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00:06The search for James continues tonight, but with 24 hours now passed since the child disappeared, there is growing concern.
00:14The search for two-year-old James at first light.
00:17They'd concentrated on the area around an underground reservoir, but gradually widened the hunt to check local railway lines.
00:27Friday, February the 12th, 1993.
00:31A two-year-old toddler goes missing from a shopping centre in Liverpool.
00:36His mother, Denise Bulger, made a tearful appeal for the boy's return.
00:41If you've got me, baby, just come back.
00:45But James was already dead.
00:48His mutilated body was found two days later on the railway line.
00:53All I will say to you is that the injuries are absolutely horrific, and at some stage since Friday, unfortunately,
01:01he'd been in contact with a train.
01:06For the first time, Albert Kirby, the officer charged with hunting James' killers, gives an insider's view of the crime.
01:15What he discovered about the murderers has challenged his beliefs and changed his life forever.
01:39When James Bulger's murderers turned out to be ten-year-old schoolboys, anger and sadness gripped Merseyside.
01:48It was a tragedy that would have a dramatic effect on the lives of everyone involved.
01:55The case had started simply as a missing child inquiry on the Friday afternoon.
02:04A phone call came into the incident room at Marshall Lane Police Station to tell us that the body of
02:10a child had just been found.
02:12It was just after three o'clock on the Sunday afternoon, up on the railway lines at the back of
02:16the police station.
02:17So we, even then, were feeling quite certain that this is going to be James' body that's been found.
02:24And as soon as Denise saw us, she must have read in our faces, or saw something that happened.
02:32And she just went hysterical and screamed out, and she was absolutely unconsolable.
02:38So you feel totally inadequate.
02:41I think it's the only way you can actually describe it, that you feel inadequate.
02:45You can't do anything for them.
02:50I hate coming past here.
02:52And if there's another way around, I generally do it, because I just do not like coming along here.
02:58Because, like now, we're just approaching here, the railway bridge, and I know, in minute detail, what happened on the
03:05right,
03:06and then climbed up onto the embankment, and then what happened on the top.
03:16I can never really say this is a place I particularly wanted to come back to again.
03:22And certainly I'm coming back here on such a horrible, wet, miserable day as today is.
03:33It's shivery, to be quite honest.
03:35It's just, you know, when you come back up here, and you look at the cemetery over there.
03:41But, er, no.
03:43It's quite sad, isn't it, to come up here and see this.
03:47No, quite sad.
03:55I think it's probably somewhere up here on the right-hand side.
03:59Yes, here we are.
04:01Look at that.
04:02After all this time, even the markings that the scenes of crime officers made as to where the blood was
04:10splattered up on the wall are still there.
04:13So you can see the severity of actually the way in which the poor little mite was attacked.
04:19Very sad to see that.
04:22This is then where James died, isn't it?
04:24Yeah.
04:25Yeah.
04:26In that one spot there.
04:40And you're somewhere up here now, on this other side of the line here, right at the back of a
04:46police station.
04:46just somewhere in this area here
04:48where we're standing now, where we're looking here now
04:51that's where his body had been put
04:53and it had been put over the railway line
04:56and his body laid there
04:58until morning when the first train came along this track
05:02and actually severed his body in two
05:04and took the bottom part of the body
05:07just that bit further up the railway line
05:09and again, you know, I sat here
05:11and actually drew it as we went through
05:14where his trousers were, where his shoes were
05:17and where his body was
05:18just that little bit further up the track there
05:23His clothes were all scattered around here
05:27His little shoes were down here
05:29His underpants were here
05:31His trousers were here
05:32Right there where his body was
05:34It was what the railway people would call a fish plate
05:38which is a long iron bar
05:40about 28 inches long
05:42and weighs about 28 pounds
05:45and again, we knew that that had been used in some way
05:48that you're on James's skull
05:51What did you think when you first saw it?
05:54It was just so ghastly, you know, to see it
05:57Were you shocked?
05:58Yeah, we were shocked
05:59We were all shocked
06:13Doing postmortems on children can be upsetting
06:16particularly if you've got a young family
06:18At that time I had a child
06:20who was only slightly older than James
06:22One goes home and sees him
06:25and you think back to what had happened to James
06:28and, you know, like all parents
06:31you pray it's never going to happen to one of your children
06:35James had a large number of injuries
06:38as a result of being struck
06:41by what we interpreted as being bricks
06:44and possibly an iron bar
06:49He had bruising above his eyes
06:53He had some split wounds
06:54going across the forehead
06:56and the bridge of the nose
06:58There's big bruises on the back of the head
07:02and then the brain was injured
07:04as a result of the blows to the head
07:07Obviously an important fact
07:08was that I was of the opinion
07:09that the death had occurred
07:10before he'd been put on the track
07:12rather than as a result of the train going over him
07:20I think when I first saw it
07:22my thoughts were
07:23even up until that stage
07:25that it's some grown-up who's done this
07:27probably somebody like a paedophile
07:29who'd found the little boy
07:31and brought him up here
07:33You know, because you've got to ask the questions
07:35why was he to have no clothes on
07:36from his waist downwards
07:37why had he been stripped
07:38his shoes, sops, underpants
07:39everything's taken off
