- 1 hour ago
John Collins speaks with Eve, a former participant in charismatic and deliverance movements, about her journey through healing ministries, prophetic practices, and ecstatic worship—and how those experiences ultimately led her out of Christianity and into shamanism before a slow, painful return to a simpler faith. Eve describes the psychological impact of trance-based worship, healing crusades, prophetic art, and deliverance practices, drawing parallels between modern charismatic experiences and ancient ritual techniques designed to suspend critical thinking.
Together, John and Eve examine how figures associated with healing revivals and deliverance culture shaped expectations of miracles, identity, and spiritual success, and why those systems often collapse under real-world suffering, unanswered prayers, and unmet promises. The conversation explores cult markers, mind-control techniques, loaded language, and the long process of rebuilding faith after spiritual disillusionment, offering insight for anyone questioning charismatic theology or recovering from high-control religious environments.
00:00 – Opening music & intro
00:30 – Welcome and guest introduction (Eve)
01:15 – Eve’s background and conversion in Mexico City
03:30 – Immersion in Charismatic culture and ministry training
05:30 – Randy Clark, healing crusades, and early concerns
07:30 – Healing vs. deliverance practices
09:30 – Transition into shamanism and trance-based spirituality
12:00 – Mind control, trance induction, and ritual parallels
15:00 – Repeating patterns across spiritual movements
18:00 – Personal cost: unanswered prayers and disillusionment
21:30 – Leaving Christianity and cult dynamics
24:00 – Slow return to Christianity
27:00 – Reframing faith around simplicity and love
31:00 – Identity recovery and healing from indoctrination
34:30 – Beliefs then vs. now
37:30 – Studying cults, abuse, and discernment
40:30 – Advice for those in deliverance ministries
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Together, John and Eve examine how figures associated with healing revivals and deliverance culture shaped expectations of miracles, identity, and spiritual success, and why those systems often collapse under real-world suffering, unanswered prayers, and unmet promises. The conversation explores cult markers, mind-control techniques, loaded language, and the long process of rebuilding faith after spiritual disillusionment, offering insight for anyone questioning charismatic theology or recovering from high-control religious environments.
00:00 – Opening music & intro
00:30 – Welcome and guest introduction (Eve)
01:15 – Eve’s background and conversion in Mexico City
03:30 – Immersion in Charismatic culture and ministry training
05:30 – Randy Clark, healing crusades, and early concerns
07:30 – Healing vs. deliverance practices
09:30 – Transition into shamanism and trance-based spirituality
12:00 – Mind control, trance induction, and ritual parallels
15:00 – Repeating patterns across spiritual movements
18:00 – Personal cost: unanswered prayers and disillusionment
21:30 – Leaving Christianity and cult dynamics
24:00 – Slow return to Christianity
27:00 – Reframing faith around simplicity and love
31:00 – Identity recovery and healing from indoctrination
34:30 – Beliefs then vs. now
37:30 – Studying cults, abuse, and discernment
40:30 – Advice for those in deliverance ministries
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Eve, former member of Charismania.
00:48Eve, it's good to have you on and to share your story.
00:51You and I have been emailing back and forth, and I'll be honest with you, there's many things that you brought up that were interesting to me,
00:59some of which we can talk about, some of which we can't, unfortunately.
01:02But you were mentioning Randy Clark and some other things, and I'm just, like I said, I'm very excited to have you on.
01:09Maybe if you could just take a moment, tell everybody a little bit about yourself and your journey through Charismania.
01:15All right, thanks. It's great to be here.
01:17So I am a fine artist. I moved to Mexico City to go to grad school, and, you know, I grew up in an atheist household.
01:28We did go to church a little when we were kids because we were Southern, but my parents were very atheist.
01:34Nobody ever mentioned Jesus, never knew anything about it.
01:38And later on, I ended up moving to Mexico City to go to grad school for sculpture and painting.
01:47And, you know, I always felt myself very lost.
01:51I had a lot of struggles going up.
01:53I'm not going to go into it, but, you know, let's just say it was pretty intense.
01:58And so I was dating this banker, and he said, in Mexico City, he goes, oh, I miss my church.
02:06And I thought, well, that's weird.
02:08I only heard people say how horrible church is, horrible church people.
02:11So I said, oh, can you take me there?
02:13So he took me there, and it was a giant church called Amistad Cristiana, Christian Friendship in Mexico City.
02:20And I went in, and you could just really feel the spirit.
