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00:05On Ask This Old House, our experts travel across the country to answer questions about your house.
00:18Today, Lee heads the Pacific Northwest to learn about grass seed manufacturing.
00:24It was almost like paying it for gold back in the day.
00:27Then, Mark gives a primer on pavers with various materials available and how to arrange them.
00:34And Nathan gets some help from an apprentice installing a porch swing.
00:41On Ask This Old House.
00:46You ever wonder where your grass seed comes from?
00:49I'm out here in the Pacific Northwest. It's beautiful out here.
00:53And we're looking at Kentucky bluegrass. It's a beautiful seed.
00:56We have it out here in the fields growing like this all the way to harvesting to a plant that
01:01shakes it all down and cleans it all up.
01:03So let's go and take a look.
01:08Hello. Hi, Michael. How are you? I'm Lee.
01:10Lee, Michael Neff. Nice to meet you.
01:12Nice to meet you as well. I'm excited to be out here. This is gorgeous.
01:15Question. Why is it the area for beautiful Kentucky bluegrass to grow?
01:19Well, 80% of the world's Kentucky bluegrass seed is produced. It's here in eastern Washington.
01:2590% of the world's Kentucky bluegrass seed is produced in the inland Northwest, which includes northern Idaho and northern
01:33Oregon.
01:33Okay. And what's your role? What do you do?
01:35So my role is I'm a professor at Washington State University and I'm a grass breeder.
01:40And in the case of Kentucky bluegrass, we talk with the producers and the end users to figure out what
01:45it is that they're looking for.
01:46And then we develop those varieties and move them into the market.
01:50What we're breeding for right now is yield, salt tolerance, which allows you to irrigate with recycled water and then
01:58drought resistance.
01:59Okay, great. What do we have here?
02:01This is Kentucky bluegrass flower.
02:03Okay. So these are the seed heads. There's individual flowers in here and inside those flowers is a seed.
02:09So what they'll do when they harvest is that they will cut the grass at night.
02:14So why are we doing it at night?
02:15Well, at nighttime it cools off and that increases the humidity a little bit, just like how fog happens when
02:20it gets cooler.
02:21And so that keeps the moisture in the head and it keeps the seeds from being lost during that first
02:27cutting.
02:27Okay. Then they'll have these windrows or piles and they'll let that dry for a couple of days.
02:33And then they'll come in with a combine, which is a combine harvester and thresher.
02:36Okay. And they will separate out these seed heads from the rest of the plant.
02:40Then they will take that and they'll go to a seed cleaning plant where they'll do the rest of the
02:45separation out until we get to these little teeny seeds.
02:49Okay. It's over a million seeds per pound.
02:51Wow. Is there a plant nearby we can go take a look at?
02:54There is. Absolutely. It's a very typical seed cleaning plant here in eastern Washington.
02:58They've invited us to come and see how the whole process works.
03:01Great. Let's take advantage of that.
03:02Let's do that.
03:03Okay. Let's go.
03:03All right.
03:05Hi. How you doing? I'm Lee.
03:06Jason Miller. Nice to meet you.
03:07Thank you, Jason. Thanks for having me. Beautiful facilities.
03:09Oh my goodness.
03:10Well, thank you. It's a nice day here today.
03:11It's a gorgeous day here.
03:12So Lee, Jason is the owner and operator of this seed cleaning facility here.
03:16What we're looking at is Kentucky bluegrass. It's very similar to the material that was in the field.
03:22Okay.
03:22That we were at this morning.
03:24Then we're going to go clean this.
03:26Yep.
03:26Interesting to see how that's done.
03:28So Jason, do you mind showing us how the whole cleaning operation works today?
03:32I will. Let's go. Let's go see that.
03:34Awesome. All right.
03:35So what do we have here, Jason?
03:37Lee, we have our feeder that controls this process in this grass cleaning facility.
03:41Okay.
03:42So the material that dumps in, this auger conveyor at the bottom is controlled by a frequency drive.
03:46Okay.
03:47It goes up that bucket elevator to a suiko.
03:49That suiko pulls out all the big foreign objects.
