Kerry Washington: Power, Perfection & Olivia Pope

Call Her Daddy

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Transcript

00:00:00Hi, Daddy Gang. Before we get into today's conversation, I just want to share a content

00:00:04warning. This episode includes discussions of eating disorders and suicidal ideation.

00:00:10If you or someone you love needs support, we have included resources in the show notes.

00:00:15Please take care while you are listening to this week's episode. Love you guys.

00:00:32Kerry Washington, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. I can't believe I'm here. No, like,

00:00:37okay. I need to take a second to just fangirl for two seconds. Oh my God. I, this is a

00:00:43full circle

00:00:44moment for me because growing up in Pennsylvania, my mom and I would bond. Scandal, obsessing over

00:00:51Olivia Pope. I love that. But you really brought this woman to life who was so powerful and bold

00:00:59and brilliant and unapologetic in a way that I felt like I hadn't seen on television before.

00:01:05And it was such a bonding experience for my mother and I, because she was like,

00:01:08you can be like that and you can do those things. So I'm going to cry already. We're like two

00:01:13seconds

00:01:13in because, so I feel like I know your mom because of your documentary. And I think your parents are

00:01:19such a powerful example of what real loving parenting looks like. The way that they give

00:01:27you permission to be you and then like stood by you through your hardest. I mean, I learned so much

00:01:34about being a mom watching your documentary. So I love that you guys bonded watching this show.

00:01:40Lori's going to watch this and be like at home screaming like, Brian, did you hear Kerry Washington

00:01:45just say my name? No, no, no. Thank you.

00:01:48They really gave you, they have given you permission that you have then like taken on. I mean,

00:01:52you are your own beast. I don't want to take anything away from you. But without them, like I

00:01:57couldn't have achieved what I have achieved. And so to, yes, have a mother that was watching with

00:02:02me being like, look at this woman, look what she is embodying and what she's doing to now sit across

00:02:07from you. It's very surreal for me. So thank you for taking time out of your day to join me

00:02:11on this

00:02:12show. This is an honor. Getting right into it, though, because speaking of her being so bold and

00:02:17obviously, you are also in your own right bold. But like, when you first took on Olivia Pope,

00:02:23which is something very big to take on. Yeah. Did you realize how much that role was going to

00:02:30shift the conversation around women on television at the time?

00:02:34So yes and no. Like I, all of the press when scandal came out, a very big portion of the

00:02:41press

00:02:42when scandal came out was about the fact that it had been almost 40 years since a black woman had

00:02:47been the lead on a network drama. And I was, I think, 37 at the time. So in my lifetime,

00:02:51I had never seen it. A lot of my peers, we'd never seen it. And so there was all of

00:02:55this talk

00:02:55about how historic the show was. We didn't know if the show was going to work. We didn't know if

00:03:00anybody would watch the show. But that kind of pressure around it, I felt like if we don't win,

00:03:07it might be another 40 years before a woman of color has the chance to be the number one on

00:03:12a show.

00:03:12But that's a lot of pressure to also put on yourself.

00:03:15But also, again, it was an exercise of like really trying to be clear about what I can control and

00:03:21what I can't. Like I cannot control whether people turn on their televisions on Thursday night and

00:03:25watch my show. What I can control is my work ethic, like pouring my heart into it, leaving it all

00:03:31out

00:03:31on the court, like doing everything that I can do to make it great. And also on the marketing side,

00:03:36like we had that whole idea of live tweet the show. Like I can do everything in my power

00:03:40to try to make it a success. But in the end, I can't control what happens.

00:03:44It's a great point. And in those beginning days, like what qualities did you love about her when

00:03:52you first read the material?

00:03:54So when I first read it, I literally threw the script across the room because I was like,

00:03:59this is me. Like it felt like it was written for me. It was. But also like there were 20

00:04:05other

00:04:05actresses that felt the same way. So I do audition multiple times. But it I think what I loved about

00:04:10her was, it's so funny, because this is very related to the show I have coming out now as well.

00:04:15What I loved about her was that she had the presentation of power, like she performed power

00:04:23in the world. And she was very powerful. But also behind closed doors, there was this contradiction

00:04:29of being like, so heartbroken. And like her personal life was a mess, just a fucking mess.

00:04:35Yes. And so that that dynamic, that duality, I really identified with, I really identified

00:04:41with like the presentation of self versus the truth of self.

00:04:44I love that, too, because I agree, which we're going to get to your new show. It's like

00:04:48the presentation of a woman. Most people just take that at face value.

00:04:52Yeah. And it's like, that's never it's never as it seems much more complicated and cool than that.

00:04:59We have more going on, please. Of course we do. In what ways did she challenge you in those

00:05:05beginning days? Well, I, I think she taught me a lot about leadership. Because the character was the

00:05:15leader. You know, she had her own company. She was the leader of all the gladiators. She was the most

00:05:20powerful woman in the White House. And in real life, I was number one on the call sheet and

00:05:26eventually a producer on the show. And so I think she really taught me a lot about what it looks

00:05:31like

00:05:31and feels like to be the lead character, both on and off screen. Interesting. Yeah.

00:05:37In a way, how empowering, because sometimes I feel like as a woman, like,

00:05:42that must have been kind of incredible to be given the...

00:05:46Yeah. I was like role playing leadership. There was like, like, literally, like, put on the shoes,

00:05:51put on the suits, just like you. It's your job to pretend that you have all the power in the

00:05:56room.

00:05:57It was so such a great exercise. It was like a training ground for me.

00:06:02What's also so crazy to me is as we're talking about this, I know that obviously this character

00:06:06became one of the most beloved on television of all time. You were going to completely quit

00:06:12acting altogether almost before you started Scandal. Carrie, what was going on in your life?

00:06:17It's happened a couple of times in my career. I... Because I love to act. I love acting. I love

00:06:25the research. I love like disappearing into a character. I love figuring out how she walks and

00:06:29what music she listens to and what perfume she wears and how she speaks and how she stands. I love

00:06:33all of that. The business around it, the politics around it, I don't always love. Like the people

00:06:39feeling like they can, they have agency to tell you what to do with your body or like the rejection

00:06:43and the, like all of that stuff is the competitive nature of it at times. That stuff I do not

00:06:49like.

00:06:49I don't like at all. And that's what I think has been so fascinating whenever I've gotten to sit down

00:06:53with actors and actresses. It's like, we see the glamorous parts. We see the billboards. We see

00:06:59I'm binging. The premieres. Exactly. And I'm like, I love this character. But to get to that point,

00:07:04there is a lot that goes into it. There's a lot of executives that have a say. There's a lot

00:07:09of

00:07:09marketing and branding and they want you to be malleable. And so there is also a dynamic at play

00:07:15where you're kind of a pawn as an actor and that until you garner some form of power, you kind

00:07:23of

00:07:23have to play the game and you have to decide at what expense and like, or what level are you

00:07:28willing

00:07:28to push yourself? Where do I draw the line? Right. And I think for me, that's part of why I

00:07:32really

00:07:33fell in love with producing. About halfway through Scandal, I started my production company,

00:07:37Simpson Street. We made a film called Confirmation, where I played Anita Hill. And that was like,

00:07:42oh, now I'm I get it now because I actually don't have to sit at home and wait for somebody

00:07:47to invite

00:07:47me to a party. Like I can throw my own party, which, you know, like you create your own opportunity.

00:07:53And that that has been very freeing for me. And it is freeing. And also to give credit to like,

00:07:59everyone needs the stepping stone of you have to go work in the capacity that you see what you like

00:08:05and you don't like. That's right. Then as you build your power and your name, you can then be the

00:08:10person that maybe changes things through your production company to be like, I want things

00:08:13to run this way because I've experienced the latter. Yeah. And I think, as you know, from your

00:08:19journey, like you don't always know exactly what you're doing in the beginning. But I learned from

00:08:24role playing power and Olivia Pope, like sometimes you just put the shoes on and walk down the

00:08:28hall and you figure it out along the way, right? Like you grab your Prada purse and you like you

00:08:33step into it and you'll discover it along the way. If you ask for help and you're willing to make

00:08:37mistakes and you just keep like falling forward, men are really allowed to fall forward, fall upward.

00:08:43And I feel like we have to give ourselves permission to do that, too. Like a mistake is not the

00:08:47end.

00:08:47A mistake is an opportunity to learn and grow, iterate, shift, move forward.

00:08:52But that's why it's also so nice hearing from someone like you who, again, we see in media and

00:08:57you've had such success. And that's why I wanted to kind of go back to those OG days of like

00:09:02you

00:09:03walking into Shonda Rhimes office and you walk in and on the walls, it says Shondaland.

00:09:08It's her name. I was like, what? What were you expecting when you walked in for that first

00:09:14meeting? I think I was worried. I was nervous. I was nervous because she had so much power and

00:09:21like to walk into it. I wasn't comfortable yet in my power. So to sit down with somebody who was

00:09:28comfortable enough with her power to have the walls covered in her name and like she was very

00:09:33comfortable in her power. I think I was nervous about what that would look like, what it would

00:09:39feel like if we would get along. And it was amazing. Like five minutes into the conversation,

00:09:45I was like, I'm obsessed with her. I want to live in Shondaland. I want to be a citizen of

00:09:50Shondaland.

00:09:51You know, she's she's so generous and she's such a genius. And I and you realize like, oh,

00:09:58society tells us that we should be intimidated or scared or uncomfortable around a powerful woman.

00:10:03But there's nothing dangerous about this. When you think back to your time with Shonda and you both

00:10:11now being such obviously powerful women, is there like a memory or story that you think really paints

00:10:17the picture of your dynamic over those seven seasons together?

