Bethany Joy Lenz- One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (Full Video)

Call Her Daddy

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Transcript

00:00:02What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.

00:00:11Bethany Joy Lenz, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

00:00:15Your book, Dinner for Vampires, comes out this week. Congratulations. How are you feeling?

00:00:21I feel proud of it. You know, people often ask me, are you excited? And I'm thinking,

00:00:28excited is not the right adjective because it's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell.

00:00:36It's not like I thought, oh, this is great material. I just lived through something traumatic and you

00:00:44go through therapy and you want to just work through it in your private life. But that became

00:00:50part of the healing was recognizing how relatable my story was to so many other people who hadn't

00:00:57been in something as dramatic as a cult. And yet somehow I was finding myself in conversations

00:01:03with so many women in particular, but so many people who had found themselves in this kind of

00:01:11dynamic relationally. And the more I had that conversation, the more that brought healing to

00:01:16me. And then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, it just felt like this is the right

00:01:21thing to do. It's also what good are our mistakes if we can't. It's honestly one of the things I

00:01:28love

00:01:28about you and listening to your show is that there's this sense of like an open mess. Like, and it's

00:01:35definitely don't take that the wrong way, but it's actually really wonderful and really comforting to

00:01:40see somebody just living in this space of, I don't know. And also look at this stupid decision I made

00:01:46and look at this weird mistake that I made. And oh, we're not alone. It we're not alone. And I,

00:01:51and I really appreciate you coming today because I think you're right in talking about there is

00:01:56something that you've gone through that maybe at face value to people are like, I cannot relate to

00:02:01being in a cult, but the themes that you experienced throughout this moment in your life are so relatable

00:02:08and are these very tangible experiences that so many women listening are gonna be like, yep,

00:02:12yep, yep. Yep. I've been there. So we're going to get into it. Um, I mean, I just have to

00:02:17though say

00:02:17like, and I was saying it to downstairs, the book is incredible and it's so fascinating because you do

00:02:22talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents and one tree hill. And oh, by the

00:02:28way, for 10 years you were in this cult. And I think it's important to kind of go back to

00:02:33what led you

00:02:34to this moment. And then we're going to kind of go all through it, but let's get into it. How

00:02:38would you

00:02:40describe yourself as a kid? I was, I had a huge imagination. I was lonely. Um, I, I had a

00:02:54really,

00:02:55I guess it was kind of like an old soul where I think I always had this sense of

00:03:01this too shall pass. This moment is not the biggest thing ever. And that helped me a lot in

00:03:09the feeling alone, feeling the solitude. Um, I don't know why I seemed to always understand that

00:03:18as a kid, but yeah. So, so there was this comfort in knowing that there was something bigger out there.

00:03:27Another was another day coming. There was hope and, uh, it's okay to just be alone. And, and I

00:03:34learned to enjoy my own company, which was a huge gift as well. That is a gift. Why, why, why

00:03:40would

00:03:40you say you were lonely? I was an only child and my parents were wonderful, but very young and doing

00:03:46the best that they could at their age. We had addiction in the family. We had codependence. There was,

00:03:52there were so many dynamics at play and everybody was just trying to stay afloat. Um, so, uh, and we

00:04:01moved a lot, so it was hard to maintain friendships. When you looked at your parents' relationship growing

00:04:06up, like what did their relationship feel like to you? Was it very loving? Was it toxic? Was it,

00:04:12what was it like? It was, it was tense. It was very tense. I think they really loved each other.

00:04:19And

00:04:20as you, as, as so many of us discover that those feelings of love are often fleeting and you have

00:04:32to build on something more. And they both had a deep connection to their faith and really wanted

00:04:39to build their marriage on that. But, you know, they grew up in that, they, they raised me and,

00:04:46and they, they had come out of that, uh, eighties movement of evangelicalism. That was so,

00:04:56it promised so many things without giving you a foundation of a real relationship moment to

00:05:05moment with God. There was no sense of, um, it in terms of my experience with that movement,

00:05:11which I grew up in, there wasn't a lot of, uh, space to be a mess and to make mistakes

00:05:17and to just

00:05:18like figure it out day by day. It was a lot of, here are the rules that you need to

00:05:23live by.

00:05:23And when you accomplish all these rules, then you will be happy. And they believed it as well.

00:05:29And then discovered, Oh, following all the rules all the time, isn't actually working.

00:05:34And then the marriage became really tense because of that and other factors.

00:05:39How do you think you're like watching your parents dynamic, like shaped your view on like

00:05:44love and marriage? Wow. What a great question.

00:05:51Damn. I didn't know I was going to therapy today, Alex. I wear my glasses for you.

00:05:58Okay. My, I think that,

00:06:02I think that it, it became an unsafe place emotionally because I, I didn't know what they

00:06:10were dealing with. You're too young to understand the inner dynamics of a grown relationship. And so

00:06:16it became a mystery to me. And it was like, I don't want, I don't want this dynamic, the,

00:06:23the sort of, uh, one person's really calm. One person's really hyper. Um, and they're constantly

00:06:30at each other's throats and there's so many problems. And it just was like, this is,

00:06:34they're figuring so much out. I better just kind of raise myself. And then, then going into later in

00:06:40my life, as I started, I got so boy crazy because then you're looking for something to fill those

00:06:44holes. And I don't know what, what it did to my view of relationships other than to know that I

00:06:53didn't really have anything modeled for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want.

00:06:57How do I do it? So I've probably spent a lot of time fishing for answers in all the wrong

00:07:03places.

00:07:04I mean, clearly,

00:07:05but it is helpful to hear you just kind of like talk about the foundation of what you were like

00:07:10living in this house and just watching your parents and knowing you wanted something different,

00:07:16but not knowing exactly what it was, because I think understanding that is important to what

00:07:21we're about to talk about and how you got to where you got to. Yeah. I just, I wanted a

00:07:26place to

00:07:26belong. It was really hard to feel like I belonged anywhere except the theater, which was,

00:07:31you know, that's why I went into that field. But yeah, there was a lot of that. There was a

00:07:36lot of

00:07:36my parents trying to protect me and which ended up being gaslighting without them knowing it a lot of

00:07:42Hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? And I met with, yeah, everything's fine.

00:07:48And which a lot of us do with our kids, right? You want to protect your kids.

00:07:52So it's so natural to go, no, no, everything's fine. Everything's okay. And you don't realize

00:07:56you're denying the child's reality. You're not acknowledging. Yeah. Something's

00:08:01wrong. We're not having a good day, but it will be okay. Right. You're constantly trying to

00:08:06understand. You can feel it. Like, you know, when something's off, like kids are so intuitive and

00:08:12then you're asking your parents, like, please let me in on what's happening in our family dynamic and

00:08:16them not allowing you to know that also probably like created a false sense of reality of like,

00:08:22you're then having to like finish the sentence for yourself because I know it's not okay,

00:08:26but they won't tell me. So I guess I'll just, again, be alone, go into my room and create whatever

00:08:32my narrative is going to be for myself because that's all you can do. Yeah. And actually what

00:08:35it did was, Oh, I must be wrong. Like I feel that something's wrong. I feel like something's off. I

00:08:42can

00:08:42feel that in my gut, but everyone is telling me that everything's okay. So my gut must be off.

00:08:48So when you start at a young age to believe my gut is off, I can't trust myself. I can't

00:08:54trust my

00:08:54own instincts. It makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you.

00:09:00Let's talk about the big house family cult. So you were in your early twenties, then you moved to LA,

00:09:07you're pursuing acting. How did you end up meeting this group? Yeah. So I was in LA. I went with

00:09:13a,

00:09:13I went with a girlfriend to, um, to her Saturday night Bible study that she was going to. It was

00:09:22very benign. It was, it was the same kind of Bible study I'd been going to having been raised in,

00:09:28in the Western, uh, evangelical church. It was super common Wednesday night, Saturday night

00:09:34meetings. You just show up and it's like an addition to church. It's a way of sort of keeping

00:09:37the church going beyond Sunday. And, uh, there's music and food and everybody talks and gets vulnerable

00:09:43and it felt very, very normal to me. Um, so yeah, at first it was just nothing to be suspicious

00:09:51about.

00:09:52And what were you feeling like you were wanting? Cause once your friend brought you,

00:09:57then you kept going and you're like, what were you looking for when you were kind of like starting

00:10:01to join this group? I was looking for a place to belong still. I think that was the constant search.

00:10:08Where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I had moved here. I'd lived in New York

00:10:12before then. And I loved New York. It felt like home. I was, you know, in Jersey for eight years

00:10:17and then Manhattan and, and I felt like a New Yorker and I loved the creativity there and the

00:10:22pulse and it just felt so great. And moving to LA, everything's really spread out and community was

00:10:27harder to find. So I, I was in need of community. Yeah. Which I think is a really normal thing.

00:10:34I have so many women write into me being like, I moved to new city. I don't know how to

00:10:38make

00:10:38friends. And I think a huge thing that people look for are groups to join. Like, can I join

00:10:43soul cycle? Right. Like we're going biking, whatever it is, like you're trying to find a

00:10:49community that you can feel a part of something. Your tribe. Yeah. That's it. And that is normal.