03:53Okay.
03:53As well as sand.
03:54Quickly then goes from that suiko up this bucket elevator to the deburiter.
03:58That deburiter chews the product up, makes it more consistent for us.
04:01Okay.
04:02From there it goes to the cleaner.
04:03The cleaner scalps and sifts other foreign materials.
04:06From there, we go into the other building.
04:09All right. Let's go. Let's check that out.
04:10All right. Let's roll that way.
04:12What do we got here, Jason?
04:13Lee, right here we got two examples of screens that go inside this cleaner.
04:17Okay.
04:18We have here a scalp screen.
04:20Scalp screen.
04:20Okay.
04:21So that's going to scalp off the bad material.
04:23Yep.
04:23And this we have a sift screen right here.
04:25A sift one.
04:26Okay.
04:26So the smaller, lighter material is going to go through this screen.
04:30Okay.
04:30And it's either going to go to salvage or to garbage.
04:33So we've got different cuts along this machine.
04:35We can do a lot of different things.
04:36We come over here to the end.
04:38We've got about 10% less parts than we did outside.
04:42Okay.
04:42We're getting a little bit closer.
04:43A little bit refined.
04:44Yep.
04:45And then we get to our density machine.
04:46Okay.
04:47We have a gravity table right here.
04:48Nice.
04:49Look at that.
04:50Wow.
04:52That's beautiful.
04:53So we've got your heavies over here.
04:55Okay.
04:55And we've got your lights over here.
04:57Nice.
04:58In between that is our seed that we're going to keep.
05:01It's almost like paying it for gold back in the day.
05:04It's very similar to that.
05:06Okay.
05:07And then we come into our mixer.
05:08This just takes and homogenizes the seed.
05:11It takes what we've done over the last 10-15 minutes.
05:14Yep.
05:15Compiles it.
05:16Keeps it together.
05:17And then from there we're going to bag it off.
05:19Nice.
05:19With this nice bulk bagger here.
05:21And then it's ready and waiting for tests.
05:24Okay.
05:24We're going to go over the other side and package it off.
05:26Probably about 20-30 days.
05:28Right.
05:29Over here we have the bagging process.
05:32Okay.
05:33So unlike over there taking 10-15 minutes to get to the end of the line.
05:36Yeah, it just takes just a few minutes.
05:39It can do about 400 bags an hour.
05:41Then the seed comes down the conveyor.
05:43And before the robot takes and picks it off the end.
05:46Yeah.
05:46It will drop that seed, reposition the seed one more time.
05:49Compact it to the end.
05:51Very nice.
05:51Look at that.
05:52Okay.
05:53And then after this we put some stretch wrap on it and it gets shipped out.
05:56That's unbelievable.
05:57That works out really nice.
05:58Hey, I want to thank you so much.
05:59I appreciate it.
06:00It was good.
06:01It was nice meeting you.
06:02Very nice to meet you.
06:03Jason, thanks for giving us the opportunity to learn about your seed cleaning plan.
06:06Thank you so much.
06:07Just absolutely wonderful.
06:08Mike, it's been a pleasure working with you.
06:10I enjoyed it immensely.
06:11Hey, you guys have a great day.
06:12We will.
06:13See you soon.
06:13All right, take care.
06:14All right, bye now.
06:15Alrighty.
06:21There you are, Mark.
06:22Hey, Kevin.
06:23I hear we're talking hardscaping, huh?
06:25So that's what we have in front of us for sure.
06:27All right.
06:28So what you're looking at is traditional brick, okay, and traditional patterns.
06:32Okay.
06:33This is a molded brick, which is very, very typical back in the day.
06:36So literally it is put in a mold, fired, baked, dried, all that stuff.
06:41All that stuff.
06:41But this is what we call a running bond pattern.
06:44So you can see it going back and forth.
06:47It does over here as well, but this goes the long way and not the short way.
06:50Wait, wait.
06:51So let me just make sure I got that straight.
06:52If we've got a walkway with a left and a right side, you're telling me this goes back and forth
06:58this way.
06:59Whereas our left and right side is here.
07:00So these run the length.
