- 9 hours ago
At the India Today Conclave 2026, European diplomats said their countries are not participating in the escalating US–Israel–Iran war, even though the conflict’s economic fallout — particularly rising energy prices and supply disruptions — is being felt across Europe.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00For decades, the transatlantic alliance between the U.S. and Europe was the anchor of the
00:10global order. Today, that alliance is under stress. From a renewed U.S. assertiveness
00:18under the second term of Donald Trump, from the war with Iran, which we're all experiencing,
00:23and, of course, from Europe's own search for strategic autonomy. So, in this session,
00:30we ask, are Europe and America still partners shaping the world together, or they are increasingly
00:37negotiating from opposite sides of the diplomatic front line? To discuss this very, very important
00:44issue, we are delighted to welcome three distinguished ambassadors from Europe to the India Today
00:50Conclave, Dr. Philip Ackermann, the German ambassador to India, Mr. Antonio Bertoni, the Italian ambassador
00:58to India, and Juan Antonio Marc, that's how you pronounce it, the Spanish ambassador to India.
01:05Let's give them a very, very warm round of applause.
01:11Ambassador Ackermann, let's start with you. Germany shares the American objective of preventing
01:17Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Yet, as the war progressed, it has ruled out military
01:24participation, or putting boots on the ground, and has warned against the collapse of the Iranian
01:30state. So, what is Germany's approach to Iran – the Iran war? And isn't the U.S. violating
01:38the very rule-based international order that Germany professes to uphold?
01:44Thank you, Raj. Let's start by saying that everybody is of the opinion that Iran shouldn't
01:49have nuclear weapons, including India, I would say. Russia, China, everybody thinks they should
01:53not have nuclear weapons. And as you know, it was a task that the international community
01:59took upon itself to develop a network of very, you know, sound agreements and contracts, the
02:07JCPOA, to prevent Iran from having these nuclear weapons. Now, unfortunately, during the first
02:14Trump administration, the Americans walked out of this agreement, and therefore, we have
02:19now the situation in which we are right now. It is clear that – let me make two points
02:26here. First of all, Europe suffers from this war. We have seen, you know, fuel prices going
02:31up. Our economies are slowly recovering. Now, with the energy crisis that we are facing through
02:38this war now, our economy will have a – you know, will slow down and not have this upswing
02:45which we expected it to have. And the second thing which is very important
02:49is for us there is still a very, very important and extremely concerning war happening in front
02:56of our doors, the Russian war of aggression in Ukraine. And all of a sudden, you know,
03:02the whole attention shifted away from this war which costs hundreds of thousands of lives
03:07every week and every month. And therefore, I think what is very, you know, concerning for
03:13us is that this war gets out of perspective now. We see with a certain concern that the Americans
03:19all of a sudden lifted sanctions when it comes to Russian oil purchase which we don't, you
03:26know, Europe doesn't like that. We don't subscribe to that because we feel we should not, you
03:34know, stop working for the end of this war also. Let me say that the Iran war, I hope it
03:40is ended soon. I don't know. You know, nobody knows exactly what's going on. So I hope it will
03:46end soon so that we can concentrate on the things we should be concentrating on.
03:51All right. Ambassador Bartoli, the fact that – and we will talk about the Russian oil
03:56because the fact that America has now allowed, all countries allowed, permitted – I mean,
04:01the words keep ringing and we can keep talking about it. But the fact that America has allowed,
04:06we'll have to wait and see how Europe really reacts to that permission that has been granted.
04:11But Ambassador Bartoli, you are a unique – you're in a unique position, a unique country. The
04:17Italian Prime Minister is friends with America, President Trump especially so. In such a scenario,
04:24she's come out after the Minab school attack, criticized what is happening in Iran,
04:31called it outside the purview of international laws. How does Italy reconcile its traditional
04:38ties with America and yet question its action against Iran?