00:10:54You write about when things really started to go downhill was a man named Les entered the picture for

00:11:00this group. And he kind of started to take control of the group that you were seemingly already a

00:11:05part of. Yeah. What was your first impression of him? My first impression was that he was just kind

00:11:14of a jolly guy. I mean, I didn't think much of him. I met him across a room and he

00:11:21was

00:11:23just another face that I was meeting in LA. His whole family was with him when we met. And I,

00:11:32I, I do remember having this like check in my gut. And I thought it was because I,

00:11:42all right, I'll be really honest. I thought it was because I didn't like their faces.

00:11:48Have you ever met someone where you're just like, I don't like your face. Right.

00:11:51Cause you're kind of like, I don't know if I trust you or something about it.

00:11:53Yeah. And then you're like, what an asshole I am. Like somebody's face, like fuck off.

00:11:58But I get what you're saying. There's just something about it. You're like, huh?

00:12:01Yeah. And I, and the whole family, I just, there was something about me that was like,

00:12:05I don't like their faces. And then, and then I felt terrible. And I was like judging myself,

00:12:09you know, you know, joy, what an asshole you are. And so that was my first impression was just,

00:12:14here's a family of people I'd never met. Um, they're friends with my friends. I don't like their faces.

00:12:20And I'm, I'm a jerk for that and I'm going to get over it and let's get to know each

00:12:24other.

00:12:25I love the honesty. You're like something up for, meanwhile, it's like you had that gut feeling,

00:12:31but again, from a young age, you were kind of taught your gut is wrong. So don't think that

00:12:36there's anything wrong with this person. You're fine. Joy, keep going. Yeah. Yeah. And it couldn't

00:12:40be my gut. It has to be something else. What is it? Uh, faces. Yes. Right. Right.

00:12:45Right. So once Les kind of took over, can you describe to me how in the beginning, just like

00:12:52a dynamic shift, like what changed when this man kind of came into the picture?

00:12:57It, it, it started moving from something that felt very communal and very

00:13:03all, uh, participatory, like everyone was participating and it, it takes time. Like

00:13:11he couldn't have just come in and changed it overnight. You know, there were, there was

00:13:14a slow transition. It took about a year now that I've been in retrospect, I'm able to look

00:13:19back at it and it was slow. He started spending more time with us. He started, uh, investing

00:13:28in the lives of the group members and the people who were there. I mean, group members, I guess

00:13:33it was just the friends that were gathering and started to lead the meetings. And he was

00:13:40a pastor without a church at the time, which I found out later why you have to read the

00:13:46book to find out. Um, and so it felt like, Oh wow, what, what an amazing opportunity we

00:13:54have to give this sweet pastor without a church, a forum to speak and to share the things that

00:14:02are on his heart. And it felt encouraging. And, um, I felt like I was being challenged and called

00:14:09up to be more than I was currently living in, uh, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And that was

00:14:18exciting. I think it's important to like, as we're going through this journey, and obviously

00:14:23there's so many more details in the book, but I, I really appreciate you clarifying that it's like

00:14:28this, there was not a moment someone walked through the doors and it's like, this is how

00:14:33we're going to do things now. Because every human being in that establishment would have been like,

00:14:37this feels icky and weird. It's just like when we see an, in abusive relationships where people

00:14:44that are manipulative are very good at knowing it is a slow burn. So you don't notice it immediately.

00:14:50It's just this slow moment that all of a sudden you wake up one day big, wait, how did this,

00:14:54how did this happen? And so patient hearing a year of this person just kind of coming in and

00:14:59slowly getting closer to everyone and like settling down roots and making you trust this person

00:15:05was the beginning days. Yeah. Something you wrote about in the book, and this was kind of when things

00:15:11started to get more intense as you write about how you were told that independence created an internal

00:15:18rebellion against God. Can you explain what this meant and how this like impacted your life in this

00:15:25like view? Yeah, there, there are so many things in the book that I hope for people who grew up

00:15:34in this

00:15:35faith, hopefully it'll be a little easier for them to spot the healthy versus unhealthy versions of

00:15:43things, which I think in so many realms, there are healthy and unhealthy versions. The unhealthy version

00:15:50of that is independence is bad. Therefore, anything that separates you from the unity with the group or

00:16:04translate it to an abusive relationship, the person that you're with translated to a work environment,

00:16:09your work community. Anything that's inhibiting your ability to cast off yourself and serve other

00:16:19people in favor of yourself. That's problematic. And that needs to be addressed and shut down. Does

00:16:29that make sense? Is it clear? It makes so much sense. And I appreciate you kind of showing the different

00:16:35ways it can show up not just again, like in a group setting, but like an in a relationship or

00:16:40work like I

00:16:41think everyone listening daddy gang, like we've all been there where you start to feel like your independence

00:16:48is either being threatened, or you find yourself getting too wrapped up in something. And then we all have

00:16:53that moment we pray that we're like, wait, I was losing myself. Like we've all said that at some point

00:16:59in our

00:16:59life. But how far did you go before you realize you lost yourself? Everyone has a different

00:17:04experience. And there's a different barometer. And I get what you're talking about here is like,

00:17:07you are being preached, like, stop living this independent life, rely on us, the group.

00:17:14And you believe it. I believed it. Because it felt like, yeah, I don't want to be out here

00:17:24floating alone, doing everything on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots?

00:17:29We all have blind spots. That's a reasonable thing for someone to say to you.

00:17:32Yeah. So, okay, I've got blind spots. Well, I need community. I need people to help me see

00:17:38what my blind spots are. So if I live in super independence, then I'm not allowing people in.

00:17:43So I have to live in this place where I trust other people to see things for me that I

00:17:48can't see.

00:17:49The problem is, of course, if you are allowing the wrong people or person to speak into your life in

00:17:56that way, then they can just wreak havoc and say and do whatever they want. And so it's a very

00:18:01fine line.

00:18:02And do you think, Joy, like, that's why I'm happy you wrote so much about your childhood in the book

00:18:07and what we lightly talked about in the beginning of, like, you reference this loneliness that you

00:18:11felt as a child. And I think anyone that – you can be so independent that's so different than being

00:18:17lonely. And I think when you experience loneliness, we've all experienced it. Again,

00:18:22to what degree? Everyone has their own situation. But, like, you crave – we all crave human

00:18:28connection. And we crave feeling a part of something. So having that been so integral to

00:18:33your childhood of feeling alone and being an only child, I can understand you, like, seeking out

00:18:39this feeling of, like, safety and comfort and people that care about you and are bringing you in.

00:18:44Yeah.

00:18:45The cult, though, and how we talk about – we started with the independents. They used a lot of very,

00:18:50very, like, loaded language that you came to learn, like, bio-family. What did that term mean, Joy?

00:18:59Yes.

00:18:59Bio-family. That's the part where everybody runs out the door.

00:19:03Right?

00:19:04Like, that's where I lose you guys in the story.

00:19:07Yeah.

00:19:08Yeah. It was far into the story by then. We were so – and I think what I wrote was

00:19:13that he didn't

00:19:13have to be subtle – the last character didn't have to be subtle about it anymore. He could just

00:19:17start saying things like bio-family. Bio-family meant the family you were born into but was not

00:19:24necessarily the family that you may have been called to be a part of, called spiritually into.

00:19:30I do think a lot of people are more progressed now to be like, I can choose my family.

00:19:34Yeah.

00:19:35So, like, I understand the concept, but I get what you're saying now. It's like it was a whole

00:19:41different level of manipulation that was going on.

00:19:44But that's the thing. You understand the concept.

00:19:46Yes. Yes.

00:19:47So many of us do. It's the – it's a pain to go be with my family for the holidays

00:19:53because of all

00:19:54the – I'm not saying me, but so many of us say that. And I want to go to vacation

00:20:00with my friends

00:20:00because that's my family. Hey, fam. Hey, chosen fam. You hear it in church all the time. What's up,

00:20:06family? We're a tribe. And what's so insidious about it is that when someone uses something like

00:20:15that to say, actually, we're separating you, it's not just a – it's not just an extra club that you're

00:20:24a part of. It's actually creating that – suppressive person is another term. You know, that space of, like,

00:20:32you are separate. You are other. We are here. This is real family. And that is bio family.

00:20:40And now let's talk about that because that is, again, now where, like, that differentiation is

00:20:44important. It's not just, like, we're another extended family. Can you talk to me about how

00:20:48they encouraged you to distance yourself from your parents?

00:20:52Yeah. It's slow, man. Like, it doesn't – again, yeah, I've said this quote a couple times.

00:21:01Mark Vincente, who was in NXIVM, he has this great quote in The Vow. He's in the kitchen. He's like,

00:21:08nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, hey,

00:21:14I can't wait to fuck up my life. Like, where do I sign?

00:21:16Yes. So it happens really slowly. And they – there were things like small comments dropped. A lot of

00:21:27things like, hey, how was your time with your mom? Well, oh, it was fine. You know, like usual.