02:23You know, there was this atmosphere of, I mean, I suppose it was the Holy Spirit and, you know, these beautiful songs.
02:33And I was really just instantly converted.
02:36And it was really cool kind of to convert in Mexico City because they're so into it, you know, because they don't have a history like America.
02:45They don't have just like casual churchgoers.
02:48Everybody is, you know, on fire and studying the Bible, studying everything.
02:53So, you know, I love that you could go to so many classes.
02:57There were like grad school classes here.
02:59You know, it was a lot of deep studying.
03:01And they had just opened like a school, Bible college, that was a branch of Christ for the nations.
03:10But in Spanish, where I learned about miracles, faith, healing.
03:14I was really into that, you know, from the get-go and evangelism.
03:20And I was a practicer.
03:22I was that person that would get the groups together like, come on, let's go.
03:25Let's go heal people.
03:26Let's pray people.
03:27You know, if we're going to do this, let's do it right.
03:29And, you know, if Jesus can do all these crazy, incredible miracles, like, why wouldn't we want to do that?
03:36So I was very involucrado, you know, involved.
03:42And I ended up coming back to the States, to the Washington, D.C. area, where I did find a church called The Gate, which was very, very ultra charismatic, very small.
03:52And I was this person who, I was single, I'm an artist, so I had plenty of free time.
03:58I was going everywhere to see everyone.
04:01You know, if there's a prophet or somebody, you know, I've seen them, I've gone to it.
04:07And, you know, I was, now looking back, I realized, you know, it was like a path into mental illness.
04:15Not that I was saying to begin with, you know, but you're really just going off on this, like, ecstatic worship, these great feelings, and this hope of, like, anything can happen.
04:28And so I was doing that at one point, and I'm an artist, and I was doing prophetic art.
04:37I had a prophetic art group.
04:38And we used to go to Randy Clark.
04:40They had up in Harrisburg, which is just a few hours from here.
04:44We would go up to the apostles, Voice of the Apostles, with Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker, everybody, Randy Clark.
04:54And at that time, this is literally, like, 50, 20 years ago, like, the ultimate, like, the best thing you could do is go to Brazil with Randy Clark.
05:04You know, they had these huge healing crusades.
05:07So I did go on one of those and other stuff involving Randy Clark.
05:13I read all of his books.
05:14I really liked him.
05:16And so I was in Brazil.
05:19You know, we were doing prayers for people in giant stadiums.
05:23You know, as I mentioned before we started recording, I was really excited to get you on to talk about many things.
05:30Again, some things we can't talk about.
05:32But the Randy Clark episodes.
05:35I also have books by Randy Clark back in this room back here.
05:39And I've studied some of the deliverance things that he's teaching.
05:42And it's kind of funny because for people who aren't aware of the history building up to Randy Clark and many others who are doing the same things, you look at it and you think this is something new.
05:55This is fresh.
05:56It's the spirit of God moving down.
05:58But when you realize that this thing has been going on for decades, long before Randy Clark, probably before he was even born, there were men and women claiming to do the same kind of tricks.
06:10And each one claiming that there would be this big revival or something to the effect that this thing is going to happen before Jesus Christ comes, which is imminent.
06:20And then we're going to be the ones who are, because we're so filled with the spirit, we're the ones who's bringing in whatever it is.
06:26In some cases, it's rapture.
06:28In some cases, it's revival.
06:30When you realize that's been going on and on and on, it's almost like this broken record that continues forever.
06:35And I was just thumbing through the book one day, and I've mentioned this before, but he's got this whole section on how to cure the demon of hiccups.
06:46And I've had hiccups a few times, and I can tell you that that's not a demon.
06:50I can tell you exactly what I ate that caused it.
06:53And for me, the cure of the demon of hiccups is simply just avoid those foods and the combination of foods.
07:00But I'm really excited to talk to you more, because the deliverance stuff just fascinates me.
07:05It's like Harry Potter for adults.
07:07Yeah, it was full-on Harry Potter.
07:09And, I mean, we also, I worked at the healing room, studied the John G. Lake method and the, you know, that whole deliverance thing.
07:18We didn't do so much deliverance with the Randy Clark and the Bethel.
07:21We were just really into healing.
07:23And the thing that really gets you off is that, you know, Bill Johnson says that, you know, we're here to bring heaven to earth.
07:30So we're, you know, like bringing this, the Bible to life, and that God wants everyone to be healed.