07:40So it gave the indication more
07:43that it was somebody
07:44who, perhaps even for some sexual perversion
07:47had brought him up here
07:49and done that to him
07:53When you look around here
07:54you can see the houses
07:56and we knew that some journalists
07:59were trying to get into these properties
08:00and there was no way
08:02I was going to allow any journalist
08:04to take photographs
08:05of a young child's body
08:09that once the tents were in place
08:11over the scene
08:11then I knew that no one could pry
08:16I was frightened
08:17that somebody would have had a photograph
08:19and can you imagine
08:20if Mrs. Baldry
08:21or members of their family
08:23had picked up
08:23and seen that the next day
08:25it would have been
08:26absolutely devastating for them
08:36All people see is James in a picture
08:39they didn't see him play around
08:41or talk or laugh
08:43or anything like that
08:44all he is to other people
08:46is just a picture
08:47but to me he's not
08:50he'll always be a person to me
08:52and I'd love to see
08:53what he'd look like today
08:59I can see James
09:00and the three of my sons
09:03the way he talks
09:04the way he looks
09:05is there
09:05it's just everything about him
09:08I just
09:10try and remember James
09:11the way he was
09:12and not the way he was taken
09:15and I think that's
09:15what's getting me
09:16through the days really
09:18I just try and
09:19blank it out
09:21and plus I've got
09:22my other three kids now
09:23to keep my mind occupied
09:27As soon as Denise
09:29reported James missing
09:30on the Friday afternoon
09:31Merseyside police
09:33launched a massive search
09:37but as they began
09:38to comb the area
09:39near to the strand
09:40James lay dying
09:42on the railway line
09:45As the night started Jordan in
09:47I knew that the chances
09:48were getting slimmer and slimmer
09:51it was the longest weekend
09:52I've ever had in my life
09:56I think I just collapsed
09:57to the floor
09:57I can't remember much
09:58after that
10:00I don't remember
10:01the rest of that day long
10:03I just
10:05sat in my room for weeks
10:06and
10:07I didn't know really
10:08what was going on
10:09outside
10:10I was kept away
10:11from telly
10:12radios
10:12everything
10:14no one had told me anything
10:16not that it was a great
10:17interest in me anyway
10:20just
10:20I thought I've lost
10:21everything anyway
10:22so I don't care
10:23what happens now
10:37I suppose I accept now
10:40that
10:41what happened to poor James
10:43will probably never go away
10:45and will never leave me
10:46it's something that I've probably learnt
10:48over the years
10:49that I have to live with
10:51did you cry?
10:52I did
10:53I made no bones about it
10:55you know
10:56there were times
10:57when it
10:58it really got to me
11:00you know
11:01perhaps I'm a coal fish
11:02and I do tend
11:04on occasions
11:04to keep my feelings
11:05to myself
11:06but
11:07on that occasion
11:09I couldn't help it
11:12when you got home
11:13that night
11:14what did you say to Sue?
11:17well
11:17one thing I never really do
11:18with Sue
11:19over all the years
11:20is actually discuss
11:21the details
11:22of what I've seen
11:24you know
11:24I tend to use
11:25quite glib words
11:26to her
11:27because I don't think
11:29it's right
11:29that she should
11:30have to relive it
11:31with you
11:33isn't that quite lonely?
11:34I suppose it is lonely
11:36really
11:36but
11:37I think
11:38if I look at my background
11:40it's something
11:41that I've been used to
11:42having to
11:44deal with
11:45and with issues
11:45by myself
11:51all Albert
11:52told me
11:52really
11:53was that
11:53the little boy
11:54had been found
11:57so I knew
11:57something awful
11:58had happened
11:59to James
11:59but
12:01otherwise
12:02no
12:04I think there'll
12:04always be details
12:05that Albert
12:06will keep to himself
12:06but nobody will know
12:07perhaps even the boys
12:09won't remember them
12:15I think there was a lot
12:16of feeling
12:17for this little boy
12:19that such an awful
12:21thing should happen
12:22and it should happen
12:23in a busy area
12:24this wasn't where
12:26he'd run away
12:27and fallen in water
12:28or been enticed
12:29to be some else
12:30this was in a busy
12:31precinct
12:32which I used
12:33when Ian was little
12:33because it was safe
12:36the Strand
12:37shopping centre
12:38in Bootle
12:39provided the first
12:40chilling evidence
12:41of what had happened
12:42to James
12:44police uncovered
12:45CCTV pictures
12:47of James
12:47playing outside
12:48the butcher's shop
12:59while Denise
13:00searched frantically
13:01in one part
13:02of the Strand
13:03the cameras
13:04picked up James
13:05and two other boys
13:06walking in the
13:07opposite direction
13:09James hadn't
13:09wandered away
13:13he'd been taken
13:16I knew it was
13:17James
13:17she said
13:17I
13:19was Albert
13:19that
13:20took me back
13:21up to the Strand
13:22and he
13:22he was showing me
13:23the first trip
13:24and being led to
13:24I
13:25he asked if
13:26that was my son
13:26I said
13:27yeah it was
13:27definitely him
13:28and then Albert
13:29knew then
13:29it was two young
13:30boys that had
13:30had him
13:38it wasn't minutes
13:39it was just seconds
13:42I needed to get
13:43my purse
13:43out my bag
13:45so quick it
13:46happened
13:48I just thought
13:48he'd be outside
13:49wondering around
13:50I didn't
13:51in a million years
13:51imagine that
13:53he'd gone off
13:53with two
13:54mares
14:00these are the last
14:01clear images of
14:02James
14:03before his death
14:08as soon as I saw
14:09the video footage
14:10I realised that
14:11this was going to
14:12be a massive story
14:13because for the
14:14very first time
14:15we'd seen a murder
14:17live on TV
14:18not the actual
14:19killing
14:20but the fact that
14:22the victim
14:23was being led away
14:24and it was obvious
14:25what was going to
14:25happen
14:26because we all
14:27knew the results
14:28the result was
14:29already out
14:30and that was
14:31what made it
14:32such an impact
14:32it was almost
14:33it's a terrible
14:34thing to say
14:35but it was almost