00:10:24Hmm. Oh, there's so many. But the one I that really comes to mind first is when I was pregnant

00:10:34with my first child that I had. So my second child, but first that I first that I birthed.

00:10:39Um, I was so nervous to tell Shonda because I knew that it could be very disruptive to our

00:10:47shooting schedule and to our work environment. And I was determined to work for as long as I could and,

00:10:52you know, to keep the show going. And but so I was worried. I was nervous to tell her and

00:10:57I asked her

00:10:58to come to my trailer. And not only was she happy for me, she like actually jumped up and down

00:11:05with joy

00:11:06in my trailer. Like, I couldn't believe it. She was genuinely thrilled for me and committed to

00:11:15helping me do this in a healthy, sane, positive way while also protecting our show.

00:11:22That is so refreshing to hear because I think they're very far and few between people who have

00:11:28ever had that experience with their quote unquote boss or someone that they're in a job with. Right.

00:11:33Um, and also I think going back to what you had said of like, it had almost been 40 years

00:11:40since we

00:11:41had seen a black woman have a role lead in a drama network television. So, so this pressure on you,

00:11:47I remember reading like the network said casting you as a lead was a risk. And Shonda was so, so,

00:11:55um, open about wanting you as that person. Like how did those comments affect both of you though?

00:12:02Hmm. I can't speak for Shonda, but we knew that we, we knew that we were lucky to have each

00:12:10other

00:12:10that we, you know, so often in these spaces, you're the only woman in the room or the only

00:12:16black woman in the room. And so to be able to have each other and then Judy Smith who inspired

00:12:21the

00:12:21character and, um, another really amazing writer in the writers room, Ramla Muhammad, who is kind of,

00:12:26we've grown up together because she was a research assistant initially on Scandal. And then I brought her

00:12:31with me to little fires everywhere. And now she's the showrunner on reasonable doubt,

00:12:35which we produce. So she's, that's been also really special. So that, that dynamic,

00:12:40I think Shonda and I were like, we had each other, we had each other's backs and there was

00:12:45always a great deal of respect. I knew she was my boss, but she would also say to me, like,

00:12:50I want your thoughts, but I would say like four things that I loved about a script before I ever

00:12:56gave any feedback that was to change something. Right. Like, and I wasn't manufacturing that it

00:13:00was really like, there's so much that I love about this. And also there's this one thing I'm bumping

00:13:05on. And like now, obviously we know it's such a success, but, and, and in that moment, hearing

00:13:12from executives, like this is a risk, then you have success. Like, was there any part of you that

00:13:18was so happy to be able to prove people wrong? Like, was there any element that you were still

00:13:24looking a little bit back to how they didn't potentially want you in the beginning days?

00:13:28I think the thing that I felt most was excited that it wasn't going to be another 40 years,

00:13:34like halfway through scandal, ABC launched how to get away with murder. And you had Quantico,

00:13:39which was not a black woman, but a woman of color. And you had Empire on another network on Fox,

00:13:45like you had suddenly networks were like, maybe it's not so much of a risk. In fact, maybe we need

00:13:50to find our black lead. Like they were really clued into the cultural value of allowing black

00:13:56women to stand at the center of a story. And I think it was so exciting for audiences too. Like

00:14:02there was this mutual excitement. There were people who loved the show because suddenly they

00:14:07were seeing themselves on television and that was so fulfilling. And so just like, I felt so proud to

00:14:13be offering my sisters that opportunity. And then there were all these people that were like,

00:14:18I knew Olivia Pope was a black woman they were closest to in their life. Like they were being

00:14:22allowed a window into the life of a black woman that they didn't have any black women that they

00:14:28were that intimate with. And both of those things were so exciting to me because they were both kind

00:14:32of collapsing the idea that there's a group of people that don't matter. Right.

00:14:38What you're essentially also saying is scandal opened the door and in a lot of ways, because it was

00:14:44like, had this not yet been successful, you're right, it could have been another 40 years. And

00:14:48instead, it actually propelled so many shows to immediately get on air because of its success.

00:14:55So because of that, we need to play a little rapid fire. Oh, okay. No pressure. I'll participate a

00:15:02little bit. Okay. You know, I also rewatched it recently. So like, don't worry.

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00:16:35advisory services via SoFi Wealth LLC. What do you think was the worst crisis you can remember that

00:16:42Olivia ever had to clean up? I loved the very, very first crisis in our pilot because I was like,

00:16:49oh, from jump, this show is diving into issues. Like the fact that I was protecting a member of the

00:16:54queer community in the military, I was like, oh, we're not only is she having an affair,

00:16:59not only is it an interracial relationship, not only it's like also my client is gay. Oh,

00:17:04let's fucking go. We're hitting it right out the gate. Like this show, it's like like it or leave

00:17:08it. Yes. Truly. Yeah. No, I was thinking about that too. And then I was like, you know what? I

00:17:11also would just have to go like the election rigging. I mean, that broke my heart. That broke my heart.

00:17:17I was like, I of all the things and the cases. I don't even want to talk about that in

00:17:21the world

00:17:22we live in right now. I know. So scary. Truly. Yes. But I was like horrifying. Citron and the

00:17:27defiance Ohio. I was stressed. Yes. Well, I think also Olivia getting kidnapped. Oh, that was that's

00:17:34what I was like. What is happening? Yeah. It was put our girl back in Washington. That hair was insane.

00:17:39I just remember being like, why are they doing this to her? Fitz fix it. Okay. He did. He tried.

00:17:44He did.

00:17:44In your opinion, what is the most iconic Olivia Pope line of all time?

00:17:51It has to be. It's handled. It has to be. It's the one that gets quoted to me most often.

00:17:56Yeah. Is it's handled. I agree. I also wrote down. I know this isn't the most iconic,

00:18:00but I remember this because I was like, I wish I could have said this to an ex-boyfriend.

00:18:05Tell me. Tell me. You said, I'm not the girl the guy gets at the end of the movie. I'm

00:18:08not

00:18:08a fantasy. If you want me, earn me. Until then, we're done.

00:18:14I was like, why did I not use that on a boy? Like that is gold.

00:18:19There's still time. Okay. Fair. Well, I'm married. So I'll tell Matt if we're in a fight

00:18:23one day. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you don't get it. Okay. What was

00:18:27the most fun episode to film and why? Oh, wow. Anytime we had like big state galas, like this

00:18:37is probably not a nice thing to say, but actually the episode when Fitz got shot was so much fun

00:18:42to shoot. Like that dress, I'm obsessed with that dress. And it just was so dramatic. And

00:18:47the exteriors, it was just a really, I remember being in that hospital. We shot at a hospital

00:18:51on location. It was truly this like very windy night. And so I remember like the moving camera

00:18:56and like the wind is blowing my hair in the gown. It was like, this shot is great.

00:19:00I know it is. Stunning. I was very stressed. Also, I loved when you would wear gloves. Oh yeah,

00:19:06the gloves. You would go all out. Sometimes directors would be like, do you need gloves?

00:19:10We'd be like, yes. Yes. It needs to be so over the top. Olivia would. Yes. If you had to

00:19:15choose,

00:19:16what was the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment? If I had to choose,

00:19:26I think, I think the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment was the first time. And this was Ava

00:19:33DuVernay's episode. The first time we got to go to Vermont. I just think that house was so beautiful.

00:19:40The like helicopter landing on the lawn. The, I think that whole moment was just so beyond

00:19:46dreamy. And you know, that we got to actually see Vermont was pretty spectacular, which was

00:19:51really Calabasas, not Vermont, but stop. Stop. I'm like, you never told me that. What are you

00:19:56talking about? Carrie? No, you're in Vermont. Oh my God. Making jam. Oh my God. I can't unsee that

00:20:02now. Okay. You have your phone. Yes. Would you call Tony and ask him what he thinks his favorite

00:20:11go-to iconic romantic moment of the two of you was? He might be on set. Let's try it. Let's

00:20:16try it.

00:20:16If not, I'll tell you mine. Way less interesting. Well, you have to tell me yours regardless.

00:20:21He's going to think something's wrong. He's like, why is she calling? I only, I almost, you know.

00:20:26Hi, Carrie. Hi, Tony.

00:20:30I'm, I'm, I'm in the middle of an interview and I got dared to call you.

00:20:38Sorry, I have to ask you a question. Are you ready? Should I say, oh, yeah, you should

00:20:42always say, oh, where are you right now? Just give the, give the fans some context. Where

00:20:46are you? I'm in Washington, DC. Of course you are.

00:20:49Uh, we're doing X. My kids are here in Jane's. They're going to take them to see our show.

00:20:54Should Joey? Oh, Tony's doing a show in DC at arena. Everybody should go see it. Okay.

00:21:00Yes. Um, so, so I have to ask you what you think the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment on

00:21:09the show ever was.

00:21:12Whoa.

00:21:14When we got, we had a few.

00:21:16We did have a few. I mean, the one minute. I didn't say the one minute. I probably should

00:21:22have said one minute. Is that what you were going to say? No. What were you going to say?

00:21:26I was thinking of having sex in the lecture for a closet.

00:21:29Oh, there's that one. That was like the, somebody was getting baptized. Like one of

00:21:34your children, right? We were such bad people.

00:21:39My favorite one minute was sitting in your apartment.

00:21:42That's the first one. The first one minute. Yeah. The first one. Well, no. Well, in, in

00:21:48chronological order, the hallway. Yeah. But, but on the show in filming, it was in my apartment.

00:21:54Yeah. I said, I said Vermont. I was like the first time we got to see Vermont. Oh, Vermont.