07:01Exactly.
07:02And by the way, this is my favorite because usually walkways are long and this gives me that linear feeling.
07:08Right.
07:09Yep.
07:10This is the same pattern, running bond pattern, but set at a diagonal, usually used for patios.
07:16Over here, if you want to spend a couple bucks, we have a herringbone pattern.
07:19And is this a couple bucks more because a complicated layout or because you end up with a lot of
07:26cut brick and waste or both?
07:28So you do have the most cuts out of a herringbone pattern.
07:31But if you do set everything correctly and make it straight and take your measurements off the center, you're going
07:36to have less cuts.
07:37Nice.
07:38All right.
07:39All right.
07:39Over to my right is what we call a basket weave pattern.
07:44Very, very simple.
07:45No cuts at all with this one.
07:46And you can see the simplicity two by two by two by two.
07:50Okay.
07:51So these are patterns.
07:52Yeah.
07:52We can choose different materials.
07:54Right.
07:54You'll help me out here.
07:55Sure.
07:56This looks like a traditional brick.
07:58Yes.
07:58And this does not.
08:00Okay.
08:00So this is a traditional brick.
08:03It's actually everything you see on your feet in Boston.
08:06That's why they call this a city hall paver.
08:08It's not a brand name, but it's a nickname.
08:10Yep.
08:10This is more of what they consider a paver.
08:13This you can see is a little shorter and it's not as wide as this.
08:17Also bigger by design.
08:19Yes.
08:20So that is by design.
08:21A true brick paver is four inches by eight inches.
08:25And then here, the other thing that I'm seeing with the pavers at least is colors.
08:30Right.
08:31So this is what we call a color range.
08:33You can see that the reds are mixed in with the browns.
08:36Did you buy a palette of all this color and all this color mix them or does a palette come
08:40mixed?
08:40Comes mixed.
08:41It does.
08:41Yep.
08:41Oh, nice.
08:42The other thing that I'm noticing is texture, right?
08:44Right.
08:45Which is pretty distinctive right there.
08:46Exactly.
08:47So this is what we call a matte finish.
08:49And all that means is you get a good grip on your foot.
08:52Mm-hmm.
08:52All right.
08:54When you said pavers, I get it with brick.
08:57Right.
08:57The size, the sharp edges.
08:59But I also was thinking when I heard pavers, I often think of like concrete.
09:02So that's a whole new thing and that's right over there.
09:05Let's check that out.
09:06All right.
09:08All right.
09:09There they are.
09:09All right.
09:10That's what I'm thinking with pavers.
09:11Exactly.
09:11Concrete, right?
09:12Yes.
09:13So this is the modern paver.
09:14You can see the variation not only in size, shape, but color.
09:19Color as well.
09:20Yep.
09:20And so I presume since it's concrete, we're talking the color comes from dye.
09:24Yep.
09:24So you got the lights, you got the reds, you got the darks.
09:27Love that.
09:28Paver.
09:28So we got the crisp edges.
09:30Correct.
09:30But also the nubs along the side.
09:33Right.
09:34So one of my favorite characteristics of these pavers is that nub.
09:37We're going to bring the pavers together until the nubs hit and that's going to allow a nice
09:41gap for the polymetric sand to sink down and hit the bottom.
09:44Nice feature.
09:45So that speeds up your installation.
09:46Sure does.
09:46Yeah.
09:47That's really good.
09:47Okay.
09:48And so different sizes.
09:49Price wise, these are the least expensive options.
09:53Least expensive option.
09:54Once you start a pattern, you pick a pattern and you go with that pattern.
09:57It's just rinse and repeat after that.
10:00So once you get going, you're on a roll.
10:01The material is a lot cheaper.
10:03Yeah.
10:03So any downsides?
10:05The downside to me is always the color fade.
10:08Oh, really?
10:08So after a few years, you can see how bright this one is right now.
10:11But after a few years, that's going to fade.
10:13So two years from now, you're not going to be looking at that red.
10:16Right.
10:16Oh, that's a bummer.
10:17Very dull, yeah.
10:18All right.