04:46First of all, good morning. And let me say that we have always been not only Italy, I mean,
04:57having a special relationship with the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. We are founders of European
05:07Union and NATO. These are the guiding stars of our foreign policies. And Europe and the U.S. for social,
05:24economic, geographical, historic factors have never been identical. You remember Robert Kagan that said,
05:33you know, Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus. The point is that we have always tried to,
05:44through mediation, through dialogue, to reconcile the differences. And even Marco Rubio said, notwithstanding the differences, Europe and the U
05:57.S. have the awareness, he said in Munich,
06:04to belong to the West. Now, the West is not a mythological,
06:10neither a mythological nor a monolithic entity, is a sense of belonging. And I think that we should cultivate this
06:24without any,
06:25with loyalty, with transparency, without any subordination. Of course, there is a shift. There is a shift from Europe, of
06:38the Cold War, that was a center after the Cold War scenario, to the Indo-Pacific. Of course, there is
06:45a style that is much more aggressive, assertive.
06:51There is a selective commitment of military, U.S. military. But I think, first of all, this is a global
07:03trend, in the sense that it is a global shift towards multipolarity and a weakening of the international organizations.
07:14One of the strongest blow was struck, frankly speaking, by Russia, a member of the Security Council, with its aggression
07:26to Ukraine, that was a blatant violation of the principles United Nations are based on.
07:38The second point is that I think that from critical inflection points, we should always learn lessons and leverage the
07:54right signals.
07:55And this is a wake-up call for Europe, for strategic autonomy, having said that the European pillar that we
08:06have to strengthen, because in terms of technology, capacity gaps, and the things we know, is not contradictory with NATO
08:16alliance.
08:17Right.
08:18But there is one country that is practicing strategic autonomy beyond just saying it, and that is Spain.
08:27President Pedro Sanchez has removed the Spanish ambassador from Israel. He is refusing his bases to Israel and America. That
08:38is a very strong position, Ambassador Mark.
08:40Is this a shift in Spain's Middle East policy, so to say, and the larger shift in how Europe, particularly
08:51Spain, will engage with America?
08:55Well, I would say, you know, our strong position is in favor of the UN, you know, is in favor
09:02of a big multilateral institution to fight in favor of peace and development.
09:10I think we have forgotten how fast goes always destruction and how slowly it is to build in the things.
09:19You can build a city maybe in 1,000 years. You can destroy it in 30 seconds with an earthquake.
09:27So building is very difficult.
09:29Last time here, Minister Jaishankar was saying that the last 70 years is just 1% of the history of
09:38India.
09:38I would say that the 80 years of the United Nations is 0.0005 of the history of humanity.
09:49So the human beings, we have been here for 200,000 years.
09:53We had two big wars in Europe. First World War, Second World War, 45 million people dead.
10:02And thanks to that, the humanity has built the first body, global body for politics in the world.
10:08And the development has been enormous. You know, we were 2.3 billion people in 1945 when the United Nations
10:18is created.
10:192.3 billion people. Today we're 8 billion people. Life expectancy in India in 1945 was 33 years old.
10:30Today is 72. In Spain, it was 48. Today is 85. So the development has been incredible.
10:39So what we say is that we have to go not to weaken the United Nations, but to make it
10:46stronger.
10:46I am totally in the idea of Minister Jaishankar when he said how you are better with the United Nations
10:57or without.
10:58And he said, with the United Nations. And he said, but this body has to adapt.
11:03And I said, yes, Spain is very fond of having India inside of the Security Council.
11:10But we would not like to have India as one of the other five countries looking for a national interest
11:17or a kind of traditional policy.
11:20We would like to have India as the country that moves humanity to the new stage.
11:26And as very well said the President of Finland, who was here just a few days ago, when he said,
11:33we have to go out from this competition world to a kind of cooperation world.
11:39Because competition will take us to confrontation. And confrontation will take us to disaster.
11:46So I think, you know, that the position of Spain is very clear. We are in favor of peace.
11:51Any time that there is disruption, there is a big problem for humanity.
11:57The last war in Syria was about eight million people, refugees in Europe.
12:03So everything happens, something in the Middle East is a big, big disaster for the region, obviously for Europe.
12:11So we have to change the north of the events.
12:16And one thing last I would say, you know, the difference in this world is that they do.
12:21The young generation is not in favor of any war.
