?
15:24Yes, this is what came out of this one today.
15:27The eco-conscious entrepreneur is asking for £86,000 in return for a 20% stake in the business.
15:35That's nice.
15:36That looks like the stuff you put out of a plug.
15:38The dragons seem to be enjoying getting their hands dirty.
15:42Is it squishy?
15:43But with a passion for all things green, Deborah Meaden wants to dig deeper.
15:51Ben, thank you.
15:54So we actually compost virtually.
15:57Either it goes to our animals or we compost everything.
15:59There is nothing in our house that doesn't get composted.
16:02And there's lovely juices that come off compost.
16:04There is.
16:05And they're actually... They are lovely if you're a gardener because they're...
16:08You know, you can do something with them.
16:10So what... I was going to say how dry, but I'm going to ask a slightly different question.
16:14Yeah.
16:14What can I use that for?
16:16So it is a biodegradable mix.
16:18Simply mix it in with compost if you have it.
16:21So you're probably thinking, well, if I don't have compost, what am I meant to do with it?
16:24So you can mix it with anything you have, like potting soil.
16:28So if I wanted to essentially, let's say, repot this plant into a larger pot,
16:32rather than having to use additional soil, I could mix this in and essentially the nutrients would filter it.
16:37And what if I don't want to do any of that?
16:39So I'm doing it because I've got a massive pile of peelings over here.
16:44Yeah.
16:44And this reduces the waste and the smell.
16:47Yes.
16:47Now, hear me out.
16:48This may sound very counterproductive.
16:50You can bin it.
16:52And I know that might...
16:53That sounds really counterproductive.
16:55It does.
16:56And I will tell you why it's not.
16:57So if it was a scenario where you had to put it into a black bin to send to landfill,
17:02a lot of, essentially, when food waste, fresh food waste has around 70 to 90% moisture content,
17:09that is really where the methane producing bacteria likes to feed on.
17:16So essentially, you're lowering the reactivity of that material in a landfill to produce methane,
17:22and you're also greatly reducing its volume.
17:25Ben, did you develop this machine?
17:28So when I moved in with my girlfriend into a apartment, we had a food bin which was less
17:35than pleasant.
17:36So I actually went looking for a solution.
17:39There was any amounts of fancy bins and different things that we've seen.
17:43So there is products similar.
17:45However, their price point was a little bit less than desirable.
17:47So I went to a manufacturer and see if we could develop something at a much lower price point,
17:53which had basically all the convenient features of the ones that I've seen on the market that day.
17:58So how much is your product?
18:00So it retails for £249.
18:03Where is it made?
18:04In China.
18:06So this is an existing product that you've taken the branding of,
18:11or have you changed anything about what the manufacturer has already made?
18:16So the initial prototype the manufacturer sent me was single, had a single filter in it.
18:22I worked with them to get an upgraded version, essentially.
18:25But the actual development of the product is done by the supplier, yeah.
18:30So anyone could go and buy this product?
18:35Yeah, so we have been working with them to get exclusivity.
18:39And they said that they will open those conversations at around the 4,000 unit a month mark,
18:45which we are not there at the moment.
18:48Ben, this is a very, immediately, it's sort of alarm bells.
18:54I think the fact that you don't own any of this, that's really, really worrying.
18:59Because for this to become truly valuable, you need to own the IP ultimately.
19:04Something similar, or a pattern, you need to have something of value.
19:08So is there anything you can give me that gives you the confidence to be able to do a deal,
19:12rather than become a distributor of a product?
19:15Yeah.
19:16Because that's ultimately what you are today.
19:17Yeah, so I think in terms of the branding and marketing is where we want to try and retain some
19:24of that market uniqueness.
19:27I've got trademarks launched in the UK and Ireland.
19:30I know that's not a product IP that you're looking for, but it is some protection that we have around
19:35the brand as a whole.
19:37Yeah, what's the brand?
19:39Campo.
19:39Yeah.
19:40Yeah.
19:41So I mean, that could be a football.
19:42Yeah.
19:43Even if you did have IP, people will still find a way to copy.
19:46So I don't think having IP in this day and age is that much of a big deal.
19:51Yeah.
19:51Because there's always ways around it.
19:53Yeah.
19:53I think, like, I do, obviously, the IP is something that was, you know, in my head today to counteract.
19:59I think, like, it's important and I understand, but, you know, it's a big, it's fundamental.
20:05Yeah.
20:05Especially for acquisitions.
20:07If you want to build a business, a proper business, you need the IP.
20:11Yeah.
20:12If you just want to be a salesman, then you don't need IP.
20:15There are, I'm not.
20:17I don't think it's the be all or the end.
20:20There are some businesses that actually don't need IP and people come in here with IP and I say,
20:26that's lovely, but that really isn't worth anything because there's a thousand ways of achieving that.
20:32Exactly.