00:22:00Yeah. That was right. Yeah. That was pretty good. That was one that Ava directed, right?

00:22:04Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Good memory. Thank you, Tony. All right. I'll let you go. I love you

00:22:09madly. I'm good. I'm just in the middle of doing. So we called her daddy. We called Olivia's daddy.

00:22:23Okay. Bye. Love you. I'm having heart palpitations. I'm so happy he picked up.

00:22:32He's such a busy person. I didn't expect him to pick up.

00:22:35Not Tony being in DC right now. In DC.

00:22:51So it was like one of those rare, like, I guess for like events in churches, maybe she wears,

00:22:55so it was a baptism. So she had a dress on. So then in the closet, we could do what

00:22:58we did in

00:22:59the closet. It's insane. So you two have stayed friends since. Yes. Although it's hard for me to

00:23:05get him on the phone because he mostly hangs out with my husband, which is hilarious. So like when

00:23:09he's in New York, I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, well, I'm seeing Nnamdi tomorrow. I'm like,

00:23:12can I see you? But yes, we have, we've all remained friends. I just hiked with Katie Lowe's last week.

00:23:19Yeah. Do you think they made it in the show at the end?

00:23:24I love, I know it's very hard to end a show. I love how the show ended with them like

00:23:28seeing

00:23:28each other and just that classic high. I think it's really sweet because it lets you kind of

00:23:33imagine however you want it to be. But I know a lot of people really hope for them that they're

00:23:38in

00:23:38Vermont making jam and happy. And I was going to say one of my favorite moments was, I think it

00:23:43was

00:23:44one of his, one of his birthday dinners and you guys meet out on the lawn and you're like,

00:23:50you cheated on your mistress with your girlfriend or whatever. And he was like, don't ever call

00:23:54yourself that. And he said, I love you. I'm in love with you. You're the love of my life. And

00:24:01I,

00:24:01the way he said it, and he's like, you control me, my every being.

00:24:05Own me. Yeah, it's really, it's a good one.

00:24:07You're like, you own me. I was like, oh my God, Shauna, stop. Like, I'm not okay.

00:24:11She's such a romantic. She's such an incredible writer. I think she's, it's, it's a gift how she

00:24:17gets to the thing that will make us all like turn into a puddle.

00:24:21I'm not over that he just answered. I'm like, I'm just like blushing. I'm like,

00:24:25and hearing you two talk. I'm like, okay, we're moving on. Okay.

00:24:28Um, okay. What is a personal moment in your life? You got a little clout because people around you,

00:24:36your kids were there and everyone thought you were Olivia Pope. They're talking to you as Olivia

00:24:40Pope and your kids are like, oh mom, you're actually cool. So I would think I would, my kids

00:24:45do. Let me be very clear. My kids do not think I'm cool. Let's just be very clear. Cause they

00:24:50will

00:24:50have like go on a national campaign to refute me if I attempt to assert that they think I'm cool.

00:24:55They do not think I'm cool, but they were my daughter. So my daughter's first concert was T

00:25:03Swift. And which was very sweet. This is my younger daughter. And we went with her older

00:25:08sister and a bunch of friends. But then I was like, okay, Beyonce's performing in this same

00:25:13place later this summer. Like as a black mom, there is no way that I'm not letting you see a

00:25:19black woman do in this space, what Taylor Swift did in this space. So she wasn't, she was a little

00:25:24young cause it was Renaissance. So she wasn't like a huge, she like knew Destiny's Child songs,

00:25:29but she wasn't, Renaissance wasn't really like her album. She came. And when we were walking

00:25:35through the crowd, people were like, Olivia. And she was like, who is Olivia? Like she,

00:25:40she was like, what, who do they think you are? Like, that is not your name. And it was a

00:25:44little

00:25:44weird to her how crazy people were going until backstage at like the friends and family were set.

00:25:50First of all, she loved the concert. Like that was the night I witnessed my youngest daughter

00:25:54become a stand, like a Beyonce beehive. Like she was like blown away. Yeah. And then Cowboy

00:26:02Carter is her album. Like we went to, we had a girls weekend in Vegas to see her together.

00:26:06You're like, you're welcome.

00:26:07So yes, I put you on.

00:26:08Exactly. But that night we went backstage to like the friends and family thing afterward. And she,

00:26:15people were asking to take pictures with me, which she thought was really weird.

00:26:18And then she was like, well, can I get a picture with Bieber? And I was like, Hundo P.

00:26:25I think that was like the one moment where she was like, my mom might be slightly cool.

00:26:31She made me pull some strings for me.

00:26:33For a half a second.

00:26:34Okay. So you had some clout for a minute.

00:26:36Clout with the kids. I love that for you.

00:26:38Evaporate.

00:26:39Do you believe Olivia Pope eventually became the president of the United States?

00:26:47Do you?

00:26:48I go back and forth because I think a part of her was so.

00:26:52Of course she could be like if she wanted to be, she could have been.

00:26:55But there was a part of her that just loved her wine, her popcorn hanging out.

00:26:59And she liked being behind the scenes in moments. And so would she really want the

00:27:07fiasco that comes with? I don't know.

00:27:09I think she's more of a behind the scenes person. I do.

00:27:13And to clarify, like I would have voted for her.

00:27:16Oh, definitely. I would have.

00:27:18There's no better option.

00:27:19Absolutely.

00:27:20But for her mental health.

00:27:21I'd vote for her today.

00:27:22I would vote for her ten toes down, just ready to go.

00:27:28Phone banking, knocking on doors. I'd be doing it all.

00:27:30I'd be ready. I'd be ready.

00:27:31Okay. Are there any scandal reboot or movie conversations in the works?

00:27:35There aren't. Although this joke about Chase Infinity and Tariq being our children,

00:27:40this is like the joke that will not die. And I love it so much.

00:27:44They actually do like she has my smile and Tariq has his smile. It's so absurd.

00:27:49It is kind of weird.

00:27:50Um, so we actually just started a family text thread.

00:27:55Dad, Tariq texted me yesterday and was like,

00:27:58Chase, I don't, I know you don't have Carrie's number, but now it's,

00:28:02so I was like, do I bring Tony into this text thread? It's hilarious. Yeah.

00:28:06We can all pray. Yeah.

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00:31:01One of the most impactful moments on Scandal was when Olivia Pope had an abortion. And when I

00:31:10interviewed Shonda, she told me that the network pushed back on that storyline and she really had

00:31:17to fight to keep it in. We didn't know if we were going to air that night, like down to

00:31:21the wire. I was

00:31:22like, what are they going to do? Are they going to like show reruns? Because they were locked in

00:31:26the disagreement about what it could and could not be.

00:31:29So you literally sat there and waited to see if it aired.

00:31:31Yeah.

00:31:32What did it feel like for you to be at the center of that moment publicly and privately with the

00:31:38network and everything?

00:31:39I was so proud. I was so proud of Shonda. I was so proud of our whole cast. I was

00:31:46so proud to have

00:31:47shot that scene. There had been characters on television who had had abortions, but it was the

00:31:52first time that you got to watch a woman actually in the procedure. And obviously, there was nothing

00:31:57graphic about the scene, but it was about her inner life and her emotional reality in that process.

00:32:03And I just, as somebody who had had an abortion and as somebody who has fought for reproductive

00:32:08rights my whole life, it feels like, I was so, so proud.

00:32:13Yeah. I know. I was going to say in your memoir, like you open up about your abortion in your

00:32:19late

00:32:20twenties and so many people connected to you. But going back to that moment, like what emotions

00:32:26did you feel not only writing about your experience, but then also releasing it to the world?

00:32:32Okay. So first I want to say that I watch a lot of clips of the show. Like a lot

00:32:38of people,

00:32:38like I catch parts of the episode that I love the most that I watched beginning to end was your

00:32:45trip

00:32:45to North Carolina. And you say in that episode, if there's one episode you're going to watch,

00:32:51it should be this one. So I just want everybody who's listening, if you have not watched the North

00:32:55Carolina episode, pause this one. We're not going to go anywhere. We will be here. Pause this episode,

00:33:01go listen to and watch the North Carolina episode where you are so brave and that work you do is

00:33:06so

00:33:07important in that episode. And then you can come back and we'll be here. We'll link it right below.

00:33:09Go ahead. Yeah. We'll be right here. So welcome back. Thank you. Now we're here. You're educated.

00:33:14Perfect. Let's go. You see what a badass she is. So, okay. I, when I was writing my memoir,

00:33:21I did that thing that people tell you to do of like, just write everything and then you can decide

00:33:26later what's really going to go in. Because if I wrote the book thinking about people reading it,

00:33:30I would have written one word. Like there would, I would not have gotten past the first page.

00:33:34So I did a lot of writing of just like vomiting on the page of experiences. And I remember the

00:33:40morning that I was like, I'm going to write about this thing. And I wrote about my abortion experience

00:33:44and I was like, that's never going to be in the book. And I like put it in the file

00:33:48of things that

00:33:48will not be in the book. And then when I handed in my book to my editor, there was a

00:33:53line later in

00:33:54the book about my abortions and miscarriages. And she was like, hey, like circled it. Can we get more

00:34:00context here? Like you just drop this in the book, but you don't share about your miscarriages or

00:34:05abortions. And I was like, oh God. And I had to like file through my computer to try to find

00:34:12it.

00:34:14And then having some distance from it, rereading it, I thought, I want to share this. I do want to

00:34:21share this because a lot of what my abortion story is about is my personal loss of privacy.