12:25There is a big difference because when it was the First World War, you know, there is this famous book
12:31of Marcel Proust called
12:36Searching the Lost Time.
12:38It was describing how Germany and France had not had any kind of confrontation for 40 years.
12:45At that time, life expectancy was 40 years.
12:47So the new generation had no idea what was war.
12:51And everybody in Germany and in France was going to the office of recruitment to go to the war.
12:57It was enthusiasm.
12:59Nowadays, there is not a single young person who wants to go to the war.
13:03And that is why all those who provoke wars, they say there will be no casualty.
13:08They want to make a kind of technological war.
13:11But we have to say the new generation, as the president of your group was saying today, is living the
13:18most impressive world in all the history of humanity.
13:22It's full of possibilities.
13:24So the Spanish government says no to the war, yes to the peace.
13:29This is a good way to segue into the next question.
13:35Very strong views.
13:37Ambassador Ackerman, you've already mentioned about the fact that you were against U.S. lifting the temporary sanctions against Russian
13:45oil so that you could buy oil across.
13:48But there is a problem, which Ambassador Mark was talking about, is the push for peace.
13:56We know the Strait of Homos is a choke point that's there.
13:59And what is Germany, for instance, doing to ensure, talk to its Middle Eastern friends and talk to the U
14:08.S.
14:08and try and bring a diplomatic solution to this, or at least bring peace so that this disruption doesn't happen?
14:16So I think we are…
14:18Let's talk about the Russian oil.
14:20Just clarify your position on that as well.
14:21So my position on the Russian oil is crystal clear.
14:25It is not a good idea to lift the ceiling of, you know, the price ceiling on the barrel of
14:33Russian oil because we don't want Russia to have more money to lead a war in Ukraine.
14:38You know, that's very, very clear.
14:39But will you buy that oil now that it is…
14:41We don't buy Russian oil.
14:43Okay.
14:43Zero.
14:44Zero.
14:44Zero.
14:44Not a drop of Russian oil will come in.
14:48Right.
14:48But, you know, others, you know, the oil markets are disrupted.
14:51The Strait of Homos is closed.
14:54De facto closed, at least, you know.
14:55And therefore, everywhere in the world, price, at least in Europe, prices are going up.
15:01And that's something that we have to be concerned of.
15:03You know, this is slowing down our economy.
15:05Our people are unhappy.
15:07And it's…
15:08I find it a sort of a consequence of this war, which is not our war.
15:12You know, we don't participate in this war.
15:14There is no European country that is part of this war.
15:18That does not mean that we don't speak to the Americans and try to find out what, you know,
15:22what's the plan.
15:23I don't know.
15:24I don't…
15:24Maybe you know.
15:25I have no clue.
15:26I mean, what is the end game of this war?
15:29You know, I see the danger that comes out of Iran.
15:31I think that we have faced that danger for a couple of years.
15:36And we understand also the, you know, the concern of Israel when it comes to Iran.
15:41But what we see now, we will see whether that leads to a success, you know.
15:45I think it's not a done deal yet so far.
15:47But Germany is doing…
15:48Is Germany doing anything to put…
15:50Either talk to the U.S. and also Middle Eastern friends to bring about…
15:53I think what we do is a very, very strong and active diplomacy.
15:57My minister traveled.
15:58I think he was the first European minister who visited all these Gulf states.
16:01And, you know, try to express our solidarity with what, you know,
16:05they have to suffer right now in spite of themselves.
16:08They are not part of this war either.
16:10And we will, of course, continue our discussion with our American allies.
16:15I think under current circumstances, to be very honest with you,
16:20I see the European influence in this game between the Middle East
16:24and America and Israel not as huge, you know, frankly.
16:28I think there is no big way that we can influence this war right now in a way that would
16:35lead to peace.
16:36But we express our concern.
16:38We do interact with the partners in the region.
16:41And we also talk to the Americans in order to try to find out where the wars go.
16:46What is the end game over here?
16:49Ambassador Ackerman, Germany is not entering the war.
16:52But Italy has deployed its air defense assets in the Gulf countries to protect its 2,000 troops there.