20:32So I think, I think it's not the be all and end all, but I'm going to tell you where
20:36I am.
20:40£249.
20:41Yeah.
20:42Would I buy one?
20:44Why would I buy one?
20:47Well, the trouble is, it doesn't do the whole job.
20:51When you said to me, I might have to take, because I've got nothing else to do with it,
20:56I've got to take that and I've got to put that in landfill.
20:58That might be better, but I want to know that I'm doing the right thing.
21:03I don't want to know that I'm doing 80, 70 or 80 billion to the right thing.
21:07I want to know if I'm going to spend £249.
21:09It solves that particular problem.
21:13So it's just, you know, I'm looking for slam dunk and you didn't give it to me.
21:17So I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.
21:19I'm out.
21:20Very nice.
21:24Ben, without being too predictable, this is a tough sell.
21:29For this to be truly successful and big, I still think you're going to have to own the IP.
21:34You're a brilliant salesman, but that doesn't necessarily make a business that is investable.
21:40So I'm going to say that I'm out, but well done and good luck.
21:45Ben.
21:46Yes.
21:47You are an entrepreneur at heart and it's so clear, abundantly clear to me that you're going to figure it
21:52out,
21:52whether it's this or something else.
21:53So if I could invest in you, that would be a great bet.
21:59But for me, the IP thing is the sticking point.
22:02It really is.
22:04So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the very best, Ben.
22:07Thanks, David.
22:10Okay.
22:13Ben, I'm going to say what I say.
22:16Ben, you have not convinced me that this business is investable.
22:21You are, but not this business.
22:24So I'm not going to give you my £86,000 today.
22:29However, if ever you find yourself in London, you're looking for a job, you've got one.
22:35Okay, I'll keep that in mind.
22:36So I'm not going to invest today.
22:38I'm out.
22:42Ben, I think you're a great entrepreneur.
22:45I love that you're thinking about something that, for me, is a really attractive product.
22:50So I would actually buy this because currently I have a compost bin that sits on my kitchen countertop
22:55that is gathering fruit flies.
22:57Every time I open it, there are like literally fruit flies coming out of it in my face.
23:02And then I put the bin out and then the foxes get to it.
23:05So absolutely, I would be buying one of these.
23:07And I don't believe that you have to have an IP in order for you to be successful.
23:12What is your vision for the long term?
23:15Like, where do you see this going?
23:18In, I suppose the real answer is in every home that someone has for their food waste.
23:26Ideally, the vision is to eradicate food waste from landfills
23:29and to give everyone the opportunity to sustainably dispose of their food waste.
23:35That is the vision.
23:36And I do want this to be in every home as standard.
23:39I love that, Ben.
23:41I love that your vision for the future wasn't, I want to sell X amount in X countries.
23:46It was about eradicating food waste and landfills.
23:50And that speaks to the heart.
23:51And that's, that's really amazing.
23:56Ben, I am going to make you an offer.
23:58Because I feel like I could come with you to China and negotiate better prices.
24:03I think we can tweak some parts of the machinery and we can make this have a competitive edge
24:10against all the other brands out there and also undercut them.
24:16And I could help you promote this.
24:21But I would like a higher equity.
24:24So you asked for £86,000 for 20%.
24:28So I will offer you all of the money.
24:31I would like 40% equity.
24:36Have a think about it.
24:44So, Suze, I think that a lot of what you have to offer is definitely something that I'm missing.
24:54I would love, though, to meet somewhere closer to the middle.
24:59Could you meet me at 32?
25:03I respect you coming back with an alternative.
25:0735?
25:11I'll go 35, yeah.
25:1335 it is!
25:15Yay!
25:18Success for Ben.
25:21Let's get the whole nation composting at home.
25:24Yes!
25:25Well done, Ben.
25:26Well done.
25:27He's won the backing of a dragon with the potential to help his food waste contraption
25:32rise to the top of the heap.
25:35Wow, yeah.
25:37Obviously delighted to have Cece on board, so I think that she'll bring a lot to the business
25:42that I'm not able to.
25:43I thought he was amazing, genuinely.
25:46I really, really liked him, and I think regardless of what happens, I want to be in business with
25:50that guy.
25:50Yeah, that one definitely isn't rubbish.
25:54Don't encourage him.
25:56The investment really does validate that there may be something there that Susie sees in
26:01me, not just in the business.
26:03I'm going to go get some food, celebrate with a pint, and I'm excited for the future.
26:21My name's Helen, and this is my husband Phil, and we're from Widness in Cheshire.
26:27Phil and Helen from Widness.
26:30It's a challenge, working with your wife and being with your wife 24 hours a day, but we've
26:37made it work over time.
26:39Wow, good luck.
26:42He asks for his lunch every day.
26:45Still.
26:46I don't ask for my lunch.
26:50My stomach just churn, then.
26:53It is very nerve-wracking.
