- 13 hours ago
In this conversation, the Common Sense Bible Study crew talk about what it means for the rejection of the natural branches of Israel to be a great blessing to the nations. What are the implications of God cutting some branches off and grafting others in? Once grafted in, can you be cut off again? Can the branches of Israel that were removed also be grafted in again?
From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.
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From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).
This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.
Follow me on X: https://jaycarper.com/twitter
Follow me on Facebook: https://jaycarper.com/fbat
Follow me on Whole Bible Community: https://jaycarper.com/ttn
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LearningTranscript
00:00:02all right welcome back to a journey through the book of romans we are in chapter 11 on verse 15
00:00:10as usual read a couple of verses before just to get some get our bearings but there's something
00:00:15i want to talk about before we get there stuff is good everything that god made is good but it
00:00:21has
00:00:21its purpose and it's easy to misuse everything i mean like paul said there's nothing that's
00:00:27unclean in and of itself it's what you do with it that makes it unclean um another thing i want
00:00:34to
00:00:34talk about that this is related to romans but before we get into reading chiastic structure of
00:00:39the book of romans i posted this in the portal a couple of weeks ago but i want to talk
00:00:43about it
00:00:44a little bit before we actually start reading and getting into the study i i've heard teachers say
00:00:50that out of all of paul's letters romans is the only one that wasn't written with a specific
00:00:58problem that paul was trying to solve galatians and ephesians philippians all of these books were
00:01:04written because paul had heard about some problem going on at that congregation and he was writing
00:01:10to help fix it but it's not true that romans wasn't written to address some problem it wasn't
00:01:16written just to give a treatise on salvation and how it how it all works that's not even the point
00:01:23paul talks about salvation and what it means in the course of talking about his real topic
00:01:28and his real topic is about the relationship between jews and gentiles in the same body
00:01:36so you can see here in this chiastic structure you know paul begins and ends with greetings
00:01:41hey i'm paul and here's who i am and at the end he gives all these greetings to and from
00:01:46people
00:01:48like say hi to this person this person says i you know welcome this person who's carrying this
00:01:54letter all that kind of stuff and then he talks about gratitude you know he never well rarely does
00:02:00he just jump right into his topic he's always introducing it in this case he introduces it and
00:02:05closes it with the same thoughts and then he talks about his desire to go and visit them both at
00:02:11the
00:02:11beginning at the end and at the beginning he's talking about what he wants to bring to them
00:02:15and at the end he's talking about what he wants to take away from them something that he wants to
00:02:21get out of business and but you know explains why that he hasn't been able to do that then he
00:02:28starts
00:02:28getting into the real purpose of the letter which is the jews and the gentiles trying to coexist in
00:02:34this same fellowship that when we began talking about romans we talked a little bit about the
00:02:41historical context and how the emperor had kicked the jews out somebody had come and established
00:02:47a congregation there in rome and in the middle of that the emperor had kicked all the jews out of
00:02:52rome
00:02:52and then later they were allowed to come back and so when they came back these gentiles had been
00:02:59there by themselves trying to figure all this out they still had probably a torah scroll and whatever
00:03:05other scriptures that the jews had left behind and they were trying to work out their salvation
00:03:11in this foreign culture i mean they they weren't jews they didn't grow up with torah and the prophets
00:03:17but then the jews came back and they brought back you know they came back with all of their knowledge
00:03:22in you know their cultural context and now you've got a culture clash the gentiles who have been
00:03:29developing their faith without the jews there and the jews who've had this faith all along
00:03:36and they're coming back and saying hey you guys are doing it all wrong and so paul is writing this
00:03:40letter to try to get them both to work in peace like you are all part of the kingdom you're
00:03:47all
00:03:47part of the body of messiah and you know here's what's important about your jewish heritage and
00:03:53here's what's important about what the gentiles are bringing and don't look down on each other no
00:03:58matter which side you're on and then we get into the middle of the letter where he's talking about
00:04:03our relationship to the law and you know this is probably the flashpoint that was creating such
00:04:10an argument between the jews and the gentiles and it is exactly the same today even among messianic
00:04:17congregations some messianic congregations are what you would call one law where jews and gentiles are
00:04:24essentially treated equally everybody's expected to keep god's commandments and there's really no
00:04:31difference between how a jew and a gentile would behave in that congregation excuse me other
00:04:38messianic congregations have some segregation maybe you have to be an ethnic jew to be in leadership
00:04:47or jews are expected to wear a kippah and a tallit and eat kosher you know gentiles you know if
00:04:53you
00:04:53want to keep the sabbath that's great if you want to eat kosher you can but you know you really
00:04:57don't
00:04:57have to and some congregations will even say that it's a sin for a gentile to keep the sabbath that
00:05:03that is only for jews and if you try to keep it you're stealing from you know whatever god has
00:05:07given
00:05:07them so this conflict that was happening in rome isn't a new was i mean it the conflict that we're
00:05:16experiencing between what we might call sunday christians and sabbatarians or antinomians and
00:05:23pronomians or you know whatever label you want to use it's not a new thing it goes all the way
00:05:28back
00:05:28to rome and probably before that and this entire book was written to address this conflict in this
00:05:35one congregation so i put an arrow on the screen to kind of point out where we are in this
00:05:40chiastic
00:05:41structure and we're on the second half the first half is mostly addressed to jews and now we're in the
00:05:50second half where we are talking about how the jews are still god's chosen people and even though god
00:05:54has pruned them and exiled them and given them this temporary blindness he still has a plan for them
00:06:02and he's going to restore them so it's really like the first half is addressed to jews saying don't look
00:06:08down on those gentiles second half is addressed to the gentiles saying don't look down on those jews
00:06:14and then that's surrounded by what sounds like small talk i want to come visit you you know i'm so
00:06:22grateful for this and you guys and oh by the way say hi to so and so so and i
00:06:28think keeping this in
00:06:28mind kind of how the book is laid out will help you not get lost in the weeds about what
00:06:36paul is really
00:06:36talking about trying to keep things in context so paul uses a lot of metaphors and sometimes he
00:06:43switches his metaphors around i'm sure you've heard of the concept of the law of first mention
00:06:49the law of first mention is a uh it's a rule for interpreting the bible that says
00:06:56the first time any word or idea is mentioned in scripture defines how that word or concept
00:07:04should be treated in the rest of scripture and it's not a scriptural law it's not a law of the
00:07:12universe that god has written it's more of a general principle it's not like god defined a word and then
00:07:19forced everybody to use a word in that particular way through the rest of scripture it's that the people
00:07:24who wrote the later scriptures had the the older ones and so they read those older scriptures and their
00:07:31language and terminology tended to be molded by what they read so later when if somebody is talking
00:07:40about say one person is talking about sitting under the shade of your own pig tree well we can go
00:07:46back
00:07:46to the prophets and see how that how that is used in the prophets and get an idea of what