17:00What is the end game?
17:02Are we looking at a resolution in sight?
17:05Because it does deprioritize Ukraine.
17:09First of all, let me make it clear.
17:13This is a war we didn't want, we don't participate in, and we will not participate in.
17:21We acted, not in words, but in deeds to a diplomatic effort, always in contact with the Middle East partners.
17:30We hosted two rounds of the nuclear negotiations in Rome.
17:39Now the point is that we have two bad options.
17:43There is not an ideal option and a bad option.
17:46There are two bad options.
17:47And we are confronted with the reality.
17:49This is the director of the Atomic Agency, Rafael Grossi, that has stated, declared that Iran was enriching beyond 60
18:04percent,
18:05which is not the case, for example, of the UAE when they struck a deal on the nuclear, civilian nuclear.
18:13So it's an enrichment that can be instrumental to the atomic bonds.
18:20And they are working to long-range missiles that can reach easily also Europe.
18:29This is the reality.
18:30So we are keeping on working with our Middle East partners, with our European partners.
18:39Meloni promoted contact with several European countries.
18:45Second, we are, of course, protecting, as you said, our troops and our fellow nationals.
18:53There are several thousands of Italians in the Gulf area.
18:59We repatriated so far more than 25,000 people from the area.
19:06Third, we are providing defense assets to the most exposed countries, not only for them, which is already important,
19:21also for our assets in the area, through missile defense system and anti-missile defense system.
19:30And we sent, because don't forget that also a European country has been attacked, Cyprus, and a NATO country.
19:41I think yesterday was the third missile drone sent against Turkey.
19:48So we sent a free gate to Cyprus to protect Cyprus.
19:55Let me say two things.
19:58First, I understand there is a confusion between reality and the domestic narrative that everyone legitimately uses.
20:10We are doing nothing different from Spain, because all of us, we have American bases.
20:18The use of these bases regulated by agreements, in our case dating back to 1954.
20:29All the Italian governments have confirmed this, notwithstanding the political orientation.
20:35These agreements state you that they can use for logistic purposes, not for kinetic reasons, which means bombarding.
20:49Okay?
20:51It should be the case.
20:53We are a parliamentary system.
20:56The decision is up to the government.
20:59But the prime minister said in the parliament, and by the way, was one of the few leaders going to
21:05the parliament to discuss this,
21:10that the decision will be under the approval of the parliament.
21:14But it's not, we haven't received any requests yet.
21:18Second, we are all, we all love our mum, we are all for peace, and we all wish that the
21:27United Nations could be an effective global governance.
21:31As in the case of Europe, authority is something that you have to exert, not just revendicate.
21:38And so I think that several happenings have undermined the credibility of the United Nations.
21:45That doesn't mean to abandon the United Nations, but there is a need to reform to make it effective again.
21:54Because, frankly, if you nominate, you know, as, I think, Vice President of the Human Rights Council, a representative of
22:08the Iranian Republic,
22:10that is not something instrumental to UN credibility.
22:16Let's come to you, Ambassador Mark, and you listen to both your counterparts here.
22:21One of the issues, I think Ambassador Ackerman said, is, in some ways, without admitting it,
22:27Europe's diminishing influence over America and its ability to influence the actions that America does outside.
22:35Spain has taken the strongest stand, as Geeta had discussed with you.
22:38What do you think is the way forward in terms of diplomatic solutions that, say, Spain can or Europe can
22:45put forward?
22:46Or let's be more provocative.
22:48Is Europe important as the U.S. says it is?
22:52Many of its senior officials say it.
22:53What's your viewpoint on that?
22:56Well, you know, we are part of a great group of nations in the world, that is the European Union.
23:05So we have a common trade policy in the world.
23:08So we are dealing with the United States as a group of countries, not as individual countries.
23:15But for us, the main point is to be centered on the key issues of humanity now.
23:25And peace is the key thing.
23:26I remember an anecdote that, for me, was very important.
23:30Early in the 90s, when I was at the OECD, I was in the Development Assistance Committee.
23:36And Robert McNamara, the former Secretary of State of the United States, came.