14:35like a made
14:36for TV murder
14:39poor James
14:40only went missing
14:40from his mother
14:41for a matter of
14:42seconds
14:42and he'd gone
14:43and disappeared
14:44until this person
14:46is caught
14:46that the parents
14:48must
14:48and I stress this
14:50must keep hold
14:51of their children
14:52the demands
14:53from the news desk
14:55were that we
14:56get involved
14:57and get up to our
14:58necks in it
14:58and quite rightly
15:00because the public
15:01reaction was so
15:03big that we wanted
15:05to reflect that
15:05and reflect how
15:06savage the murder
15:07was
15:08all I will say to you
15:09is that the injuries
15:10are absolutely
15:11horrific
15:12at some stage
15:13since Friday
15:14up until the
15:15discovery yesterday
15:16he'd been in contact
15:17with a train
15:18the atmosphere
15:19was intense
15:20even at the press
15:22conference
15:22and Albert
15:24almost broke down
15:26I mean he didn't
15:27because of course
15:27he's a well-trained
15:28policeman
15:29but he could see
15:30he was on the edge
15:31of breaking down
15:32all I will say
15:33it's horrific
15:34and it caused
15:35both of us
15:36a great deal
15:37of emotional
15:37upset last night
15:51detectives believe
15:52they're now building
15:53up a better picture
15:54of the abduction
15:55which led to the
15:55killing of James Bulger
15:57security cameras
15:58of a construction
15:59company overlook
16:00a road
16:00half a mile
16:01from where James
16:02was taken
16:02from the Strand
16:03shopping centre
16:04in Bootle
16:04last Friday
16:06they had a security
16:07system
16:08that looked
16:09down here
16:10and towards
16:11this roundabout
16:12you could see
16:13the very grainy
16:15distorted pictures
16:16of two young boys
16:18together with
16:19another little boy
16:20between them
16:20walking up here
16:22and by this wall
16:23and when I came up here
16:24really it was then
16:26that I was
16:27absolutely shocked
16:28because I stood here
16:29by the wall
16:29you could see
16:30where the wall
16:31now comes
16:32against the back
16:32of my leg
16:33whereas on the two
16:34boys it was way
16:36up their body
16:36and I then started
16:38to realise
16:39just how small
16:40they were
16:41and how young
16:42obviously
16:42they were going
16:43to be
16:47I suppose really
16:48it was something
16:49that you're actually
16:49fighting against
16:50all the time
16:51thinking that the
16:52two boys
16:53that we knew
16:53had been in the
16:54precinct
16:54the two boys
16:56that had taken
16:56James away
16:57were at some
16:58time going
16:58to have abandoned
16:59him
17:00and for him
17:00to have been
17:01picked up
17:02by an older
17:03person
17:03but here
17:04I think we had
17:05to accept
17:06then
17:06that in all
17:07probability
17:08the boys
17:09that took him
17:09were going to be
17:10the same two boys
17:11that caused
17:12his death
17:12later on
17:15more than 60
17:16young boys
17:17were brought
17:18in for questioning
17:19many were known
17:20to have played
17:20truant on the
17:21day of the
17:22murder
17:23unknown to
17:24Albert Kirby
17:24some of the
17:25press were
17:26following his
17:27officers in the
17:28hope of being
17:28first to report
17:29an arrest
17:30the father
17:31of a young boy
17:32who lives in
17:33this street
17:33contacted us
17:34and said that
17:35he'd seen his
17:35son in the
17:36shopping precinct
17:37on the day
17:38that James
17:39actually went
17:39missing
17:40his mother
17:41was aware
17:42that their son
17:43had actually
17:44committed the
17:45murder
17:45that when he
17:47got home
17:47his clothing
17:48was dirty
17:49and the clothing
17:50had been taken
17:51to his grandmother
17:51to be washed
17:52so he wove
17:53this very
17:54tight story
17:56which sounded
17:56very convincing
17:57about how his
17:58own son
17:59was responsible
18:00for the murder
18:01and that he
18:02wanted to give
18:02the information
18:03to the police
18:03about it
18:04from the shopping
18:05centre
18:05where little
18:06James
18:06disappeared
18:07there were
18:07anxious glances
18:08from inside
18:09as a crowd
18:10gathered
18:10and the moot
18:11turned angry
18:12as police
18:12took one
18:13youngster
18:13away for
18:14questioning
18:14the street
18:15was just
18:15full of people
18:16and they were
18:16all called
18:17maids
18:17it was
18:18everything
18:21people in this
18:22street had
18:22gathered around
18:23the house
18:23here
18:24and they were
18:25out really
18:26for revenge
18:27they were out
18:27for blood
18:28really
18:28and it could
18:29have been
18:29absolutely
18:31fatal
18:31with the feelings
18:33of the crowd
18:33around here
18:34and all around
18:35Liverpool
18:36as police
18:37tried to keep
18:37the situation
18:38calm
18:38just murderers
18:40and everything
18:41bastards
18:42and all
18:43but our men
18:44saying that
18:44they were
18:45going to
18:45kill him
18:46today
18:47some of the
18:47relatives
18:47of the
18:48Bolger family
18:48were among
18:49the first
18:49to appeal
18:50for calm
18:51us the
18:51family
18:52we're just
18:53as enraged
18:53as they are
18:55and we just
18:56don't want
18:56the wrong
18:57people to be
18:57brought in
18:58and charged
19:00with this
19:01it's got to
19:02be the right
19:03people
19:03and it's
19:03going to
19:03take time
19:05we're
19:05very quickly
19:06eliminating
19:07from the
19:07inquiry
19:08but surprisingly
19:09enough
19:10once people
19:11get an idea
19:12in their mind
19:12it's very
19:13difficult to
19:14actually remove
19:15it
19:15so the poor
19:16family from here
19:17that were involved
19:17in that
19:18they had to be
19:19rehoused
19:19and moved
19:20elsewhere
19:21I feel very
19:22sorry for them
19:23because it was
19:23total unnecessary
19:25what mistakes
19:26had you made
19:26do you think
19:27I think the
19:28mistake we made
19:29really was
19:30underestimating
19:31the fervour
19:32of the media
19:33to follow the
19:35conduct of the
19:35inquiry
19:36I think what
19:37you've got to
19:37do is ensure
19:38that the press
19:39are a little bit
19:40more on board
19:41with you
19:41than we thought