00:07:51they're
00:07:51talking about paul was extremely well versed in the old testament scriptures in the tanah and
00:07:59according to traditions as a student of gamaliel he would have even had to have memorized the torah
00:08:05so things that are mentioned in the old testament are going to have a strong influence in how paul
00:08:13expresses himself but paul isn't locked into that he's not forced to use the same terminology in the
00:08:20same way all the time and he doesn't he frequently changes things around and you have to pay attention
00:08:26to the context because he will use a word in one way in one place and use the same word
00:08:33to mean
00:08:33something completely different in another place and the only way you know is by paying attention to the
00:08:38context and if you assume that the same word means the same thing all the time you're going to get
00:08:45paul so
00:08:46hopelessly mixed up it you're going to end up being an antinomian for one thing
00:08:52that is unfortunately what a lot of theologians in bible teachers have done is they have pleaded
00:08:58paul in such a systematic way that whenever he uses like the phrase law it must always mean the same
00:09:06thing but it's just not the way it is and we're going to see a metaphor he uses in this
00:09:14chapter
00:09:15the olive tree and he's using the olive tree in a particular way but you know trees and plants are
00:09:21used as metaphors other in other places in scripture and sometimes they're used to represent individual
00:09:27people sometimes they're used to represent the priesthood or the nation of israel and
00:09:34just because the root of one plant represents yeshua doesn't mean that the root of another plant in
00:09:41another metaphor in another place in the bible represents yeshua so you have to be careful with
00:09:46those metaphors and always read them in context and understanding you know looking at a chiastic
00:09:52structure like this looking at this outline it helps you understand what paul's point was why was he
00:09:58writing and when you know why he's writing that helps you keep all of his metaphors and all of his
00:10:03arguments in the context in which they were written instead of trying to apply them
00:10:09everywhere in every context hopefully you've been along with me long enough in romans that
00:10:14that makes that makes sense it doesn't just seem like random disconnected thoughts
00:10:22or too much caffeine whichever all right so let's get started with the reading here and i'm going to
00:10:29start reading in verse 13 and i'll probably just read to the end of the chapter so now i am
00:10:35speaking to
00:10:36you gentiles in as much then as i am an apostle to the gentiles i magnify my ministry in order
00:10:41somehow
00:10:41to make my fellow jews jealous and thus save some of them for if their rejection means the
00:10:46reconciliation of the world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead if the
00:10:51dough offered as first fruits is holy so is the whole lump and if the root is holy so are
00:10:56the branches
00:10:57but if some of the branches were broken off and you although a wild olive shoot were grafted in
00:11:02among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree do not be arrogant toward
00:11:07the branches if you are remember it is not you who support the root but the root that supports you
00:11:13then you will say branches were broken off so that i might be grafted in that is true they were
00:11:18broken
00:11:18off because of their unbelief but you stand fast through faith so do not become proud but fear for
00:11:25if god did not spare the natural branches neither will he spare you note then the kindness and the
00:11:31severity of god severity toward those who have fallen but god's kindness to you provided you
00:11:36continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off and even they if they do not continue in
00:11:42their unbelief will be grafted in for god has the power to graft them in again for if you will
00:11:47were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated
00:11:52olive tree how much more will these the natural branches be grafted back into their olive tree
00:11:58lest you be wise in your own sight i do not want you to be unaware of this mystery brothers
00:12:02a partial hardening has come upon israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in
00:12:08and in this way all israel will be saved as it is written the deliverer will come from zion and
00:12:14he
00:12:14will banish ungodliness from jacob and this will be my covenant with them when i take away their sins
00:12:20as regards the gospel yeah sorry i thought i missed the line as regards the gospel they are
00:12:25your they are enemies for your sake but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their
00:12:30forefathers for the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable for just as you were at one time
00:12:36disobedient to god but now you have received mercy because of their disobedience so they too
00:12:42have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy
00:12:47for god has consigned all to disobedience that he may have mercy on us all oh the depth of the
00:12:54riches and wisdom and knowledge of god how unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable
00:12:58his ways for who is known the mind of the lord or who has been his counselor or who has
00:13:04been given a
00:13:05gift to him that he might be repaid for from him and through him and to him are all things
00:13:10to him be
00:13:11glory forever amen all right so just to recap on verses 13 and 14 see we talked about magnify how
00:13:22that doesn't mean to make it look bigger than it is it means to actually make it bigger to make
00:13:28it
00:13:28successful and his purpose in trying to make his mission to the gentiles successful was in order to
00:13:36make the jews jealous and bring them to repentance i think i mentioned before that paul was a an apostle
00:13:43in the same pattern as jonah that jonah was sent by god which is what an apostle is he was
00:13:51sent by god
00:13:51to gentiles but he didn't want to go he wanted to go to the jews which is exactly what paul
00:13:57did he
00:13:57didn't want to go to the gentiles he wanted to go to the jews but the jews rejected him just
00:14:03like
00:14:03the boat that jonah fled from nineveh in that boat rejected him and so he was thrown into the seas
00:14:11which represents the nations just as paul was thrown into the nations to evangelize the gentiles
00:14:18but where they differ is that jonah was resentful the whole time he went and did what he was supposed
00:14:23to do but he hated it because the assyrians nineveh was the capital of assyria they were the enemies of
00:14:30israel and he didn't want them to repent he wanted them to to suffer whereas paul he goes
00:14:38full bore takes on his mission with his whole heart because he knows that the faster the gentiles
00:14:45come in the faster we can get to the end where the jews will repent and be restored also so
00:14:53if jonah had seen his mission that way like let's go and bring the assyrians to repentance and israel
00:15:00will benefit from this too maybe we can be friends probably the ending of jonah would have had a
00:15:06happier the ending would have had happier ending okay i should have thought that one through all
00:15:12right so let's let's get into today's reading or if their rejection means the reconciliation of the
00:15:18world what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead if the dough offered his first fruits is
00:15:24holy so is the whole lump and if the root is holy so are the branches okay in this verse
00:15:31if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world i kind of already gave this away but what does
00:15:38it mean for the rejection of the jews to be the reconciliation of the world well he's talking
00:15:43about their repentance if the jews reject their messiah you know paul is tasked with taking the
00:15:49messiah out to the gentiles which is the reconciliation of the world and this implies that the world was
00:15:54once one with god and that's true because adam was the world at one time adam was the only person
00:16:00he
00:16:00was all of mankind and he walked with god in the garden and so the goal ever since then is
00:16:06to play out
00:16:08this plan to bring the messiah into the world so that the whole world can be reconciled again with god
00:16:15now that doesn't mean that the entire world like every person in the world will be reconciled
00:16:21you know i've mentioned this several times before but paul uses a lot of categorical sounding statements
