- 16 hours ago
The Common Sense Bible Study crew discuss Romans 9:29-10:3, discussing Isaiah’s “offspring” as God preserving Israel from total destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah. Gentiles attaining righteousness by faith while Israel pursued an un-biblical law-based righteousness and stumbled over the "stone" passages that Paul combines from Isaiah 8:14 and 28:16. They discuss Israel’s exile and promised restoration, including scattered tribes and believing Gentiles joining the return, and stress that Torah’s purpose is to support covenant relationship rather than become an end in itself. The conversation touches on zeal without knowledge, traditions overriding commandments (Mark 7:9–13), parables about preparedness and oil, and debates about prayer, Calvinism, and assurance of salvation, emphasizing salvation by repentance and faith with obedience as a response rather than as a means to earn it.
From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.
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From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.
Follow me on X: https://jaycarper.com/twitter
Follow me on Facebook: https://jaycarper.com/fbat
Follow me on Whole Bible Community: https://jaycarper.com/ttn
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LearningTranscript
00:00:02The recordings of Common Sense Bible Study's discussion of Romans 5, 9 through 9, 29 were lost.
00:00:08I will have to re-record those for my notes and with only yours truly.
00:00:13For now, I will continue to edit and upload the recording starting in chapter 9, verse 30.
00:00:19All right, welcome back to a journey through the book of Romans.
00:00:23We're starting to get to the end of the really difficult parts of Romans.
00:00:27And Romans, I think a lot of the rest of the book is going to be a little bit easier
00:00:30to understand and talk about now that we've gotten through some of the harder parts.
00:00:35We've got a little bit more to go.
00:00:37Chapter 10 and chapter 11 also have some difficult things in them.
00:00:42But most of the really tough stuff was in chapter 8 and 9, I think.
00:00:47Excuse me.
00:00:48All right.
00:00:50As usual, I'm going to start back one verse from where we left off.
00:00:54We'll start on Romans 9, 29.
00:00:56Romans 9, 29.
00:00:58And as Isaiah predicted, if the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom
00:01:03and become like Gomorrah.
00:01:05What shall we say then?
00:01:07That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it?
00:01:09That is, a righteousness that is by faith.
00:01:12But that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
00:01:18Why?
00:01:18Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
00:01:22They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,
00:01:25Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.
00:01:29And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.
00:01:33Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
00:01:37For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
00:01:41For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's
00:01:47righteousness.
00:01:48For Christ is the end of the law of righteousness to everyone who believes.
00:01:53For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall
00:01:58live by them.
00:01:59But the righteousness based on faith says,
00:02:02Do not say in your heart who will ascend into heaven, that is to bring Christ down, or who will
00:02:06descend into the abyss, that is to bring Christ up from the dead.
00:02:10But what does it say?
00:02:11The word is near you in your mouth and in your heart.
00:02:14That is the word of faith that we proclaim.
00:02:16Because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him
00:02:21from the dead, you will be saved.
00:02:23All right.
00:02:25Let's stop there.
00:02:27If we get past verse 9, that's great.
00:02:29But we'll read more when we get there.
00:02:32Okay.
00:02:33So as we had talked about with verses 27 to 29,
00:02:37God had told Israel and Judah, the two houses, that he was exiling them from the land because they were
00:02:45unfaithful.
00:02:46But he also promised to restore them.
00:02:48And he said the same people who were exiled would be called back to the same place from which they
00:02:54were exiled.
00:02:55Whether it was Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom, or whether it was Jerusalem.
00:03:02Exactly what he meant by that.
00:03:03I'm not really sure.
00:03:04But it does mean that the same people grew that was exiled are the people coming back.
00:03:10So the Jews still have a place in God's plan.
00:03:14And by Jews, I'm using that as a collective term for all of the native-born Israelites.
00:03:18I'm not talking about just the tribe of Judah.
00:03:21Of course, there are many Israelites who were scattered among the nations and essentially lost their identity.
00:03:29And in fact, that's where most of the northern kingdom ended up.
00:03:33Many of them migrated south and eventually became identified with Judah.
00:03:38And even in exile, some of those who were in Babylon and in Egypt and other places,
00:03:44they assimilated into the people of Judah who were scattered there.
00:03:49But most of the northern tribes were scattered and lost, not to God, but to themselves and to history.
00:03:56But God promises to restore them back.
00:03:58And he promises that he's bringing back another mixed multitude with them.
00:04:02And I think that means both with the Jews and Ephraim, with both kingdoms,
00:04:09when God calls them back to the land, they're bringing back a multitude of believing Gentiles with them.
00:04:16And we see a little bit of that in Ezekiel 47, where God says,
00:04:20when he calls them back, they're going to reapportion the land.
00:04:24And he says, any of these sojourners who are living among you and have had children among you,
00:04:31you're going to give them an inheritance in the land, just as if they were native-born.
00:04:35And there will no longer be any difference.
00:04:38If we get far enough, we'll actually talk about that a little bit later time, too.
00:04:43So let's move on to verse 30.
00:04:45So what shall we say, then, that Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it,
00:04:50that is, a righteousness that is by faith,
00:04:53but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law?
00:04:59Can we go back, Jay, to 29 just for a second?
00:05:02Sure.
00:05:03I wanted to see if my take on this was accurate.
00:05:08I believe it is.
00:05:09But when he's referencing, if the Lord of hosts has not left us offspring,
00:05:14then we would be like Sodom and Gomorrah.
00:05:17Is that not a reference to Genesis, be fruitful and multiply?
00:05:23Referencing Sodom and Gomorrah as homosexual, thus no offspring?
00:05:28I think it's more of a reference to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
00:05:32Saying that God has left them no offspring, regardless of their specific sins.
00:05:39God completely destroyed them, wiped them out.
00:05:42And so he's saying that if God had not preserved us, even in exile,
00:05:48then we would have been completely eliminated.
00:05:51So it's like saying that the survival of the Jewish people or Israel,
00:05:56even the non-Jews, but those scattered among the nations,
00:06:00their survival is a miracle.
00:06:03That no other people could still exist out there the way that they do.
00:06:08Do you view the offspring as a remnant of their faith and not the fact that their children are a
00:06:17continuation of the lineage?
00:06:20It might allude to both, but I think primarily it's talking about their physical lineage here.
00:06:27I think the demarcation has to do with offspring.
00:06:31And whether it's because Sodom and Gomorrah was obliterated or because of the acts that they chose,
00:06:37they would not have had offspring regardless.
00:06:40I think the offspring is the blessing that he is referring to.
00:06:47It's certainly one of the blessings.
00:06:49I think later we're going to read a reference to that if you keep the commandments, you'll live by them.
00:06:56And that is one of the benefits.
00:06:57If you're going to follow God's commandments, then these commandments bring life.
00:07:01It's just part of the natural law, the way that God set the universe up to work.
00:07:04And if you violate them, that leads to death.
00:07:08And one of those is a lifestyle that is barren with it is unfruitful by definition.
00:07:18Yeah.
00:07:19So following that, what, what Paul references in the next few verses about the Jews following or seeking after a
00:07:27form of righteousness or what does he say?
00:07:31Let me get to the actual verse who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness because they pursued that
00:07:38law.
00:07:38That is part of why their God allows them to survive, because if there wasn't a single remnant of Israel
00:07:46that was keeping God's commandments.
00:07:49Then really God's promises would have failed because he promised that there would always be a remnant.