00:34:26And it is our right to privacy that has been taken away from us. That is how Roe v. Wade

00:34:32got

00:34:34reversed. And I just think I'm not a bad person because I've had an abortion. And you get to

00:34:40disagree with anybody gets to disagree with me. Absolutely. You don't think I did the right

00:34:44thing with my body. You are allowed to believe that. I don't love the judgment, but I make room

00:34:48for it because everybody is who they are. What you can't do, what I don't want you to do,

00:34:53what I'm going to fight till the day I die to make sure you can't do is to make decisions

00:34:57about

00:34:57what I do with my body. Like your opinion is yours, but my body, my bodily autonomy, my

00:35:03ability to decide how and when I start a family, that needs to be mine.

00:35:07Yes. It's so sad because it sounds so simple.

00:35:11It sounds so simple.

00:35:12And obviously, it's not for you, Carrie. Like you felt like you said, ready to tell it. But were

00:35:20you nervous at all about the reaction?

00:35:22I was. I don't know if my parents even knew at that point that I'd had an abortion.

00:35:28My husband knew, but I don't I know there were friends and family members who didn't know.

00:35:34So I was nervous. But I also felt like, I mean, I'm just what's the point? And at this point,

00:35:40I was writing this book, like really revealing myself. I talked about my eating disorder. I

00:35:43talked about my genetic background. I talked about sexual abuse. I mean, I was like, why

00:35:49would I hold this back? Right? Like, what am I what would I be protecting and holding this

00:35:53back? And I think there's our reproductive lives are so shrouded in secrecy. We don't talk

00:35:58about abortion or miscarriages or adoption or infertility or even our periods or menopause.

00:36:03And I just think we have to take the cloaks off of our reproductive lives. Like our bodies

00:36:09are our bodies. Abortion is health care. Infertility treatment is health care. Like this is it doesn't

00:36:14have to be filled with shame. It doesn't. And I think what is so hard, though, is because it is

00:36:21and that is the stigma. It does take strong women like yourself who come forward knowing there is

00:36:27going to be backlash, knowing there will be judgment, knowing that there are people in the

00:36:31world that may never look at you the same. You can lose fans because of this, because it is

00:36:35such a definitive line in the sand for some people. So it does. It hurts me to know that

00:36:42it's also at the cost of so many women having to be so strong in the capacity that they shouldn't

00:36:46have to be. You know, I was thinking about it. You shot that scene for scandal and you

00:36:52had not at that time publicly talked about your abortion yet. Was it triggering at all to

00:36:59film that scene? Hmm. I don't think it was triggering to film it. I do think it was

00:37:09cathartic. It like allowed me to sometimes in my work as an actor, what I'm doing is like

00:37:21what looks like truth on screen is often because an actor will try to find the closest truth that

00:37:28I know to what the character is going through and share that through the character's body and

00:37:33through her words. So what the gift that I got in filming that scene was I got to share

00:37:39my truth through Olivia Pope. I got to say like, this is something that happened to me. This

00:37:45is something that I chose. This is something that I've lived through and I'm not going to

00:37:51hide it anymore. Even though I was hiding it, like on some like deeper emotional level, I

00:37:56was able to say like, I'm going to step into the truth of this moment and share it with all

00:38:01of you.

00:38:02So you just showed up every day that you were filming that just yes, keeping it to yourself and

00:38:08just pouring it into the work. Yeah. And at the end of that, it just fully felt cathartic. There was

00:38:13no it felt like I had less to hide. That's the healing that often happens through characters is that

00:38:18I feel like and you must have felt this also doing your documentary that like on the other side of

00:38:23it, which was your real, real, real truth. On the other side of it, I just often when a character

00:38:28is really. When I'm lucky, a character lets me share a truth through her. And on the other side

00:38:35of it, I feel a little bit healed. It's beautiful. Yeah, I am. I know that you also wrote, which

00:38:41I

00:38:41think is so important to point out because to women who are listening to this, this is probably a very,

00:38:47very relatable feeling of the shame and embarrassment that you were feeling leading up to the

00:38:53procedure and the loneliness. Right. If you could go back, what kind of empathy or just kindness do

00:39:04you wish you could have shown yourself? It took me a long time to forgive myself,

00:39:10not for having the abortion. I really knew that that was the right choice for me. But it took me

00:39:17a long time to forgive myself for getting pregnant. And I learned a lot about myself about

00:39:29I learned a lot about what was going on for me mentally and emotionally that I allowed that to

00:39:36happen. And it really invited me to figure out how to stand up for myself and my boundaries more.

00:39:47How to be more honest with myself in the moment and how to stay in my body. I have a

00:39:54lifetime of

00:39:55disembodiment of based on sexual abuse, based on all kinds of stuff, of leaving my body. And I feel

00:40:03like so much of my life and my work as an actor has been about trying to figure out how

00:40:09to be back in

00:40:10my body and live and stay present in my body. And that experience was really like a line in the

00:40:16sand

00:40:17for me of like, this is the situation I have found myself in because I do not know how to

00:40:23stay in my

00:40:24body and in my truth. I mean, that's so even even hearing you say that Carrie, it's so one, yes,

00:40:32like hard,

00:40:33but also to I can't help but be like, yes, but it does take two. And so I can't help

00:40:38but be like,

00:40:39oh, but give yourself even more grace than that. But I'm hearing what you're saying also, which I

00:40:43think is one of the most terrifying and scary and unsaid things that women go through, which is

00:40:51why didn't I like advocate for myself? Why didn't I say no? Why wasn't I more clear? Why wasn't I?

00:40:58And how did I get lost in the moment? Like I was at that point, I had been a sex

00:41:02educator for like

00:41:03decades for over a decade, because I started doing that work, sex education work when I was like 13.

00:41:09So I, I was like, I knew better. Like, wow, how am I getting swept up? Like, what what is

00:41:15going on?

00:41:16But it was like people pleasing, perfectionism, disembodiment, all of that.

00:41:22And I think it's so much easier, we can read something on a paper, we can ingest it in a

00:41:27lecture.

00:41:28But when you are in a moment, and you are living it, and that is why unfortunately, really, mainly,

00:41:35primarily only women will be able to relate to this when people like, well, why don't you just say no?

00:41:39It's like, when you are in that moment, and there is so much going on in your brain and not

00:41:46going on

00:41:47in your body, because you're disassociating, and you're like, removing yourself, it is close to

00:41:51impossible to be able to create a strong boundary, because a lot of the times it is easier to just

00:41:58go with what is happening, whether it's for safety, or whatever it be. So you writing about that, I think,

00:42:04was just so powerful. Yeah, because it also is like, there is kind of not an immediate answer

00:42:11in those moments. It's just giving yourself grace of like, you felt guilt after that, of you took

00:42:18primarily the responsibility of getting pregnant. And then what was the process of undoing that guilt

00:42:24for yourself? I think the thing you talked about around like learning how to not disassociate with

00:42:31a lot of therapy, a lot of work, a lot of introspection. But it's been a journey for me of

00:42:39staying in my body, like the healing around the eating disorder, all the work around like,

00:42:42how do I stay in my body so that I can make choices that are right for me? I guess

00:42:47the choice

00:42:48to have an abortion, I was so clear. I was like, I am in this moment, I am in I'm

00:42:53now in my body,

00:42:54I'm in the truth of what's happening in my body. And I need to make a very clear decision. And

00:42:58I knew it

00:42:59was right for me. And I was like, I want to be in this state more often, if not all

00:43:05the time,

00:43:05right? I want to I want to be with myself. Wow. And I remember when you wrote, I know legally

00:43:12clinics have to ask the questions to make sure that this is the right choice for you. And in your

00:43:17book,

00:43:17you describe this as having to essentially defend your choice for an abortion. How did it feel in

00:43:25that moment to have to justify yourself to get yourself to that point, feeling confident in

00:43:30yourself, knowing this is what the right this is is for your body. And then someone looking at you

00:43:34being like, let's walk through. Are you sure? How did that feel? I think it contributed to the guilt

00:43:40because I wasn't. I was at a place and I was at an age where I could have chosen to

00:43:47have a child.

00:43:48I was in a relationship where I could have chosen to have a child. I was like, I there were

00:43:53lots of

00:43:54factors that it wasn't a life or death situation for me. It wasn't the case of rape or incest. It

00:44:00was

00:44:01like it's so I could have made that choice. I just knew it wasn't the right choice for me.

00:44:07And that feels really specific. And it leaves room for a lot of people to disagree. It can seem selfish.

00:44:14It can seem a lot of things. But, you know, you get this one life. And I knew that this

00:44:21was the right

00:44:21choice for me. What do you wish more people understood about the realities women face when

00:44:28it comes to abortion? I think that it's not an easy decision that by the time a woman makes the

00:44:34decision to have an abortion, it's never an easy decision. And so I think we need to give people

00:44:43grace around making the choices that are right for us in our life. But I think also one of the

00:44:50things I

00:44:50loved about your episode was when you challenged that guy around like, well, shouldn't young men

00:44:55just get vasectomies? And then like, when they're ready to have babies, we can reconnect them. And

00:45:01I think that all of the onus gets put on women is it's just so unfair.

00:45:07It's so unfair. And the minute that I tried to engage him in the conversation and include them,

00:45:12they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, yeah, but what laws you're legislating my

00:45:16reproductive organs. So why can't I legislate yours? Why are there no laws around men's bodies?

00:45:21And it's like, well, hold on. And you're like, and so I agree. It's like, I think where we're at

00:45:26right now is it feels impossible to finding a way to bring people to the table to have a conversation.

00:45:36Because we're sitting here right now. And there are women that don't have the same right that you

00:45:42did in the moment. My daughters don't have as many rights as I did at their age, neither one of

00:45:46them.