00:16:27that he doesn't mean to be taken as categorical so when he says the rejection of the jews means the
00:16:34reconciliation of the world he doesn't mean the entire world and every person in it he means that
00:16:42you know humanity will be reconciled with god because there will be a lot of people who repent and
00:16:48are united with israel united with messiah then the other half of this what will their acceptance mean
00:16:54but life from the dead this is i always i always mispronounce it valkomer is that right
00:17:03a light and heavy argument like if this light thing is true then this heavy thing must be true
00:17:07also and paul uses that a lot in all of his letters and especially in romans and the idea is
00:17:12that you
00:17:13know if if the jews are god's people and god's temporary repudiation of them means blessings for the
00:17:22whole world then when god accepts israel back when they repent and are restored won't that be even
00:17:30better for the world now it's not really a logical argument because it you know it following a logical
00:17:36argument it doesn't really make sense it's a it's more of a spiritual sort of thing it's a very common
00:17:45jewish kind of argument that's light and heavy thing and it's not logical in the bare words because paul is
00:17:53leaving out a lot of the argument it's only true if you already understand that the jews remain god's
00:17:58people throughout and that it was always true that gentiles could be grafted into israel there was
00:18:06never a time i mean as long as israel has existed there's never been a time where if a gentile
00:18:11didn't
00:18:12come to israel and say i want to worship your god and keep his commandments that he couldn't become an
00:18:18israeli scripture calls caleb a kennethite and we've talked about ruth and or not yeah ruth and
00:18:28rahab before as other examples of foreigners who became israelites and they did so primarily through
00:18:34repentance and embracing israel's god and so in in this old paradigm when the old covenant was all that
00:18:44we had if it was true that a gentile could become part of israel and be reconciled to god through
00:18:51repentance and obedience how much more will they be reconciled to god when everything is in order in
00:18:59israel instead of in chaos and when you realize that this argument makes so much more sense now it has
00:19:08a
00:19:08logical structure around it it's just that paul doesn't spell it out so he's so clearly he's kind
00:19:13of expecting people to fill in the gaps i think um this is a uh a prodigal son type of
00:19:24a situation
00:19:24in that those jews that reject him they're basically going back to the world they're living in pig troughs
00:19:32and should they reconcile and return they're basically coming back into the fold if you will
00:19:39meanwhile you have gentiles that can come into the fold as well so if something happens while they're
00:19:47in the pigsty then so be it you know the landscape the landscape has changed a little bit but it's
00:19:53still
00:19:53the same the same the same structure that they left yeah all right so then we get into another metaphor
00:20:02but actually but go ahead jim okay the the the gentiles were considered dead because
00:20:14they were living without the father so if you don't have him in your midst
00:20:23you're considered dead you're considered dead so you're spiritually dead yeah so if the um the jews
00:20:34know if they accept because they started to reject god by turning to the same idols that the gentiles
00:20:46were worshiping so if they really walk according to their calling those that are dead
00:20:56will it's going to be more for the kingdom because those that are dead by seeing you walking upright
00:21:08they become affiliated with the things that concern god so it's more for them you plus the gentiles
00:21:20so who was there is the there that is referred to in 13 the jews or the gentiles i took
00:21:27it as the jew
00:21:28okay what i'm saying is that the jews rejected god and god thought well what i said thorn he shouldn't
00:21:42have said thorn he he he brought in the gentiles right and as as as jay mentioned about ruth and
00:21:53and
00:21:55what's what's what's her name well right these are people that were not supposed to be part of
00:22:03the the the the um jewish heritage but because of their belief in what god has to offer them
00:22:14they become connected to him but when the jews reject god and he turns the gentiles right
00:22:24is going to take time now because they've got to be reconciled unto god because thus the word
00:22:30said that is now meant for none to be put to be lost rather than having their rejection
00:22:37to bring in the the gentiles um to be accepted it will be the jews they're following after the calling
00:22:49that they had and the gentiles seeing their walk joined with them is going to be more for the kingdom
00:22:59so it's not going to be reconciliation to the world because of the rejection of the jews
00:23:07it's going to be a reconciliation of the world because the jews are following the principles of god
00:23:14yeah because they're already dead because they're spiritually separated from god yeah that's a good
00:23:20point i want to i want to read you something from micah this is a prophecy about when is when
00:23:28israel
00:23:28is reconciled when israel has been restored it says but at the ends of days the mountain of adonai's
00:23:34house will be established as chief of the mountains and will be raised above the hills peoples will flow up
00:23:39to it then many nations will go and say come let us go up to the mountain of adonai to
00:23:45the house of
00:23:45the god of jacob then he will direct us in his ways and we will walk in his paths for
00:23:50torah will go forth
00:23:50from zion and the word of adonai from jerusalem he will judge between many peoples and decide for
00:23:56mighty nations far off and they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning
00:24:01shears nation will not lift up sword against nation nor will they learn war again but each man will sit
00:24:08under his vine and under his fig tree with no one causing terror for the mouth of adonai tsevaot has
00:24:12spoken though all the peoples will walk each in the name of his god we ourselves will walk in the
00:24:17name
00:24:18of adonai elohenu forever and ever that's tree of life version in case you were wondering and along with
00:24:25what june is saying if you know the reason that that paul is being sent out to the to the
00:24:31gentiles is
00:24:32because the jews have mostly rejected the gospel and this isn't a good thing it's really more
00:24:39you know paul's mission to the gentiles is kind of a reaction somebody's going to listen you know like
00:24:45what what the prophet says you know if if these people won't cry out or what yeshua says if these
00:24:51people won't cry out even the rocks and the trees will cry out and so somebody has to react to
00:24:57the
00:24:57gospel if the jews aren't going to do it the gentiles will but that's not the way that god wants
00:25:02to do
00:25:03it he wants to reach the nations through israel is supposed to be a nation of priests or a kingdom
00:25:10of
00:25:10priests and when israel is restored when they are repented and brought back to the land and they're
00:25:16functioning as they're supposed to function they operate as a nation of priests to the whole world
00:25:22bringing god's law and the good news of the kingdom out to all peoples and that's the way it's supposed
00:25:29to work instead of just one or two men you know going out and traveling around the roman empire
00:25:34in small groups preaching to one congregation at a time it's the whole nation going out to spread the
00:25:41gospel to the world actually i'll give you an example of uh of the jews going into the world and
00:25:48becoming lost and later on they're being lost in the world is springboarding some to return i have a
00:25:58cousin he did a dna test and he was proud as could be he has no spirituality whatsoever but he
00:26:05was so
00:26:06proud of the fact that there's there are a number of jews in his ancestry and you know what he
00:26:12does with
00:26:12that probably nothing but there are some that may take that banner up and because of their heritage
00:26:20explore that in return so you know there's a there's a you know dormant seed type of concept
00:26:28in those that were rejected unfortunately it's not manifesting until centuries later but
00:26:33it's still uh you know the dispersal or the dispensation if you will of the jews into the into uh
00:26:41the world