00:07:53But if they all were following the ways of Sodom and Gomorrah, yeah, you're right.
00:07:59They wouldn't have any offspring.
00:08:01Does that make sense?
00:08:02Or does that address the question?
00:08:05Yes.
00:08:06Thanks.
00:08:06Okay.
00:08:07All right.
00:08:08So in verse 30, Paul says the Gentiles did not pursue righteousness, but attained it.
00:08:15What does he mean when he says they did not pursue righteousness?
00:08:19Anybody feel free to speak up.
00:08:21They didn't follow the law.
00:08:24Didn't the Romans and the Greeks and the Babylonians, they all had their own laws.
00:08:29And for the most part, they were very similar to God's.
00:08:32Don't murder.
00:08:33Don't steal.
00:08:35Usually don't commit adultery, although they had maybe different definitions of those words at times.
00:08:41There was a lot of parallel between non-Hebrew law and God's commandments.
00:08:49And it does clarify that it is by faith.
00:08:54Yeah.
00:08:55The righteousness that they attained is by faith.
00:08:57Yeah.
00:08:57So if a Jew or Hebrew or an Israelite is pursuing the law, they have intermingled with that pursuit, they're
00:09:10doing so because it was handed down by God.
00:09:12In other words, they're doing it by faith.
00:09:14Whereas the Gentile is more or less maybe natural law.
00:09:20There are certain morals that are being presented to them, but they're not necessarily attributing to we're doing this because
00:09:29God told us to.
00:09:30Yeah, yeah.
00:09:31And I think that really does get to the heart of it because they're doing what they felt was right.
00:09:36Every man doing what was right in his own eyes, like the Israelites were doing during the time of the
00:09:40judges.
00:09:41And they weren't following God's commandments because they didn't know them.
00:09:45They were just doing what, you know, what their tradition told them was the right thing to do or what
00:09:49they felt was the right thing to do.
00:09:51And there's, of course, going to be a lot of similarities.
00:09:55A person who follows his conscience and tries to do the right thing is going to keep God's commandments most
00:10:02of the time because they really are built into who we are at some level.
00:10:07But a Gentile who does that isn't necessarily trying to achieve a righteousness that would allow him to be reunited
00:10:17with God.
00:10:18God is not going to restore him to the creator, and it's probable that never even crossed his mind.
00:10:24At some point, it would have.
00:10:26Everybody's got some point where God has convicted them of, I've really screwed up and there's a God who's going
00:10:34to hold me accountable for this.
00:10:35And I need to beg his mercy.
00:10:38At some point, I think we all have that moment.
00:10:41But throughout our lifetime, if we're not taught God's commandments, do we really have any conception that these things that
00:10:49I'm doing are what God commanded me to do?
00:10:52And this is going to make me righteous in his eyes.
00:10:56What would you do with the parable where Yeshua is talking about the two sons?
00:11:03One that says, I will do X and then does not, and one that says, there's no way I will
00:11:09do X.
00:11:10That is a, I made that connection, but that is a great connection.
00:11:15That's almost perfect for what Paul's talking about here.
00:11:18And the one who says he's not going to do it and then does it, that's like the Gentiles.
00:11:25They weren't looking to make themselves right with God, but then along comes Paul and Peter and these other apostles
00:11:30and say, hey, here's, you're screwing up and here's the evidence and here's the way to be right with God.
00:11:36And it's like, all of a sudden they believe and now they've got righteousness when they never even looked for
00:11:42it before.
00:11:43Whereas the Jews have spent 1500 years trying to follow God's commandments, thinking that's going to make them righteous in
00:11:53God's eyes.
00:11:53And there is a kind of righteousness there.
00:11:55As Paul says here in verse 31, they pursued a law that would lead to righteousness, but they didn't succeed
00:12:02in attaining it because they did it thinking that they were earning their way.
00:12:08And it's not, you can't earn your way back into God's graces after you've fallen.
00:12:15There's no way that you can bridge that gap between your fallen state and infinite righteousness.
00:12:22We talked about that back in chapter three, I think.
00:12:26But after you have confessed to your sin and submitted yourself to God, begged his mercy, and through God's grace,
00:12:36he has justified you, then your obedience to the commandments does bring righteousness.
00:12:43There is a righteousness from your behavior that counts after that point.
00:12:47And up until then, sure, it makes you a better life, but it doesn't get you anything in eternity until
00:12:53you've been justified.
00:12:54And then you can start adding to your spiritual balance book.
00:12:58Hoping that makes sense.
00:13:01Let's see, that's verse 31.
00:13:03Just checking my notes here to see if there's anything else that I wanted to say.
00:13:07Oh, yeah.
00:13:10The reason, I have this in my notes.
00:13:14The Jews' familiarity with the law and their pride at having been chosen above other nations led them to believe
00:13:20that the law was sufficient for all their spiritual needs.
00:13:24And over time, when they knew, you keep practicing the law and you never feel like you're there.
00:13:32And so they kept adding things and more permutations of fences.
00:13:38Build a fence around the fence because I don't feel like I kept the commandment.
00:13:41Maybe I got too close.
00:13:43So I'm going to add this extra commandment so I don't even get close to breaking it.
00:13:48And then they ended up with things like traditions that actually made people break the commandments and got it all
00:13:56turned around.
00:13:58But the Gentiles, on the other hand, they didn't have this barrier.
00:14:01They didn't have any preconceptions about God's commandments to overcome.
00:14:05So when they're presented with the fact of their guilt and the possibility of salvation, all at the same time,
00:14:12it's actually an easier thing to believe.
00:14:16At least that's what it seems to me.
00:14:18Whereas you're a Jew and you're presented with the gospel and you think, wait a minute, I've been keeping these
00:14:23commandments all my life.
00:14:24What do I need this other thing for?
00:14:26But one mistake is short of infinity.
00:14:31And God's righteous standard is infinitely high.
00:14:34So it only takes one failure.
00:14:37Okay.
00:14:38Let's move on to verse 32 and 33.
00:14:41So the why at the beginning of that is about how Israel pursued the law that would lead to righteousness,
00:14:50but did not succeed.
00:14:52Why?
00:14:52Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
00:14:56They have stumbled over the stumbling stone as it is written.
00:14:59Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.
00:15:03And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.
00:15:06Can somebody look up these two verses for me?
00:15:08Isaiah 8, 14 and 28, 16.
00:15:11It goes in the chat too.
00:15:13Let me know when you got them.
00:15:15Hold on.
00:15:17Did you say Isaiah 8, 14?
00:15:19I got Isaiah 8, 14.
00:15:23Go ahead.
00:15:24Shall I read it now?
00:15:25Yes, please.
00:15:27And he shall be for a set apart place, but a stone of stumbling and a rock that makes for
00:15:35falling to both the house of Israel as a trap
00:15:38and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
00:15:43Okay.
00:15:44And then does anybody have 28, 16?
00:15:46I'm pulling it up in another window here.
00:15:49All right.
00:15:50I'll go ahead and read that one.
00:15:52Therefore, thus says the Lord God, behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone
00:15:58for the foundation, firmly placed.
00:16:00He who believes in it will not be disturbed or not be put to shame, as Paul put it here.
00:16:06So Paul has actually taken two different verses from different parts of Isaiah and combined them into a single statement.
00:16:14And Paul does this kind of stuff.