23:41At that time, he was the president of the World Bank.
23:44And then the question that was addressed to him was, listen, you were the Secretary of State of Defense of
23:51the United States in the Vietnam War.
23:54After 20 years, do you think that was a mistake or not?
23:58And he said that that was a total mistake, he said.
24:03And now he was the president of the World Bank.
24:06So he went for weapons to development.
24:10Well, what do you say to these 400,000 Americans that have no arms, no eyes?
24:18So the big problem is that all those who decide wars nowadays, they don't go to the front.
24:25They don't go to the front.
24:27So we have very intents of the new generation to see we want a world of peace and possibilities.
24:35And the United Nations, we have 193 nations.
24:40It means that, you know, the humanity has very small nations like Monaco, Andorra,
24:46big nations as India, as the United States or Germany or Italy.
24:50But we have 193 people who can decide about the future of the world.
24:56And that is very important.
24:58And that was only possible because of 45 million people dead in the Second World War.
25:05That is the key thing to understand.
25:06So we have to consider that the only enemy humanity has in this planet is ourselves.
25:14You know, we can fly, we can go to the sea, we can do whatever we like.
25:19But we are unable to organize ourselves in such an efficient way to go to be a civilization of harmony.
25:28So that is why the Spanish government thinks the key thing at this moment is to reinforce the United Nations
25:36and to use diplomacy to try to solve the conflicts.
25:40Right, Ambassador, I respectfully disagree because I do not think 193 countries decide anything today.
25:47Fifteen people in a room of which five with veto power.
25:50And that's why the world is seeking change and reforms.
25:53Rules-based order and engagement have completely changed, Ambassador Ackerman.
26:00This is not the same world today that we are looking at.
26:03Straight of Hormuz choked.
26:06It is having a huge impact on us.
26:08And we are looking at a situation and a scenario where things can go spiraling down at a very, very
26:14fast rate.
26:15At this point in time, I ask you this.
26:18There was a ship, an Iranian ship that was sunk in the Indian Ocean, our backwaters.
26:25And I flip the question, if this was not United States of America or if it was Russia or China,
26:30what would you have done?
26:32I think, you know, in this case when a ship was, is torpedoed and sinks, nobody can do anything, even,
26:39you know.
26:39But the reaction is, but I, Gita, let me just take one step back,
26:45because the question Raj asked to Juan Antonio needs to be answered in a very concrete way.
26:53We were surprised by this war.
26:55Nobody informed us about this war.
26:57And we don't know the endgame.
26:59We don't know what is the idea of an outcome of this war.
27:05Now, if you have this circumstance, it's very difficult to come up with a diplomatic solution.
27:10You don't know what the Americans and the Israelis really want to achieve.
27:14You know, there are several options on the table, you know.
27:18I don't know the options.
27:19I know that they're shifting goalposts.
27:21They say regime change.
27:22Goalposts, I agree with you.
27:23I agree with you.
27:23Yeah, they say, no, we've destroyed Iran.
27:25Regime change only the…
27:25Then they say they've taken all the nuclear facilities.
27:28And then they say they've gone into takeout.
27:29When you don't know this sort of the endgame, the goal, it's very difficult to come up with this diplomacy.
27:36I will flag one thing.
27:38Europe is a family, you know.
27:40In a family, people express themselves differently, but it's a close family.
27:44You know, these friends of mine sitting here, I see the Greek ambassador also.
27:49It's…
27:50We are very, very close.
27:51And I think in this war, we basically were pretty united, you know.
27:54I mean, there is no really disagreement between us.
27:58People express themselves differently.
27:59But this family has one big advantage over many others.
28:03We have all embassies in Iran, or most of us.
28:07You know, we have relations with Iran.
28:09We have been talking to Iran about, you know, for decades now.
28:13We know them much better than Israel and the United States do.
28:17So, basically, I think Europe can theoretically be of huge, you know, views to this situation.
28:26But if you don't know what is the outcome, if you don't know where we are going with this war,
28:32it's very difficult to come in a constructive way.
28:35And that's what I wanted to say.
28:37I feel that we need to involve the Americans.