00:26:41still looks like it could uh manifest with some uh some people returning looking to their roots so to
00:26:49speak yeah and that is another way that the well that's one way that their rejection means reconciliation
00:26:55for the world because their rejection causes them to be exiled and scattered which plants these seeds
00:27:01that then can sprout in the world and bring people to messiah that's why it has in um
00:27:08is in second not kings um the second not chronicle ah gosh the second um is chronicle is chapter 7
00:27:24verse 14 says
00:27:25it's my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face
00:27:36and turn from the wicked ways then i will answer the prayers and heal the land
00:27:43because his people which is israel became an abomination unto him
00:27:51he said but i will heal the land if you turn from your wicked ways and pray and seek my
00:27:58faith
00:27:59yahweh wanted his people to turn to him yep yeah that is second chronicle 7
00:28:07all right we ready to talk about dough dough and branches though paul is mixing some metaphors here
00:28:15the dough offered his first fruits is holy i don't know exactly what he's talking about here unless this
00:28:24has something to do with the uh uh with a grain offering or the uh 12 loaves that were on
00:28:31the
00:28:31showbread table i'm not really sure i don't you know i don't know what the source of that analogy is
00:28:38if that would have meant something back then i'm not really sure but the dough that's offered as
00:28:44first fruits what is the dough i mean what is this a metaphor of any thoughts i'm loving bread maybe
00:28:53how would that fit into this context paul is suggesting it could be yeshua okay yeah but in
00:29:02this context the rejection of the jews bringing reconciliation of the world and their acceptance
00:29:09bringing life from the dead in that context what would dough offered as first fruits being holy
00:29:15making the whole lump holy what would that mean not the literal meaning of dough and first fruits but
00:29:22what is he no but i i well first fruits would have to do with yeast and if you have
00:29:28a yeast in a lump
00:29:30it's going to be going throughout so maybe he's making a reference as to how
00:29:36somethings are spread maybe could be but yeshua was offered as yeah he was yeah scripture does say
00:29:45that he's the first fruits of the resurrection which you know he's talking about life from dead so
00:29:50where's that connection well if he's holy and we are in him the entire the entire lump is going to
00:29:59be
00:29:59holy because of being in him and the root is a father the father is holy the root is what
00:30:08give life to the branches
00:30:10through yeshua so we who are attached to yeshua we become holy because the holiness that sap
00:30:22comes from the root unto the divine to us to bring holiness unto us through yeshua who is righteous
00:30:32yeah i think that that is definitely true um i don't think that's what paul is saying i mean i
00:30:37totally agree
00:30:38with the way with what you're saying i don't think that that's what paul is meaning by this metaphor though
00:30:43well the metaphor is in the midst of a reference to the jews so is it possible that the doe
00:30:50are the jews
00:30:51and that the intent was for these people to be a first fruit under the world and thus
00:31:00you have through their existence given a gateway of uh to him somehow i don't know
00:31:10yeah i think you're on the right track there in my opinion i mean i i'm not saying that anybody
00:31:16is
00:31:16necessarily wrong here because i don't know for sure but my current opinion is that he means one
00:31:21of two things he's either saying that the patriarchs of israel are the first fruits and therefore the
00:31:28whole nation is holy you know because god made a promise to abraham therefore all of these descendants
00:31:34are holy even if they're apostate at the moment god is still reserving them as his people
00:31:39that could be one meaning another meaning could be that the believing jews since if you think about
00:31:48the way that god took first fruits out of the world he took his people as the first fruits out
00:31:54of egypt
00:31:55you know he said this is my firstborn which is analogous to the first fruits and then out of israel
00:32:03he took the firstborn he took the firstborn of all the tribes and then he took levi as a substitute
00:32:09for those firstborn and then he took aaron and his sons as a first fruits out of levi you know
00:32:16these
00:32:17smaller and smaller pieces but israel was holy because aaron was holy and they had the high priest
00:32:23in the middle so as long as they were following the priest and doing keeping god's law according to how
00:32:29he taught then the whole nation was holy and israel intended to be a kingdom of priests
00:32:38israel being the first fruits if they go out to the world in the way that they're supposed to
00:32:43this core of a holy people makes the whole world holy if they're doing what they're supposed to do
00:32:51and taking the censor out into the people when the plague is coming you know to divide the you know
00:32:56separate the living from the dead and holy from unholy okay is there not that concept and is there
00:33:03not that concept in like a marriage whereby you are able to redeem your spouse or exactly yeah you
00:33:11want to go ahead and look that up it's first corinthians 7 13 and 14 first corinthians 13 if any
00:33:19woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consents to live with her he would not she should
00:33:25not
00:33:25divorce him for the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife and the unbelieving wife is
00:33:31made holy because of her husband otherwise your children would be unclean but as it is they are holy
00:33:39right yeah and i don't i don't understand exactly how that works i don't know how an unbelieving
00:33:46husband is sanctified by his believing wife or vice versa i've never understood it and i don't understand it
00:33:53now except that in the sense of god's judgment if you think about the hebrews being in goshen
00:34:01in most of the plagues you know the 10 plagues in exodus the first three hit everybody alike i think
00:34:08but after that god started separating in the israelites were mostly spared those plagues
00:34:13if you were in egypt i mean if you were an egyptian living in goshen you would have been spared
00:34:19most of
00:34:20those plagues right along with the hebrews so if you are the unbelieving spouse of a believer
00:34:27and your house is spared god's judgment because of your believing spouse then in a sense you are set
00:34:34apart from the rest of the world because of your spouse and you are spared some of that judgment
00:34:39doesn't mean that you're saved doesn't mean you've got eternal salvation but it does mean that you are
00:34:45treated a little bit differently by god something like ruth and naomi yeah something like that it's
00:34:53because ruth was attached to naomi and god was looking after naomi then therefore he looked after
00:34:58ruth too but of course ruth had her own faith she didn't just hang around with naomi but she was
00:35:05faithful to naomi's god which is going further and ideally that's what happens you know if you stick
00:35:11with your unbelieving spouse and they're willing to stick with you ideally they would eventually come
00:35:17around there's no guarantee in fact in like two verses later paul even says that or do you know a
00:35:24wife how do you know a wife whether you will save your husband or how do you know a husband
00:35:28whether
00:35:28you will save your wife you don't but you're definitely not going to save them if you if you leave
00:35:33or you know if you kick them out uh yeah simply being faithful to that person increases the odds that
00:35:42you or they depending on which direction the relationship is going will eventually become
00:35:47faithful to god also yeah i guess conceptually if you look at the apostles they were set apart
00:35:55they were set apart even at the last supper when judas betrayed yeshua so judas is evil within that
00:36:03within that group of people did not lessen their importance nor their uh their salvation if you
00:36:10will i guess i know that's the right word but just because you had one apple in the bunch did
00:36:15not
00:36:15corrupt the whole bunch well in a sense their holiness rubbed off on him too because when
00:36:23yeshua sent them out on their mission trips we have no indication that miracles didn't follow
00:36:29judas just like they followed everybody else you know he says that he sent them out in pairs to you