00:45:46That's a travesty to me. And, you know, if this was really about saving lives, then we would do a

00:45:56better job taking care of the children that exist in the world right now. Like if everybody who

00:46:02believes that abortion should be illegal was also like, really ready to come forward with supporting

00:46:08education and healthcare and resources for families to be able to thrive, we could maybe

00:46:14understand this conversation a little bit more, but it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like

00:46:18it's about care for a child. It feels like it's about control of a woman and maybe control of children

00:46:25too. So I just, I think actually the real answer to your question is like, we don't have to be

00:46:33silent

00:46:34about this. I know that we, we are in a moment where we have fewer rights than we ever have

00:46:39had

00:46:40when it comes to our bodies, but we still have a lot of rights. We have the right to free

00:46:44speech.

00:46:44We have the right to be able to protest. We have the right to vote and we have to like

00:46:50take advantage

00:46:51of the rights that we have to try to grow some of the ones that we've lost.

00:46:56That hopefully is what people can understand. We're saying it's like, if it is not the right choice

00:46:59for you, then you absolutely, that's fine. That's the beauty of living in a free country,

00:47:04a democracy. You get to like make choices for yourself. So let's make sure that is applicable

00:47:10to every single woman on this earth. That's right. Thank you for talking with me about that.

00:47:16I just think there's so many women that listen to this and it is important topic, especially right

00:47:20now. I want to pivot to your family. Yeah. Because you best part of me. Yes. And something that,

00:47:26you referenced earlier and you mentioned in your memoir, a few years ago, you revealed that your

00:47:35dad was not your biological father because your parents used a sperm donor. Just take me to that

00:47:41moment of like, how did they break the news to you? And what was that conversation like, Carrie?

00:47:46So when scandal ended, I bumped into Henry Louis Gates, who is an incredible professor who has this

00:47:53television show called Finding Your Roots. And we'd been friends for a long time. And I'd always

00:47:59wanted to do Finding Your Roots, but I never had time because of scandal. And he was like, I read

00:48:03that it's going to be scandals last season. I said, yeah. He said, will you come do the show? And

00:48:07I was

00:48:07like, absolutely. Like, this is my moment. My mom is so interested in genealogical stuff with our

00:48:13family. And I know my dad will be into this. This will be so great. So I call up my

00:48:17parents and I'm

00:48:18like, I bumped into Skip Gates. I'm going to do Finding Your Roots. We're going to learn

00:48:22everything we can possibly learn about our family. And my dad started having panic attacks.

00:48:27And I couldn't figure it out. My mom was like, that's great. I was like, okay, well,

00:48:32she's always a little, you know, like, she's, my mom is not the most emotionally expressive person.

00:48:37That's how I'll say it. So I was like, all right, well, I think it's great. And maybe she,

00:48:40she thinks it's great too. And we'll get there. My dad was not happy. And I was like, what are

00:48:45you

00:48:45afraid of? Like, you're worried that you're going to find out like your great grandmother was like,

00:48:50I don't know, like had a brothel or like, what are we like, what's the what could possibly be the

00:48:54issue? So I offered my parents because Skip Gates is closer to their age generationally. And so I was

00:49:01like, do you want to talk to Professor Gates? And like, maybe he can help calm you guys down. And

00:49:07so basically, this Harvard professor knew about my genetics before I did, because my parents were

00:49:12like, what if hypothetically speaking, she happened to be born from a sperm. Would that come up? And he

00:49:22was like, definitely it would. And you need to tell her. And they were like, no, no, no, no, no,

00:49:28no. And

00:49:28he was like, he said, thank God, he said to them, that in all of his years of doing the

00:49:33show, when this

00:49:34has this kind of thing has come up, that people's greatest regret is not being able to know when

00:49:40everybody's still alive. Because you don't get to deal with it and move through it and like get

00:49:46closer in the truth of it. So, so I got this text from my mom that my parents wanted to

00:49:51talk, which

00:49:52never happens. I was like, I mean, it has happened once or twice, like when my mother first told me

00:49:56she had cancer, or when my dad was in trouble with the law, like, I was like, this is not

00:50:00good news.

00:50:00Um, and I went to the apartment, their apartment in LA and, um, and they like fumbled through sharing

00:50:10this news with me. And I remember it like the, it was like, I don't know, it was like that

00:50:15scene in

00:50:15Alice in Wonderland where she's like free falling through the characters and the, the props. I just

00:50:20was like, what is happening? Nothing felt solid. I felt kind of dizzy. I was like, is this like a

00:50:25weird prank? Like I just, I could, I was so confused. And also at the exact same time, I felt

00:50:35like, yes, this is it. Like this is the, this is the puzzle piece that I've been trying to solve

00:50:41for

00:50:41my entire life. This is why I've, this is part of why I've had such a hard time being in

00:50:49my body and

00:50:49staying in my body. It's because my body has been a lie to me from the moment I came to

00:50:55this

00:50:55planet. Like from the moment I was born, the two people who love me the most have lied to me

00:51:00about

00:51:01who I am and about where this body comes from. And so I had an opportunity to make peace with

00:51:06my body

00:51:07for the first time and with my, the truth of who I am and, and like how I'm here. I

00:51:13mean,

00:51:15it was really cool. I was going to say like incredible and so disorienting, like 40 years of

00:51:22your life. You believe your father is your biological blood father. They tell you this,

00:51:28like, how did you even begin as a human being to process something like that?

00:51:34My first concern, my first concern was my dad because I remember looking at him and he was

00:51:44devastated. Like I could tell he felt like he lost me. And so it took me a while to actually

00:51:52even

00:51:52figure out how I was feeling about it. Cause I realized very quickly that my parents needed my

00:51:57help in this moment, that they were courageously stepping into the scariest thing they had ever done

00:52:03and that they thought that they were going to explode our family, that they were going to destroy us

00:52:08as a family. Cause I'm an only child. So it's just the three of us. And so I really,

00:52:14the, my first concern was like to sit next to my dad and to look at him and to say,

00:52:18I just want you to

00:52:19know that I love you and that every day that I've said, I love you up until now for you,

00:52:30it's been on

00:52:30the condition of a lie because you think I love you because I think you're my dad. I said, today

00:52:37you

00:52:38get to know that I love you unconditionally. Cause I know you're not my biological father and I still

00:52:43love you. That's it. Oh my God. It was really powerful. I can't imagine the relief, but also did

00:52:54you ever get to talk about like, did they do this out of, did they say because they thought they

00:52:58were

00:52:59protecting you? Yes. Yeah. I mean, at the time, nobody knew 40 plus years ago that there was going

00:53:04to be a 23 and me or an ancestry.com. Like that, that was like science fiction. I was like

00:53:09the

00:53:09Jetsons. Like, what do you like? What? So, so it was really, I think they were really protecting me.

00:53:17They were trying to make me not feel othered, not feel different, not feel weird. Like it wasn't like

00:53:22today you and I have friends who like go to a sperm bank and look through a binder and like

00:53:26choose what

00:53:27degree the person has and like what color eyes that the donor will have. But this was like the wild

00:53:32West. My mother was like, got a phone call. Like we have it. It's warm. Come to the office. Like

00:53:36she had no idea who the person was. My parents just said like, please let him be healthy and let

00:53:41him be black because they didn't want anybody to know. So they wanted to keep it a secret.

00:53:45So it just, I think it was so again, shrouded in secrecy and shame. And also my dad's shame about

00:53:51not being able to provide, like it was about protecting him and protecting me and so much

00:53:57emotions all around. Yeah. Although not the same. This makes me think about your new show,

00:54:02Imperfect Women, which touches on secrets and how they impact relationships. Right? Yeah.

00:54:09How did you use what you went through in your life to inform this character that you just went on

00:54:16to

00:54:16play? It's such a good question. You're so good at this. I'm having the time of my life.

00:54:22Surprise. Surprises to no one. So I think one of the biggest things that shocked me when I went on

00:54:28book tour was that every single person at every book signing, when they were taking a picture with

00:54:33me, was like, my family has a secret. Like they were, they were sharing their family. And I started

00:54:38realizing like, oh, every family has a secret. We all have them. All of us. It's part of what

00:54:44defines us, right? It's like the moment that we reveal our truth and how our family deals with it

00:54:48is a big part of what defines who we are and who our family is. So I have really gravitated

00:54:55toward,

00:54:56I mean, actually, even before knowing like Reese Witherspoon sent me Little Fires Everywhere

00:55:00before my parents told me. And in Little Fires Everywhere, I play a woman who volunteers to be

00:55:06a surrogate and then does not tell my daughter who her father is. Like, it is so absurd that this

00:55:12was

00:55:13the project that Reese sent to me. When I sent my mom the book, my mother was like, oh, wait,

00:55:19like in hindsight, I like, I watched my life now. Like the way you watch one of those movies where

00:55:24you're like, oh, there were all these Easter eggs, but I didn't know they were Easter eggs in the

00:55:27moment. I complete. I watched that show. I love that show. I completely forgot. Is that crazy?

00:55:32It's so wild. Your mom like freaking out when you send her the script. She's like, so gorgeous.

00:55:36This is so great. Totally. So, but also it was such a blessing because by the time we were filming

00:55:43that show, I did know. And then I actually got to step into my parents' shoes because I had this

00:55:50beautiful young actress, Lexi Underwood saying like, tell me who my father is. And me through tears

00:55:55saying, I can't, I can't. Like I had to really, really step into in a very compassionate way,

00:56:03understanding my parents' fear and why they couldn't tell me. So that was such a gift.

00:56:07You found this out while you were filming?