26:57But we've practised, and we really want this, so bring it on.
27:15Hi Dragons, I'm Phil Lord.
27:16And I'm Helen Lord.
27:18We are the founders of Rehome, the kitchen, bedroom, bathroom outlet, and we are seeking
27:24£100,000 for 5% equity in our business.
27:28We wanted to bring to you a new way to buy a kitchen, one that literally doesn't cost the
27:34earth.
27:34When we purchased our current home, we needed a new kitchen, and we really didn't have a
27:40large budget.
27:41So we decided to see whether pre-loved could be a good option for us.
27:46After what can only be described as a long and challenging journey to online marketplaces,
27:51we paid £5,000 for a beautiful big kitchen that would have cost considerably more if it
27:59had been purchased new.
28:00That's when we thought, if more people knew this was possible, and had more help to do
28:05it, they too might consider it too.
28:08So over the last 10 years, we've developed our online supported marketplace for buying
28:15and selling pre-owned kitchens, bedrooms, and bathrooms.
28:20Rehome is B Corp certified, and we have saved to date 14,000 tonnes of carbon waste.
28:27And we're now looking for the support of a dragon to help us make rehome the go-to verb
28:33that people use when renovating their home.
28:38An online marketplace for second-hand kitchens, bathrooms, and bedrooms, intended to be easy
28:45on both pockets and the planet, is the proposition from Phil and Helen Lord.
28:50So we thought we'd show you some examples, because pre-owned is a bit of a mystery when
28:56it comes to kitchens.
28:58The couple are seeking £100,000.
29:01So this kitchen sold at just over £13,000.
29:06In return for a 5% share in their business.
29:09But we do estimate if that kitchen was purchased new today, that would cost in excess of £35,000.
29:16And this is the purchaser's results.
29:21So as you can see, it's been completely reconfigured into a different space.
29:27Phil and Helen might be capable of cooking up a dream kitchen for their customers,
29:32but how will they handle a potential grilling in the den?
29:40Phil and Helen, um...
29:41Yes.
29:42Hi.
29:43Hi.
29:43So at the moment, if I get it right, you are a marketplace.
29:46Correct.
29:47And you take a commission based on sales.
29:49Correct.
29:50And you have no stock.
29:51Correct.
29:52Except for appliances, where we do own the appliances as a dropship model.
29:57Yep.
29:57So, um, what percent do you charge commission?
30:02So our commission for pre-owned is 30% plus that.
30:06OK, so, how long have you been doing this?
30:10Um, we incorporated 10 years ago.
30:1310?
30:1410 years ago, yeah.
30:15But, um, I first brought the business to market two years before that.
30:21Wow.
30:22So, give us some numbers for the last three years.
30:26OK, our financials, uh, for 22-23.
30:30Yep.
30:30Uh, turnover was 2 million.
30:32Uh, we had a gross profit of 1.2 million.
30:35Yep.
30:36And a net profit of 450,000.
30:39Yep.
30:40In 23-24, we had a turnover of 1.3 million.
30:44Mm-hmm.
30:44Gross profit of 640,000 and a net loss of 515,000.
30:49Net loss?
30:50Yes, Tuca, a net loss of 515,000.
31:07Mm-hmm.
31:08And turnover, 1.6 million gross profit and net break even again.
31:13Right.
31:14So, somewhere, you're spending money.
31:19Yeah.
31:21Well, where's the money going?
31:22So, in-in 23-24, uh, we completely changed, uh, brand and developed a new website.
31:30And we went to market with that in 23, hence why we had the loss.
31:34Did you have some sort of consultant to help you do that?
31:37We did.
31:37We did.
31:38We had, uh, we did.
31:39What was going on?
31:41What was wrong with the business in your eyes that made you pivot and spend nearly the best
31:46part of a million pounds?
31:48So, the original website, it had plasters, bolt-ons, you know, it was a monster.
31:56Right.
31:56Um, and then the opportunity for e-commerce, um, really did come to the fore, um, for things
32:03like appliances, smaller items that didn't require consultative sale.
32:08Didn't you consider something like Shopify or something like that?
32:12It-it wasn't recommended to us.
32:14Amazing.
32:15Now, you don't make as much money as a consultant if you recommend effective solutions.
32:21It is-it is a key learn.
32:24Um, Helen, Bill.
32:25Well, so I actually just want to pick up on some numbers, because you're still spending
32:29one, between 1.2 and 1.6 million.
32:32So, what are the answers in the next two years as why you're spending that much money?
32:37Um, we're spending the money because we realise we still need to improve our customer experience
32:42and our technology.
32:44How far are you down that journey?
32:46Because you've now spent nearly four, well, you've spent four million pounds on your website
32:51or, or on developing this?
32:53No, we've only spent on the, on the website probably around 800,000, including consultants.
32:58Which is still quite a lot.