00:36:35know go to all the towns of the jews and everywhere they went the you know the sick were healed
00:36:40and
00:36:40demons were cast out it doesn't say that didn't happen for judas i guess you could make that same
00:36:47assertion to the modern day church even if they're not sabbath keeping churches and that you've got a lot of
00:36:55wacky stuff out there yet there's still people that come to the lord even despite that
00:37:03craziness that can go on in those type of situations yeah very true these studies always
00:37:09go somewhere i wasn't expecting but if some of the branches were broken off and you although a wild
00:37:14olive shoot were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree
00:37:19do not be arrogant toward the branches if you are remember it is not you who support the root but
00:37:24the root that supports you now just to you know consider the verses before in verse in verse 17
00:37:35the branches that were broken off these are the jews of paul's day and remember that the term jew
00:37:41the way that paul uses it doesn't refer to the tribe of judah or even necessarily to the kingdom of
00:37:46judah
00:37:46it refers to all of the people who knew that they were israelites who were conscious of it
00:37:51and followed the religion of the jews that's how paul uses that word so the branches broken off
00:37:58refers to the jews who didn't believe then in verse 16 who can the branches be but the jews and
00:38:07so the
00:38:07root being holy probably refers to the patriarchs probably but not yeshua i don't think so not in this
00:38:17case because if yeshua was the root of those branches they would be saved so he's talking
00:38:24about jews who didn't believe they're the ones who are being broken off well they were they were
00:38:30never joined to yeshua anyways so they couldn't have been broken off yeah but it's not the root
00:38:36supporting the remain the people that remain not the broken off branches yeah but it did support those
00:38:42branches otherwise they couldn't have been broken off well it supported them until they were broken
00:38:47off yeah that's what i'm saying is that they never believed in yeshua so i don't think that yeshua can
00:38:54be the root in this particular analogy and you know the other things that we've said talking about using
00:39:00this root branch and vine or whatever analogy to talk about yeshua and how we draw our sustenance from
00:39:08him and we are united with him that is all true and if this is referring to the idea that
00:39:15the root of
00:39:17israel making the branches making gentiles the nations holy that's also true it just doesn't seem
00:39:27to be what paul is trying to say with this particular analogy otherwise it doesn't really fit with the next
00:39:33verse so some of the branches were broken off these are jews and some of them means not all jews
00:39:41rejected
00:39:41the messiah many of them did believe we know that even many of the priests believed i think that's in
00:39:47act six or seven where it talks about how many of the priests in jerusalem came to faith in yeshua
00:39:53and all these arguments that we have a record of in the new testament between paul and uh what we
00:40:00sometimes call the judaizers or the the party of the circumcision these were all in-house arguments
00:40:07these were all believers this wasn't these weren't arguments between unbelieving jews and believing jews
00:40:14these were arguments between two different groups of believing jews and i think that's just important
00:40:21to keep in mind that some of the branches were broken off not all of them and james a conceptual
00:40:27question reject israel totally yeah go ahead if you're using the analogy of grafting in or a scion
00:40:35that analogy requires there to be damage to the original plan right yeah in order to graph something
00:40:44in you have to lose you it's the last one sorry
00:40:51i don't know if there's anything going on on my end okay did i lose my internet connection
00:40:57oh there we go no yeah i don't know if i lost you or you lost me i don't know
00:41:03what to happen there
00:41:03okay i'll restate it if you're using the concept of a scion that analogy requires there to be damage to
00:41:12the original structure or plan yeah is that world yeah in in the real world is that and in in
00:41:20for all
00:41:20practical purposes that's what happened with israel i mean with with the jews or israel is you had a
00:41:26breaking away but let's say you never had a breaking away and the perfect will will was was uh realized
00:41:33and the jews were the uh the light under the world and yada yada could there be this concept of
00:41:42grafting in without there having been some sort of damage or some sort of uh i don't know if my
00:41:49question is clear or not but yeah i know what you're talking about yeah it's a question of whether
00:41:54does the breaking off of one branch create the cutting for the cut where you graft in the new branch
00:42:00right right and i don't think so you know for one all goes on to say that one can graft
00:42:07those
00:42:08natural branches right back in again and nobody's being broken off so that they can be grafted in
00:42:14so i don't think it's that the branches were broken off in order to graft in the new branches
00:42:20it's that the breaking off of those branches caused a series of events that then prompted new
00:42:26branches to be grafted in so can a scion take place without that though well not without some
00:42:32kind of cutting in the bark i mean you don't have to cut a limb off but you do have
00:42:36to cut
00:42:36cut piece of the bark you know you do have to make some kind of cut in the bark to
00:42:40graft something in
00:42:41and and obviously issue would be the cutting the ultimate cutting so yeah i guess conceptually it could
00:42:48take place yeah yeah i i think we're in danger of taking the analogy too far but but yeah i
00:42:56mean
00:42:56there there did have to be bloodshed or nobody would be grafted in and all of the natural branches
00:43:02would be broken off and never grafted in because there'd be no tree left to to live yeah the whole
00:43:09tree would just wither and die yeah i think the idea is that in the ideal world if none of
00:43:16those
00:43:16branches were broken off god would still be able to graft wild branches in among them uh it says in
00:43:24the next
00:43:24part um that you although a wild olive shoot were grafted in among the others not instead of the
00:43:31others or in place of but among them so some were broken off but the new ones aren't grafted in
00:43:38to
00:43:39replace those that are broken off they're just in history those broken off branches cause a cascade
00:43:45of events that allow the new ones to be grafted in yeah it's it's the metaphor just breaks down the
00:43:52more your stuff you try to fit into it yeah he tried to fit a lot into this i mean
00:43:57he could have
00:43:58made it much simpler i think well that's paul for you yeah he his pattern is that he switches metaphors
00:44:06in the middle of a sentence and never fills in all the gaps he just expects you to know all
00:44:13the
00:44:13scriptures and know half of his argument without him explaining it to you paul thought everybody went to
00:44:19damaliel to teach them it's like i think they speak cajunese paula said something and i think
00:44:27it's one of those things where i'm missing something i'm missing half the argument but it's like
00:44:33expecting you to speak cajunese oh okay i got it yeah she says it's like her expecting me to speak
00:44:38cajunese like when she says something to me like are you getting down and i think she's talking about
00:44:45dancing i'm like no i'm just sitting here what do you mean yeah you go funky town right yeah and
00:44:52what
00:44:52she really means is are you getting out of the car to come into the store okay oops yeah so
00:44:59we're
00:45:00grafted in among the others and now share the nourishing root of the olive tree yeah and the
00:45:05olive tree in this metaphor is israel this is the nation of israel so the individual branches are
00:45:11individual people these are you know whether jew or gentile or whatever these are grafted into the
00:45:17tree of israel and you can't be grafted into a tree without becoming part of that tree you know the
00:45:24process of grafting a scion into a branch or into onto a trunk or whatever it is those two things
00:45:32merge
00:45:33the two organisms merge and become one they you know they grow um i can't remember what they're called
00:45:39the like the veins in a tree that they carry nutrients back and forth the branch sends those