10:18And in the winter, if I've got ice, what happens if I throw salt down on these things?
10:22So as soon as you throw salt down on these, they're going to start to
10:25degrade.
10:25So if I, in the winter, am putting this stuff down to keep the ice off, I'm going to end
10:29up damaging this stuff.
10:30Exactly.
10:31So during installation, make sure you have a good pitch on both sides.
10:35So that everything runs off.
10:36So everything runs off.
10:37Okay.
10:38All right.
10:38Concrete pavers.
10:39Ooh.
10:39Yes.
10:40Ooh.
10:41Now we're into naturals.
10:42Here we come with some of the fancy stuff.
10:44So this is a paver, right?
10:46So patios, walkways, all can be done with different materials.
10:51This happens to be bluestone.
10:53They come in different sizes, so you can use different patterns.
10:56Right.
10:56Natural materials, so this is coming out of a quarry.
10:58That's right.
10:59So it's quarried, comes out in a block, they shave the block down, and they'll give you
11:03these different sizes that you see.
11:04So you get a nice, smooth cut on the sides, you get the thickness that you want.
11:08Correct.
11:09On the face, you get that sort of beautiful, irregular, natural look.
11:13That's right.
11:14And skid resistant as well.
11:16And I presume more expensive than concrete, because that's the most affordable.
11:20That's right.
11:21So if you want to spend some money, you're going to get the bluestone or that granite.
11:24So this is nice too.
11:26Right.
11:26Look at that.
11:27Again, natural material.
11:28Yep.
11:29So this is actually quarried locally.
11:31It's what we call a Chelmsford granite.
11:34That's a salt and pepper right there.
11:35Mm-hmm.
11:36And you can see nice skid resistant surface as well.
11:39And is this sort of as durable in your mind as the bluestone?
11:43Exactly.
11:44If not more so.
11:45Yep.
11:45Price wise, comparing?
11:46They're comparable, but you'll probably spend another buck for that.
11:50Oh.
11:51Yep.
11:51Great.
11:52Nice.
11:52So if I'm thinking of doing a patio myself and I need to order this, what do I tell them?
11:58Like how am I telling quantity?
11:59Because that I kind of get.
12:01Everything's the same, but with different sizes?
12:03Right.
12:04So square footage is what you give them, which is width and length.
12:09I got 10 by 15.
12:10That's 150 square feet.
12:11Yep.
12:11Is that what I tell them?
12:12That's what you tell them.
12:13I actually add 2% on top of that for waste.
12:16If I find a piece that has a little bit more of a cleft than I like, I'll throw it
12:20out,
12:20get another piece.
12:21So that's why I go 2%.
12:22And if I say 150 square feet, are they going to figure out how many bigs, how many littles
12:28so that it adds up to that?
12:29They do.
12:30It's well thought out.
12:31And again, it's a pattern, but you won't pick the pattern up when you put it down.
12:35So square foot is already have that figured in.
12:39All right.
12:39Well, I'm going to add 10% given the way I work.
12:41Well, you do you.
12:43Okay.
12:44All right, Mark.
12:45Payments 101.
12:45You got it, Kevin.
12:46Appreciate it.
12:54Good morning.
12:55Thanks for coming out.
12:56How are you?
12:57Good.
12:57Nice to meet you.
12:58Nice to meet you.
12:58Who is this guy?
12:59This is my son, Freddie.
13:01Freddie.
13:01Nice to meet you.
13:02Do a spin.
13:03Woo.
13:04Go to mama.
13:06The house is beautiful.
13:07Thank you so much.
13:08We just completed a big renovation.
13:10The inside's basically done, but we're still finishing up some things out here.
13:13Very nice.
13:14You wrote me about a porch swing though.
13:15I did.
13:16It's right up here.
13:16I can show you.
13:17Take a look.
13:18Freddie, can you lead the way?
13:19Here we go.
13:20Up the stairs.
13:22This is where we have the porch swing.
13:24This is a great spot for one.
13:25Thanks.
13:26I like this.
13:28So two things I'm thinking about when I think of a porch swing is the clearance around
13:32it.