32:59Oh, right.
33:00So, there's 3.2 million that you are spending.
33:04You're spending every year 1.2 million to 1.6 to-
33:08Yeah, our overheads, so we've got, uh, wage costs, marketing costs, um, you know, costs
33:14for running the business.
33:15Okay, so explain to me the rest of your overheads.
33:19Yeah, so our marketing costs, um, uh, per annum are approximately 400,000.
33:24And, um, so we've got wage costs of around, um, 200,000 to 300,000.
33:30Okay.
33:32Well, that's 700,000.
33:35That's, that's, that's, that's less than a half.
33:37Um, what we also have is, um, uh, uh, the cost for running the, uh, the website, the, the,
33:43the licensing fees, et cetera, there's about 100,000 there.
33:47Oh, my Lord.
33:48I know.
33:48Oh, I know.
33:50I feel, I feel, I feel what Peter feels now.
33:55I'll come and cry on your shoulder later.
33:57Oh, oh, it hurts.
33:59100,000 monitoring fees?
34:01Who, who's charging you 100,000?
34:03100,000, so that's 100,000, uh, for the year.
34:07To do what?
34:08That, that is an absolute fortune.
34:11You've spent 800,000 pound on a website with ongoing, inbuilt, ongoing costs of 100,000 pound
34:18a year.
34:19These were experts that advised us to do that.
34:22Of course they were.
34:23So we've got the website, we've got 100,000 pound a year, we're still less than half of
34:28the cost of the business, so what else are we spending money on?
34:31We've got consultancy fees as well.
34:33Oh, my goodness, who else are you paying?
34:35So we've got a marketing consultant that is, uh, full-time.
34:40How much?
34:41About 90,000 just on the marketing.
34:44Consultancy fees.
34:45We spend on advertising, we spend, you know, obviously there's a lot of marketing costs
34:50at the end of the day associated with the business.
34:53That's brilliant, and, and, and it's lovely to see you committing resource to marketing,
34:58but my goodness, do you know what I feel like?
35:00I feel like you are really good, and you're paying other people to kind of knock you off
35:06course.
35:07Yeah, and actually, last year was when we realised that, and we made some quite sweeping changes,
35:16because it could have been a lot worse than it was.
35:22Phil and Helm, you've got a big issue here, in my opinion, um, and I, if you don't mind
35:28me saying it in a nice way, I think the big issue is you.
35:31Okay.
35:31I've got a great business on the outset, real excitement when I first heard it.
35:36Yeah.
35:36What we've ensued over the last period of time of talking about this business, we've made
35:41this business, in my opinion, completely non-investable.
35:45It's almost impossible to invest in a business like this.
35:49When you're running it so badly.
35:53So, for that reason, sadly, I'm out.
35:56Thank you, Peter.
35:58Phil, Helen, um, you've done a remarkable thing, and, you know, the fact remains that
36:04you've managed to build a business that's turning over millions of pounds every single
36:07year, so there's clearly some decisions that have been made correctly.
36:12But, um, as an investor, my, my, my risk appetite isn't quite there for this business, so I'm going
36:17to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
36:22Do you know, I, I can really understand where you struggle, because I've been exactly there.
36:27I have made so many mistakes in my business.
36:31And, in my opinion, it's how you react to those things, it's how you evolve, it's how you learn
36:38from those things.
36:39That's what's important.
36:42Um, but, unfortunately for me, this is not an area that I'm passionate about, and I don't
36:46think I'm the right dragon for you guys.
36:48So, for that reason, I'm out.
36:52Appreciate it.
36:56Look, I think you've done a great job, but you've got, you've been going for 10 years.
37:02Mm-hmm.
37:0210 years is a long time, and I don't believe that after 10 years, you've got room for an
37:08investor.
37:10So, for that reason, I'm out.
37:12Okay.
37:13Thank you, Tuka.
37:18Um, I love so much about this, and I, I really like the both of you as well.
37:24I do like your honesty, and you've built something amazing here.
37:28I'm not out yet, by the way, but I do want to hear something.
37:33Mm-hmm.
37:33How are you going to make money?
37:35Because, at the moment, you're growing revenue.
37:39Yeah.
37:41But, what changes to turn this revenue growth into profit?
37:48So, I think when we did the transformation, we, um, had an infrastructure cost that was
37:53a baseline.
37:55Now, what we need to do is we need to accelerate our sales growth, because we're only working
37:59at probably 50% efficiency in terms of our cost base.
38:03So, we can probably double our sales and, and not have to increase our costs at the same
38:08rate, and the proven experience, expertise that you guys have.
38:12I think you would provide that mentorship and guidance to make sure that, you know, we're
38:17following the right tracks.
38:19Oh, this is, this is difficult, because I totally, I do worry about your decision-making processes.
38:26And, honestly, if I got involved, I can't run your business.