00:45:45up into i mean the trunk sends those up into the new branch and the branch is sending them down
00:45:49to
00:45:50the trunk so that pretty soon they're intertwined and you can't take the one out again without killing
00:45:56it or breaking something and so if a gentile is grafted into the tree of israel that gentile becomes
00:46:05israel it doesn't mean that their dna has changed and they become a native israelite and there's still
00:46:12some differences there but it does mean that they've become part of the nation or the commonwealth
00:46:17of israel is another word that another phrase that paul uses i think that one's in ephesians that he uses
00:46:23that one and this sharing in the nourishing root of the olive tree i think paul is beginning to take
00:46:29his metaphor a little bit too far there but the nourishing root of the olive tree is in this
00:46:35metaphor the patriarchs you know or the promises maybe that god gave to the patriarchs you know the
00:46:42promises that include the land and the covenant and the messiah and all of these things that come
00:46:48along with it everything all the blesses and the commandments and the curses even that make israel
00:46:54god's people these are the things that are now nourishing that olive that wild olive branch that
00:47:00has been grafted in and i know that probably everybody in this conversation by now knows that
00:47:08our local congregation here is called wild branch community we used to be brenham torah community
00:47:13which was very descriptive told people exactly well if you knew what the words meant it told you who we
00:47:20were and what we were about but it sounds very foreign and using a name like wild branch community
00:47:28gives a packs a whole lot more meaning into a fewer words and it's not so foreign it's something that
00:47:36somebody who's read the book of romans would be familiar with it's a metaphor that they know even
00:47:41if they don't necessarily understand what it means we do have some people in our fellowship who have
00:47:45jewish ancestry um mostly on the fringes but most of us we are you know we grew up in christian
00:47:53churches
00:47:53or in no church at all um and didn't believe that keeping god's commandments was uh such a big thing
00:48:02other than the 10 commandments and even then only some of them some of the time but we changed our
00:48:08name
00:48:08because we are we have been made part of israel through this grafting process and that name comes
00:48:16from this passage here and what i was saying here is that it's not actually not at the end of
00:48:21verse 17
00:48:21the first phrase in verse 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches and everybody in this conversation
00:48:28is a branch so that might seem kind of confusing but i think it's it's pretty clear that what paul
00:48:33is
00:48:33saying you know going back to that that chiastic structure the second half of romans is addressed
00:48:41to the gentiles and talking about the role of the native branches in the kingdom like don't be arrogant
00:48:49towards the native branches you're a branch now too you've been grafted in but don't be arrogant
00:48:54towards those other branches even the ones that were broken off because the people of israel even the
00:49:02apostate israel those who are in sin who have rejected the messiah they are still part of israel and
00:49:09they are still god's chosen people and because of that because god made a promise to abraham and isaac and
00:49:15jacob and god is going to honor that promise don't look at those you know the jews like if you
00:49:23look at the city
00:49:24of tel aviv it's one of the most degenerate cities in the world the biggest gay pride parade in the
00:49:31world you know things like that don't look at those people and say oh they are so awful god will
00:49:38never
00:49:38god must hate those people because that's not true they are loved for the sake of the
00:49:46of the patriarchs in the promises that god made to them and if a wild branch can be grafted into
00:49:53this
00:49:53tree then it's so much easier for the native branch to be grafted in and i may be getting ahead
00:50:00of
00:50:01myself because i think that's actually the next verse okay does that make sense and then this last
00:50:06part remember that it's not you who support the root but the root supports you the prophets the
00:50:13patriarchs they didn't come from rome or greece or or china or any other place they came from israel
00:50:20or rather they created israel the patriarchs created israel and all of the prophets and everything since
00:50:26then you know the david who is the the what's the term i'm looking for the prototype of messiah
00:50:35he was a jew he was from the tribe of judah he's an israelite and the irony is that this
00:50:43passage in well romans in its entirety is used by the church to flip it on its on its head
00:50:50you know it's basically arguing no no we're we're the grafted in ones and we know how this is supposed
00:50:56to go and you need to listen to us yeah they twisted around to say exactly the opposite of what
00:51:02it says
00:51:04right jews have inherited all of these promises in the prophets they have this ancient culture
00:51:10that their jewish sages have been studying the scripture for thousands of years they were
00:51:19they had torah scholars a thousand years before there was a single christian
00:51:24and even if they are partially blinded today and even if they have a lot of things wrong
00:51:28they still have that heritage the truth is still buried underneath all of that garbage
00:51:34and when god is ready for them when he's ready to take those blinders off they're going to come flooding
00:51:40back and i think that's something to look forward to and to you know to pray for the the salvation
00:51:49of israel for the jews because that's going to be an enormous blessing for the whole world
00:51:54not just for them i mean it's enough to pray for the blessing for them but you know once israel
00:52:00is
00:52:00in order that's going to start something that's going to put the whole world in order and that is
00:52:06what hamas is afraid of oh yeah they yeah that's about the last thing that they want you know i
00:52:13had a
00:52:14thought earlier today you know i saw some pictures of it was a catholic procession in honor of some saint
00:52:21and they had the saint's skull in a glass box and they were carrying it around on you know a
00:52:28pillow
00:52:29or something and you know they're shouting and playing instruments and singing and it's like
00:52:36this looks like a death cult i mean i know that there there are good catholics and there are catholics
00:52:41who are undoubtedly saved in part of this tree but i don't think that you can be a good catholic
00:52:49and
00:52:49accept all of this stuff and be part of this tree because the tree is life and death has no
00:52:58part in
00:52:58that tree one of the the holiest sites of catholicism are churches built on the graves of saints yeah they
00:53:08bury a saint under the altar and that makes the place extra holy but that's the opposite of relics as
00:53:13well yeah you know bones of the saints and they put them in niches in the walls and all kinds
00:53:19of
00:53:19crazy stuff like that all the world's religions seem to be sorted into death and life and i don't
00:53:25think that you have to have all the right theology to be grafted into the tree of israel you have
00:53:31to
00:53:31have faith in the right messiah and you have to at least be committed to him you have to be
00:53:36you have
00:53:37to submit to that messiah even if you misunderstand what the messiah wants from you it's enough to be
00:53:44committed at least that's the start but there are so when i say religions what i mean are
00:53:53you know collections of beliefs about god and what he expects from us that's what i mean by religion
00:53:58i don't mean anything necessarily bad by that word so you can have say you know baptists and
00:54:08lutherans or messianic jews or you know whatever these are all different religions and some of these
00:54:15are religions of life and i won't even say i mean just like catholicism catholicism is mixed up
00:54:22it's both a religion of death and life and it's all about the individual not necessarily the religious
00:54:29system but some religious systems are bent on death and some are bent on life islam is bent on death
00:54:39it is everywhere it goes it creates misery and chaos and you know that it throughout history that
00:54:47hasn't always been true all the time but it's a pretty strong tendency it's if you have a choice
00:54:53between living in a christian nation or a muslim nation or a shinto nation i know there's only one