00:16:17And Yeshua did this too, where he took phrases from different books and combined them together.
00:16:23It's not something that I would have a lot of confidence in unless I made it very clear that's what
00:16:29I was doing.
00:16:31But, you know, at the time Paul was writing Romans, they weren't as concerned about things like plagiarism and always
00:16:40giving precise credit.
00:16:41And they didn't have chapters and verses.
00:16:44When he says, as it's written, he gives one phrase from one verse and another phrase from another verse.
00:16:51It's still completely true.
00:16:53Both of those are written and they are both related to that stone.
00:16:57It's just an unusual thing that kind of makes people wonder, what is Paul really doing here?
00:17:03But both of those prophecies are about the same thing.
00:17:06So I think it's a perfectly legitimate way to do that.
00:17:10That he's creating an idea based on two separate prophecies and just using Isaiah's words, putting them together rather than
00:17:18coming up with his own words to say the same thing.
00:17:21All right.
00:17:22Hoping I'm making sense here.
00:17:24Let's see.
00:17:2532, 33.
00:17:27So the Jewish religious leaders, they had elevated the law above the lawgiver as if the law itself could make
00:17:35a person sufficiently righteous to merit eternal salvation, is what I was talking about earlier.
00:17:40And they expected a kingly Messiah in keeping with their pride.
00:17:45They thought that this temporary just condition where they were under Rome's thumb.
00:17:52This is a temporary thing.
00:17:53And when Messiah comes, he's going to crush the Romans and we're going to rule the world.
00:17:59So when the real Messiah came and he was humble, appeared to be poor, homeless, didn't carry a weapon around
00:18:08as far as we know, didn't fight anybody, didn't attack the Romans, and in fact was kind to the Romans.
00:18:15They despised this true promise Messiah because of that humility and his apparently humble station.
00:18:22And I think one of the problems that they had was that they were making the law itself the object
00:18:27of their lives rather than Messiah, rather than their relationship with God, which is what the covenant is for.
00:18:33The law isn't there to be the purpose of the purpose of the law is to help you live out
00:18:44the covenant, which is a relationship with God.
00:18:48I think in a few verses, when we get to the beginning of Romans 10, that's going to make more
00:18:54sense, I think.
00:18:55So making the Torah or the law the object of our lives, it's always going to lead to failure.
00:19:01And we should never try to keep God's law for the sake of the law itself or for the sake
00:19:07of any righteousness that it gives us, but rather for the sake of the one who gave the law.
00:19:13It's he gave it to us so that we could have a better life and more specifically, so that we
00:19:19could have a better relationship with him.
00:19:22And so if we're keeping it for our own sake, we're missing the point.
00:19:25The point is to enhance our relationship with our creator.
00:19:30And it's it helps us to become better children and better citizens of his kingdom.
00:19:37It can be a blessing and a guide for those people who keep it out of love for their creator.
00:19:43But it can be a curse and an obstacle for people who attempt to try to keep it selfishly or
00:19:49prideful.
00:19:50And I think that's how Yeshua was a stumbling stone to people.
00:19:55He was the suffering servant instead of the conquering king.
00:19:59They just he wasn't what they were looking for.
00:20:03So the purpose of the law is basically rules through which we are able to interact with Yahweh.
00:20:14If a king has a certain court etiquette, that's what you follow.
00:20:19Yeah.
00:20:19And the law has multiple purposes.
00:20:21It does help us to live a better life.
00:20:23It it it's a witness against our sins so that God can point to something written and say, here's what
00:20:31I told you to do and you didn't do it.
00:20:32And so here are the consequences.
00:20:35Right.
00:20:35But the most important part is to facilitate our relationship with our creator.
00:20:41And then the creator comes down and walks among us and we use the law to condemn him instead of
00:20:49using the law to become like him.
00:20:52Any other comments or questions on these verses?
00:20:55Yeah, I have a question.
00:20:56OK, sure.
00:20:58So, Jay, I was just when you were saying about keeping the law and yes, the law per se does
00:21:05not.
00:21:06The law is not making us righteous.
00:21:10It is our faith in Messiah.
00:21:11But after we are after we walk and after we believe in Messiah, we are keeping the law out of
00:21:21obedience to his instructions.
00:21:25Right.
00:21:25So, I was just connecting it when he speaks of the parable of the ten virgins and he says that
00:21:34the five were not prepared with enough oil to meet the bridegroom.
00:21:42And then there were five virgins who were prepared with the oil.
00:21:46So, I'm just wondering if that could be connected to the five virgins.
00:21:51Sorry, that was my phone.
00:21:53The five virgins who were ready and prepared with the oil were the ones who were trying their best to
00:22:02be prepared by keeping instructions and his commandments.
00:22:06Because when he arrived, he said that the five virgins would enter.
00:22:11But the other five virgins who were not keeping required commandments.
00:22:16Even though they were all together, the ten virgins were all together, but five were doing what he was saying
00:22:21and the other five were not doing what he was saying.
00:22:24So, I was wondering if that could be kind of a connection to what is being discussed here in terms
00:22:32of keeping his commandments and then inheriting his kingdom.
00:22:38Yeah, it's probably related.
00:22:40There are some aspects of that parable that I don't really understand.
00:22:43And it's probably a lot of it that I don't really understand.
00:22:46But if you look at how oil is used in scripture, it's usually about anointing and it's about spirit.
00:22:53So, it's possible that it really is talking more about the righteousness that Paul is describing that the Gentiles attained.
00:23:01They weren't looking for God's righteousness through the commandments, but then when they were presented with their guilt and this
00:23:09idea that they could be given a righteousness of Yeshua because of his sacrifice, or I'm not sure if that's
00:23:19the best way to describe it.
00:23:20So, maybe I should say it's like circumcision of the flesh versus circumcision of the heart.
00:23:28And keeping oil is like cultivating that circumcision of the heart.
00:23:34That's my suspicion.
00:23:36I haven't really put a lot of time into trying to understand that parable yet.
00:23:42And certainly didn't this week.
00:23:45What's that, Timothy?
00:23:46You're welcome.
00:23:47Ten virgins?
00:23:48Yeah.
00:23:49Yeah.
00:23:49Awesome.
00:23:50Shuba was asking about the...
00:23:53The oil versus the lamp?
00:23:56Yeah.
00:23:57And the idea that...
00:23:59I'm trying to go back to the original question.
00:24:02That when, before we come to faith in Yeshua, before we admit our guilt and submit ourselves to him, any
00:24:12obedience we have to the law might make for a better life, but it doesn't really give us any righteousness
00:24:18that amounts to anything.
00:24:19And it's only after we receive that imputed righteousness from Yeshua, that obedience to the commandments can really accrue anything
00:24:30useful for us.
00:24:31Then we can start building up some kind of righteousness that's going to last beyond, into eternity.
00:24:37And Shuba was asking if there's a connection between this idea and the parable of the ten virgins and the
00:24:43five who didn't keep oil in their lamp and the five who did.
00:24:47Yeah, right on.
00:24:48And...
00:24:48Oh, they got oil?
00:24:51No.
00:24:52By pressing the olives.
00:24:54Oil.
00:24:54So the oil would be the compression and the struggle between your fleshly desires and your declaring yourself dead to
00:25:07the...
00:25:08And walking out your faith and being faithful.
00:25:12And that faithfulness through the struggles and the trials are like the drops of the oil, oil as your...