19:42they were
19:45this afternoon
19:46the Merseyside
19:47police authority
19:47discussed the
19:48impact
19:48that the
19:49murder
19:49hunters
19:49having on
19:50the local
19:50community
19:51the chief
19:52constable
19:52James
19:52Sharples
19:53reported that
19:54more than
19:54135
19:55youths
19:56have been
19:56interviewed
19:56we will be
19:57interviewing
19:58many more
19:59juveniles
19:59what we can't
20:01have
20:01is crowds
20:03attending the
20:03premises
20:04and perhaps
20:05behaving in
20:06an intimidating
20:06manner
20:07towards family
20:08and of course
20:09to the juvenile
20:09concern
20:10did it put
20:12extra pressure
20:12on you
20:13it did
20:14it did put
20:14an awful lot
20:15of extra
20:15pressure on us
20:17because we knew
20:18what we were
20:18trying to do
20:19what we were
20:19trying to achieve
20:20and to get
20:21sidetracked
20:21for something
20:22which was
20:23totally irrelevant
20:25really
20:25it puts
20:26increasing
20:26pressure on you
20:35I lost a lot
20:36of sleep
20:37sometimes
20:37I would just
20:38go into a cold
20:39sweat and think
20:40what did we go
20:41through
20:41what did we live
20:42through
20:42how do we
20:43come out
20:43of this
20:44at the other
20:44end
20:44it does
20:45haunt you
20:46then
20:55tonight we
20:56start with
20:56new details
20:57that have just
20:58become available
20:58on the case
20:59that's been
21:00uppermost in
21:00all our minds
21:01this week
21:02and we'll start
21:03with that security
21:03video picture
21:04the ministry of
21:05defence has
21:06employed the
21:06same enhancement
21:07techniques that
21:08were used
21:08during the gulf war
21:09this boy is
21:10now fairly
21:11recognisable
21:12he's four foot
21:13nine inches
21:13he has a
21:14roundish face
21:15with a small
21:15nose and short
21:16hair
21:17it's been widely
21:18assumed these two
21:19are responsible for
21:20the little boy's
21:20death
21:21but of course we
21:22must keep in mind
21:23the possibility that
21:24they were trying to
21:24help him
21:26if you recognise
21:27them
21:27please call us
21:30a lady came in
21:31and said that
21:32she'd seen one of
21:33the appeals that
21:33I'd put out on
21:34the television
21:34and she thought
21:35they look remarkably
21:36like Thompson
21:37and Venables
21:38and I know that
21:39they're always
21:40absconding from
21:40school
21:42the police moved
21:44in to arrest
21:44ten year old
21:45Robert Thompson
21:46and John Venables
21:48we didn't want
21:49that repeat of
21:50what happened
21:51at Snowdrop Street
21:52we were a little
21:53bit more careful
21:54in the way that
21:55we dealt with it
21:56even neighbours
21:57weren't aware
21:58that we'd been
21:58into their houses
21:59and brought them
22:00away
22:01it was Robert
22:02Thompson that
22:03was brought here
22:04because he doesn't
22:05live that far away
22:05from here
22:06and just at the
22:07back of the cells
22:08there behind me
22:08is what we would
22:10call the juvenile
22:11detention room
22:12where they were
22:13detained
22:15first impressions
22:15of Robert
22:16were largely
22:17related to
22:18just his size
22:20and how young
22:21he was
22:22he stood out
22:24in those
22:24circumstances
22:25in that
22:25environment
22:26a young lad
22:27of ten years
22:27of age
22:28just seems
22:28entirely alien
22:30Robert Thompson
22:31was the first
22:32to be interviewed
22:32by the police
22:34I knew very well
22:35I couldn't shout
22:36at him
22:37or raise my voice
22:38I'd be too
22:39difficult with
22:39the questions
22:40because he was
22:41quite astute
22:42for that
22:42he wanted to
22:43argue back
22:44against me
22:44if I gave him
22:46a difficult question
22:46so I had a
22:47worded
22:48sort of
22:51patronising
22:51like
22:54you know
22:54these video
22:55films
22:55I went too
22:56fast for you
22:56right
22:58you know
22:58these videos
22:59these video
22:59cameras
23:00they look down
23:02to the ceiling
23:02correct
23:03and they look
23:04down
23:04on everything
23:05that goes
23:05on in the
23:06strand
23:06don't they
23:07are you shaking
23:08your head
23:08see
23:08yeah
23:10I know
23:11the truth
23:12I believe
23:13I know
23:14the truth
23:14I was there
23:15that's right
23:16you wait
23:16correct
23:17but I know
23:18a lot of things
23:18have gone on
23:19yeah
23:20well do you know
23:20it was me
23:21that killed him
23:21it wasn't
23:24I never even
23:25killed him
23:32you could easily
23:33establish
23:34Thompson line
23:36because when
23:36he gave him
23:37a sort of
23:37a difficult
23:38question
23:39his legs
23:40would sort of
23:41start kicking
23:41underneath the chair
23:43especially when
23:44he lied
23:45and you think
23:45I know
23:46this is a
23:47sensitive question
23:48so I sort of
23:49went down
23:50that sort of
23:51line
23:52and focused
23:53every time
23:54but once I saw
23:55those legs
23:55kicking
23:55I thought
23:56oh
23:58the things
23:59that
24:00I believe
24:03that
24:04you did
24:05with John
24:08and until
24:09you tell me
24:10the whole truth
24:13I can't believe
24:14you
24:15as the interviews
24:16went on
24:18he made
24:19admissions of
24:19having been
24:20closer and
24:20closer and
24:21closer to the
24:21events of that
24:22day
24:22always denying
24:23taking any part
24:24in them
24:24but moving
24:25from a denial
24:26of any involvement
24:27or any knowledge
24:28of them
24:28whatsoever
24:28to having seen
24:30and having been
24:31near to
24:31certain events
24:32why did I take
24:34flowers over
24:35to the baby
24:35and all the other
24:37stories
24:37I don't know
24:37it's up to you
24:38if I killed them
24:39well you were there
24:40why did you take
24:40flowers
24:42you knew
24:42you knew
24:43who did it
24:44didn't you
24:44yeah
24:45who
24:45John
24:47because John
24:47hit him in the face
24:50I believe
24:51I knew
24:52Thompson better
24:53than his mother
24:54he played a role
24:56of a perfect son
24:57by the second day
24:59of course
24:59I believe
25:01she had a nervous
25:01breakdown
25:04her reaction
25:05or her action
25:06was such
25:07of a person
25:09that just