00:21:35Well, whatever. Yeah, I'm sorry. That's tough to not have a great relationship with your mom.

00:21:41Yeah, it's okay. I mean, she's my mom. Yeah, but, you know, don't forget. Like,

00:21:44we're your family. We're here for you. And just – she's just on a different – on a different

00:21:49path. And she's on a different way. Okay. So that's the easy one, right? Like, that's the first,

00:21:53like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see her. I can be – have space for her. And then it's

00:21:58like,

00:21:58well, well, did you talk to your mom about that? Yeah, I shared it with her. That just might –

00:22:05just be

00:22:06careful, you know, because you're just spiritually in a different place than her. And she may not be able

00:22:11to understand. And I would just hate for her to be sowing things into you that are not the truth

00:22:17of

00:22:17your identity. And, you know, generations are powerful. And so just – just be careful. Oh,

00:22:24gosh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, okay. And then that's the little seed. And then – and then the

00:22:31next one is, yeah, I like your mom. She's – you know, she's really sweet. But, yeah,

00:22:38she just really doesn't understand you. And I just want to encourage you, you know, she doesn't

00:22:41understand boundaries, Joy. So just please make sure that you're protecting your boundaries. And

00:22:46you don't need to call her back if you're not ready to. You don't need to – you don't need

00:22:50to – just

00:22:51because she's demanding something doesn't mean you have to give it to her. All things that sound

00:22:56reasonable in the right context. Wow.

00:23:00But you – that's why it takes time. Because it's not just something you can say to somebody. It has

00:23:05– you

00:23:05have to gain their trust. You have to – I had to believe so many other good things. I had

00:23:12to see

00:23:13mornings with coffee, sitting on the front porch talking about philosophy. I had to see

00:23:18parenting moments. I had to see so many things that built these – this illusion of trust.

00:23:24Yeah.

00:23:25That when someone who is a narcissist sews those things into you, then – not to use

00:23:32Christianese or weird terms, but whatever. We all say these things. So I still second guess

00:23:37myself all the time, as you can see. But it's so much more believable.

00:23:43Yeah. No, and I appreciate you kind of sharing that gradual conversation because then I can imagine

00:23:50it just kept going to the point of complete isolation from your family. I don't know if – I

00:23:55don't want to put words in your mouth. But then it can get – once you fully have their trust,

00:23:58it's like, Joy, you know you're better than that. You should not be speaking to your mother

00:24:03because you know she's going to bring you down. And then it's – and again, I think everyone,

00:24:07if we pause, has those moments with their friends, right? Where it's like, you know your friend needs

00:24:12to break up with their boyfriend. Let's just pretend, okay? We're going to use a really simple,

00:24:16simple conversation here, daddy gang. You know if you go to your friend and be like,

00:24:20your boyfriend is a dick. He is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him.

00:24:25Your friend is going to be like, no. Like, if anything, F you and walking up.

00:24:30Yeah, you're not in this relationship. You don't see what he's like at three in the morning,

00:24:33so sweet, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:34Yes. But if you – we all have that ability and it can be manipulative or not manipulative,

00:24:40but I believe with friendships, it's like you know you have to be gradual and easy with those

00:24:43friends. You'd be like, hey, how are you feeling? Then they open up to you. Then the next – because

00:24:48you know you can't – you don't want your friend to shut off and you know she won't listen to

00:24:51you

00:24:51unless you like lightly just give her the space to talk and then one day she may be like,

00:24:55well, what do you think? And then you open up to be like, I think you deserve better. I love

00:24:59you so

00:24:59much. I'm here no matter – it's a natural human being thing that can be good, but what you're

00:25:05describing, there was no good behind it because this person, the intent was to isolate you.

00:25:11Yes.

00:25:11Where what the example I'm giving is it can look the same from outside, but it's really like,

00:25:15no, you want your friend to have the best, but you're also recognizing human beings. If you walk in a

00:25:20room and you say, do this, they're going to be like, what's wrong with you? It's the gradualness

00:25:24that allows people to get into a position where you trust someone and then hopefully that person

00:25:31is not a manipulative psycho to be manipulating you in a way that is like going to fuck up your

00:25:37life. Yeah.

00:25:38And we trust, I think, as human beings. That's natural to be like, wow, I've seen you be such

00:25:42a great person in front of me. Why wouldn't I trust this person?

00:25:44Yes. Why wouldn't we? I mean –

00:25:46Sorry, I'm going on a rant, but I'm like –

00:25:47No, it's great because who wants to go through the world mistrusting everyone?

00:25:50That's not a happy way to live.

00:25:52Did your parents ever come to you with concern about this group?

00:25:58Absolutely. My dad was much more forceful and open about it and he's a very smart man. He's

00:26:10an incredibly educated man. So he had done so much research and he grew up in the 70s. I mean,

00:26:15talk about cults like they were everywhere in the 70s.

00:26:18Yeah. He's like, I think I know this.

00:26:19Yeah. Yeah. So he definitely was – he came to visit once and he was like, this feels weird,

00:26:27but I guess he told my mom like, no, I think this is a cult. This is bad news. But

00:26:31he was much more

00:26:32open with me about it. My mom was really smart and knew how to play the long game. So she

00:26:39just kind

00:26:40waited and watched. And the more that I communicated about that with Les and the other people in

00:26:49leadership in this group, the easier it was for them to see where my allegiances lay, lie.

00:26:59Okay. And there was a meeting when they actually explicitly just told me like, you really should

00:27:05just cut your dad out. Like you should stop talking to him. He's toxic.

00:27:10And how did you react when you would hear that?

00:27:12By that point, I was several years in and I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents. So

00:27:19I heard it. I didn't – I did not do it then, but it did plant a seed of the

00:27:29people who I have

00:27:31trusted to see my blind spots are telling me that this is what's best for me. And every time I

00:27:39talk

00:27:39to my dad, he's telling me I'm in a cult and he's worried about me and it's starting to wear

00:27:45on me.

00:27:45And eventually once I got married, it was easy to sort of pass the buck to my ex-husband or

00:27:51my

00:27:51husband at the time and let him deal with it. And then he just kind of completely shut the door

00:27:55and I didn't talk to my dad for six years. Yeah, it was awful.

00:28:00To condition you from doubting the group, you write about how they got control and they would use phrases

00:28:08like illegal questions. Can you give me an example of an illegal question?

00:28:14Sure. An illegal question would be, maybe I married the wrong person.

00:28:23You're not allowed to ask that question because you are already married. It's done. There's no

00:28:29questioning. You just move forward. That's a big one.

00:28:34Wow. I'm like, oh my God. Where do we go from there? Shit, Joy.

00:28:38Yeah. I'm trying to think of some other ones. You know, other illegal questions would be more like

00:28:44that I'm thinking off right at the top of my head is are more spiritually related.

00:28:49Did God call me to be a part of this family? Did am I, did I do the right thing

00:28:56by moving up here

00:28:57instead of staying in LA? Should I have taken this, this acting job? The questions that are

00:29:08retrospective, I guess. I haven't thought of it in that term, but yeah, it's, it's illegal questions

00:29:14are things that would cause you to call into question things that you've already chosen.

00:29:18Hmm. So you can't have doubt about anything essentially in your life. Yeah, you really can't,

00:29:23which is so, it was so damaging getting out of it and being on the other side of that to

00:29:30not be

00:29:31allowed to question where you are in your life. How could you ever grow? Well, that's the point

00:29:37really, right? Like if you're in a group like that, they don't want you to grow. They don't want you

00:29:40to

00:29:40grow. They don't want you to think for yourself, but I can imagine that creates this like numbness

00:29:46in you where you just start to get good at being like almost about to ask yourself the question.

00:29:51Nope. Don't ask because that I shouldn't do that. And, and then you, once you create a pattern within

00:29:56yourself, it's hard to revert that pattern. Yeah. Okay. We need to talk about one tree hill.

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00:30:42your best shop skincare at Sephora. Okay. We need to talk about one tree hill because I think what's

00:30:49so fascinating about this story is the world was watching you on one of the biggest shows

00:30:56on television still to this day is so beloved. I rewatch it. Any chance like that? I love that

00:31:03you watched it. You don't even know. Like I am obsessed. Like I could just pop episode one on again

00:31:10and let's rewatch the whole thing. Such a fan. But again, it is so interesting and it is really the

00:31:17proof of like we don't know what people are going through and we see these celebrities or actors or

00:31:21singers or whoever public facing and you think you know their life. And while you were on this huge TV

00:31:26show, you were also dealing with this hell. Yeah. Can you take me to like what drew you to one

00:31:33tree

00:31:33hill? Like you're in this cult at the time that you go to get this job, right? Yeah. Okay. Talk

00:31:39to

00:31:39me. What drew you to one tree hill at this time? I, I was, um, well, they actually shot the

00:31:46pilot

00:31:46without me. They shot it with somebody else. I had gotten the script for it. I, it was called Ravens

00:31:51at

00:31:51the time. I turned it down. I really wanted to just focus on film. And, um, and I just said,

00:31:56I,

00:31:57this is, I just got off a soap opera in New York. I want to try something different.