00:25:18The lamp is, of course, the word.
00:25:21Yeah.
00:25:22And I think that's...
00:25:23People just have the law.
00:25:25They don't have any of that.
00:25:26Yeah.
00:25:27I think that's a lot like the construction of the menorah.
00:25:29That's just they didn't get to the wedding.
00:25:31In the construction of the menorah, it's a solid beaten piece of gold.
00:25:36In other words, it has to go through fire and trials and all kinds of hardship in order to become
00:25:41this pure source of life.
00:25:42And then the people have to provide pure beaten olive oil for the lamp.
00:25:48So there are two different sides of those, but both of them require pressure.
00:25:53Both of them are being subjected to stresses in order to create something pure and righteous.
00:26:02It doesn't come easy.
00:26:04All right.
00:26:04Are we ready to go on to chapter 10?
00:26:08I'll take that as a yes.
00:26:10Like having just the bread is not...
00:26:14Having the bread, which is the bread that symbolizes the word of God, isn't a life-giving thing.
00:26:19It points out our sin and it also gives us directives, but it doesn't provide life, whereas the blood does.
00:26:25Yeah.
00:26:27You have structure.
00:26:29You have the do's and the don'ts, but it's not until you have that desire that it really means anything.
00:26:39Exactly.
00:26:41Faithfulness.
00:26:42Yeah.
00:26:43A covenant with someone.
00:26:45We were talking about the ten virgins with the oil.
00:26:48That was the question that Cuba had.
00:26:53Yeah.
00:26:54Okay.
00:26:55Verses one through three.
00:26:57Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.
00:27:01Them being the Jewish people.
00:27:04For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
00:27:08For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's
00:27:13righteousness.
00:27:15And I think that's pretty much what we were just saying, that they had these commandments.
00:27:20They were certain that being born a Jew, being circumcised, doing all this stuff was making them righteous in God's
00:27:30eyes.
00:27:31And that's not without some reason, because all through scripture, keeping the commandments is described as being righteous.
00:27:39But it's not a righteousness that can earn you eternal salvation.
00:27:46There's nothing you can do to erase any failures in the past.
00:27:52You need divine intervention for that.
00:27:55So this pride of being a Jew and being obedient was getting in the way of being able to accept
00:28:01his humble Messiah.
00:28:02He was not what they were expecting.
00:28:04He was not a king who was going to set everything right and establish the law.
00:28:09His way of establishing the law was doing it and showing people what that means and teaching the deeper principles
00:28:17of it, rather than expounding on the details and writing commentaries, which is what every great theologian wants to be
00:28:26known for.
00:28:27That's just not who he was.
00:28:30And that was a stumbling stone, as Isaiah and Paul pointed out.
00:28:34And so when Yeshua presented this, the gospel to them, that the kingdom is here, and if you want to
00:28:41be part of the kingdom, then you have to admit that you're not good enough.
00:28:46And that was a serious problem for people who thought that because I'm a Jew, I'm good enough.
00:28:52Does that make sense?
00:28:54Yep.
00:28:55I can almost make it akin to the pride Americans have in our nation, in our culture.
00:29:03You can have the pride, but it's once you have an understanding of the cost, the appreciation for that, and
00:29:13a realization of the blessing that we have in comparison to many others, that's when it becomes the rubber meets
00:29:21the road.
00:29:22That's when it becomes meaningful to us.
00:29:24I've got a couple of passages here.
00:29:26Actually, three passages.
00:29:28Somebody wants to look these up.
00:29:31Multiple somebodies.
00:29:31So, 1 Corinthians 9, 20-22.
00:29:36I'll look up the Mark passage.
00:29:39I'll do Matthew.
00:29:40Okay.
00:29:42I'll do Corinthians.
00:29:44You said 9, 20-22?
00:29:47Oh.
00:29:47I'm sorry.
00:29:48I was in a second.
00:29:50One momento.
00:29:52Okay.
00:29:53To the Jews, I became a Jew in order to win Jews.
00:29:58To those under the law, I became as one under the law, though not being myself under the law, that
00:30:05I might win those under the law.
00:30:07To those outside the law, I became as one outside the law, not being outside the law of God, but
00:30:14under the law of Christ, that I might win those outside of the law.
00:30:17To the weak, I became weak, that I might win the weak.
00:30:21I have become all things to all people, that by all means, I might save some.
00:30:30Okay.
00:30:31Yeah.
00:30:31In Romans 10, Paul is saying his heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be
00:30:38saved.
00:30:40And maybe this is my lack of imagination, but I don't understand why someone would pray for someone to be
00:30:48saved when their salvation is already determined.
00:30:52Why would Paul say that my prayer for God is that they may be saved?
00:30:58God has already determined who is saved and who is not, so prayers are irrelevant.
00:31:03And maybe he could say my prayer is that God would use me in their salvation, and that would make
00:31:08sense.
00:31:09And that kind of goes into the first Corinthians passage, where Paul is saying, to the Jews, I became as
00:31:15a Jew, to the Gentiles, I became as a Gentile, or to those under the law, as one under the
00:31:21law, etc.
00:31:22And he's not saying that he was pretending to be a Jew or pretending to be under the law.
00:31:27He was customizing his presentation of the gospel to the people that he was presenting it to.
00:31:34And he was becoming relatable.
00:31:36Right.
00:31:37Yeah.
00:31:37Meeting them where they were.
00:31:39Yeah, this is one of those points that people will often go to, to counter Calvinism, to say, why do
00:31:44you need to convince anybody of anything if they are already saved?
00:31:49And the counter to that is that God uses people to do that.
00:31:53Now, why you would need to present the gospel in a way that's more relatable to people is another question.
00:32:01If everybody who's going to be saved is already saved or already determined to be saved, I don't really understand
00:32:07why Paul would do that.
00:32:10Why not simply go and present the gospel?
00:32:11Predetermine the person to go say that thing to that person.
00:32:14Yeah.
00:32:15Paul was predetermined to become as a Jew to the Jews so that the Jews would understand what he was
00:32:20saying, except that it doesn't depend on their understanding.
00:32:24It doesn't matter if you understand the gospel or not.
00:32:26You are saved or not saved by God's decree.
00:32:29Your understanding is irrelevant.
00:32:31Yeah, but go to missionaries and whether you agree with them or not, those that Judaize like the Indians and
00:32:41so forth, you could not present this concept that we have right now as the Bible.
00:32:50So in a relatable fashion, if you simply came out and said, this is what it says, you would have
00:32:57to basically become or relate to them something that they understood so that they could bridge the gap.
00:33:06Yeah, I agree.
00:33:08Yeah, I agree.
00:33:09And especially in something where your cultures are so foreign from each other, you have to go and live among
00:33:14them and you have to become like them in order to understand their culture so that you can then present
00:33:21the truth to them in a way that they understand.
00:33:23But if I understand the doctrines of Calvinism, they don't, they can't possibly understand.
00:33:31There is no way for an unregenerated person to understand the gospel until God regenerates them.
00:33:38And then they can understand no matter what their culture is.
00:33:42And so presenting the gospel in a way that is more relatable to people doesn't make any sense to me
00:33:49from a Calvinist viewpoint.
00:33:52Because they can't understand it, no matter how you say it.
00:33:55And so the way that Paul does this seems to be, seems to refute Calvinism to me.
00:34:02Go ahead, Kevin.
00:34:03I was hoping you'd raise your hand here.