25:09couldn't handle
25:10the situation
25:11couldn't believe
25:12that she'd
25:14brought somebody
25:15into a world
25:15that would
25:16kill
25:17a two-year-old boy
25:21a few miles away
25:23Lower Lane
25:23police station
25:24was emptied
25:25when Robert's
25:26school friend
25:26John Venables
25:27was brought in
25:28for questioning
25:33no I never
25:34went to
25:34a little strand
25:35ok
25:36now is that
25:37the truth
25:38or a lie
25:38the truth
25:41but you do
25:42understand
25:42the importance
25:42of telling
25:43the truth
25:43don't you
25:45yeah
25:46well I couldn't
25:47believe when I
25:48first saw John
25:48that he could
25:49possibly be
25:50responsible for
25:51anything heinous
25:52there was this
25:53little boy
25:55supposedly ten years
25:56old
25:56more like an
25:56eight-year-old
25:58angelic little
25:58face
25:59very polite
26:00very respectful
26:02clearly from a
26:03respectable background
26:04his mum was
26:05there
26:05very nice lady
26:07and I just thought
26:08it was another
26:09truanter
26:10there's no point
26:11in telling lies
26:25we had a break
26:27and the police
26:28also wanted
26:29an interval
26:30so they could
26:32debrief the other
26:33interview that was
26:34going on with
26:34Thompson at another
26:36police station
26:37and we reconvened
26:39about two hours
26:39later
26:41and it was then
26:42that it was clear
26:43that the two stories
26:44weren't matching
26:45and it was put to
26:46John that Thompson
26:48had admitted being
26:49in the strand
26:49which is something
26:50that John had
26:50denied right the way
26:52through the interview
26:53and it was at that
26:54point that John
26:54said no he's lying
26:56it's not true
26:57then there was silence
26:58and then suddenly
26:59he said yes we were
27:01at the strand
27:01but honestly we never
27:02grabbed a kid mum
27:03never killed anybody
27:05well yeah we was
27:07but we never saw
27:08any kids there
27:08we never grabbed
27:10any kids
27:11so you were in
27:12Bootle Newstrand
27:13was you in
27:13Bootle Strand
27:14we never got a kid mum
27:16we never
27:17we never got a kid
27:19I must ask you
27:21that to get angry
27:21with it
27:23there was a lot
27:23of crying
27:24and a lot
27:24of wailing
27:26and a lot
27:27of hugging
27:27he was a very
27:28tactile boy
27:29and as each
27:31little bit of truth
27:32came out
27:34he'd get out of his chair
27:35and he'd hug his mum
27:36and he'd hug the police
27:37officers
27:38and he'd cry
27:38it was a very
27:39emotional time
27:40did he
27:43grab hold of James
27:44I don't know
27:46you don't know
27:47he might have made them
27:48fall along behind us
27:50did he
27:52and then got him
27:53lost somewhere
27:55what were you with him
27:56then
27:57when
27:57with John
27:59when that happened
28:00no
28:03Robert Thompson
28:03Robert Thompson
28:04always apportioned
28:05the blame
28:07on John Venables
28:08never the instigator
28:10in taking him away
28:11never the instigator
28:12in taking him to the canal
28:14always blamed him
28:15on John Venables
28:16and that's how he went
28:17all through his interviews
28:19some of the most
28:20damning evidence
28:21came from the boys clothing
28:25the search teams
28:27recovered the clothing
28:28that Thompson was wearing
28:29at the time
28:30which is as shown
28:31on the slide now
28:32the most relevant part
28:34of the evidence
28:35with regard to
28:36Thompson
28:37came from his shoes
28:39and you can see
28:40on the shoes
28:41where he's got these
28:42little rings
28:43and the laces
28:44that come in
28:47when James' face
28:48was cleaned up
28:50you could see
28:51clear marks
28:52on his skin
28:53on his face
28:54and I went up
28:56to the forensic science
28:57laboratory
28:57to examine them
28:58we couldn't understand
28:59what had caused them
29:00a scientist
29:02came into the laboratory
29:03from another area
29:04and he was invited
29:06to look at it
29:07and he immediately said
29:08yes
29:08I can tell you
29:09what that is
29:10he said
29:10what's happened there
29:11is he said
29:12that poor little boy
29:13has been kicked
29:13in the face
29:14and not only kicked
29:15he's been kicked
29:16with some force
29:17and those lines
29:19on James' face
29:20those circular lines
29:22have in fact
29:23been caused
29:23by the outside
29:26right edge
29:27of Thompson's shoe
29:28yeah but you're saying
29:30that I've got blood
29:32and you think
29:33it's off
29:34James
29:35correct
29:35yeah but you think
29:37it's not the truth
29:43what was happening
29:44in John Venerable's case
29:45is the two detectives
29:47found out
29:48that John's mother
29:50when he broke down
29:51and when he was crying
29:52she was there
29:53composing him
29:55and then he'd get
29:56his own confidence back
29:57and then not admit as much
30:00now when this was pointed out
30:01to the mother
30:02the mother
30:03and I think it's tremendously bold
30:04on her part
30:05said well I want
30:06the boy to tell you the truth
30:08I want my son to tell you
30:09exactly what had taken place
30:11so she in fact
30:12got her husband to sit in
30:13because he wouldn't give
30:15that same type of comfort
30:17that she was doing
30:18but the touching thing
30:19really that happened
30:21was when she told John
30:22what she was going to do
30:23which was outside
30:25the interview room initially
30:27he just turned round
30:28she said to him
30:29you know
30:30you've got to tell the truth
30:31you've got to tell the officers
30:33what's happened
30:33and she said
30:34never forget
30:35she said
30:36that irrespective of what you've done
30:38she said
30:39me and your father
30:41will always support you
30:42and will always love you
30:43and with that
30:44you know
30:45he started crying
30:46he broke down
30:47and he said
30:48yes I did kill James
30:49and will you tell his mummy
30:50how sorry I am
30:52a short while ago
30:54as is detailed
30:56on your custody record
30:57out there
30:58you had a conversation
30:59with your mum
31:02and you then
31:03requested
31:04that myself
31:06and Dave Tanner
31:07come into the room
31:09is that right?