38:30I can be there for the big moments, but I can't help you on a day-to-day decision-making
38:36process.
38:36I appreciate that, but we are making decisions, lots of them, every single day.
38:42These few decisions that have been absolutely pivotal were technically two decisions out
38:50of multiple, so...
38:52Big ones, though.
38:53Agreed, but, you know, not, not to provide excuses.
38:58We thought we had gone down the right route.
39:02We genuinely did think that was the right thing to do.
39:05And, guys, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
39:10I love this so much, and I like you so much, I'm going to make you an offer.
39:16We haven't heard it yet.
39:18Hide your cards.
39:20Just put your hands behind your back.
39:22Behind me.
39:24I, I, so I know how I can help you.
39:27However, you need more help than you think you need.
39:30But I do believe that we can turn this into a profitable business.
39:33And got ahead of the market.
39:37You asked for £100,000 for 5%.
39:40So I'm going to offer you all the money.
39:43But I want 15% of the business.
39:47Okay.
39:47Thank you, Deborah.
39:52We appreciate all your comments today.
39:55And, Deborah, thank you very much for the offer.
39:59We're willing to accept.
40:01Oh, excellent!
40:02I'd like you to accept that.
40:03Good, good, good.
40:05Well done.
40:06Great.
40:06Great.
40:07A perfect ending for Phil and Helen, who've secured £100,000.
40:14Oh, I didn't expect that.
40:19As well as the backing of a dragon, with the business nows, to help balance the books.
40:25Deborah, day one, you go through the P&L, you strip out all the consultants and retainers,
40:29and you've got £500,000 profit.
40:31You pay a dividend, you've got your money back.
40:34I'm so happy you met her.
40:35Boy, do they need you.
40:37As you'll have seen, there was some quite honest opinions, and then Deborah came right in at the end, saving
40:44the day.
40:44So, I'm absolutely delighted that she's agreed to come on board and help us.
41:03I'm Gordon Leatherdale, and my business operates two fantastic consumer brands.
41:07One is for dogs, one is for humans.
41:10Oh, my God.
41:11It confuses everyone, to be blunt about it, including me, sometimes.
41:16Dog makery.
41:19There's dog, and then there's gin, and then there's chai tea.
41:25This is going to be ridiculous. I just know it's going to be ridiculous.
41:28A lot of things.
41:31As I step out of the lift, I'll be thinking about being in the jaws of jaws.
41:36It's the terror of getting things wrong, I think, as much as anything else.
41:39But we'll have to wait and see what the dragons think.
41:51Good evening, dragons.
41:52My name's Gordon, and I'm the founder of a business that operates two fantastic consumer brands.
41:57And I'm here today seeking £100,000 for 10% of the equity of the business.
42:03What do we do?
42:05Well, brand one, if you like, Natural Noble, is all about exploring flavour.
42:08Many people, as you'll probably know, are accustomed to and very comfortable with creating their own food, their own dishes
42:13from scratch, and so on and so forth.
42:15And we say, why not extend that and apply that to making your own drinks and drink flavours at home?
42:20That's where we step in, with our fantastic range of make-your-own drink kits.
42:25Easy to use.
42:27They range from sets of botanicals and ingredients you infuse in liquor.
42:32We have a range of cocktail-making kits and a range of, if you like, novel infusion bags to bring
42:37consumers flavours they wouldn't otherwise try.
42:40And the products are suitable for those who drink alcohol and those who don't.
42:44The second brand is called Dog by the Hob.
42:46It's a fantastic range of dog cookie-making kits that accounts for about 11% of our sales.
42:54Drugs, that ends my pitch.
42:55I'm not looking forward to your questions, but I'm here now.
43:00That's it.
43:01Would you like to try some products we created earlier?
43:03Gordon, you can smile now.
43:04Thank you very much.
43:06That's terrifying, but thank you.
43:08You did great.
43:09You did great.
43:10We'd love to try your products.
43:10All right, thank you very much.
43:14A selection of products for flavouring drinks and a kit for making canine-friendly cookies comprise the eclectic offering from
43:23Gordon Leatherdale.
43:26So there's an espresso martini on your left.
43:28Is that alcohol one?
43:29That is alcohol, yes.
43:30And what's that one?
43:31It's a cocoa vanilla chai.
43:33Gordon is seeking £100,000.
43:37If you look onto your chair, you'll see a range of products.
43:39You can try the dog cookies if you want, but you may choose not to.
43:43In exchange for a 10% share in his business.
43:47What do I do with this?
43:49They're the more involved kits, Stephen.
43:51And you use those basically to infuse larger quantities of cheap gin or vodka, basically.
43:57Their curiosity may have been piqued.
44:00That's nice.
44:00So this is a teabag for your tea?
44:02So it's putting flavour tea, right, so all the character and flavour of cake with no calories.
44:10But will the dragon's cash prove as easy to raise as their initial interest?