00:34:06Oh, I'm teasing you a little bit, but I do appreciate it.
00:34:09And I was hoping to get some other input.
00:34:12Awesome.
00:34:13Yeah.
00:34:16It's all good, Jay.
00:34:18So he is talking to the Israel people, right?
00:34:22Like people that are, when it says them, or they may be saved.
00:34:27He's talking about his nation or his, the Israelites, the Israel people.
00:34:33Yeah.
00:34:33He's talking about the Jews of his day.
00:34:35Yeah.
00:34:35Yeah.
00:34:36Now, hopefully I didn't misunderstand, but when, and that's a good point that you made about prayer.
00:34:44Calvinist versus Arminianism, because if the Cal, like there are different sections of Calvinists
00:34:53that believe that you're damned to hell, like you are going, God specifically chooses people
00:35:03to go to hell.
00:35:05And there's a, there's a, there's a different group that believes God doesn't choose that
00:35:12you go to hell, but it's your own doing.
00:35:16Like you chose the wrong path and that's why you are, you're like, you didn't accept the
00:35:27forgiveness and the grace.
00:35:29And so there, there are different fractions within the, within Calvinism, but the way that
00:35:37I, the way that I come across the prayer for other people on a Calvinist mindset is we don't
00:35:46know who is saved.
00:35:47We have no idea who could be saved, right?
00:35:52We know our brothers, Christ.
00:35:53We think we know our brothers.
00:35:55Some could betray us like Judas, but for the most part, if I'm praying for someone, I have
00:36:04no idea who's chosen per se, right?
00:36:09The Calvinists believe people are chosen, but I don't know who's chosen.
00:36:14Therefore, we are still to pray for them.
00:36:19And I, again, I'm not a staunch Calvinist per se, but I, I am, I am looking at both sides
00:36:28and I do look at both sides and I think both sides have really good arguments and this has
00:36:33been debated throughout the whole time of history, but I'm not going to cause any division.
00:36:39What was that too?
00:36:40I said by wolves.
00:36:42By wolves?
00:36:45Yeah, like Paul was saying, be guarding yourself and all the flock among what the Holy Spirit
00:36:49has made you overseers to shepherd the assembly of the Almighty, which he acquired with the
00:36:53blood of his own.
00:36:54I have been knowing that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you, not
00:36:58sparing the flock.
00:36:59And from among your own selves, men will rise speaking things that have been getting twisted
00:37:03around to draw away disciples after them.
00:37:05Therefore, be keeping alert, remembering that night and day and for a period of three years,
00:37:10I did not cease to educate each one with tears.
00:37:11And now I commend you to the Almighty and to the word of his loving kindness, which is
00:37:15able to build you up and give you the inheritance among all those.
00:37:18And that's, that, that is, is what I'm saying is that whole realm of non-Sabbath keepers.
00:37:27It's like they're having a discussion in a sphere of the satanic kingdom of Rome.
00:37:33There's Sunday worshipers, anti-Semites, they typically have a really weird view of eternal
00:37:41torment and all this other stuff.
00:37:44When that, I thought we were supposed to set all that aside and just stick with this, stick
00:37:52with the scriptures where Yah says, anyone, the stranger coming in can be adopted into Israel
00:37:59and be one of the citizens of Israel and covenant with me and that he would be faithful to all
00:38:06people because he owns cattle on a thousand hills.
00:38:08He owns all the bees.
00:38:10I was just at a devotion today and I was looking at bees and birds because the birds and the
00:38:14bees, because I'm doing birds and bees stuff in my pasture and stuff.
00:38:18And so that's, that's why I get a little frosty, not at you, but just at the system that is,
00:38:27was
00:38:27built on, on, on anti-Torah keeping, anti-law, anti-covenant or what they call Old Testament,
00:38:36which is not even, which was a heritical term by Marcion, but they, but they built their
00:38:43whole theological systematic theology on vapor and vanity.
00:38:50And so that's why it's like to argue between these two kids in a, it's, it's kind of like
00:38:57going to jail and, and listening to prisoners argue the best way to thwart the law where
00:39:04this guy says, oh, this way.
00:39:05And this guy says, no, this way.
00:39:07You're both in jail.
00:39:08Well, I doubt I'll see Calvin in the kingdom or Jake, Mr. Arminian.
00:39:14Oh yeah.
00:39:15That guy.
00:39:16Yeah.
00:39:16He was a Calvinist light.
00:39:19Or Dar, or Darby or Schofield or King James with his.
00:39:24I don't know about any, I don't know about that specifically.
00:39:27And I doubt that Paul was, was thinking of this, the ideas behind Calvinism specifically
00:39:35when he was talking about the wolves who would come in.
00:39:38No, but the Gnostics introduced these foreign things.
00:39:42Yeah.
00:39:42And the Gnostics became the Manichians who is where Augustine came out of.
00:39:48And Augustine is the one, as far as I know, he was the first one to really codify these
00:39:53ideas that, that Calvin put into the five points.
00:39:57If that was Calvin who actually arranged it that way, I don't know.
00:40:00But Calvin got his doctrine from Augustine and Augustine, at least in my opinion, got his
00:40:07doctrines from a mix of Gnosticism, the Manichianism and, and scripture.
00:40:16Right.
00:40:17So he wanted that state, he wanted everybody to be at peace.
00:40:20So he only read Latin.
00:40:21Because they were at war.
00:40:22Yeah, I don't, as far as the prayer in the ideas that Calvin expressed, or the different
00:40:31factions of Calvinism express about how God chooses people.
00:40:35I do understand that, that most Calvinists or all Calvinists, as far as I know, believe
00:40:40that God uses people to, as a catalyst, I guess, to awaken people or to make them more
00:40:51malleable to the spirit.
00:40:52I don't really understand that exactly.
00:40:54Because somehow he uses people like missionaries to go and prepare the ground.
00:40:58And then he changes people.
00:41:00I don't, the logic doesn't really follow for me.
00:41:05I don't understand why.
00:41:08Because if God chooses who is going to be saved, then God can use whatever he means, whatever
00:41:13means he wants to use.
00:41:14If he wants to use missionaries to awaken those people to the truth, then that's how he does
00:41:21it.
00:41:21So, but from my understanding, the, one of the core ideas of Calvinism is the, what's
00:41:33it called?
00:41:34The depravity thing.
00:41:36Total depravity.
00:41:37Yeah, total depravity.
00:41:39That you cannot understand the gospel until God regenerates you.
00:41:46And then you're saved at that point.
00:41:48So you only understand the gospel after you've been regenerated.
00:41:52The logic behind the idea that God uses people to awaken people or to convince them to be
00:42:01regenerated.
00:42:03Just, I just don't understand it.
00:42:05It doesn't make any sense to me.
00:42:07And the idea of God choosing some for damnation or choosing some for salvation, there are only
00:42:13two states.
00:42:14You're either damned or you're saved.
00:42:16So if God chooses some for salvation, the rest are damned.
00:42:22God can't choose some for damnation or choose some for salvation and leave the rest to do
00:42:27their own thing.
00:42:28If he's making the choice, then he's deciding who's saved and who's damned.
00:42:33Yeah.
00:42:34But there's some that believe, and I may get this wrong because it's been a while, but there
00:42:40are some believe that God actually chooses you to go to hell.
00:42:46Like he chooses you.
00:42:48Yeah.
00:42:49I don't see the difference.