00:32:00So I turned it down. Um, a couple of grounded pilots later, it came back around and they said

00:32:06they're recasting, they're shooting in two weeks. And will you please go screen test for this role?

00:32:11So I did. Love, um, how involved? Cause I think again, when I just want to like clarify, like when

00:32:18people are listening to this and like, hold on, wait, so you're in a cult, but you're still allowed

00:32:21to work. Like, I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time.

00:32:26Like, Oh, you're allowed to go and work and be without these people. Oh, right.

00:32:29Do you know what I mean? Like, can you explain how involved they were in your decision to take

00:32:34the show? And like, how did that work at the time?

00:32:36Yeah, that's a great point. Um, yeah, that's one of the things that also made it so insidious

00:32:41is that it wasn't a join us, put on this robe and let's go all live in the forest together.

00:32:49Um, yeah, there, there was still a lot of autonomy. I think that's sort of how he kept everybody

00:32:58locked in because we were all really smart. Like it was, this wasn't a group of, of people who were

00:33:04not smart. Like everyone was ambitious and had careers. And so he had to have known coming in that

00:33:12this is not going to work if I try and ask everybody to just move up North and be live

00:33:18with

00:33:18me in this weird little house, big house. Um, so yeah, it, it was very much, um, communication

00:33:28based on daily activities, hanging out, lunches, um, lots of phone calls and email chains and

00:33:36texting wasn't as much of a thing back then, but we were in constant community and communication with

00:33:44each other. So it didn't feel like, I mean, I don't know that he had to work that hard in,

00:33:50in, in that regard because he meaning less daddy gang. Um, I always wanted to say that

00:34:00it's your moment. Yes. Uh, yeah. I, so I think that was, it's not like the traditional, uh,

00:34:07cult when you think of that, you were not all living on a commune. I mean, there was a big

00:34:11house

00:34:12that, that set several people all lived in at once, but they were also their own families with,

00:34:18with jobs and other things going on, um, that they all lived nearby. Uh, yeah. Does that,

00:34:27does that make sense? Does that help? I completely understand. It's like,

00:34:31there's someone constantly in communication with you. And so if anything, like when you're starting

00:34:36a new job, everyone feels like, Oh, I have no friends here. What I'm going to, you had this safety

00:34:40net and the support system that was ever present. So it didn't make you ever feel like you were alone,

00:34:46which is huge to have, especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling

00:34:51like, Oh, I am a little out of place. You're kind of never out of place because you have this

00:34:55support

00:34:55system. Yeah. You played Haley James Scott. Yes. Um, in what ways did you relate to your character?

00:35:04Initially, I really related with this sort of awkward girl next door thing that, that felt very

00:35:09comfortable for me. Um, it, it felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be

00:35:17because a lot of the roles I would get, you know, I was blonde and, uh, I had a big

00:35:24personality. And so

00:35:25I would get a lot of the, these sort of leading lady parts or, you know, ingenue parts. But I

00:35:31always

00:35:31felt like, I even say in the book, I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like trash panda, like

00:35:35cleaning

00:35:36dumpster lettuce out of my paws. Like I've always just felt awkward and like weird. And so it was

00:35:43fun to be able to step into this character that felt actually so much more like me than what I

00:35:47was

00:35:47usually getting cast for. So that was fun. If you had to say, what do you think was the most

00:35:52iconic

00:35:54Haley James Scott moment? I know that's so hard. Give us one. Oh my God. Okay. I mean the most

00:36:02iconic Haley moment, it's hard because so many of them were with James Lafferty. Um, you know,

00:36:10that, that kiss in the rain when they, when Nathan and Haley first finally get together and they just

00:36:16like, Oh, have that kiss in the rain and that hose with holes in it and freezing cold water was

00:36:23pouring

00:36:23down on us. It was so fun. I feel like the reality was everyone. You thought it looked like rain

00:36:28and James

00:36:29and I had never kissed before and he was, you know, 17 and I was, uh, cradle robbing at that

00:36:36point.

00:36:36And you know, it was just awkward. You're smashing teeth and trying to, you know, your young kids just

00:36:42like, how do we kiss each other on camera? I'm obsessed. It was fun. It was one of the most

00:36:47iconic

00:36:48scenes. And I feel like I do think of that when I think of you guys. So that was a

00:36:51good one. Um,

00:36:52what is your favorite memory just from the show? There are a lot, but there are not as many as

00:36:59I

00:36:59wish there were because at some point I kind of just checked out emotionally, but I would say

00:37:05early on, we, there were always hurricane warnings and hurricane, uh, and, and actual hurricanes that

00:37:12came through. And when it wasn't too bad, but it was enough that they were like, Hey, everybody just

00:37:18go inside for a little while. We would often stay at somebody's house and the electricity would go out

00:37:24and you'd light candles and sit around and hang out and meet at the waffle house and be like, well,

00:37:30we got the next four hours at the waffle house. Somebody bring a deck of cards and, you know,

00:37:34hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating waffles. That, that was fun. That was early

00:37:39days of bonding when it was getting to know each other, trying to figure out who, who was who,

00:37:45who fit where. And, um, yeah, I really loved that.

00:37:49It, it, it makes my heartbreak for you that you, you know, just said like, there were not as many

00:37:54as I wish I had, because obviously you did this show for so long and you write about in the

00:37:59book,

00:37:59how, while you were filming the leaders of this cult that you were a part of told you not to

00:38:06trust

00:38:06your co-stars and to essentially stay away from them. Um, how did isolating yourself affect

00:38:15your dynamic on set? Well, I think I just became

00:38:24someone that nobody really knew how to connect with. When the cameras were rolling,

00:38:32my guard all went down. I was a hundred percent present. I was there. It was a major catharsis for

00:38:38me actually. The ability to, uh, just be completely free and vulnerable. Yeah. So I,

00:38:46that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like it saved my

00:38:50life in a lot

00:38:51of ways, because it was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that.

00:38:54Yep. But when they said cut and it, we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting. Um,

00:39:03I, I would only let people in so far. And I think again, people in abusive relationships can relate

00:39:10to that too, because you, there's too much at stake if you allow in someone else's

00:39:18perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your

00:39:26life. So whether it's a group of people or one person, a lot of people who are in abusive situations

00:39:34will hide the abuse because like, I don't know why I'm living in this misery, but I don't want

00:39:43your opinion about why I'm living in this misery because then I'll have to maybe really deal with

00:39:47it in a different way. Yeah. It's almost like you kind of, you're so, Oh, you are aware that

00:39:55something is off and weird, but you're so in, in like immersed in that world. Like protective

00:40:02almost. Yeah. That it's kind of like you, you know that people wouldn't fully understand the extent

00:40:07of it. So it's not worth letting them in at all. Yeah. But I wonder like on that set with

00:40:14all these

00:40:14like young people, like, did you have moments as much as you were like really being manipulated by

00:40:22this cult? Like, did you have moments where you're like, fuck, like what, what am I doing? Like, or

00:40:29were you still couldn't really see it at that point? I couldn't see what am I doing? I felt mostly

00:40:35superior to other people. Um, and I felt mostly like they just can't understand. And I've got an

00:40:43answer. I've, I've figured, I mean, that's any cult. That's the idea is we've got something special

00:40:51that you don't have. Unfortunately, that really colored a lot of my relationships with people.

00:40:57But the thing is, your gut never goes away. I don't think. I don't think so either. So I still

00:41:05felt this sense of self loathing. And like, it's an unending ladder that you're just constantly trying

00:41:11to climb to achieve, to do the things that are going to save you or whatever you're trying to,

00:41:16whatever enlightenment your level you're trying to reach. And I was so in that zone that, uh,

00:41:25everything I did was every interaction I had was, was colored by that. And I did

00:41:31at the same time, because I had this sort of self loathing, I also really, uh, I guess that maybe

00:41:39was jealous of other people on the show too. Not, not the way that women are jealous of each other

00:41:44in a cliche way, but more of the freedom to be a mess, the freedom to just explore life and

00:41:52ask

00:41:52questions that weren't illegal. And just the freedom to like live your life. Yeah. I was jealous

00:41:59of the, of the freedom to live life. And, and I, but I was so committed to my belief system

00:42:06that I would never allow myself to cross over into that. And I think it just created a difficult

00:42:11dynamic for having a relationship. Like a joy just has a, you can only go so far. There's a,

00:42:17there's a wall when now, when you look back, like if you were honest with yourself, cause you can now

00:42:22see it in a different way. Like what do you think they all thought of you? Well, I think they

00:42:28thought that I was stubborn and, uh, weird and in a cult.