28:40We need to keep them in a talking mode on that.
28:43But are we, you know, contributing actively to solve this crisis?
28:48I am afraid not, because we are not really in the game, and also not us, actually, by Israel and
28:54the United States.
28:55Just a quick round.
28:56We've got exactly one and a half minutes.
28:58Thirty seconds.
28:59I'd like to, each of you all, thirty seconds, to talk about what you think is India's role.
29:06What role can India play in all this?
29:08We don't know the end game.
29:10We know the consequences.
29:11The consequences is a raise of prices and inflation, and so a depressing effect of our economies.
29:20We know that the ones who are gaining from this are the guys in Moscow.
29:28I was saying India's role.
29:29Can you just...
29:30No, no, no.
29:31But this is important, because I reason on numbers.
29:36We have...
29:37Only the two weeks from the start of the war, Russia has gained from oil 2.4 billion more than
29:48in the previous situations.
29:49They...
29:50They...
29:51They...
29:51For $10 more in price, they earn 2.6 billion per month, of which 1.8 goes directly to the
30:02state.
30:03So, India, and Asia in general, and Europe are paying the price.
30:11Ukraine is paying the price.
30:13For the first time in February...
30:16Are you saying India should not buy the...
30:18No, and you're...
30:20I'm saying who is gaining and who is losing.
30:24And...
30:24And...
30:25And India has the same problems as we do.
30:28As a problem of energy, because, I mean, 20% of global trade goes through the Ormuts, and a consistent
30:40percentage of your imports in energy goes through there.
30:44Right.
30:45And you have the problems of, as I said, of fellow nationals.
30:50You have 10 million in the area.
30:51So, are exactly the same.
30:53Are exactly the same.
30:55Ambassador, quickly.
30:56I think...
30:56Well, for me, India should be, at this moment, the locomotive of the world in favor of harmony and inclusiveness.
31:05You know, everybody knows the history of India here, but in Europe, we know it so well sometimes.
31:10So, people think in Europe that in 1947 was India and Pakistan.
31:15No.
31:16It was India and some states that have political power, they have armies, and then from 1947 to 1944, all
31:25these armies disappeared, and you created only one republic.
31:28We, in Europe, we are 27 countries, but we have 27 armies.
31:32We have not gone so far as India.
31:34So, I think this quality of integrating a single space where people go from Calcutta to Kerala, and they have
31:42the same currency, they move as Europe, but they have no armies.
31:47You have only police.
31:48You have only police.
31:49We have to move to this new world.
31:50We have to move from the United Nations to the United Humanity.
31:55And I think the United States could have been this locomotive after the COVID, but maybe now India should be
32:03the real locomotive.
32:04Last word for you.
32:06And, Gita.
32:06So, 30 seconds for ambassadors is a challenge, actually.
32:09You know, that, I think, comes with our profession.
32:11I would say that India is in a very similar position like Europe.
32:14You have very good relations with Israel.
32:17You have very good relations with Iran.
32:19You are very much concerned.
32:20Antonio said it.
32:21You have so many nations in the area.
32:23India is sort of very, very impacted by what happens.
32:27So, what you should do, I think, is what we do.
32:30Ask the Americans.
32:31Talk to us.
32:32Explain it.
32:33What can we do?
32:34What can we try to contribute to make the situation better?
32:37And you have to request that.
32:39You have demanded from the Americans to tell you where you are going, what you are doing,
32:44because you are involuntarily, you are part of this whole setup.
32:49And, therefore, you know, it's in your neighborhood.
32:52It's your person, your fellow citizens are concerned.
32:56You will also suffer at some stage from, you see what happens with the gas.
33:00So, basically, I think you have every right to, you get, you push yourself into at least a conversation about
33:07that.
33:08Well, on that note, we do know that there is no end game in sight.
33:14The global order today is not just shaken, it's absolutely broken.
33:18And by the end of all the wars, Ukraine, Gaza, and Iran, we will be putting the pieces back together,
33:26but cracks will remain.
33:27On that war is grim, and on that grim note, I'd like to thank the gentlemen here.
33:32Thank you so much.
Comments