00:42:50Now, the other part is God has given everyone an opportunity to be saved through Christ and
00:43:02his death, burial, resurrection, and believing in him as the Messiah.
00:43:11And so there are people that say those people had a chance to come to the gospel, come to
00:43:20Christ, but they chose not.
00:43:24They chose not to, which, again, it's been a while, but the choice that they have, see,
00:43:36this is where it gets tricky.
00:43:37The choice that they choose not to.
00:43:39Yeah.
00:43:40What's the difference between choosing not to and choosing to?
00:43:43And so they say, it just gets, but see, I'm not into the titles as much, but when the
00:43:53scriptures speak about stuff, I could understand why there is a little confusion of the debates
00:44:00that we have here and there.
00:44:02But I do believe that most people have used it to cause a lot more division.
00:44:08One thing I love about the Reformed people is that they do believe in the Ten Commandments.
00:44:13They believe in keeping the Ten Commandments.
00:44:15The crazy thing is that they believe one commandment was changed because Christ resurrected on the
00:44:23Sunday.
00:44:24And so that makes no sense.
00:44:26And then they say the Lord's day is Sunday.
00:44:29But other than that, they agree with a lot of what Messianic people believe.
00:44:37About all on the Ten Commandments.
00:44:40Yeah.
00:44:41Their own interpretation of the Ten Commandments anyways.
00:44:44Yeah.
00:44:45I agree.
00:44:45That's the only one.
00:44:46Yeah.
00:44:46I really do appreciate a lot of Reformed theology teachers.
00:44:51And I think they get themselves into a lot of trouble when they try to fit everything
00:44:55into their system.
00:44:56They've decided that these couple of verses define everything else in scripture and then
00:45:03try to shoehorn everything into it.
00:45:04And I think they end up just splitting so many hairs and tying themselves up into theological
00:45:10knots trying to make everything fit.
00:45:12And it's just not that clear cut.
00:45:16And yeah, I think there are too many contradictions in scripture to Calvinism if you take the scriptures
00:45:24at face value.
00:45:25There are a few verses that sound like they're pretty hardcore Calvinist if you take them in
00:45:30isolation from everything else.
00:45:32But there's too much else that contradicts it for me to be able to accept it.
00:45:39I agree.
00:45:40It's dividing the word of truth, making sure that we're understanding his word correctly.
00:45:47There's a lot of people that read the Bible that butchered it.
00:45:51And so we want to be like Marines, make sure that we're understanding it correctly.
00:45:58And that's why we are here is to learn from each other.
00:46:05And hopefully the spirit is.
00:46:07Yeah, I agree.
00:46:09Timothy, you've got Matthew 23.
00:46:12Yep.
00:46:13All right.
00:46:14I'm your lamb, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her.
00:46:18How often I wish to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chickens under her
00:46:23wings.
00:46:24But you would not.
00:46:25See, your house is left to you laid waste.
00:46:28First, that's a quote, for I say to you, from now on, you shall by no means see me until
00:46:35you say, blessed is he who is coming in the name of Yahweh.
00:46:39That's from Psalm 118.
00:46:42Yeah.
00:46:43And there are two ways to interpret that last, that last verse, I think.
00:46:47From now on, you will, you will not see me until you say, blessed is he who comes in
00:46:51the name of Yahweh.
00:46:52He could be saying, you will not see me until the day that you do this and you will do
00:46:59that.
00:47:00Or he could be saying, you will not see me unless you do this.
00:47:05And it doesn't say unless, I mean, that in English, it could be interpreted that way, but
00:47:11it doesn't seem to be that way in Greek or Hebrew.
00:47:14So I think what he's really saying is that the same people who, or at least a remnant
00:47:20of those people who rejected him and refused to listen to him and allow him to gather them,
00:47:28they have been left desolate, but it won't always be so.
00:47:31There will be a remnant of Judah who will say, blessed is he who comes in the name of
00:47:37Yahweh.
00:47:38And for the moment, most of them are blind to that.
00:47:43And I, it's like Joseph when his brothers are in his court and he looks like an Egyptian,
00:47:49they have no idea who he is.
00:47:51And he's just this powerful Egyptian guy.
00:47:54And then he reveals himself and all of a sudden it's a beautiful family reunion.
00:48:00And I suspect it's going to be something like that, except maybe the order is reversed where
00:48:07or I suspect not the order is reversed.
00:48:10I suspect it's something like when Judah volunteers to give his life for his brothers, that's when
00:48:16Joseph reveals himself.
00:48:17And I think that's, what's represented by the Jewish people saying, blessed is he who
00:48:22comes in the name of Yahweh.
00:48:24It's like, we, we have, we don't know exactly who he is.
00:48:27We've been told some crazy stuff about this guy, but they will maybe start to look at that
00:48:33and say, maybe this is really the guy.
00:48:36And then he reveals himself and says, yep, here I am.
00:48:40I know being a little silly, but I think it's something like that.
00:48:45And that requires that remnant of Judah to be part of that in gathering.
00:48:49And of course, the majority of the in gathering, I think is from the nations, not from the native
00:48:54born Israelites, but there will be a, there will come a time where a significant remnant
00:49:00of Judah is, repents and they see Messiah.
00:49:07And that's really an answer to Paul's prayer.
00:49:10That's why I wanted to read it here is because this is what Paul is praying for, that it's
00:49:16my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved in the vast majority
00:49:21of Paul's generation is not included in that remnant.
00:49:25They are not saved in the vast majority of all Jews since then are lost.
00:49:30They're not saved either, but there is a remnant and it will be partly because of Paul's prayers
00:49:36and Paul's witness that they will be saved, that they will finally see Messiah for who
00:49:40he is.
00:49:42And they have to get past the church's distortions of Jesus first.
00:49:49Hopefully the church will help them do that.
00:49:52And I suspect that if that's going to be the case, then we are going to be instrumental because
00:49:58we are an in-between group.
00:50:01We are people coming out of the nations, being joined into Israel and starting to do things
00:50:07that the church sees as Jewish stuff, while the Jews see us all as Christians pretending
00:50:14to be Jews.
00:50:15I hope that God is able to use that someday to open up more eyes.
00:50:20And it would be awesome to see that in my lifetime.
00:50:22I know that there has been some awakening, all these Messianic Jewish congregations.
00:50:26Some of them are faithful and righteous.
00:50:32Some of them are still trying really hard just to be Jewish with some Christian trappings.
00:50:38And some of them are trying really hard to be Christian with some Jewish trappings.
00:50:42And I think both of those are still just as misguided as they used to be.
00:50:45They need to get off that fence and commit.
00:50:50Last passage here regarding verse 3, Mark 7, verses 9 to 13.
00:50:57He was also saying to them, you are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in
00:51:01order to keep your tradition.
00:51:02For Moses said, honor your father and your mother, and he who speaks evil of his father
00:51:05or mother is to be put to death.
00:51:07But you say, if a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help
00:51:11you is Corban.
00:51:12That is to say, given to God.
00:51:14You no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother.
00:51:17Thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down, and you do many
00:51:23things such as that.
00:51:24This is in reference to verse 3 here, where it says, for being ignorant of the righteousness
00:51:28of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
00:51:33You know, elevating this idea of being Jewish as the source of their salvation.