00:42:40Eventually. Yeah. No, they knew, they knew, they knew because I think they probably felt really bad

00:42:49for me. How soon do you think they knew? Give us by two years. So yeah, I would say by

00:42:54season two,

00:42:55they were like, I think this is a, like a cult. I think this is probably bad. Did anyone ever

00:43:02try

00:43:02to say anything to you? Well, I did have one really good friend who was a, she was one of

00:43:07the

00:43:07set PAs and she, I trusted her so much. I think honestly, because she was Catholic and she was the

00:43:14only religious person on set. And so I was like another religious person. So you may not be as far

00:43:23along spiritually as I am. However, do you want me to introduce you to less? I've got a great guy

00:43:31for

00:43:32eating. Yeah. So dark. But I did trust her and she and her husband were wonderful people. And, um,

00:43:41my husband at the time and I used to hang out with them all the time and we'd go over

00:43:44their house for

00:43:45wine nights and it was like a safe haven. And so she definitely tried in, she again was like my

00:43:53mother,

00:43:53very smart, long game, like knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly

00:43:59present questions, but she knew she couldn't push too hard or I'd push her away. Um, really,

00:44:05really good friend. And, um, I so appreciate that, but nobody else on the show.

00:44:12No, nobody ever said, I mean, Tyler once just flat out came out and was like, uh, are you in

00:44:16a cult?

00:44:18Stop. I love him so much. Stop. That should tell you so much about his personality. He's so great.

00:44:24And when someone would say that to you, like, what did you say?

00:44:26No, I was like, no, I hate that people can't understand the depth of relationship that happens

00:44:34when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why does it have to be a cult?

00:44:39Why does it have to be weird? Like, I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's

00:44:44like

00:44:44to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad and shallow must your life be?

00:44:48Oh my God. You doing that even now, Joy, I'm like, Oh my God, I feel like shit. But I

00:44:53could see how

00:44:53people around you then would just like roll their eyes and be like, okay, I'm literally walking back

00:44:57on set. Like there's no point. So you can, and, and you have, again, we have all been there when

00:45:03someone genuinely believes something so deep to their core. There is no point to try to change

00:45:09that. Everyone is on their own path and journey and you got to let people figure it out on their

00:45:14own through their own time. It doesn't mean they didn't care, but I can imagine it's like, well,

00:45:18what are we all going to do? Have an intervention? Like we're here to do a job.

00:45:22She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about. You know, that's it. It just became

00:45:25a professional environment. And they did. I know Paul Johansson and probably Greg Pranger,

00:45:31executive producer and a couple other people had a meeting at one point, like let's talk about this.

00:45:37Do we need to be worried about her? You know, uh, is she financially, this looks bad. Is she in

00:45:43danger?

00:45:43Like, what do we need to do? But I think at the end of the day, they realized exactly what

00:45:48you just said

00:45:49and nobody can wake you up, but you like at some point, it's just the right time.

00:45:55You write about how at the time you couldn't be friends with Sophia Bush because of your own

00:46:01insecurities and militant beliefs. What was it about Sophia that made you uncomfortable?

00:46:09I, I think we were both approaching life from a similar way, but from opposite perspectives.

00:46:19So the motive I think was similar in she, she, I didn't, I'm not her. I didn't grow up as

00:46:25her,

00:46:26but I, I think she, uh, grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and how things should

00:46:32be done and, um, and, and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful, but the way that we

00:46:41were approaching it maybe was too similar. And because the, the conclusions that we had come to

00:46:46about life and God and all those things were very different, there just was no space for listening.

00:46:55She would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and, uh, hear me than I would have

00:47:01been at the time. Yeah. But I think fundamentally there was probably a similarity. I mean, I think

00:47:06for a while, um, Brooke Davis and Haley didn't get along on set anyways or on the screen. So it

00:47:14kind

00:47:15of worked, but like, was it difficult on set where you're just like not getting completely along with

00:47:21someone, but like, you don't know how to handle it and you're young. Yeah. Those were, those days

00:47:24were hard because I, it was this sort of, um, and I think I write about this too. I know

00:47:31I did,

00:47:31um, the paralysis and desire at the, the feeling of like, I want to connect with you. I want to

00:47:37be

00:47:37friends with you. Why can't we, why don't you know how, why don't I know how, what is wrong? And

00:47:45yet we

00:47:46have to show up and pretend like we're really close. And so we're going through the motions of

00:47:51close friendship, but not actually knowing how to connect. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. I mean,

00:47:56I think you could feel that in, in romantic relationships too, where you know, you love

00:48:01someone, you know, you have all these things in common. You just like, why are we not, what's

00:48:06going on? Yeah. Why is it not working? Yeah. But especially when you're that young and you have

00:48:10so many other friends and so many other things at some point, you're just like, ah, I don't know.

00:48:13Yes. Yeah. Like all good. Let's just leave it at what it is. Yeah. Um, have you guys talked about

00:48:19that and like, just kind of gone through everything that happened back then in the day or

00:48:25a little bit, not, not as much as I would like. Um, and you, on drama Queens, we've definitely

00:48:30talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great it was to reconnect and

00:48:37the

00:48:37feelings of, um, unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time, but no, it's,

00:48:45it's an ever evolving journey. There are still plenty of people in my life that I,

00:48:51man, shame is a tough thing. Like I, one of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling

00:48:58this story now, whereas before I was so reluctant at first, but I think shame gets smaller and

00:49:04smaller, the more you expose it and the more you just open up and say this, this is my mess.

00:49:09Like, uh, but even having conversations with my stepsister or like my little brother and

00:49:18having those moments of like, Hey, I disappeared for 10 years and I'm really sorry. Like, I don't,

00:49:29I've had those moments very briefly, but it's painful because it's shame. You know, I can't imagine

00:49:36joy, honestly, like, and I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like, again,

00:49:43back to an abusive relationship. Like it takes so long for someone to just even like get back to,

00:49:52you can't even get back to who you were because you were so young. So it's like, who am I

00:49:56without

00:49:58this abusive situation that I was in for so long? And I think like the repairing of the relationships

00:50:03from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like,

00:50:09it's almost just that this huge heavy thing that you know is sitting in the corner, but you're like,

00:50:14fuck, but first I got to make sure I'm really good. Cause then I, I first have to make sure

00:50:18I'm

00:50:19good. So then I can begin to rebuild these relationships because if I'm still not good,

00:50:23then it's like, what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations on top of

00:50:27that, the difficult conversations, you do kind of have to acknowledge what happened and it's again,

00:50:33and it's again, and it's again, and it's like taking accountability and also like asking for grace

00:50:38and understanding. And it's like, there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone

00:50:46after being a different person in the relationship. And it's like, it's a lot. I have a lot of empathy

00:50:51for you. Thank you. I, you're, you're speaking so eloquently about it. And I, it's really interesting

00:50:57to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrasing things puts

00:51:02things in perspective for me that, you know, I lived it. It's all in my brain in a jumble, but

00:51:07as much as I was able to put on paper, my thoughts, there's still so many things that are tangled

00:51:14that I

00:51:15still try and unwind. But what you were just saying about needing to feel like I'm, I'm good. I'm okay.

00:51:20Before I go reach out for me, that was more isolating. Like I needed to connect with people

00:51:31and not even necessarily in a, in a way of like, Hey, clean me up. You know, that was obviously

00:51:40I

00:51:40have to do my own work, but, um, experiencing the grace that you just said and that the forgiveness

00:51:46and the looking across at somebody who's just like, I made mistakes too. And it's okay. Like

00:51:56we're all doing that. That's welcome to being a human being. Hello. Good morning. I think that's

00:52:01the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have this moment where they're like,

00:52:06Whoa, I thought everyone was going to just like, never forgive me and turn their backs. Yeah. And

00:52:11everyone's like, babe, we've been waiting for you. Yes. Like we love you. Welcome back. Yes. And I

00:52:17think it's like, it's humbling because again, when you're in the abusive situation, the abuser makes

00:52:23you feel like none of them love you. They will be, they will not be there. If you leave me,

00:52:28I'm the

00:52:28only thing you have. And so you believe that. And then the minute you leave, everyone's like, Oh my God,

00:52:34who's going to, who's going to catch her first? We're all here. We're ready with open arms.

00:52:37And that must be very overwhelming. It was that was the biggest shock leaving because it has to

00:52:44get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the world rather than stay another second in that

00:52:53situation. And then turns out you're not. And then it turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise

00:52:58and the biggest gift. We have so much still to go through. We're not there yet, but that makes me

00:53:02so

00:53:02happy to know because I think so many people listening are like, Oh my God, I needed to hear

00:53:07that because they may be sitting in their car listening to this going home to that abuser

00:53:11being like, wait, maybe this is the sign that like, cause I do feel that right now. I feel

00:53:16like I only have him or I only have her. And then it's like, yeah, they are making you feel

00:53:21that way on the one tree hill thing. Because I do know, and I talk about this a lot with

00:53:27actors,

00:53:27like there is this like voyeuristic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics. And

00:53:32that's why I was asking about the Sophia thing, because it was interesting seeing you write

00:53:36about it in the book because we all fell in love with you and her and all the characters

00:53:40on this show. I have to ask because it's call our daddy. Fans are speculating that things

00:53:48between you and Hillary are not great, not friends anymore. Don't follow each other on

00:53:52social media. I don't want to get too much into it because I know it's like this is your

00:53:55personal life. I just wondered if you have anything to like say about it.