44:44Gordon, hi.
44:45And I was sat there terrified.
44:47We'd just moved into a new premises and so on and so forth.
44:50And I thought, well, what the hell do we do when, you know, internet sales drop off?
44:54I suppose I got paranoid and slightly frightened that the business was going to be taken out, taken from under
44:59our feet, as it were.
45:00So as a group of people, we just had a chat and thought, we all own dogs.
45:05And we all thought, well, we'll come up with this idea and just see what happens.
45:09So it's really a question of, I suppose you could call desperation more than anything else.
45:13So you started this brand, the Dog Biscuit brand, because you thought this was going to fail.
45:19And has it failed?
45:21No, I thought this, well, I thought there was the possibility...
45:24Of failure.
45:25Of failure or a massive reduction in turnover.
45:28And you'll see from our figures later, I'm sure one of you will ask, that we saw a big deterioration.
45:32I'm going to ask you now, tell us your figures.
45:33Sure.
45:34Fine.
45:34In 2019, we turned over £150,000.
45:39In 2020, we turned over £560,000.
45:43In 2021, we turned over £580,000.
45:47And in 2022, our turnover dropped to £387,000.
45:54In 2023, it was £535,000 turnover.
45:59And last year, the turnover is actually £617,000.
46:03And the net somewhere north of £50,000.
46:07OK, so looking at these numbers, it tells me that it looks like 2020, the COVID year,
46:11was the big boost to your business.
46:14But I can also see that you went down a bit in 2022 when lockdown was over, but you bounced
46:19back up again.
46:20Yes.
46:20Is that when the Dog Biscuits were launched?
46:22Yeah, I mean, it was at the same time.
46:24But the Dog Biscuits only...
46:26So, for instance, last year, we did £68,000 of the docket.
46:28It's about 11% of the turnover.
46:30So it's still a very small part of the business.
46:32I don't know if I'm answering your question properly, Mrs. Marron.
46:35Sorry.
46:35I'm just trying to understand...
46:37I'm still trying to understand why Dog Biscuits, because your business is doing all right.
46:42You're...
46:42I can't disagree with that at all, to be honest, Mrs. Marron.
46:46You can call me Susie, by the way.
46:48Yeah.
46:48Sorry, Susie, I do apologise.
46:51It's something I think about pretty much every day.
46:53I want to keep it, because I enjoy it.
46:56But our focus, I think, has to be on the natural and noble side of things.
47:00And one of the marketplaces we were selling on...
47:02I'm really enjoying this.
47:03You don't have a cigar on it, do you?
47:05Well, I'm quite...
47:06I can get you a rollie if you want one.
47:08I'm sure we can...
47:11Where's your accent from?
47:12Because you say these terms, somewhat and so forth.
47:15They're so...
47:16That's not accent.
47:17What is it?
47:17It's just...
47:18It is very...
47:18That's just his vocabulary.
47:20Yeah.
47:21Education.
47:21Where did you go to school?
47:22I went to a place called King's in Taunton in Somerset.
47:25Right.
47:26Somerset.
47:26Give me six.
47:27Deborah Stecker.
47:28Deborah Stecker.
47:28In fact, I know King's very well in the UK.
47:31Right.
47:31Oh, yes.
47:31Oh, yes.
47:32It's a great place.
47:32Great for rugby.
47:33I was born in Taunton.
47:34Oh, were you?
47:34Yes, I was born.
47:35So, you must have played against Wellington.
47:37Oh, that's right, yeah.
47:38How old are you?
47:40Do I really have to ask that question?
47:41Yes, you do.
47:42I'm...
47:43I'm 50.
47:44I've just turned 50.
47:45I only ask because my husband was at Wellington School.
47:47Oh, was he?
47:47I'm checking whether or not he played rugby against you.
47:49Would I have played against him?
47:50He's 50...
47:51No, he's 50...
47:5458, isn't he?
47:55Oh, Deborah.
47:56I think your husband is 58, isn't he?
47:59Deborah.
47:59I don't know how old he is.
48:01She's a son, man.
48:01No-one knows.
48:0360.
48:03Deborah, you've got a toy boy.
48:04Yes, he is 60.
48:05He was 60 last year.
48:0660.
48:06OK.
48:07Well, we always used to come away from Wellington.
48:08Which I normally had a couple of black eyes and stuff.
48:10They were ferocious.
48:11They were...
48:12They were hard.
48:13So and so is.
48:14They were good, though.
48:15They were very good, yeah.
48:16I know.
48:16I know.
48:18Anyway, sorry.
48:19I don't know who I interrupted there, but is anybody else mid-flow or shall I carry on?
48:23Sorry, Deborah.
48:24I don't know.
48:25I'm half pissed.
48:27So what do you want for this business?
48:31Where's the growth?
48:32Is it more of the same?