00:54:58of those but still then pick one of those other ones don't pick islam yeah another another word you
00:55:04could use in lieu of death would be obligation islam would be catholicism would be it's
00:55:12what a number of religions you must do x y and z in order to to um realize whatever it
00:55:21is that they
00:55:22want you to realize but it's it's uh that's sort of a form of death as well yeah well if
00:55:28you're saying
00:55:28that you must do x y and z to get life then right then yeah you're you're much more likely
00:55:34to get death
00:55:35out of that than life right and you know that can be misleading in a way too because you know
00:55:43we've
00:55:43talked about this idea of faith and the person's faithfulness before and this is another topic that
00:55:49we'll get to in this chapter if we if probably not going to get there tonight but this the grief
00:55:55word pistis and the related words that talk about faith you know there is already we've talked about
00:56:02the already and not yet idea that's all through scripture in the kingdom of heaven and in salvation
00:56:07and the the new covenant it's also in faith you believe and you are believing you have faith and you
00:56:15are faithful and you can't have one without the other you can't be faithful to god without having
00:56:21faith without having crossed that line from being faithless to believing in him so there's a point at
00:56:28which having faith means believing in him and being faithful is acting on that belief if you believe
00:56:35in him if you have faith then you will be faithful if you are not faithful then you clearly don't
00:56:41have
00:56:41faith and that doesn't mean that you have to be you know completely obedient all at once but there is
00:56:48a
00:56:48process and there is life that comes from being faithful and death from being unfaithful but it's not
00:56:55like you earn your place on the tree or earn your place in god's favor by doing all the right
00:57:01stuff
00:57:01you can obtain it by accepting what he gives and submitting to him he's already offered it without
00:57:09you know demanding anything except your faithfulness or your belief in him sorry go ahead jim
00:57:17but that's why they have degrees of faith little faith great faith you know yeah there are benefits
00:57:27from being more faithful it's not going to get you more eternal life i mean eternity is eternity
00:57:33but it will potentially add to your life benefits because the syrophoenician woman
00:57:43when she went to yashua for the healing of her child
00:57:48um yashua said it's not meant for him to take the children's bread and give it to dogs
00:57:54and what she said she said even the dogs he did come some after the master's table
00:58:01that the lord moved yashua to say you know this woman has great faith because here she's going to
00:58:08stand up in front of him to tell him where he ate i mean in dogs eat from the master's
00:58:14table so if you
00:58:15want to call me a dog is okay because she wanted her child to be healed and she wasn't watching
00:58:22and she get that response so you benefit by having the greater faith that somebody that's a faith
00:58:32yeah something is better than nothing that's right all right let's move on to the next one
00:58:38and here's another point that is going to cause that can cause some confusion especially because of
00:58:45what what i just said a minute ago then you will say branches were broken off so that i might
00:58:50be
00:58:50grafted in well that's true but they were broken off because of their unbelief but you stand fast
00:58:55through faith so do not become proud but fear for if god did not spare the natural branches neither
00:59:00will he spare you i want to address this first statement right off you know paul is using this
00:59:08this argument method where he has this hypothetical person and he's going back and forth the hypothetical
00:59:15person says well the branches were broken off so that i might be grafted in and we were just talking
00:59:20about that a minute ago and i think that this can give the wrong impression it's not that you know
00:59:27one branch had to be broken off so that i could be grafted into that spot it's that the branches
00:59:32had to
00:59:32be broken off so that that would cause the chain of events that brought the gospel to the nations
00:59:38and then i can be grafted in and i don't not grafted into that same spot i'm just grafted in
00:59:43somewhere on
00:59:44the tree in the exact location isn't really the point the point is that the process of
00:59:50the temporary repudiation of the jews is what started the process of evangelizing the nations
00:59:57it's just easy to misunderstand what paul is saying here to mean that one branch broken off
01:00:04means one branch grafted in and you're grafted into that yeah it almost it almost gives the impression
01:00:08like a pie you can only have so much yeah when that's not what he's talking about he's saying you
01:00:14know god's infinite he can take as many people in as is are willing to join but this certainly gives
01:00:21the impression to me yeah this gives the impression of a limited size tent only so many people can come
01:00:29widen the tent yep yeah so we've talked about most of what's here already you know they were broken
01:00:38off for their unbelief and their unbelief means their faithlessness it's the same greek word it's
01:00:45just you know how it's translated depends on how the translator wants to spin it and i think the
01:00:51translator in the esv is trying to emphasize that it's not because of you know unfaithful behavior that
01:00:57you know they did something wrong it's because they didn't have any faith in the messiah they didn't
01:01:02believe god's promises and their disbelief in his promises led to faithless behavior it's not the
01:01:08other way around so i mean it kind of amounts to the same thing but it's this could be used
01:01:16to argue
01:01:17that you can lose your salvation simply by misbehaving and i don't think that's correct you can lose your
01:01:25salvation by rejecting it which isn't really the same as losing it it's throwing it away
01:01:31i don't think you can lose it incidentally by making a mistake it's a slippery concept too because
01:01:38it talks about the branches being broken off and it implies god's breaking them off he's not
01:01:45they are breaking themselves off but yeah it's a cooperative venture i think that you know they
01:01:51are they are taking that first step in refusing to believe in him and then he's actually his actions
01:01:57are consequence of their right yeah he's not he's not breaking them off because you know he's just
01:02:03randomly choosing i want to keep this branch and throw that branch out that's not what it's about
01:02:09it's this branch is shown no faith in me they don't believe in me so i gotta get this one
01:02:14out of
01:02:14here to save the tree it's a diseased branch oh so well okay people like that okay i pass
01:02:24and um his honors or they were jews and because of their unbelief that was causing them to act
01:02:33the way they acted against you sure am i wrong no you're you're right they had a particular idea in
01:02:42mind of what the messiah was supposed to be and he didn't fit their pattern and so they rejected him
01:02:48and then because they rejected the messiah then god finished it for them and you know kicked them
01:02:56out of the land removed his favor from them temporarily yeah they were sort of akin to the pharaoh
01:03:03yeah i think they were they were destined to act the way they did they were akin to the pharaoh
01:03:10they're not not literally related but they were no acting in the same way it was a similar
01:03:14situation yeah he was a prototype yeah okay okay so at the end is saying that you shouldn't be proud
01:03:24of being grafted in i mean paul has already said that there's we haven't done anything to brag about
01:03:29we aren't grafted in of our own power we can't force our way into israel um but we can believe
01:03:36in
01:03:36the messiah we can believe in god's character and accept his promises and then god through his divine
01:03:42action grafts us into that tree of israel he's the one who makes that happen and it's just like being
01:03:50broken off it's a cooperative venture he has extended the offer we've accepted it and then he
01:03:56grafts us in and the other way around god extended the offer we reject it and god cuts us off
01:04:03it happens
01:04:05both ways uh and god is saying just like it's easier to graft the natural branches in than it is
01:04:13to
01:04:13graft a wild branch in it's you know if he didn't spare the natural branches who were the children of