00:53:59I love Hillary. I have always and will always and I don't have any problem with her. There've

00:54:06been some bizarre misunderstandings that I really hope we can figure out one day. But

00:54:11I, I love that girl. Yeah, thank you for sharing. Sure. Um, have you had any conversations about

00:54:16signing up for the reboot? No, it's way too early to even talk about that. Okay. I know. I don't

00:54:22know

00:54:22if it was a press release or something leaked or I don't know. I mean, I had heard about it.

00:54:25I'm like, are we going back to tree Hill? Haley, we're going back. Okay. Good to know too early,

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00:55:34on target.com. I'm curious now back into, so you're in one tree Hill, we're watching all of this success

00:55:41and then the rumors obviously start. Is she in a cult? What is happening? How was that like

00:55:48affecting your career outside of one tree Hill? Cause I knew you wanted to do more things and

00:55:53didn't you have like an opportunity on Broadway that they stopped? Like how much did they have

00:55:58a hold of your career? Yeah, that was tough. That was a tough pill to swallow. Um, I, yeah, I

00:56:04mean,

00:56:04gosh, we started out on the show and it was budding and it was so successful and you know,

00:56:09the fans of TRL and now the show's everywhere and we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting auditions

00:56:14for huge studio movies or screen tests rather. It was like they were, they were much farther along

00:56:19than I had ever been because once you have that kind of exposure, the studios are much more likely

00:56:24to, to sign off on you on their list. Um, and so it was, it was an exciting time and

00:56:30I was so far

00:56:33along in, in my submission and abdication to this group that I, and the thing was that it was disguised

00:56:44as submission to God. And so, um, in that, from that place, everything about my career started to

00:56:53then funnel through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right

00:56:59path

00:56:59or taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're

00:57:05somebody with ADHD who is just like, I can't, I can stand in front of a line at Starbucks for

00:57:0910

00:57:09minutes and everyone hates me. Like, so let alone big life decisions, it's so paralyzing if you don't

00:57:16know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all going to work out okay. So yeah, there

00:57:22were,

00:57:22I, I was cast as Belle in Beauty and the Beast and, uh, gave that up at the, um, at

00:57:28the advice,

00:57:29the heavy handed advice of, um, less, the less character in the book. Um, there were some really

00:57:39big movies that I was on a short list for audition for was pinned for. And then I had to

00:57:47call my agent

00:57:47and be like, you know what? I actually don't, I don't want, I don't want to do this. I don't

00:57:51want to

00:57:51continue auditioning for this. Why do you think they didn't want you to do it? Well, I think it's

00:57:57just control. Like the more that I worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked,

00:58:05the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities and my creativity. You know, if I just

00:58:10stayed playing one character for 10 years and I never did anything else, then they know where I am

00:58:16all the time, basically. Um, I'm not gaining a sense of, uh, freedom in traveling, traveling all

00:58:25over the world. I'm not meeting new people cause they, they had a handle on who was on set,

00:58:29who the people were that I was working with. They knew how to control my perspectives of all the

00:58:33people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in New York and I'm, and I'm in a new show,

00:58:39if I'm traveling to Greece to film a movie, if I'm, they, there was just no way to control that.

00:58:44They also controlled your finances. Um, yes, ma'am. Okay.

00:58:52How did that come to be? And did you have any hesitations when you handed over

00:58:58your finances to these people? Yes, I did. Okay. Your gut never goes away.

00:59:03Nope. I, I got married, um, to another group member and, uh,

00:59:13uh, very Christian tradition, maybe in other religions too. I don't know where you, uh,

00:59:20merge your finances when you get married. Um, I think there's probably a lot of secular people

00:59:25who also merge their finances when they get married as a, as a sign of unity and we're doing

00:59:31this together. Like, great. Uh, and so that's what I did. I just did the dutiful Christian wife

00:59:39thing and merged my accounts and it never, it didn't occur to me, of course, that I was going

00:59:49to be taken advantage of. It was more just that gut check of like, this is mine. Yeah. Like I've

00:59:56been working really hard for all of this and, um, I'm not sure that I should just be randomly

01:00:04adding someone else's name to the account, but it's, I'm going to marry him. So I guess it's okay.

01:00:11So you end up marrying who was the cult leader's son. Yeah. And you talk about him as QB in

01:00:17the book.

01:00:18Um, how would you describe your relationship at first with this man? Playful and, uh,

01:00:29easy. Um, we didn't have a lot in common there. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation,

01:00:36but there was, I mean, I was, I kind of run out of options. Like I, I couldn't date a

01:00:43non-Christian.

01:00:44I couldn't, um, really date anybody outside of the group or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere

01:00:53outside of that area. So yeah, it just became this sort of arranged situation.

01:01:01Can you explain the concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority in relationships?

01:01:08Yeah. Super typical in many, um, Christian communities. This idea that, um, the man is the

01:01:17spiritual authority in a household. So spiritual authority would be, I think, as far as I understood

01:01:24it in the group, it was the man, it basically gets the last word on everything and he gets the

01:01:30final say

01:01:31and you really are not allowed to question him. You can't question his decisions. You can't know

01:01:41about deep, intimate things in his life. He has to go to other men for that, but he's responsible for

01:01:47you and he's supposed to know all the deep, intimate things about your life. That's how it was presented

01:01:51to me, but not in those words. Otherwise I would have been like, y'all crazy. Let me clarify, Alex.

01:01:58That's not how it was presented. Yeah. Yeah. It was a way better way that they talked about it.

01:02:03Um, you saved yourself for marriage, but ultimately you write about having no sexual desire for your

01:02:11husband at the time. How did this impact the way you understood sex? It was so difficult. Um,

01:02:20I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do it. I can only come from

01:02:26my Western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things. But

01:02:33for me, based on my upbringing, um, and I was really, I, like I said, I was boy crazy. Like

01:02:40I had a crazy

01:02:40sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't have sex until I was married. Um, it felt like, uh,

01:02:50this promise that I had been given as a good evangelical was a big crock. Like what the heck?

01:02:59I thought if I saved myself for marriage, then the promises, amazing sex and super deep intimacy

01:03:07and nothing's ever as good. And it's just like the best thing ever. God created sex and it's just

01:03:12going to be the best thing ever. And then we have sex and it's like, why do I feel so

01:03:18sad? Why,

01:03:19why is this not, I don't feel more connected to you. I feel farther away from you. I,

01:03:25uh, it's, it wasn't. And, and I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving

01:03:31myself for marriage. It was just that I married the wrong person. I mean, that also is hard to say

01:03:35because I have an amazing daughter. And so is anything wrong? Like I, here I am hopefully able

01:03:40to help a lot of people. So it's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong, but, uh,

01:03:45in the

01:03:46moment, I definitely felt like, Oh no, this is, this can't be it. This is bad. When you realized

01:03:53that, obviously I know you wrote about in the book, which was very sad about this schedule

01:04:01that was essentially implemented into your relationship. Can you talk about that?

01:04:07It's so, it's so wild to even just hear you say that it's sad because I haven't talked to a

01:04:15lot

01:04:16of people about that. I wrote it and just was like, okay, I wrote it, move on, keep going. Um,

01:04:24that I, to clarify, yeah, daddy gang, uh, that it was, I didn't have this attraction. I didn't have

01:04:34the drive. Um, really ever, we just weren't connected. We weren't the right people for each

01:04:40other. And so, um, because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule

01:04:52basically of like, here's how you can, you just have to do it. Just do it. This is your duty.

01:04:58This

01:04:58is your job as a wife. Your emotions will fall in line. If you do it enough,

01:05:04then eventually you will find a way to enjoy it. You will find a way to feel connected.

01:05:10And you know, it's at that point, you're like, again, the things that you hear,

01:05:14if you heard it right away, you'd be like, this shit's crazy. I'm out. But when you're that far

01:05:19down the line and you've so much at stake and now I'm in a marriage and now I'm, I'm tied

01:05:24up with,

01:05:25and I have no other friends outside of this group. And I've, I've made a commitment and I take

01:05:29marriage seriously. And I made a promise before God, like, this is something I really want to

01:05:34figure out how to make it work. So I, I hated it, but I was like, okay, if this is

01:05:41what I'm supposed

01:05:41to do, I will just, I'll just make sure that it's happening every, you know, well, he was back and

01:05:50forth between, uh, the Pacific Northwest and Wilmington a lot. So the schedule had more to do

01:05:55with when he was in town. But, um, yeah, it was, it, it was a routine that we, that I

01:06:01had to

01:06:02participate in, in order to keep the peace in my marriage. When he would come into town, would you

01:06:09like, Oh my God, my God, like I just, my stomach dropped every single time. And in fact, it really

01:06:14affected my relationships afterwards, like other boyfriends that I would have when I had to go pick

01:06:19them up from the airport. I had so much PTSD from showing up at the airport to see him knowing

01:06:24that I

01:06:24was going to have to start this sex schedule for the next like two weeks or three weeks or whatever.