48:34Or do you see that you've got a sort of hero product here and you're going to build onto it?
48:40Goodness, that's a great...
48:43Sorry, that's a fantastic question.
48:49I think more of the same because I think there's still great opportunity to grow our brand in new channels.
48:56And I think particularly with our, if you like, larger sets.
48:59Because I think they look...
48:59They're much more of a retail proposition, I think, than an online proposition.
49:04And what is your hero product?
49:05You know, there's usually an outstanding one.
49:08Sure.
49:09It's the gin and the rum.
49:11And have you ever done collaborations with people like the Craft Gin Club?
49:15Have you ever worked to get more exposure with...
49:19The honest answer is no.
49:21We get the odd occasion.
49:22We had an interesting conversation with the Natural History Museum.
49:25They wanted kind of us to do a marry-up, as it were, regarding all the botanicals.
49:30But beyond that, no, we haven't done any other sort of collaborations.
49:32We do get asked from time to time.
49:34And are these coming to you, or are you going to get them?
49:38They come to us.
49:39And we're working on a project now, actually, which is about 1,500 pudding teas that will
49:45go into a goodie bag for some event somewhere in either London or Birmingham next month.
49:50I'm trying to pinpoint, A, where it is, where that's coming from, and where it can go.
49:57Understood.
49:58And it feels a little bit, at the moment, like you're here, you've got this lovely product,
50:02and people sort of accidentally find you.
50:04Correct, yes.
50:05Which might be why you struggle when I say, where do you want this to go?
50:09Yes.
50:09Because I'm not sure you're clear yet, are you?
50:11No, I'm much clearer than I used to be now.
50:15I'm quite pleased with the fact we've navigated the last three years, but I have a much clearer
50:19vision for the business, and that is about selling product to consumers.
50:22That's the route I want to take.
50:25Whatever we can get ancillary to that would be fantastic.
50:28But I just want to make that clear.
50:32Gordon, just picking up on what Debra said there, it's a confusing picture.
50:38OK.
50:39And it left me feeling like maybe you're not really driving this business.
50:43Maybe the business is kind of driving you.
50:46Because it doesn't seem to be that there's much intentional strategy taking place here.
50:52What do you want to push?
50:54I want to push the larger botanical sets.
50:56Yeah.
50:56I want to push these products here.
50:58There's a range of whatever it is, seven of them, which...
51:00There's like some coffee thing there as well.
51:01Yeah, this is a kind of flavors for coffee bag, which is just used.
51:04And that's something I really want to push to my mind.
51:06It's a fantastic product.
51:07It looks like a slightly different brand to the other products.
51:10Yeah.
51:11We've intentionally done that.
51:12And the reason is I really want to focus on retail with this product.
51:15I want it to stand out on the shelves, basically.
51:17As the picture's gone on and on, the sort of mosaic that's emerged here is you bring a product
51:22to market, and then because maybe there's fear surrounding that new product or it doesn't
51:26fly or it doesn't take off, you start a new product.
51:28And that's how we end up selling dog cakes.
51:30There's more than a limited truth in that, Stephen, for sure.
51:33Yeah.
51:34I'm going to pull the plaster off.
51:36I like you so much as an individual and as a man that I've struggled to say what I'm going
51:42to say because I just think you're a really, really top guy.
51:46But I'm going to say that I'm out because I don't have clarity on this business and I've
51:50not been able...
51:50I've actually got...
51:51The more and more we've discussed it, I've got less clarity.
51:53Okay.
51:54Thank you very much, Eric.
51:58Gordon, I'm...
52:00I look at this, and normally I'd look at an investment, I'd have a plan in my head, but
52:07this just looks... confusing.
52:12So, for that reason, I wish you all the best in the mouth.
52:16Well, thank you very much indeed for your time.
52:23Gordon, I'm looking at you, and I think that you are a fantastic product innovator.
52:28Now, what I actually see here is you've created one, two, three, four, five different businesses.
52:34But my advice would be to pick the one and just be obsessed with it because when you do
52:41a bit of everything and you've got brilliant ideas, but when you start something and you
52:46take it to a level, everyone else can come in and copy it because you're not constantly
52:52obsessing over how to improve it, how to tweak it, how to make it better.
52:56I'm afraid I'm not the right dragon for you to take this forward because there are too
53:01many components and too many things going on.
53:03And for that reason, I'm out.
53:07I couldn't agree less with Susie.
53:10Oh, really?
53:10I couldn't agree less.
53:12You have got one product.
53:14Your product is spice mixes.
53:17He sells flavors that go into drinks.
53:20That's what you've got.
53:22But I think you've just got to get on top of your branding and you probably need to tighten
53:26your range up a little bit.
53:27But I think you have to have this right.
53:29You have to be known for something.
53:31And there's not one product there that you can own.
53:35What you can do is own the space and just be the best in that space.