01:04:20his
01:04:20promise they were already his chosen people and if they stop believing in natural branches if it's a
01:04:27branch it's already in there so why does it have to be grafted in if it's natural well it has
01:04:31to be
01:04:31grafted back in so once they've been cut off for unbelief if they then repent and come back he will
01:04:37graft them back in i guess paul in this verse in verse 21 he's saying you know the the jews
01:04:44were god's
01:04:44chosen people he had already set them apart they were sacred they had the prophets they had the
01:04:50teaching they had the commandments and you know they were doing most of the commandments but they didn't
01:04:55even have any they just didn't have faith in the messiah they didn't believe god's promises
01:05:00and so he cut them off and if he's willing to cut off people who are already his chosen people
01:05:07who
01:05:07were born in this house if he's willing to cut them off for their unbelief if then you change your
01:05:12mind
01:05:12and decide you no longer believe god's promises and you reject the messiah don't think he's going to
01:05:19spare you he cut them off he'll cut you off too well i mean kicked adam and eve out of
01:05:24the garden so
01:05:25that says a lot you know yeah and i think this verse here completely destroys the idea that you
01:05:32cannot ever lose your salvation you know the idea of eternal security that once you are saved forever
01:05:38and nothing you could ever do say or believe it could ever change that i think that that doesn't
01:05:45make any sense at all to me in light of this passage what was that june one save always save
01:05:53that's what
01:05:54they are i think is the pentecostal people have that belief one save always save yeah well some of
01:06:01them do it's it's the that's really a calvinist it's not well it's not uniquely calvinist other people
01:06:06believe it too but yeah it's it's it's another one of those things that's partly true you can't
01:06:15accidentally lose your salvation like you know it's something you misplaced but you can reject it by
01:06:22choosing not to have faith by choosing to reject the messiah and this shows when it says that neither
01:06:29will he spare you he's talking to people who have already been grafted in so they are saved they have
01:06:36eternal salvation and then all is saying don't be arrogant don't get proud because that will lead
01:06:44you to reject god's promises and his messiah and then god will cut you off and if god can cut
01:06:50you
01:06:50off from the tree and you can lose your eternal salvation that seems to be the pretty clear argument
01:06:57that paul is making here it doesn't mean like i said i keep saying it over and over because i
01:07:03think
01:07:03it's important to understand you can't lose your salvation by sinning too much you can lose your
01:07:12salvation by rejecting it by rejecting your faith in him and i i know that that's kind of a fuzzy
01:07:20difference but it's the difference between being weak you know i want to do the right thing i'm trying
01:07:27to do the right thing but i keep screwing up or i don't know what the right thing is to
01:07:31do or i was
01:07:33taught that all of these things were true my whole life and it turns out that these other things were
01:07:38actually true and this was all a lie you know just like we were talking about the catholic thing
01:07:42there are people who will get involved in in you know all of this death cult stuff because the catholic
01:07:49church has told them that this is what you do to honor god not because you know they well they
01:07:55just
01:07:55don't know any better you're not going to lose your salvation for making honest mistakes or for
01:08:01being a weak person you will lose your salvation by rejecting faith in the messiah by saying god
01:08:08doesn't keep his promises and i don't believe in him anymore that's how you get cut off i hope is
01:08:14the
01:08:14difference between that clear yes yeah okay i'm agreement with you okay what is the next verse
01:08:23yeah let's do the one one more verse and then i think it'd be good for tonight
01:08:28verse 22 note then the kindness and the severity of god severity toward those who have fallen but god's
01:08:36kindness to you provided you continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off so here
01:08:42paul is saying the same thing again just in different words um you know god's kindness is manifested
01:08:49in his desire to forgive yeah you know to heal you to restore you in his forbearance to condemn
01:08:58he you know you're guilty he knows you're guilty and he has decided not to punish you and instead he's
01:09:03decided to graft you into his tree and make you one of his own because you don't want to behave
01:09:08in ways that are contrary to his commandments anymore and this is god's kindness his severity on the
01:09:15other hand is to those who reject him who are faithless towards him he will cut them off and
01:09:20condemn them to the second death but the real question i think in this verse is at the in the
01:09:28last half provided you continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off so if you're going
01:09:36to be cut off if you don't continue in his kindness i think it's really important to understand
01:09:41what it means to continue in his kindness anybody have any thoughts about that the salvation that
01:09:48he offered you could be it is definitely true that you know if you're if you don't remain in that
01:09:56salvation then you will lose that salvation but that's kind of a tautology too you know saying
01:10:01something the same way twice it's like saying well if two plus two equals four then two plus two must
01:10:09equal four i think that the problem here is in maybe in the translation or the specific words
01:10:15chosen let me i'm going to verify it sounds like a a king analogy you you get to exist you
01:10:22get to
01:10:23function because of my my um my beneficence you know in other words i'm the king i'm here you're
01:10:32there and even though you're there i'm i'm i'm still letting you exist maybe i don't know okay well
01:10:40let's look at what some of these words mean the word here for kindness uh it's translated as goodness
01:10:46in the king james uh stotes in the greek it means moral goodness or integrity or just kindness
01:10:56that's a valid translation also but moral goodness or integrity in english doesn't really mean the same
01:11:03thing as kindness something that's morally good is usually kind but not always because
01:11:10capital punishment is a moral goodness because god has commanded it but it's not kind it's not nice
01:11:16you know punishing thieves that's a moral goodness too but it's not nice it is kind to the victims of
01:11:25those people but not kind to that person themselves so in this case the first part where it says you
01:11:32know god's kindness towards you that could be moral goodness or kindness either one i mean it's
01:11:37definitely kindness because he has extended eternal salvation to you and forgiveness when he didn't have
01:11:43to you know this is god's grace so in that case kindness is a good translation the second one says
01:11:50the word his isn't actually in the greek that's added by the translation young's literal translates
01:11:58the word goodness and it says if thou mayest remain in the goodness otherwise thou shalt be cut off
01:12:07young's literal is always very awkward but if thou mayest remain in the goodness if we translate it
01:12:15or understand it in that case as being moral goodness or righteous integrity then it takes on
01:12:22a whole nother character if you remain in your righteousness or if you remain in your moral goodness
01:12:29otherwise you will be cut off and you know this goes back to what i was saying about you're not
01:12:36going
01:12:36to be cut off for making mistakes or for being a weak person that's not rejecting or leaving your moral
01:12:43goodness leaving it or if you don't remain in that goodness or in that righteousness that means walking
01:12:53away from it it doesn't mean falling you know making a slip up here and there it means if you
01:12:59abandon it
01:13:00if you abandon righteousness or the moral standards that god has set before you if you say i'm i know
01:13:08god
01:13:08said to do this i don't care i'm not going to do that anymore then you will be cut off
01:13:13and i think
01:13:14that's really what paul is saying here making sense yeah
01:13:19that's really what paul is saying here making sense yeah
01:13:25yeah
01:13:25yeah
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