01:06:30Um, and it's so sad because he like poor guy, like never had a shot, was raised by this narcissist.

01:06:40He's, he's thrust into a marriage with a girl that's not right for him. He's doing the best that

01:06:45he can. He's been fed all these lies about men and machismo and warriors and all this shit that like,

01:06:50he was raised in that. So it was just a mess all around.

01:06:54No, it, it just makes me really, yes, it is sad joy. It is sad to hear you because I

01:07:01think a lot

01:07:02of women can relate to that of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace that is

01:07:09the way to go. And it's so frustrating because a lot of people, unless you're involved in something,

01:07:15don't understand how to break the cycle because a lot of times I think as women, we're just taught

01:07:21like it's better to just appease the situation and just like not cause a problem rather than

01:07:27speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of it because that could lead to violence,

01:07:32which you write about in the book. There's so many things that can come from going against the

01:07:37grain. So sometimes you just fall in line. It's exactly what you were talking about with your

01:07:40Paris story, by the way. Like that's the same thing that like I'm stuck in the situation.

01:07:46I just want to, how do I make it just go away? Just get it over with. It'll be done.

01:07:51Maybe this

01:07:51will help. Maybe this will be the thing that brings us together. It's, it's a reasonable thing

01:07:56to assume because there are so many marriage therapists out there who will tell you when

01:08:00they're looking at a couple who's been married for 25 years and they're not interested in each

01:08:03other anymore. They're like, listen, you have to go through the motions sometimes because it'll

01:08:06help you remember who you were together a long time ago. It's not crazy advice. It's just crazy

01:08:11advice in that circumstance. Yes. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. That's a good one. At this time

01:08:18also, I wanted to just like kind of talk about the juxtaposition of like we have Haley and Nathan

01:08:23being this it couple on television. Did you ever catch yourself like loving your TV marriage and almost

01:08:30like using that as a form of escapism from your real marriage? Oh, for sure. I did. Yes.

01:08:36Yes. And, and only in the moments when the cameras were rolling. And so it worked with

01:08:40the storyline. I mean, Nathan Haley had great chemistry and so I, I leaned into it. Um, but

01:08:47I thank God James and I were able to really maintain a totally professional relationship.

01:08:54Like I just never, I always sort of saw him in real life as a brotherly figure and he was

01:08:59lovely. Um, so we never crossed that boundary and I never had to worry about having feelings

01:09:06for like, that would have been really, really difficult. Um, but no, I, but I just knew also

01:09:12like because of the controlling aspect of this cult, like, were they okay with your like having

01:09:18even just like an onscreen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this co-star? Like,

01:09:23how did that go?

01:09:25Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he, he hated it, but, um, he also wanted me to quit acting

01:09:30so I would stop making out with other guys. There you go. Yeah. There you go. Um, okay. So

01:09:36as you're, um, we're kind of getting towards like now, like the big moment where you're going to

01:09:42realize you need to leave, but I want to talk about, and I know, I love that you mentioned this

01:09:46earlier. There is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time, but something so

01:09:53beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter and that you write about so beautifully

01:10:01of like, she's your everything. And so you did get something incredible out of such a horrific

01:10:09experience for those 10 years. Um, when you had this child with your husband, like, had you guys

01:10:15talked about wanting to start a family together? He wanted to, I wasn't ready because I was miserable

01:10:22and it just took a long time. I mean, it, it took long enough for me to get to a

01:10:29place where I felt

01:10:30like, okay, we're, we're happy enough. Like we're friendly enough. It seems like we're on a pretty good

01:10:38track. So let's just, I think we're ready now. I didn't know when you're supposed to have a baby

01:10:47or not supposed to, or I didn't know what to do, but I knew that I was not in misery

01:10:56and I, and I

01:10:57wanted, I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a baby. I always wanted to be a mom. Um, but

01:11:03I didn't

01:11:04want to do it in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil. And that took about six years

01:11:09to get to that point. So you talk about you're on set of one tree Hill. Someone's like, are you

01:11:16in a

01:11:16cult? You're like, no, you don't get it. Take me to the moment that it did click for you. Oh,

01:11:25this is

01:11:25not one big happy family. This is a cult. Yeah. When did you realize? It was after the show.

01:11:34Unfortunately, it had just ended in November. I believe I was in LA in February and pilot season.

01:11:41And I mean, there's no auditioning up in the Pacific Northwest. It wasn't a life that I was

01:11:47realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance and the only income

01:11:52that we had. And all the money was gone at that point. So, which I didn't totally know, but they

01:12:00knew. So I think that's probably why my ex and his dad were like, yeah, maybe you should get an

01:12:05apartment in LA. Maybe time to get back on set. Let's get you a job. Uh, so I, yeah, we

01:12:13were, we were in LA

01:12:15and I, uh, have been in therapy. I felt more like I would like to talk with someone about all

01:12:22of the

01:12:23misery that I'm experiencing. And I would like that person to be outside of this family. And

01:12:29as I did that, the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries.

01:12:33And because my ex-husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist

01:12:40was addressing with me was, Hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you,

01:12:46around you. This, this is not okay on a, on a routine basis. Yeah, absolutely. And so I started

01:12:54to implement boundaries and, uh, and I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from,

01:13:04um, um, um, a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative

01:13:12perspectives. My therapist, I remember probably two months after that was like, are we ready to call

01:13:20it a cult yet? Which was brave of her. And I, I was like, no, like I would not be

01:13:30that stupid. Like,

01:13:31no, that is not me. Guess what? Yep. She was right. It took, it took a minute though. It like,

01:13:44it may be, I was very uncomfortable with it. And I, I had to, uh, to really sit with that

01:13:49for a while.

01:13:50But once it, once I, once she said that and all the pieces really started to like lock into place,

01:13:56it became clear that it was really unhealthy. I think something really, um, beautiful also that

01:14:01you're talking about again, to anyone in a situation similar with these themes of essentially

01:14:07being isolated to then be abused and manipulated is the minute you have someone who doesn't want

01:14:17you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control. That is the biggest red flag because

01:14:22you just getting a little bit of an opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with

01:14:29you and help you set boundaries, which every single human being should have boundaries in their life

01:14:33with other humans. And you're seeing this, like it was such an opportunity for you again, to grow and

01:14:40to recognize like what you didn't want in life, but that completely threatens your ex-husband's ability

01:14:47to control you. And so I think that for people listening, I hope you can take it. If like, if

01:14:51you feel

01:14:52like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most,

01:14:57that is your sign that you are in an abusive situation. They need, they can only control you

01:15:03if you are alone with them. Of course you can go to work and you can have friends, but you

01:15:09know that

01:15:10there's a different level of going to work. And when's the last time you actually had a girl's night

01:15:14night and he didn't have tabs on you, you know what I mean? It's like it, it's so quick that

01:15:19it

01:15:20flips. Cause like I said to you earlier, like, oh, so you weren't going to work. Like you can look

01:15:25like you're living a very normal life. It's just inside of you, you have these guardrails that you

01:15:30know that you can't go outside of. And it's really fucking difficult to get away from that because

01:15:35you become conditioned. Yeah. Yeah. You think that you're, you think that you're not alone,

01:15:42but the more you, but your gut is telling you, you feel like you're completely isolated.

01:15:48Can you share with us? And I know we talked about this earlier, but coming back to like

01:15:52the process of leaving and untangling your life from these people in this cult, like what was that

01:15:59experience like? Cause again, we talked about how it's terrifying. And then what was your experience?

01:16:04It was terrifying. It was my only friends. So I thought suddenly turned on me and they were

01:16:16showing up at my house to, you know, for custody exchanges, like trying to intimidate me and, and

01:16:22like flanking my ex on either side, like goons just ready to watch me or ready to, you know,

01:16:30film, film me doing like to have your best friends who you've shared your most vulnerable,

01:16:35intimate secrets with suddenly turn around and like overnight, just that's it. You're, you're,

01:16:42if you're not with us, you're against us. If you're not part of us, you're the enemy.

01:16:48And to be treated like an enemy is, is from someone who, who you've been very, very close with

01:16:54all of a sudden no conversation. No, there just was no willingness to see because the stakes are

01:17:01so high for them too. You know, like it's understandable objectively, but you go into

01:17:09this custody battle and you write about something I thought was really interesting about. Can you talk

01:17:13to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you explaining this cult experience

01:17:21to them? This is, this is one of the most frustrating things about all of it. Um, because I, I

01:17:27began to

01:17:28realize how broken the family court system is in this country. The saying is no bruise, no case. If you

01:17:37don't have a physical altercation with someone, they don't consider it abuse in the court because

01:17:45how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse? I mean,

01:17:57that's, that's the hardest one too, because the courts are like, I don't want to touch anything

01:18:01religious church and state. Like, no. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Airbnb. Okay. Here in LA,

01:18:09it's sunny. It's 75 degrees. And honestly, winter doesn't really exist, which is great. But it also

01:18:18made me realize how much I missed, you know, bundling up and being out in the snow and wearing

01:18:22the coats that I've bought. Right. So now every year I make it a point for an annual ski trip

01:18:27with

01:18:28my girls. For our last trip, we booked a stay on Airbnb and it honestly set the tone for the

01:18:34entire

01:18:34weekend. We found the coziest cabin right next to the mountain. So getting out the door in the

01:18:39mornings was easy, even with all of our gear on. And when we would come back from skiing,

01:18:44we felt right at home. We had space to kind of spread out, be comfy. We had these couches to

01:18:49crash

01:18:49on, a fireplace where we would sit around with hot cocoa, recapping the day, doing our favorite thing

01:18:56to do, gossip and girl talk and do all the good things. So when it's that cold outside, also having

01:19:01a

01:19:01place that feels warm and comfortable to come back to, it really does make all the difference.