53:40Now, there's a reason why I, because I'm getting very passionate about this and I, you know,
53:45I can see exactly what you need to do.
53:47I wish you hadn't asked for £100,000.
53:52Because £100,000 is a significant sum of money and it is a considered investment.
53:57Yes.
53:57And when I think about what I would have to do to help you, there's an awful lot to do.
54:03I think you could share it.
54:10I think there's an opportunity there.
54:13Might have to give up a large proportion of your company.
54:16But then you might not have a business here.
54:21Can I ask what you're thinking, Peter?
54:23I think Deborah's spot on.
54:24You are a drinks, luxury drinks infusion company.
54:29I think with very considered thought, very, actually, not as much work as you think,
54:35I think you could have a great business because I think that we could make this
54:38the leading company in its field.
54:43So I would like to make you an offer.
54:46You came in asking for £100,000.
54:49For 10%.
54:49I'd like to offer you £50,000.
54:52Yeah.
54:53For 20% of your business.
54:57And I'm doing that on the basis that if Deborah would like to do the same,
55:00because it was me that stopped Deborah.
55:02Understood.
55:03Yeah.
55:04Sorry, Deborah.
55:05Can I ask, would you be interested in joining Peter in this?
55:10I would, as long as you were happy with that.
55:21Well, I'd be blunt about it.
55:23My accountant told me I was being, what's he, very generous when I started.
55:27I mean, I'd much rather part with, I'd be much more comfortable partying with 20%
55:30if you'd be happy to take 10% each for £50,000.
55:34Now, it's, it's, do you know what's really scuppered you?
55:37It's the £100,000.
55:38OK.
55:38Yeah.
55:39I mean, I, you know, I, I'm not sure I want you to give up 40% of your business.
55:42Yeah.
55:42So, so, and that's really, really important.
55:45So, absolutely, I'd be happy, but only when it feels right for you,
55:49and if it feels right for you, and if you, if it doesn't,
55:51then absolutely you shouldn't take it, except the other.
55:55I've got to be honest, I think 40% would be, would be too much.
55:58I, this sounds like a ridiculous question,
56:01and you can take me behind the bike chairs and beat the,
56:05beat the hell out of me later, but I'd be much more comfortable.
56:07I think I would stretch to 30% if that was,
56:09if that was workable for either of yourselves.
56:14Gordon, I'm going to make this easier.
56:15I, I, this is, yeah, you're, you're, you are uncomfortable about this.
56:19And it's not good.
56:21We're just not, sometimes.
56:23Understood.
56:23It just doesn't meet.
56:24And the worst thing anybody can do is get into a business relationship
56:28where one of the parties feels really uncomfortable.
56:31So, on that basis, I won't be investing an amount.
56:34Thank you very much indeed.
56:35And Gordon, likewise, on that basis,
56:38sadly, I'm going to have to say that I'm out.
56:40But I'm going to wish you all the very best.
56:42Thank you very much.
56:43Good luck, Gordon.
56:44It's been a great time meeting you.
56:45Yeah, thank you.
56:46Thank you very much.
56:46You're a lovely man.
56:48See you.
56:48Bye.
56:48Best of luck.
56:51Gordon must depart the den empty-handed.
56:54A two-dragon deal was on the table,
56:57but the entrepreneur felt the gulf inequity
57:00was simply too wide to bridge.
57:06You know what, I wanted to shake him.
57:09Quintessentially a British gentleman.
57:11Yes.
57:11But the opportunity and the doors the two of you
57:13would have opened for him, even at 40%.
57:16I wanted to go up and just be like, come on.
57:18He didn't feel it.
57:19And the worst thing you can do is having an unwilling partner.
57:25It would have been amazing to have Peter and Deborah on board,
57:30but I think ultimately giving away 40% of the business
57:32was just too much to ask.
57:35Rightly or wrongly, I'll find out in a few years' time.
57:49Next time, they seemed in shock.
57:52Oh, please, please.
57:54I'm not the biggest fan in the world of the deals that drop.
57:57I'm like, why?
57:58Why?
57:58I guess I still need to understand why.
58:01It's good to know you have a plan B.
58:03You should always have a plan B.
58:04Do you agree with that?
58:05Because I don't.
58:07He agrees with it.
58:08I can't work out whether you're looking for an investment
58:11or you're looking for a dragon to dress up as a chicken.
58:14A bit of both.
58:19Talking tech and strange true stories,
58:22AI Confidential with Hannah Fry on iPlayer
58:25will get you talking press red.
58:27You're from sounds, born in one culture, raised in another,
58:30what it means to be a transracial adoptee.
58:33Listen to Made in China.
58:39You're from sounds, born in one culture.
58:43You're from sounds, born in one culture.
58:45You're from sounds, born in one culture.
58:46You're from sounds, born in one culture.
58:46You're from sounds, born in one culture.
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