13:33Right.
13:33And then I think about the structure that we're going to attach to.
13:35Okay.
13:36Starting with the clearance, we're looking for maybe two to three feet behind it.
13:39So it has plenty of room to swing.
13:40Okay.
13:41Left to right, you look really good.
13:42Plenty of clearance.
13:44Structure.
13:44What do you think you have for structure up in the ceiling?
13:46So when we did the renovation, we did ask the contractor to put an extra support
13:50joist in the ceiling.
13:51I can show you a picture that we have saved of it.
13:53It's about two feet out from that end.
13:55Two feet from this end out here.
13:57All right.
13:58Right.
13:58But now that we have this swing, which we really like, we're realizing the chain is actually
14:02in the middle of the swing.
14:03Okay.
14:03So two feet might not be enough space.
14:05Okay.
14:06They like to see about two to three feet behind a porch swing.
14:09So let's move it out a little bit more.
14:11Freddie, grab it.
14:11Okay.
14:11Give a push.
14:12Oh, right here.
14:14Good job.
14:15Actually, I'm going to come on your side.
14:16All right.
14:17Let's check our measurements.
14:19I got about 32 inches to the center point roughly right now.
14:23Freddie, can you give me a hand?
14:25Look up.
14:25See the ceiling?
14:26Yeah.
14:27I think that we're going to have to open up the ceiling.
14:29We're going to have to check out where the ceiling joists are.
14:31We might have to add a new ceiling joist, close things back up, add some brackets so
14:35we can hang the swing up.
14:36You want to give me a hand?
14:37Yeah.
14:37All right.
14:38Let's get to work.
14:38Okay.
14:39All right.
14:39Let's do it.
14:41So we know we're coming out this side.
14:45So we know you're set up probably around two feet.
14:47Right.
14:47We're going to be coming out to that 32 inch, three foot range.
14:51So I have some cortex.
14:52I have some screws and bungs right here at 44.
14:56So I'm going to go right here at 43.
15:00Perfect.
15:00And then we can make that cut.
15:02The way that I want to get started is by pulling down this piece of PVC fascia board that you
15:06have here.
15:07Okay.
15:07It's a really long run.
15:08So I want to do a relief cut.
15:09To make that cut, I'm going to use an oscillating tool.
15:12And I took a two by four and I ripped a 22 and a half degree angle on it.
15:15I'm going to guide my oscillating tool along it.
15:17So I make a really clean cut.
15:19So when we put it back, it looks nice.
15:21Great.
15:21All right.
15:22So there's my mark.
15:24Keep it nice and square.
16:00All right.
16:01So now we need to pull that board down.
16:03Okay.
16:03So what we need to do is work essentially backwards of what they did.
16:06So you can see here, you have a bung and behind that there's a screw.
16:10So if I take a new screw, drive it in, I hit the top of the old screw.
16:16Then I can pull that out.
16:19Then I take it and I put it in a reverse.
16:25So now we can just do that to all the screws and things will fall right down.
16:28Perfect.
16:29Hey, I like your glasses.
16:31You guys match.
16:32Look, you both have glasses and a hat.
16:34What's this?
16:35Look at, you both have a drill.
16:36Buzz yours.
16:42Zzzz zzzz Zzzz
16:54All right, that should be the last one.
16:56Hey Albert.
16:58Hey, can you grab this drill from me?
17:00Yeah.
17:01You're doing a good job.
17:04Big muscles. Oh, I'll take that one. Thank you.
17:10I got it. So now we can see what we're working with.
17:17So we've got our bead board. We can get to the, to the back, to the side.
17:21What we need to do is start pulling these out to expose the ceiling,
17:24but we want to do it really, really cautiously because we don't want to break it.
17:28So we're trying to loosen the nail away from it. Yep.
17:31So pry that down and then go to the next one.
17:42Alrighty. Now we've got everything cleaned off.
17:44We can call out what we're working with.
17:47So we have our bead board ceiling.
17:49We just took down that was attached to our strapping that is running on the
17:53bottom side of our ceiling joists. And then right here,
17:57there's that beam that they put in that ceiling joists really nice one,
18:00four by six above that. We have our rafters coming down.