01:19:06And that is why as I plan my next ski trip, booking a stay on Airbnb is a no brainer

01:19:12for me. Instead of

01:19:14feeling like a tourist, you can settle in and explore the neighborhood, grab groceries nearby and

01:19:19really live like a local wherever you go. And if you know you want to take a trip, but you

01:19:25don't know

01:19:26where yet, don't worry. Airbnb makes that part easy, too. I love the guest favorites. I am constantly

01:19:34browsing it. Even if I don't have a trip, I'm like, you know what? I'm going on guest favorites.

01:19:37It's basically a collection of the most loved homes on Airbnb, and it's such a good way to get

01:19:42you inspired for your next trip. Stop fantasizing about your dream trip and start planning it on Airbnb.

01:19:49I want to ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the like exploitiveness of

01:19:57this dynamic and the abuse of like, through the custody battle, you write about how you had to spend

01:20:02so much money in court, like around the number. Can you share like how much these people took from

01:20:10you financially? Well, when I was in the group, they took $2 million from me. When I got out,

01:20:18I had about $250,000 left, which is not nothing. I mean, that's a significant amount of money.

01:20:28But the court costs in total were about $350,000, $350,000. So I left the group with money in

01:20:39the

01:20:39bank that was already committed to other things, like my mortgage, which I ended up having to do a

01:20:48short sale on, like, like the IRS, like, so many unpaid bills. And there were lawsuits I didn't know

01:20:58about that I had to, I mean, it was absolute financial abuse. It was just a total mess.

01:21:06So everything you basically made from One Tree Hill just gone.

01:21:10And another relatable thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships is the

01:21:16financial tie that they're like, I can't leave because what am I going to do? Who's going to pay

01:21:22for my kids? Who's going to pay for the groceries? A lot of them don't have a skill because they've

01:21:26been in a controlled environment for so long. So they're like, I can't, what kind of job am I going

01:21:31to get? The guy controls all the money. And I, I was going to say my advice would be get

01:21:43out anyway,

01:21:43and just trust that it's going to be okay. But that's a really cheap thing to say, because

01:21:48I'm not, I don't know every single person's situation. But I hate, I guess the heart behind

01:21:54what I am meaning is that I hate for any woman, anyone to be stuck in a situation because of

01:22:04finances. And, um, I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month's rent

01:22:11is coming from. And, um, I learned a lot in that time. I grew a lot and it did, God

01:22:20did always show

01:22:21up for me. Like something always worked out every month. Um, so I can't, you know, like I,

01:22:27I'm not here to give advice, but I can tell what happened for me. But I, and I appreciate the

01:22:31sentiment of it is like leaving something bad. Like you will find something that I believe in

01:22:37the world, like you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like

01:22:41that. As we're kind of like finishing this conversation, I feel like obviously I want

01:22:46everyone to go read your book and, and there's so much in it that is so even more detailing of

01:22:53like

01:22:53how someone can get into the situation because I am so understanding that at face value, someone can

01:23:00roll their eyes and be like, what do you mean you were in a cult? Like you asked for this,

01:23:05like again,

01:23:06and that's why someone needs to listen to this episode. And then they'll be like, okay, wait,

01:23:08nevermind. That's fucking crazy. Um, but can you share like, what do you think the biggest

01:23:15misconception people have about cults is? It's the same misconception I had, which is why I didn't

01:23:22think I was in one because I was like, no, cults are crazy people and they all live together in

01:23:27some

01:23:27weird big house and they all wear the same thing. And they're, they're all, um, sleeping with the

01:23:33leader and they're all, you know, he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're

01:23:39doing all kinds of crazy shit and drinking weird things and they don't interact with the rest of

01:23:43the world. Like it's everything that you think of from a 1970s flower child, you know, yes,

01:23:50bizarro worlds cults. Uh, and we've, we've come a long way because, uh, there is no real

01:23:59definition of a cult. You can't even use it in court. The word cults. It's not a viable. You

01:24:04have to say high demand group. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. There's no, there's no legal

01:24:09definition of cults. Like Catholicism, I guess, is a cult Christianity, Buddhism, uh, soul cycle.

01:24:16Like I said before, like I love soul cycle, by the way, I know, I'm just saying, I know some

01:24:20people

01:24:20get real hyped on it. So there's no, there's no definition. So it's, it's like, we've used it as

01:24:29this slang for things that are super weird. That is so helpful because I agree. I think people

01:24:36picture like cloaks and like, yeah, this like voodoo shit. Yeah. No, it's the Illuminati and

01:24:42all these things. Yeah. But you're on set of one tree Hill. We're all watching you and it's all going

01:24:46down. Like it is just, you can get into a situation that you don't even know what it is

01:24:51because it's presenting at first as this loving person that's wanting to just be your friend and

01:24:56help you out. Yeah. So you get out and now I'm curious, um, kind of like the aftermath of how

01:25:05has

01:25:05your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now

01:25:13ability to trust people? Brilliant question. Yeah. You hit the nail on that. I mean, it's,

01:25:21it's really difficult. I, I joke about it a lot. I'm like, I don't trust anybody, you know,

01:25:29but I don't, I was just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend. I,

01:25:34I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people.

01:25:38Yeah. That's not how we're supposed to live. I don't, I really believe that's not how we're

01:25:44supposed to live. I, I, I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the

01:25:57benefit of the doubt, but maybe not credit. If that makes sense. Like you don't, you don't get to walk

01:26:06into my life and automatically get the free credit card of like friend. Here's the friendship credit

01:26:11card. Swipe it whenever you want, do whatever you want with it. Um, but I, I will give you the

01:26:16benefit

01:26:17of the doubt if I see something weird or like every, that's been the hardest part to navigate. Alex is

01:26:23just who, who is, who's just normal and has weird baggage. Like hello, every single human. Yeah.

01:26:34When is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I, I just can't engage

01:26:40with. Yeah. When is the baggage something that triggers me, but maybe I can learn something and

01:26:47maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through. Yeah. I don't, it's a case by case

01:26:52basis. I was going to say like, I was going to ask you, how do you learn to trust yourself

01:26:56again? But I

01:26:57feel like it's kind of the same, it's in the same vein of like, you're, you're going to learn to

01:27:03trust yourself as you're going to trust other people. And when you're feeling something that

01:27:08doesn't make you feel good about that person and you're not trusting them as much, you then have

01:27:13to turn inward and be like, is this because of my trauma? Or is this because this person is actually

01:27:17showing something that is pushing my boundaries and making me uncomfortable? And you have to be able

01:27:21to discern the two. And you're not always going to get it right. If you're not, you're just going to

01:27:25have to, at some point, let go and trust. My last question is like, what do you ultimately hope

01:27:33people take away from reading your book? Well, I hope they never join a cult.

01:27:40No, daddy gang, no cults. I just, I hope people feel like they're not alone. I've said that before.

01:27:49Like, I really, I really want people to feel like their own shame, their own mistakes are

01:28:00faceable. That there's hope and that shame, like, please don't live in shame. Don't let it keep you

01:28:08closed off and shut down and not talk about things. You have to let it out. You have to let

01:28:14it out of

01:28:14your body. This is the only way to actually find hope and move forward. So I really hope that that's

01:28:21an alleviating thing for people. It is. It's more than alleviating. It is extremely encouraging and

01:28:28hopeful. I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me. I can already feel

01:28:35just how impactful this is going to be. And I commend you for writing this book. I think it's like,

01:28:42so incredible of you to be able to like pen to paper, put down something that consumed your life

01:28:49for 10 years. And I think a lot of, a lot of people are going to find not only like

01:28:55comfort in it,

01:28:56but feel very connected to you. And I think you have like a very incredible story, but just you as

01:29:00a

01:29:00human being, like sitting with you, I'm like, you're a very inspiring person. And I'm so excited to see

01:29:07what you continue to do. Like, thank you for taking the time. It was literally an honor.

01:29:12Thank you, Alex. Well, I think you're inspiring too. I really, I really do. I think you're so smart

01:29:16and so interesting. And I love the way that you just, that you just embrace life and run, kind of

01:29:21run

01:29:21freely, like open. Your openness is really, really engaging and inviting. And, and I want more of it in

01:29:28my life. So I'm, I'm really grateful. I got to spend some time with you today.

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