00:56:09In the process of developing that show. I'd already signed on to it. And then they told me

00:56:13that I went to go make it, which is insane.

00:56:16Oh, you're like, this role is meant for me.

00:56:20Yeah. I'm in.

00:56:21Isn't that crazy?

00:56:21Oh, wow.

00:56:22So then when we were doing, in developing Imperfect Women, I realized like this is something

00:56:28that I, a theme that I return to again and again, the kind of presentation of self

00:56:32versus who we really are. Because for so much of my life, even when I didn't know

00:56:37that I was born from a donor, I knew that something was up. Like I knew that there was something,

00:56:42some weird missing puzzle piece in my family. I didn't know what I didn't know,

00:56:46but I knew we weren't real with each other. I knew that we were not 100% transparent.

00:56:51I talk about in the book is like a veil. There was like a veil between my parents and I,

00:56:54you want to keep a secret. You tell my mother and father, because my mother has four sisters.

00:57:00None of them knew her mother, like no one knew not a single soul. So also it was so freeing

00:57:06for her

00:57:06to be like, I don't have to keep this secret anymore. Yeah.

00:57:10Oh, wow.

00:57:10But so, so for Imperfect Women, I really gravitated toward this project because I was like,

00:57:16this is a, a series about, about women who keep secrets from each other, even though they love

00:57:22each other so, so much. It's three friends who adore each other and they want to be in their truth.

00:57:28But because we have this pressure in society and culture to be perfect, they keep things from

00:57:35each other, really important things from each other. And it's like, why I love when shows like

00:57:41this explore that concept is because the, the word secret understandably has such a negative

00:57:47connotation, but it is so refreshing. Even when we're talking about what happened with you,

00:57:53with your parents, it's like when you explore the why there's so much underneath a lot of secrets

00:57:57that a lot of it comes from the person genuinely thinking they're protecting the people that they

00:58:02love. And really it's like, most of the time, the truth is always the answer, but, but we can

00:58:09empathize with the people that keep the secrets when you actually get underneath the why of why

00:58:14they genuinely thought it wasn't right.

00:58:15It's terrifying. It's terrifying. I think in the end, we're all afraid that we're not going to be

00:58:19loved, that we're not going to be accepted, that we're not going to belong to the people that we

00:58:23love the most if we let them know who we really are. And so I think watching people grapple with

00:58:28that and, and be willing to unpack that is so captivating because it's terrifying for all of

00:58:35us. It is. And it's so universal, just like the fear of rejection. Yeah. You referenced earlier how

00:58:40you have struggled with an eating disorder and this doesn't always look the way we expect it to,

00:58:47right? How did you recognize and come to terms with the fact that you were struggling?

00:58:53So I want to say, I want to share with you because I'm super proud of it. I invested in

00:58:57a company called

00:58:58equip, which is this incredible online community for healing recovery from eating disorders. And why I

00:59:07believe so strongly in this work is because I've, you know, as a person of privilege, I've been able to

00:59:15have group therapy and individual therapy and nutritionists and physical trainers and doctors.

00:59:21Like I've had access to incredible healthcare throughout my life. And this platform equip

00:59:26is like the democratization of that kind of healthcare. They create a team of healthcare

00:59:30support around every single person so that the healing, because eating disorders are such a

00:59:35multidimensional illness. It's, it's psychological, it's biological, it's cultural. And so you need your

00:59:40team of support to reflect that kind of care. And so they do this online with people all over

00:59:45the country and they take insurance and it's unbelievable. So yeah, so I'm very proud of that

00:59:50work. And for me, I think, especially it's important because a lot of people of color go undiagnosed.

00:59:57People who live on the margins go undiagnosed. So people who are in the queer community,

01:00:01um, women of color, men of color, it just, we, I think in general, we tend to downplay how dangerous

01:00:10eating disorders are, even though they are fatal. Um, so many people die every year from eating

01:00:16disorders. So I think for me, I recognized it because I knew that I was in a real mental health

01:00:26crisis. Like the thing that actually got me to get help with my eating disorder, wasn't the food

01:00:33itself, wasn't the behavior with the food. It was the suicidal ideation. I was like, I'm using food

01:00:39as an exercise as a tool to not be here. Like I'm trying to escape life and I, I need

01:00:46to figure out how

01:00:47to be in life. Cause I don't, I was terrified that I was being so mean to myself, right? That

01:00:54I was in so

01:00:55much pain that it was like inflicting more pain was the only way out of my pain.

01:01:00And it's so hard to recognize when you're in it. Like I think it, and it's also sometimes,

01:01:06and I know I've spoken to women before on my show where they say like, it's sometimes easier to stay

01:01:12in it because dismantling all, like you said, this is not just like, and then just you stop doing,

01:01:19it's like, you have to go through the psychological, you needed to get into the body. And like,

01:01:22I like to say, you know, and this is not to diminish the, the power of any addiction,

01:01:28but there are some addictions where the work is like, you have to put it down and you stop.

01:01:33And one of the things that's tricky about an eating disorder is I have to take this tiger

01:01:38out of a cage and pet it like a house cat three times a day, right? Like that's, that is

01:01:44one of the

01:01:44interesting dynamics is that like you, you can't just say, I'm not going to eat. That's actually

01:01:49another extension of an eating disorder. So you, you have to be in relationship with this

01:01:54thing that is so challenging to engage with. I remember reading that quote of yours and it was

01:02:00such a, it was so helpful to read that. Cause I do, I agree. It puts it into perspective that

01:02:07this,

01:02:08this feeling and this whether it's disorder or addiction or whatever you want to call it, like

01:02:13it's ever present. You can't survive without eating. And so I agree. It's like

01:02:18every addiction is horrible, but this one specifically, there is such a complexity to it.

01:02:23Yeah. It's similar to like the money addictions or the sex addictions where like you don't,

01:02:26you can't just give it up, but you got to figure out how to do it in a way that

01:02:29doesn't

01:02:30ruin your life and the lives of the people you love the most.

01:02:33Yes. What was your healing process like? I mean, it was the first, it was the first thing that got

01:02:40me on my knees ever. Like the first time I ever prayed was to get out of this insanity where

01:02:45I was

01:02:45like the only thing, like my entire life revolved around what I was eating or not eating, how many

01:02:50calories I was burning. I was, I was, when I was in college, it was the worst, the worst, the

01:02:54worst.

01:02:54That's when I first went into treatment. And I, it was the first time I got on my knees to

01:02:59be like,

01:02:59I need help. And so it was for me, it was group therapy. It was individual therapy. It was the

01:03:05first time I ever went to see a shrink and have therapy and talk about my feelings. It was working

01:03:11with a nutritionist. It was all of that stuff. Yeah.

01:03:14I think something that can be really hard is like when you are genuinely so concerned about someone,

01:03:20it can come off like you are criticizing or you're commenting on their body when you're trying to help

01:03:27them. Do you have any advice for people listening on like how to navigate that type of conversation?

01:03:33If you are a friend or a family member concerned, I had the opposite where I went to a couple

01:03:38of

01:03:38people to say, I think I need help with this. And people were like, it's fine. Everybody eats when

01:03:43they're upset. Like they, they kind of refused to see how serious it was because they didn't want that

01:03:50to be true for me. And I think sometimes people do that because they don't, they don't want to look

01:03:54at their own behavior with food. So they're like, it's fine, whatever. We don't have to talk about

01:03:58it. So it's also just listening to the people around listening to, I think if you're, if you're

01:04:03the one struggling, it's trusting your gut. If you know you need help, don't let anybody tell you that

01:04:08it's not a big deal. And as a parent, if you know your child needs help also, because I, I

01:04:14mean,

01:04:14even a lot of pediatricians struggle to diagnose eating disorders. There's a lot of education that

01:04:18needs to happen in the medical community where still people in medical schools are being taught that

01:04:22eating disorders are things that happen to like white wealthy people in suburbs. There's all this

01:04:27weird misinformation around who has them and even what are eating disorders, what are the different

01:04:32eating disorders. So I think like if you're a parent trusting your gut and getting help for your young

01:04:39ones, and if you're struggling, don't minimize it. Like it might be an eating disorder. It might be

01:04:45disordered eating. It might, it could be a whole spectrum of things, but if you need help, ask for help.

01:04:49Like you don't need to suffer alone. You don't need to live in pain. You don't need to,

01:04:55to engage in activity that takes you out of life.

01:04:58As someone who is in the public eye, sadly, that does come with scrutiny over your looks

01:05:04and your body. Yeah. How does that constant commentary affect you?

01:05:10I keep thinking it's like a lot of times when you're asking me questions, I'm like, I love the title

01:05:15of our

01:05:15show, imperfect women, because I'm like so much of the journey is about being like, I'm not perfect.

01:05:21We're all imperfect. Like imperfect is a synonym for human. It's just like that, that is, that's who I am.

01:05:29So I think I'm in a place in my life now where I understand it's, I mean, people are going

01:05:36to have

01:05:36their opinions. I'm just doing the best I can. And I have pretty high standards. So like I'm reaching

01:05:43for gold in my version of me. And if it's not good enough for you, then that's your issue to

01:05:49deal with.

01:05:49Like, yeah, it's a great point. And I also think I had somewhat of a conversation similar to this

01:05:55with Michelle Obama, where we talked about how the internet can Queen Michelle Obama.

01:06:01Yes. Okay. Still said to pause. No, no, no. I know. I'm still not over it. Yes. Okay.

01:06:06The internet is so ruthless when it comes to body shaming and criticizing women. Yeah.

01:06:12But the sad reality is a majority of the time it is coming from other women.

01:06:17And what do you think is behind that?