18:05The rafters and our ceiling joists are landing on top of our beam out there.
18:08And then we swing over here. They're tying in your,
18:12your ceiling joists is tying into your ledger.
18:14So what we need to do build a new ceiling joists,
18:17put it just where we want it. And then we close things back up.
18:19And that's where the swing will go. That's where this one will go.
18:21Great.
18:23We're going to cut this strapping out so we can get our new ceiling joists in.
18:31All right, here we go. So I got my two by eights screwed together.
18:36I'll guide it over the axis to center it. Perfect.
18:46All right. So now I'm going to add some blocking to either side of this ceiling joists over here.
18:53I'm going to add a hanger below the ceiling joists over there,
18:55and then we can put our strapping back in and then we can close things up.
18:59Great. Sounds good.
19:02I got these special two and a half inch structural screws for the hanger.
19:10And now we can toss into strapping and we're just going to sister it on
19:13right next to the existing strapping. Okay.
19:16Send her home. Great.
19:19One last step we need to do is fill in some strapping going in line with our ceiling joists
19:23because we have our swing hanger. It's going to mount approximately right here.
19:26Good. All right. Now we're ready to do our layout for our swing hangers.
19:32These are the ones I picked up. Nice black finish.
19:35They are rated to hold 2,000 pounds. So nice and strong.
19:38What I want to do is actually a layout while we have everything open,
19:40then we're going to close it up and then we're going to mount them. Okay.
19:43So to do that,
19:44I took some measurements off of the swing that you provided, right? It's very specific,
19:48but from chain to chain, you have 46 and a half inches. Yep. I take that measurement.
19:52I divide that in half, 23 and a quarter.
19:54Now, when you hang the porch swing, you want it to, the chains to pitch out a little bit.
19:58Mm-hmm. So we'll have an inch and a half on either side of pitch,
20:01and then simply three inches from our first lag hole to our second lag hole.
20:06We'll bolt it up after the beadboard ceiling's up and it'll be good to go.
20:09Sounds great.
20:10All right.
20:11So for the layout, 23 and a half inches off our center point.
20:15It's right there.
20:17And then you are going to go 23 and a quarter your way.
20:22Mm-hmm.
20:23And that is going to put me to my first lag bolt.
20:26Okay.
20:26And then I'm going to introduce the three-point laser.
20:30I'm going to take these pinpoints and drop them down onto the surface of your deck.
20:35All right. So that's one mark.
20:36Mark?
20:38What's a mark?
20:39A mark?
20:40Like a pencil mark.
20:40All right. Then I know I've got to go over like three inches.
20:44Whoa.
20:44I think that's pretty good right there.
20:46See this mark here?
20:48And here?
20:49So right above them, those marks transferred down.
20:53And the reason I'm going to do that is we can close everything up.
20:56I can set my laser up after, project those back up, pre-drill for our lag bolts.
21:00Everything will be really clean.
21:02We'll know exactly where we're going.
21:10Perfect.
21:11Actually perfect.
21:15Perfect.
21:15Perfect.
21:18Perfect.
21:40drop that in there is it going okay remember we got to get that on that hook down below
21:47yes all right all right and then we'll get mama mama help me hang it up
21:56tell me what you think this thing is awesome right you like it
22:02you guys sleep after a hard day's work very hard work thanks for letting him help you're welcome
22:08thanks for all your help today freddie it's a little bit of homework for you though all right
22:12maybe once a year check the nuts and bolts make sure everything stays tight okay nice and safe
22:16other than that you're good to go great yeah thanks so much enjoy it freddie thank you for
22:20all your help today i'll see you soon yeah all right take care bye thank you bye thank you welcome
22:40next time on ask this old house richard talks about sink drain maintenance with tips and tricks to keep
22:48everything flowing then myro demonstrates both some low-tech and high-tech ways to test for lead paint
22:56and a steep hill has a homeowner stumbling mark steps in to help installing some hillside stairs
23:04i don't think that could have gone any better all that on ask this old house
23:22so
23:28you
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