00:51:38And all of the distinctiveness, the distinctives of Jewishness, the kippah in, depending on which
00:51:45sect of Judaism, the curlicues and the black hat, or the kippah in the tallit, or if you're
00:51:54going to go with reformed Jews, then, you know, a rainbow tallit.
00:51:57All of these things, they believe, make them Jewish, which makes them saved.
00:52:03And these are all just barriers they put in front of themselves to keep them from understanding
00:52:09the real righteousness that comes through Yeshua.
00:52:12And only after you have your spiritual books wiped clean and zeroed out can then your following
00:52:22of commandments be of any real lasting value to you.
00:52:26And then, like what Timothy was saying earlier, then you got to set aside all this other crap.
00:52:31All these man-made traditions that are just confusing and barriers to real obedience.
00:52:39And those things will always be a barrier.
00:52:43Like the tradition that the thing that Paul fought all through his ministry was this party
00:52:48of the circumcision, you know, trying to get Gentiles who wanted to be followers of Messiah.
00:52:54You have to be circumcised and you have to follow this rule and go through all these 19 steps
00:52:58in to become Jewish.
00:53:00And then once you're Jewish, you'll be saved.
00:53:02But that's still trusting in ethnic identity for your eternal salvation and following in rules.
00:53:10And none of that was the point.
00:53:12They were still missing.
00:53:13We do that today.
00:53:15When you look at the Catholic Church, it's a number of traditions or a priesthood.
00:53:22We must be celebrated.
00:53:23But it's not limited to that.
00:53:25I've seen it in the Messianic community.
00:53:28And it's a pet peeve of mine.
00:53:30Whereby it's often an elder, somebody who espouses much knowledge, and everyone looks to them.
00:53:40What do I think?
00:53:41What do I believe?
00:53:42I love you, Jay, and I love the conversations you come up, but I'm not under you.
00:53:49You know what I mean?
00:53:50But many people would look to their leader and not appropriate for themselves, their thought
00:53:58process to basically establish who they are and what they believe and think.
00:54:04Now, listening to you or Timothy or Kevin or whomever and gleaning and saying, I like that.
00:54:13I'm going to incorporate that into my belief system.
00:54:16That's great.
00:54:17But y'all don't have all the answers.
00:54:20I need to work it out myself.
00:54:23So just from a preacher.
00:54:25Yeah, I had an instance lately where somebody went to one of the elders in our local community here and
00:54:31had some questions like, what do you all believe about this?
00:54:35What do you believe about that?
00:54:37And he wasn't really sure about some things.
00:54:39And we all have our strengths.
00:54:41We all have the things that we've really studied out and the things that we just don't know yet.
00:54:45And so he said, you need to talk to Jay about that.
00:54:49So this person texted me and said that I want to be sure that I'm not getting mixed up with
00:54:56false teachers and false prophets.
00:54:59So what does what do you as a fellowship believe about these things?
00:55:03And they gave me a list of questions.
00:55:05And my response was that we don't we don't dictate to everybody what they believe.
00:55:11We have a core set of beliefs.
00:55:14We believe in the God of Abraham.
00:55:16We believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, born of a virgin.
00:55:19He died and rose again.
00:55:22And you have to repent of your sins and submit to him for your salvation.
00:55:28And everything else is gravy.
00:55:30We don't exactly what calendar you follow exactly, you know, how you interpret this or that verse or the Trinity
00:55:39or something like that, the Trinity, the shape of the earth.
00:55:43I have some pretty strong beliefs about some of those things.
00:55:47But I'm not going to force that on other people in our fellowship.
00:55:50That's their business.
00:55:51And I don't think this person was very happy with that.
00:55:54They wanted to be told, this is what we all believe.
00:55:57And this is what you're all going to do.
00:55:59So I'm not going to be pinned down to that.
00:56:01You make up your own mind.
00:56:03How dare you?
00:56:05Yeah.
00:56:06How dare I let people have their own opinions?
00:56:09Go ahead, Kevin.
00:56:11That's a journey.
00:56:12I will even fellowship with Calvinists.
00:56:16So another thing is, like a lot of religions, they do believe, especially like Mormons and Catholics and all these
00:56:26other religions, do believe that there's this works-based righteousness where the more that I obey, I don't know if
00:56:37they think they're more saved or what.
00:56:39Like, I was talking to this Mormon guy who stopped by my house, was trying to sell me something.
00:56:47But I ended up talking to him about what his beliefs were as a Mormon and trying to get some
00:56:54information, just talking to him, having a good conversation.
00:56:57He enjoyed it.
00:56:58But he told me that he had no assurance of salvation.
00:57:03This is probably where we might get, I know, once saved, always saved.
00:57:08But it's like he had no assurance of his salvation.
00:57:13Like, he didn't know if he was saved or not.
00:57:15And he was just following the Mormon church and doing the things that the Mormon church tells him to do
00:57:24so he can one day enter the heaven.
00:57:28Yeah, it's been a long time since I read up on Mormonism.
00:57:33But there's some definitely, there's some weird stuff going on there.
00:57:38It's just, it's just the works-based righteousness.
00:57:41So it's, even in the messianic congregation, sometimes it feels, you know, okay, what if you don't do everything right
00:57:49on the Sabbath?
00:57:51Uh-oh.
00:57:52And it's, you can repent for what you do.
00:57:57And it's not the end of the world.
00:57:58And it just, sometimes it feels, sometimes it does feel like legalism.
00:58:06But, and I think you can find that in any sphere.
00:58:11But I just want to know what your take on.
00:58:15Yeah, and I just want to know what your take on.
00:58:17Because I know we probably disagree, like, but once saved, always saved.
00:58:21I have assurance of me being saved.
00:58:25Like, I don't have assurance of me knowing everything, what everything means in the Bible.
00:58:31That's something that I hope the Holy Spirit teaches me as I grow.
00:58:36But I don't doubt my salvation at all.
00:58:41And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on, because I know some people believe that you're not once saved,
00:58:49always saved.
00:58:50And so, therefore, how does one know that they're saved, have assurance that they're saved, and how do they go
00:58:57through life?
00:58:58Do they think, okay, if I keep the Sabbath every Sabbath, and I do all these other things, the Bible
00:59:07is clear that when we break one part of the law, we break every part of the law.
00:59:12And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on.
00:59:14And, yeah, like I said, I can tell you what I believe, which, if that's what you ask.
00:59:18I don't agree with what I understand of the idea of once saved, always saved.
00:59:25I don't think you can lose your salvation, like, accidentally, or just, like, have I done enough bad things to
00:59:33lose my salvation?
00:59:33I don't think that's a possibility.
00:59:36I think that you can't accept it, and you can reject it.
00:59:40And you can say, I am one of God's people, and I am repenting of my sins, and I am
00:59:48submitted to the king of Israel.
00:59:50He's my king.
00:59:52I worship the God of Abraham.
00:59:55And that is enough.
00:59:57God has promised that if you confess that you are a sinner, and you repent of those sins, and beg
01:00:05his forgiveness, you are saved.
01:00:08But if you then turn around and reject that and say, I'm not doing what he says anymore.
01:00:14I don't care.
01:00:15I don't like him.
01:00:16I'm going to go do my own thing.
01:00:18You haven't lost your salvation.
01:00:19You've rejected it.
01:00:22And I think you can be sure of your salvation because God keeps his promises.
01:00:27And that's good enough.
01:00:28I don't need to feel it.
01:00:30I don't need to necessarily know anything except this is what God said, and I believe him.