31:11yeah
31:11and what was it you told us?
31:14that I couldn't remember James
31:19right
31:20now
31:21I know that took a lot of doing
31:24and you were very upset
31:25as we all were
31:27were you shocked?
31:29no I was shocked
31:30very shocked
31:31because
31:31you know
31:32I'm a father
31:34I've got nephews and nieces
31:35you know
31:36who are
31:37in the not too distant past
31:39being that age
31:40and you try to relate
31:41to them
31:42and their behaviour
31:43and what had happened here
31:44and it was very hard
31:45to make that comparison
31:46between the two
31:48it would be many years
31:50before Robert Thompson
31:51admitted his part
31:52in the murder
31:53but John's confessions
31:55allowed the police
31:56to plot the boy's journey
31:57from the time
31:58James was taken
32:00where did you
32:01find James?
32:03outside the butchers
32:07so we walked up to him
32:09and we were walking around
32:10with him
32:10and I took his hand
32:12I lose idea
32:13was it
32:14to walk towards him
32:16mine
32:16was it
32:17what did you see?
32:18then it was Robert's idea
32:19to kill him
32:28and we went outside
32:29to take her now
32:31what for?
32:33I don't know
32:33he said
32:33let's throw him in the water
32:36he was persuading him
32:37he said
32:38kneel down
32:39and let's look at the water
32:40and all that
32:40but he wouldn't
32:42because when we wouldn't
32:43get him down
32:44Robert picked him up
32:45and threw him on the floor
32:46and that's where he got
32:47his bump on his head
32:52who took hold of him?
32:54Robbie
32:56he was dragging him
32:57along the road
32:58where the security camera was
33:02where did you go with him
33:03after that?
33:06the reservoir
33:07where that woman spotted us
33:11is young James walking
33:12with you by this time
33:13or are you still having to pull him?
33:15he was walking with us
33:17was he upset
33:18or had he made friends with you?
33:21he was so nice
33:24he said he wants us more
33:26so what
33:27what did you say to him?
33:29what did you say?
33:31you
33:31we're going to try and find us mum
33:34where did you leave him then?
33:36on the reservoir place
33:38I don't believe you
33:39would have left him there
33:40you took him away
33:41from where the reservoir is
33:44and walked down
33:44somewhere else
33:45where?
33:46going towards
33:47the police station
33:49I never killed him
33:52why had you carried on?
33:55walking away with him
33:56up to the reservoir
33:59taking him up to Walton village
34:02what were you going to
34:03why were you taking him up
34:03to Walton village?
34:05I don't know
34:06I didn't know what to do
34:08you walk along
34:09where?
34:10to the train track
34:13the boys had walked James
34:15nearly three miles
34:16from the shopping centre
34:1838 people had seen them
34:20some had even talked to them
34:22each time they were asked
34:24about James
34:24Robert Thompson
34:25and John Venables
34:27had lied
34:30I think in the latter part
34:31of the journey down here
34:33you can see where there's been
34:35so many opportunities
34:36for them to have handed James
34:38into an adult
34:39or even here
34:40to cross over the road
34:41and go to the police station
34:43hand him into the police officers
34:45and for him to be returned
34:46to his mother
34:47but no that didn't happen
34:49I think that they premeditated
34:51they knew what they were going to do
34:53and without any excuse at all
34:56they're actually showing
34:57just how evil they were
34:59on that day
35:00and how they'd intended
35:02one way or another
35:03to kill a child
35:12I didn't throw any bricks
35:13because Robbie said
35:14pick a brick up and throw
35:15and I just threw it on the floor
35:19what happened then?
35:21and then he was on the bench
35:24there was like a big metal thing
35:25that had holes in
35:27a big metal thing with holes in
35:31where did he hit him with that?
35:32in the head
35:34now which part of the head?
35:36up there
35:36on the top of the head
35:42what was Robert saying
35:43while he was doing all this?
35:44he was saying
35:44stay down
35:45he was stupid
35:46dick and all that
35:48why did he want him
35:49to stay down?
35:50I don't know
35:52he wanted him dead
35:53probably
35:54where did the stones
35:55and the bar hit him?
35:57in the head
36:02and you said
36:03the bar knocked him out?
36:04yeah
36:06onto the railway track
36:08and what happened then?