01:06:28We're not taught to love ourselves. It's not like a core value and it needs to be.

01:06:34And so I think a lot of times we reach for criticism of ourselves and others because we

01:06:40just don't know how to choose to be more loving. We don't know how.

01:06:45It's so true. And I think like when women go at other women, there's almost this

01:06:52projection that's happening, whether it's someone that's triggering something in you,

01:06:58whether you're seeing something that you wish you could be doing or you

01:07:02you resonate with. It scares you because it shakes your idea of what's acceptable.

01:07:07Yes. And I think like what I want to work on. And I'm I think when Michelle talked about that,

01:07:14I was hoping like also my audience can work on is like really pausing in those moments where you do

01:07:19have a negative feeling towards another woman and really trying to dissect like,

01:07:24why is this happening? Because where is this coming?

01:07:26Because we're only going to continue to perpetuate it. And the only way we're going to dismantle the

01:07:32patriarchy of all the men are just laughing like they're just like, oh, my God, if anything, now

01:07:36they're also busy tearing each other down like we used to have to do it. Now you're all doing it

01:07:41yourselves. Wow.

01:07:42It's like it's worked. So they've worked so long to put us in this position where we are

01:07:48below them and we have to believe we are equal. And so we have to start actually rising directly

01:07:55next to them and looking at ourselves being like, the only way we're going to get there is if we

01:07:59actually shut our mouths the next time that we want to say something negative about another woman.

01:08:02I'm not saying you can't disagree with women. You can't be, you know, say, I think the opposite

01:08:07of you or I actually don't agree with what you are doing. Sure. But maybe the next time you think

01:08:11to do

01:08:12that, you stay silent, at least publicly on that or DM the person and have a private conversation.

01:08:19I don't know. I just think there's different solves to actually getting underneath. How do we stop the

01:08:25war against women when half of the time it feels like we're in it within ourselves?

01:08:29Yeah. I mean, the thing is, what you're talking about requires a lot of maturity

01:08:34because there's a certain level of emotional regulation that when I get ramped up about

01:08:39something that I don't just jump to react, but that I pause. Like, I feel like such a big part

01:08:44of being an adult, a mature adult is in the pause. Like, am I willing to pause,

01:08:49pause, take a beat, look at my side of the street before I'm reactive? And it's really,

01:08:55I feel like it is at the cornerstone of being able to grapple with a lot of really challenging

01:09:01relationships. I mean, it's really important in parenting. Pausing is really important in

01:09:06parenting. I can't imagine. Because you do, you, and you get triggered a lot. You get activated a lot

01:09:11by stuff. It's a great point. And I can't help but think like you've been in so many rooms with

01:09:18men and women in this very heightened industry. Do you have any moments where you realized you were

01:09:27kind of being set up to compete with other women? And how has that evolved for you as you have

01:09:32kind

01:09:32of come into more power compared to maybe the beginning days where you didn't have as much of a

01:09:37say? I will never forget this. I think it was Chris Rock who said this to me that the most

01:09:46racist thing that's ever been done to you, you'll never know about because you weren't even in the

01:09:51room. I think it's true in sexism too. Like the most sexist decision that gets made about us,

01:09:57we won't even have access to the moment it got made because it will be in a room that we

01:10:02did not

01:10:02have access to. So that's wild. It's a wild idea to wrap your head around. But I actually think of,

01:10:10I think of a moment that's a little bit of the opposite. Like I referred to this earlier when the

01:10:16script for Scandal was circulating, everybody was obsessed because we hadn't seen an opportunity for

01:10:23a black actress like this in our lifetimes. And everybody wanted to read for it. Everybody thought

01:10:29they were born to play this character. And God bless Shonda. She was like, if you want to read,

01:10:33I will let you read. Like she saw everybody because she understood the hope that lived in these,

01:10:38the pages of this script for so many people. And I remember speaking at a luncheon for Essence

01:10:45Magazine after I had gotten the part. So it was a room full of black women. And I don't know

01:10:52how to

01:10:52explain this, but I'm going to try. I felt nothing but love in that room. And I knew that there

01:11:04could

01:11:04have been. Like I could have been standing in front of that room in front of all those women,

01:11:08many of whom I knew were like down to the wires, like down to me and four other women. All

01:11:11of them

01:11:12were in there. There was no sense of competition. There was no sense of like, it should have been me.

01:11:17There was no sense of how dare she. It was all like, you have to go win this thing.

01:11:24Like we believe in you. You got it. Now you have to go win for us. And that magic, I

01:11:32was like, this is,

01:11:34I know that this is not the norm. I know that this is rarefied air that we're all breathing right

01:11:40now.

01:11:40And I felt so grateful and responsible for them, for all of us, for like standing up,

01:11:49for representing all of us. And by the way, there may have been some of them who went home and

01:11:54were

01:11:54like that bitch. Like, I know I could have done that part with my eyes closed. I don't know why

01:11:58she's doing it. Like, I'm not saying those feelings weren't there, but I'm saying like in that room,

01:12:02the energy that they were consciously sending my way was all love.

01:12:07I mean, that though is, I agree. It's like, we can, yes, we can always focus on the negative,

01:12:14but that is such a testament to the statement and the reality that has kind of been built out is

01:12:24that there can only be one woman at the top. I know. And although in that moment, it was proving

01:12:30true. As you're saying, I am a black woman in this position that for 40 years, it hasn't happened.

01:12:36And so it is on my shoulders right now. But how incredible that you took that and you had all

01:12:43these women standing there being like, we are rooting for you. You have to win. You have to

01:12:47win. And I always say, like, I didn't change history. Like I was going to, I was going to come

01:12:53in and know my lines and make strong choices. I was going to do my job as an actor, no

01:12:57matter what

01:12:58the person who made history, that was our audiences, like audiences all over the world.

01:13:03They tuned in and they made a point. They, they were able to prove to the network that it wasn't

01:13:10a

01:13:10risk, that it was actually a strong ROI, that we were going to bring the value. So when I think

01:13:17about that moment, I also think all of those women, they were the women who were like retweeting and

01:13:22reposting and joining in on Thursday nights. Because when we were a grassroots, you know,

01:13:27mid-season replacement show, it was like black women who were first, like, you got to watch this

01:13:31show. You got to watch my girl, Carrie, like that's that energy. So we did all win together.

01:13:37There was only room for one, but it took all of us to break that door open. And then there

01:13:42was room

01:13:42for more of us to go through it. Right. Back to what you said, all of those shows that follow.

01:13:47Yes. At first there was only, and that is, I think what like ending that conversation, it's like,

01:13:53that is such, that is what we're talking about. It's actually, yes. If one, if it can only be

01:13:57one woman in the room, we have to believe that she's going to work her ass off and it will

01:14:03allow for

01:14:04the rest of us to also rise with her. And we have to believe that we just have to.

01:14:08And it's why we can't tear each other apart for our imperfections. Because when one of us comes

01:14:13forward to say, I had an abortion, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. It was a really

01:14:19difficult time in my life, but I made that choice. When we allow her to do that, we allow other

01:14:25people

01:14:26to say, I have a secret too. I have a secret too. I adopted my children, didn't tell anybody. I

01:14:31used a

01:14:32sperm donor. My husband's infertile. I'm infertile. Whatever it is, when we make room for each other's

01:14:38truth also, each other's success, each other's pain, we have to support each other as women in

01:14:44our human, imperfect, messy journey so that we can continue to be badass and human and imperfect

01:14:50and messy and awesome. It's so true because then the stigma is gone. There's only a stigma because

01:14:55we're making it. That's right. And then the more we keep talking about it, that stigma will be gone.

01:15:00Yeah. And then people won't have to keep these secrets. Because we can stay in community and

01:15:04just be who we are. Girl. I mean. We needed this today. I did.

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01:16:29Okay. Relationships. Okay. You have been married for about 13 years. I know. What has your partnership

01:16:38taught you about yourself? Oh, wow. That's such a good question. What has my partner taught me about

01:16:46myself? That I'm really, really lucky. I'm like, I must have done something really good in a past life

01:16:54because I mean, what an extraordinary human. So I'm really lucky. Oh, God, he teaches me stuff all the

01:17:04time. One of the things that I really love about our relationship is that very early on, we started

01:17:11couples therapy. Like we started couples therapy before anything was wrong. Like we just started

01:17:17couples therapy kind of preventatively. He was newer to therapy. I feel like I've been in therapy my

01:17:23whole life. But we were like, we should just like, start having these conversations so that if

01:17:28something does get hard, we already have a culture of knowing how to talk about stuff. I'm obsessed with

01:17:34couples therapy. It's amazing. It's my favorite. It's like, part logistics meeting, part like,

01:17:41party, part date in the afternoon. Like I so look forward to it. We start every session with something

01:17:48that the other person did well, like something that we appreciate about the other person. And like,

01:17:53every time I am like, this is the best part of my week. Because so often, what's really interesting

01:18:00is so often, the thing he shares with me that he appreciated, or the thing I share with him,

01:18:05it's not something I would have guessed. It's like something that to me was small. But to him,

01:18:10it meant a lot. And that's so useful. Because now I'm like, oh, I can do that again. Like I

01:18:15can do

01:18:16that all the time. That was nothing to me, right? Like, so you really learn how to love each other

01:18:20better in that way by starting with something good. I think he's taught me just how to be a better

01:18:27person, a better human. And he's given me the greatest gift, which is his partnership and also

01:18:34to be a mom. Yeah, you know, beautiful. Yeah. Something I was thinking about is you have been

01:18:39able to maintain a career. And obviously, you talked about motherhood, right? Yeah. To anyone

01:18:45listening, that's like, girl, you in particular? Yeah, I'm like, girl, I was thinking about starting

01:18:51a family. Like to anyone that's maybe thinking about that one day. Um, how? Girl, give me the

01:18:58advice. What do I do? How do you do it? I have girlfriends who I have said, like, you should

01:19:04just

01:19:04come over. Because it's a little bit like you just need to see it. You just need to see it

01:19:08in the wild.