01:00:36And there will definitely be times when you don't feel saved.
01:00:40You don't feel like God is there.
01:00:43If you're believing that God keeps his promises, your feelings aren't really relevant.
01:00:47Does that make sense?
01:00:48Yeah, I really like that answer, the way you put it about the rejection.
01:00:53If someone could really just reject, oh, I reject it, reject Christ, and all this stuff.
01:01:02But I've been in a situation where I've sinned, and it hurt.
01:01:10It hurt.
01:01:10I went against my God, my Lord, and I disobeyed him.
01:01:17But it wasn't like I rejected him.
01:01:21It was more like I repented, and the word says what it says.
01:01:28And so I never rejected him.
01:01:34I think I need to modify that a little bit, because I don't think it needs to be necessarily a
01:01:39conscious rejection of God.
01:01:41It needs to be a rejection of who God is.
01:01:46And Scripture gives us a lot of information about God's character and what he expects of people.
01:01:52If I say, I am a disciple of Jesus, and I'm going to keep God's law, but then I don't
01:02:00actually, I just totally ignore what God said his law is, and I just make up my own stuff.
01:02:07I don't drink.
01:02:07I don't dance.
01:02:08I don't smoke.
01:02:09I don't gamble.
01:02:10And I do, I work on Saturday, and I take Sunday off.
01:02:14If I think, I don't, I'm not going to say that there, I'm not going to define a line and
01:02:20say, person who does this is saved, and a person who does that is not saved.
01:02:25But there is a point where if you are simply rejecting what God has said and replacing it with your
01:02:32own, well, do you, are you really trusting God?
01:02:37And it's not like an accidental, I did enough bad stuff because I'm weak and I misunderstood something that's, yeah,
01:02:44I know what the Bible says, but I don't agree with that.
01:02:47So I'm doing this other thing instead, and I convinced myself that that is the right thing.
01:02:52At some point, you've rejected God, even if you don't realize that's what you've done.
01:02:56There is, I can't really draw a hard, a clear line where that is.
01:03:03That's hard to define, I think.
01:03:05So it's probably not as clean an answer as you would like, not as clean an answer as I would
01:03:09like, but I hope it still made sense.
01:03:13Yeah, no, it all made lots of sense.
01:03:15I'm just, my main reason for bringing that up is because there's a lot of people that are working for
01:03:24their salvation.
01:03:24They're just working for it.
01:03:26The more I do, the more I do, the more saved I am.
01:03:30And I haven't talked to a woman in a long time, but he, it was very crystal clear to me
01:03:38that he was not assured of the salvation yet.
01:03:41He just was doing what he was told to do.
01:03:45Hopefully.
01:03:45Shoring it up.
01:03:48And there's all these other religions that believe in that too.
01:03:52And I think Christians, whatever you want to call it, but following Christ is not based on your works.
01:04:01It's based on what Christ did.
01:04:04Yeah.
01:04:04Yeah.
01:04:05So that it's just a, it's based on who you are to God and who he is to you.
01:04:10Right.
01:04:11Yeah.
01:04:12It is.
01:04:14Yeah.
01:04:14Catholicism is another one of those because of the, I think you mentioned that.
01:04:19The idea of days that you have to be at mass.
01:04:24I can't remember what the right term is for that.
01:04:27And there are sacraments.
01:04:29You have to go through these specific sacraments and you have to be baptized in the Catholic church.
01:04:35They've changed those rules here and there.
01:04:37And I think they have loosened some of that these days, but the very fact that they can change the
01:04:43rules and loosen or tighten them.
01:04:47Reveals them to be the fake rules that they are.
01:04:50And none of those things are going to make you more saved.
01:04:53You're either saved or you're not.
01:04:55You are, you're either going to live forever or you're not going to live forever.
01:04:59There's no in between, but there is a grain of truth in the idea that you can accrue righteousness because
01:05:06once you are gods, once you have that eternal salvation, you can do righteous deeds that are going to have
01:05:14value in eternity.
01:05:16I can't remember where it is.
01:05:17This talks about crowns that we're going to have in heaven or in eternity.
01:05:24I don't remember the exact word.
01:05:26And Yeshua talked about rather than worrying about gold and silver on earth, building, building wealth that's going to last
01:05:34into eternity.
01:05:35He's talking about the righteous deeds we do here.
01:05:38So it's not like they make you more saved or less saved, but they do add value to your eternal
01:05:44life.
01:05:45I don't understand how I don't know what that value is, but Yeshua said it.
01:05:50So I'm just going to have to trust that.
01:05:52Yeah, just like so many false doctrines, if they weren't based on some kernel of truth, then almost nobody would
01:06:00ever believe them.
01:06:01A couple of things I wanted to say about, especially about verse three here before we wrap up.
01:06:07Paul talks about being ignorant of the righteousness of God in seeking to establish their own.
01:06:13And we've been talking about the righteousness that does come from obedience, which has value after Yeshua's righteousness has been
01:06:21imputed to them.
01:06:22These are the two kinds of righteousness.
01:06:24The one of the God gives you what's the term not unmerited, but unobligated.
01:06:33He is not obligated to forgive you, but he said he will.
01:06:39And so he will.
01:06:39And he does.
01:06:41And so he takes Yeshua's righteousness, wipes out all your sins and counts Yeshua's righteousness as yours.
01:06:48And that has nothing to do with anything you've done other than committing to him, which means repenting of your
01:06:56past sins and submitting yourself to him.
01:06:58And now that puts an obligation on you for future behavior.
01:07:01But that's still not earning that forgiveness.
01:07:04It is responding to the forgiveness.
01:07:08But the Jewish religious leaders of Yeshua's and Paul's days, they had not only hid God's actual commandments from the
01:07:16people in favor of their own.
01:07:18But they were blind themselves to the nature of the righteousness that was brought by Messiah, this unearned, imputed righteousness
01:07:26that could remove sins and give them that perfect righteousness in God's eyes.
01:07:33And they could never receive that free gift of infinite righteousness until they acknowledged their inability to achieve it on
01:07:40their own.
01:07:40And as long as they were stuck in that mode of I'm saved, I'm righteous because I am one of
01:07:47the chosen people because I'm a Jew until they could get past that.
01:07:59In verses a little bit further down, Paul goes into a little bit more detail about both of these kinds
01:08:04of righteousness and the ignorance of the Jews about one, but their twisting of the other.
01:08:14Yeah, I don't think I don't think I really had anything except to reiterate that probably Christian churches from even
01:08:23before the end of the first century, this is just as much about them, especially churches like Catholicism, where because
01:08:34you have been baptized, you're sprinkled as an infant and you're baptized into the church.
01:08:40Now you're saved. Now you're saved. And it doesn't really matter. There are things you're expected to do, but because
01:08:47you were baptized, that's enough. Now you're one of the chosen people, other churches that don't smoke, don't drink, don't
01:08:56dance, and all this other stuff, thinking that they're making themselves holier by adding more commandments to what God has
01:09:02said, while ignoring the commandments that God actually said.
01:09:06And it's all just a legalistic vanity. Like, look how special and holy I am for making up all my
01:09:12own rules and ignoring God's. Aren't God's rules enough? Can we just do that and forget about all this other
01:09:19stuff?
01:09:20So the Jews aren't the only ones who do that. Obviously, probably every religious group does it. Probably something in
01:09:27human nature.
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