36:11you know
36:11he was just lying there
36:15to finish now
36:16because he can't speak anymore
36:30usually at the end
36:31of any major crime inquiry
36:32there's some form of celebration
36:33for a job well done
36:35this time
36:36there was never anything
36:37all people wanted to do
36:39was when we'd actually
36:40completed the inquiry
36:41we'd got the boys in custody
36:43all they ever wanted to do
36:45was to go home
36:46to their families
36:47and just forget about it
36:53a reading from the book
36:55of Revelation
36:56I John
36:57saw a new heaven
36:59and a new earth
37:00then I heard
37:02a loud voice
37:03call from the throne
37:04you see this city
37:06here God lives
37:07amongst men
37:09he will make his home
37:10amongst them
37:11they shall be his people
37:13and he will be their God
37:15his name is God with them
37:18he will wipe away
37:19all tears from their eyes
37:21there will be no more death
37:23and no more mourning
37:24or sadness
37:46do you think what happened to James
37:48raised any questions about your faith
37:53no I don't think so
37:55I don't think it did
37:58I must say it raised questions
38:00I think
38:01one of the big things
38:02that it did do
38:04was made you think
38:06if there is any justice
38:08if there is a God in this world
38:09why do blazes
38:10for something like that
38:11have to happen
38:12but that didn't last
38:14for too long
38:15and I always remember
38:16none of you remember it
38:18the Sunday after
38:20that we charged the two boys
38:22I went into church
38:23on the Sunday
38:25and it was very emotional really
38:28because Roy
38:29our vicar
38:30the first thing he said
38:31was welcome back
38:32you went to church
38:34it was nice to see you there
38:35and our friends from church
38:37meant a lot to us then
38:39because they kept me going as well
38:41because for me
38:44I was so useless
38:45all I could do
38:46was look at it
38:47the way other people were looking
38:48so all I saw about it
38:50really was
38:51on the television
38:52because he was hardly home
38:58I think
38:59that by having that faith
39:01and by going through
39:03what we did
39:03it enabled me
39:05quite easily
39:05to realise
39:07that these incidents
39:08that you've gone through
39:09over the years
39:10they're exceptional incidents
39:11they're not the norm
39:13and realising
39:14that you're dealing
39:15with the abnormal
39:16and that when you're in church
39:18and the people
39:18who I meet in church
39:20they're not subjected
39:21to what I've been subjected
39:23to over the years
39:29I don't think it's my role
39:31to forgive
39:32either of those boys
39:34what they did
39:35but I bear no hatred
39:37towards anyone
39:39irrespective of their criminal behaviour
39:49the first boy
39:50we'll talk about
39:51is Robert Thompson
39:54Thompson is one of seven boys
39:56in his family
39:57the youngest
39:59was six months old
40:00the oldest was 20 years
40:02at the time of their arrest
40:03now
40:04out of those
40:06six of the boys
40:07had the same father
40:08the father
40:09in that particular case
40:10had abandoned the family
40:13some year
40:13about three or four years
40:14before the murder
40:15took place
40:16what had happened was
40:18he'd been in prison
40:19for a long time
40:19for very serious crimes
40:21that I was involved
40:22in the investigation of
40:23and when he came out
40:24he'd just abandoned
40:25the family
40:26Mrs Thompson
40:27was left with nothing then
40:29you know
40:29to care for the family
40:30and sadly
40:31at that time
40:33she decided
40:34to take solace
40:35and drink
40:36and that really
40:37ruined her life
40:39and put an awful lot
40:40more responsibility
40:41onto the boys
40:42to look after themselves
40:43and bring themselves up
40:45now John Venables
40:47is a completely
40:47different child
40:49in so much
40:49as his background
40:50is concerned
40:52he's one of three
40:53both his brother
40:55and sister
40:57educationally subnormal
40:58but there was never
41:00anything
41:00with regard
41:01to him
41:02which indicate
41:03that his education
41:04was lacking
41:04in any way at all
41:06he was always
41:07considered
41:07in fact
41:08to potentially
41:09to be quite
41:10a bright lad
41:11but there was also
41:13a lot of evidence
41:13he was a hyperactive lad
41:15that he was very aggressive
41:17and that he was fighting
41:20there was an occasion
41:21where he tried
41:22to strangle
41:23another boy
41:23with a ruler
41:24which is well recorded
41:25and documented
41:26if he was spoken to
41:27or if he wanted
41:28to seek attention
41:29he'd roll around
41:30the walls
41:31in the classroom
41:31and pull pictures
41:33etc.
41:33that were on display
41:34really bizarre
41:36type of behaviour
41:37but also
41:38he'd been the subject
41:40of bullying
41:40in school
41:41and some of that
41:42bullying
41:42had been instigated
41:44by Thompson himself
41:46Thompson went
41:47to the same school
41:48as Venables
41:49at a school
41:49called St Mary's
41:50Church of England
41:51school
41:51and he was not
41:53considered to be
41:54one of the worst
41:55pupils in the school
41:56as his head teacher
41:58said to us
41:58when we interviewed
41:59her
42:00the pair of them
42:01would go together
42:02she knew
42:03if one was in trouble
42:04the other one
42:05would be there
42:05and that the leader
42:06would always be
42:07Thompson
42:08followed by Venables
42:11over the last
42:12eight years
42:12psychologists
42:13have been trying
42:14to understand
42:15the boys relationship
42:16in an effort
42:17to make sense
42:18of what happened
42:19that day
42:20they would
42:21encourage each other
42:22to go that step
42:24further
42:24and to maintain
42:26some feeling
42:27of self-worth
42:29in the eyes
42:30of the other boy
42:31so that
42:32that would
42:33make them
42:34do things
42:35that potentially
42:36were much more
42:38destructive
42:39and much more
42:40violent and vicious
42:40than either of them
42:42might have done
42:43on their own
42:44I suppose
42:45they were cheeky
42:46literally
42:46like all of us
42:47were
42:48Robert was
42:49like the hard
42:50faced type
42:51of boy
42:51like he just
42:53gave cheek
42:54back to the teachers
42:55and when Robert
42:56done it
42:56John would do it
42:59sometimes
43:00you'd see them
43:01getting over the wall