01:19:09Like you just need to be like, oh, like, it's chaotic. It's crazy. And it's awesome. Like you just

01:19:14got it. Like you just have to come over. Perfect. Yeah. I'll just watch it. It's like seeing a lion

01:19:20in the

01:19:20wild. You're like, it's real. Okay. Perfect. Right. Well, we can do it. I would say you're

01:19:25never gonna feel ready. Or by the time you feel ready, then you're like on a clock. Um,

01:19:32I don't know. Just follow your gut. Yeah. Follow your gut. I know. I feel like that's a lot of

01:19:36what

01:19:36I've read online or like seen people talk about is like, there's only so much advice you can give

01:19:42to people. And then it's like, you got to just throw yourself into it because everyone's made it

01:19:45work somehow. Yeah, that's right. Like it's going to be hard. That's right. But there's

01:19:50also a journey you need to go on for yourself. Yeah. That there's only so much you can read in

01:19:56books or listen to on podcasts. And it's like, you kind of got to live it. I would say two

01:20:00things.

01:20:00Okay. One is just think about it. Like don't not think about it. Right. Like the biggest thing I say

01:20:07to my girlfriends is like, don't just make your whole life about work. Be open to thinking about

01:20:14where these other pieces can fit in. Because Michelle Obama says this all the time, you can't

01:20:19have everything all the time. But you want to make sure that by the time the things you want,

01:20:26by the time you're ready for the things you want, you're still able to do them. Right. So like,

01:20:30really be you're so strategic about your life. Like, don't be afraid to be a little bit strategic

01:20:36about this. Yeah, it's great. And plan, right? Like, like, take it seriously. This is part of the plan.

01:20:41This is part of the plan. So take it seriously. I feel like Olivia came out a little bit out

01:20:45there.

01:20:46It's my name on that door, but it's your name on that door. So act like it.

01:20:50Okay, this is the plan, Alex. I'm like, yes, keep going. I think also a lot of my audience is

01:20:55in a

01:20:56phase right now where they're maybe getting engaged or they're thinking about marriage. And the way that

01:21:02you just said, you know, you feel so lucky with your partnership. Like, is there any conversations

01:21:08that you do think are essential before getting married that maybe my audience could benefit from

01:21:14having? Well, I do think not being afraid to allow independence in your marriage is important,

01:21:21right? Like, I have I remember having a conversation with one girlfriend who was just like,

01:21:24they have to love Indian food. And I was like, well, why? Like, I will eat Indian food with you.

01:21:29First of all, you can go to an Indian restaurant by yourself. And also, I will always eat Indian food.

01:21:34You don't have to like all the same things all the time. If anything, it's good if you don't.

01:21:38It's good if you have separate interests. It's important. It's powerful. It's meaningful. And

01:21:43then you get to come back to each other and have something to talk about. So I think not being

01:21:47afraid of independence is really important. And I think the family thing is important. Like,

01:21:53do you want to have kids? Do you not want to have kids? I think that's really important.

01:21:57Yeah, I actually really love the independence topic too, because I think to anyone listening,

01:22:01it's also like, so much that goes into the beginning days of a relationship is this conscious

01:22:07coupling of like, do we work? Do we have the same this and this? And do our lives merge? And

01:22:11so much

01:22:11is seeing if you are compatible, which yes, is important. But then you're merging so heavily

01:22:16and making sure everything aligns that then it's like, well, wait, what if one thing is off? And it's

01:22:21like, no, no, no. Watching my parents now who have had have been married for 40 plus years,

01:22:26and the things that they both don't align on in terms of what they like or whatever.

01:22:31It's actually so beautiful, because as they've grown, they've filled in that area with friends,

01:22:37or their child goes and does it with them, or they do it alone. And that allows for the

01:22:41independence to remain, which is so integral to a relationship, because you came in as individuals,

01:22:47you don't want to then just somehow merge, like you fell in love because of who you came in as

01:22:52an

01:22:53individual. That's right. That's right. I also think that like, there's a lot my I did not have

01:22:57a very traditional wedding. But I do think about those vows. I think they're so powerful, because I

01:23:03think you have to really ask yourself in sickness, like in poverty, when things are not good. Like,

01:23:11who is this somebody who I want to be down with and who is going to be down for me

01:23:16on the good days

01:23:17and the bad days, like really asking yourself in the more challenging times? Is this my ride or die?

01:23:23Like, is this my do I want to be this person's co pilot? And do I want them to be

01:23:27mine? Because

01:23:27that's also the thing, right? Is that like, part of that independence conversation is like, I am the

01:23:31lead in the story of my life. He is the lead in the story of his life. But also, I

01:23:36like being the

01:23:36supporting character in his life. And he likes being the supporting character in my life that I can I can

01:23:40have both. I can be in two movies, I can be in like the Kerry Washington movie, where it's all

01:23:45about me.

01:23:45But I also really love being number two on the call sheet in his movie. You know, I love that.

01:23:51I

01:23:51know I'm thinking about like, all the girlies listening, like, if you are just liking him right

01:23:55now, because it fits into your social calendar. Maybe, maybe just think a little bit more before

01:24:01he gets down on one knee or whatever, however, you're going to do it, because there is so much

01:24:05more to life than just the fun times. You're right in sickness and in health when money is lost,

01:24:12like, those are the those are the important things. Yeah. Okay, back to your new show as

01:24:18we yeah, I was gonna say wind down. And I was like, every time my therapist says I get triggered,

01:24:22I get it. What do you mean? We're at the 50 minute mark, please. Like, I could be sobbing. And

01:24:26she's

01:24:26like, well, as we wind down, I'm like, don't leave. I wind up saying it first, because I don't want

01:24:31the

01:24:32therapist to say I'm like, I know we don't have much time. I always say that at the end of

01:24:35sessions.

01:24:35I'm like, I know we don't have a lot of time. No, that's actually so real. You start to look

01:24:39and

01:24:39you're like, we have one minute. I'm going to say it first. And it's like, oh, you are not

01:24:42breaking up with me. I'm breaking up with you. It is. That is so real. Okay, I know you said,

01:24:48obviously, you can't give spoilers. But like, what do you think fans are going to love the most

01:24:55about this show? This show, I swear to you, I know a little something about like water cooler

01:25:02television. This show is your next like cannot miss. Everybody's talking about it. Psychological

01:25:10thriller, sexy, juicy, girly, fantastic show. It is like, it's so captivating. These characters

01:25:19are unbelievable. The acting is crazy. Like Elizabeth Moss is a beast of an actress. She's

01:25:24just a beast. Kate Mara is a beast. We are all three women who have held our own shows.

01:25:28So to like team up together to support each other in the telling of this story is incredible.

01:25:34I imagine this is what it feels like to be on a dream team at the Olympics where you're

01:25:38like, I can't drop the ball. Like I can't be the one who doesn't sink the ball. Like

01:25:42you have to, I have to win because this team has to win. So you every day. Also, one of

01:25:47the things that's really cool about the show that I love is that it's actually told from

01:25:51different point of views. Like it seems like it's my show in the beginning and then it

01:25:56becomes Nancy's show and then it becomes Mary's show. And so like you're actually getting the

01:26:01story from different perspectives, which is like unraveling of truth as you keep going

01:26:05through. So you go deeper and deeper into these secrets and into these discoveries.

01:26:09It's just so good. We would have arguments on set constantly about the things these characters

01:26:15were doing. Like we disagreed among cast and crew about whether things were right or wrong,

01:26:20whether people could do what they were doing. Like, does that make you a good friend or a

01:26:23bad friend? Oh, I love shows like that, that actually force you to really self reflect and

01:26:27be like, wait, do I think what I agree with that? Would I do that? Yeah. My husband was

01:26:31like enough. I'd go home and I'd be like, okay, if I died, he's like, I don't want to talk

01:26:34about this anymore. I just have a question. If I died, he's like enough. Stop it. No, I'm

01:26:42so excited to see it for everyone watching. Like, I think we love you. We love watching you

01:26:47on our TVs. You've just obviously been with us for so long and any project you have,

01:26:53I think we all rally behind you because you're just, you're our comfort watch. You're our

01:26:57girl. So like, I am so excited for you. I'm so excited for this new show and I am, I

01:27:03can't

01:27:04wait to call my mom after this because she doesn't even know. She doesn't even know I'm

01:27:09interviewing you today. Does she live here? She lives here. Oh, so you guys should both

01:27:13come over. This is what you should do. You should both come over and I will convince you

01:27:16to have children. I am like, I'm going to take your word for that. I've never followed

01:27:23up. No, I'm just kidding. No, that means so much and you're so sweet and my mom would actually

01:27:27pass out. But thank you for your time. I know you're so busy. I know you have so much going

01:27:33on and like to get two hours of your time to sit with you, to pick your brain, to go

01:27:39back and relive memory lane with the scandal days all the way to the current projects.

01:27:43Like you are such a special woman and I'm honored to have met you and thank you for giving me

01:27:47your time. Thank you so much. And thank you for forcing me to call my friend, Tony.

01:27:53Tony, literally hearing Olivia and Fitz one more time. I was like, oh, I need to go rewatch

01:27:56it now. Thank you. Thank you.

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