43:02or going out
43:03the gate
43:03and the day
43:05they happened
43:06they got over the wall
43:07at the time
43:08it was
43:10staying away
43:10from school
43:11being a truant
43:12is often very boring
43:13so they have to
43:14invent games
43:15and activities
43:16and things
43:16that they're
43:17going to do
43:18and the indications
43:20are that
43:21on that day
43:22they thought
43:22it would be
43:23interesting
43:23to pick on
43:25a toddler
43:27and involve
43:28that toddler
43:29in something
43:30that might have
43:30been close
43:31to some sort
43:32of a game
43:33that would
43:34hurt and
43:35abuse a toddler
43:36because they had
43:37attempted to take
43:38a child
43:38earlier on
43:39in the day
43:39the punishment
43:41for young people
43:41who have been
43:42sentenced
43:42for a crime
43:43is the restriction
43:44of their liberty
43:45that's the punishment
43:46the cause
43:47imposes
43:48but clearly
43:49it doesn't follow
43:50the environment
43:51that young people
43:52in has to be punitive
43:54if you simply
43:55punish children
43:56on a daily basis
43:58they don't learn
43:59they don't learn
44:00respect for others
44:01they certainly
44:01don't learn
44:02respect for themselves
44:04and it's our job
44:05to raise these
44:06young people's
44:06self-esteem
44:07and positive
44:08aspects of their
44:09behaviour
44:09so that when
44:10they leave us
44:11they have
44:12alternatives
44:12they have an
44:13alternative to
44:14the life of crime
44:17your every movement
44:18in the building
44:18is monitored
44:19and supervised
44:21every minute
44:22the only time
44:23that you're not
44:24monitored and supervised
44:24is when you're
44:25in your bedroom
44:25and even then
44:26you're monitored
44:27every 15 minutes
44:29I think you'll
44:30probably be
44:30immediately struck
44:31by the fact
44:33that this young person
44:34has a television
44:34for young people
44:35to have a television
44:37in their room
44:37they have to achieve
44:38a very very high
44:39standard behaviour
44:40if this young person's
44:41behaviour deteriorates
44:42then this will be removed
44:43and it will take him
44:45two to three weeks
44:46to get back to this stage
44:48but do you think
44:49it's an undue criticism
44:50when you've seen it
44:51in tabloid press
44:52over having these things here
44:54because you know full well
44:56that even where they are
44:57they would have had to
44:58have gone through
44:58a sustained process
45:01to actually earn
45:02those privileges
45:02yes they would have done
45:03I can't talk specifically
45:04about Thompson or Venable
45:06but for young people
45:07who have been out of control
45:09of authorities
45:10for many years
45:11it is not easy
45:12to achieve this
45:13it's very very easy
45:15to lose it
45:15very easy
45:20I should imagine
45:21that some of the children
45:22who come in here
45:23must get very close
45:24to your staff
45:26the teachers
45:26who are in here
45:28I think that's inevitable
45:29we have young people
45:30who form significant attachments
45:33and clearly
45:36we are an intensive unit
45:39I mean children
45:40are constantly
45:41under the supervision
45:41of adults
45:42and they very quickly
45:44begin to trust
45:44those adults around them
45:45and develop relationships
45:46with them
45:47and that can only be a positive
45:51there are many examples
45:53of youngsters
45:54being successfully released
45:55from secure children's homes
45:57who have been detained
45:57for long periods of time
46:01in all of the cases
46:03and there's several thousand cases
46:05which I've seen
46:06the chances of them
46:07re-offending
46:08in a very very serious way
46:09the sort of repeat offence
46:11are very minimal
46:14the question is
46:15do I have confidence
46:16in that system
46:17I do have confidence
46:18in that system
46:19does it mean to say
46:20that all cases will succeed
46:22no of course it doesn't mean that
46:23and can anyone
46:25offer any guarantees
46:26of course not
46:27but decisions are made
46:30by the parole board
46:31based on the best
46:33available evidence
46:35evidence over many years
46:42I think it has changed my views
46:45but I still think
46:46that the tariff
46:47that was set
46:48is inadequate
46:49and it should have been
46:50far greater than it was
46:52but having said that
46:54during the time
46:55that they're in here
46:56I've got no doubt about it
46:58that if all institutions
47:00are running the same way
47:01as this one is
47:02at least
47:03they're coming out of it
47:05they know they've been punished
47:06by the regime that's in there
47:07but at least they've had
47:08the opportunity
47:09of rebuilding their lives again
47:12what do you think
47:13made the difference
47:14in your life?
47:15I look upon individuals
47:16in my life
47:17who I can look up to now
47:19who I think
47:20were really instrumental
47:22in formulating
47:23who I turned out to be
47:24my house masters at school
47:26were men who
47:29were really tremendous people
47:33who knew how to
47:34understand children
47:35most of us
47:36have had no fathers
47:39but these men
47:40knew how to
47:40deal with us
47:41in a very firm
47:43but sympathetic way
47:44they'd made impressions
47:46upon me
47:46which stayed with me
47:48forever in a day
47:49in the same way
47:50that other people
47:51had with their parents
47:52so I think
47:53although perhaps
47:53unfortunate in some ways
47:55I was blessed
47:56with having people
47:56around me
47:57that were very
47:58very good people
47:59very influential people
48:02and people
48:02that have helped me
48:03in life
48:04go around the secure unit
48:05they seem to have
48:06that sort of system
48:07almost in place
48:08strong male figures
48:10could you see any
48:12salvation there?
48:13no, you asked me
48:14the question
48:14I'll tell you
48:15yeah I did
48:50were you the same man
48:51at the end of the case
48:52as you were at the beginning?
48:54I think I was a wiser man
48:56I think I was a far more
48:57compassionate man
48:58at the end of the day
48:59than I was at the time
49:02and I've certainly
49:03got an awful lot
49:04more sympathy
49:06towards people's views
49:07and feelings
49:08than I had prior to
49:09the February of 1993
49:30and I was a very exciting
49:40and I was very good
49:41and I was very grateful
49:41that people