07:37And that's, you know, where you really veer off course, because God does not heal everyone.
07:45So how do you keep that charade up?
07:49You know, after a while, it falls apart.
07:51Yeah, it's, you know, when I'm talking deliverance and talking about the history, see, this all kind of was birthed because of the healing revival.
08:01They were combining deliverance with healing in the healing lines during the post-World War II healing revival.
08:07And that eventually evolved into what, interestingly, you mentioned Christ for the Nations.
08:12Gordon Lindsay and William Branham started teaching these deliverance seminars.
08:15And that eventually, it was done under the business entity, the Voice of Healing, which was a business entity Branham created.
08:24Gordon Lindsay eventually took it over.
08:26That evolved into Christ for the Nations.
08:29But they were basically teaching that deliverance and healing were really one and the same.
08:34So it's interesting when you separate them.
08:36I've heard other people do this.
08:38They separate them because it has really evolved into its own thing, and it is much like Harry Potter.
08:44When you think of healing and you think of deliverance, what do you see as the differences between the two?
08:51Well, healing is more, you know, like positive force, you know, like the way we used to do it.
08:57You know, we just have that energy, you know, the Holy Spirit healing, people getting well.
09:04And then deliverance was more when people come to you with problems.
09:10I mean, yeah, we would throw in, you know, get rid of this demon and that demon.
09:14You know, you're just winging it and, you know, doing whatever comes to your mind because, you know, it's the Holy Spirit, LOL.
09:22Well, so, I mean, the deliverance, we had, we had notebooks, we had, you know, all the things you had to go through, cutting the soul ties, there's that and the other.
09:36And let me just throw in here, after I lost my faith, I became a shaman, a medicine woman, and I even went to shaman school because that's, I was just Harry Potter'd out.
09:48I mean, that was my life, and I continued it without Jesus, and it was exactly the same stuff.
09:54I was like, okay, in shamanism, we just use a rattle.
09:57In healing and ministry, we do speaking in tongues, but it was almost exactly the same.
10:05Yeah, I've talked to other people.
10:07I've actually talked to shamans in other countries on excursions.
10:11It's not like I went to see them, but I also, I was looking at this thinking,
10:15well, that's not much different from what I left.
10:19And when you go back to its original roots, it's kind of funny because they both really stem from the same type of thing.
10:25It isn't the same type of healing that Jesus does in the Bible, definitely.
10:29But, so that's interesting.
10:31You've mentioned, even in your email, you had left Christianity and later came back.
10:37Let's talk a little bit more about that.
10:38When you left Christianity, what other similarities did you see between the shamanism and the deliverance and the healing?
10:47Well, you know what?
10:48When you're a shaman, the guy tells you, oh, we were together in a past life,
10:54which reminds me of everything Mike Bickle was saying.
10:56Like, you use, you use that, I mean, any kind of predator takes that stuff and runs.
11:06You know, it's, you know, in the Christianity, it's like, oh, you're really my true wife and my true soulmate, you know,
11:13and in shamanism is, you know, some other stuff.
11:16But we used to do sweat lodges.
11:18I was even a sweat lodge conductor.
11:20Like, you just are getting into this ecstatic trance.
11:23It's the trance state, and I was really gotten good at being in a trance state after a while.
11:29So much that when I left shamanism and all that, I mean, I was so far out in the universe.
11:34Like, it's just making yourself go crazy, basically.
11:40Right.
11:40That's one of the things that not many people realize if you're not in this movement and you're on the outside looking in.
11:47And even during the, right, in the years building up to these deliverance seminars that Lindsay and Branham had that eventually evolved into Christ for the Nations,
11:56Branham was teaching people how to get into a trance.
11:58And he openly talked about it.
12:00He said, whenever I want to, and he would call it get in the spirit.
12:03He didn't use the word trance.
12:04But he starts talking about the chanting that he does and the beats, the repetitions that he does to get in his mental state of the prophetic, he would call it.
12:14But essentially what he's talking about is he is going through performing this ritual that leads to putting his mind in the state of a trance.
12:22And I've studied, you know, different spiritualism techniques and actually just simply mind control techniques.
12:30And what he's describing is actually broadly used in just a simple form of mind control.
12:35It's a way to separate your mind from your state of being.
12:39And once you get out of that state, then it feels spiritual.
12:43But you could use the word insanity.
12:46You can explain it many different ways with many different words.
12:49But essentially it is a, it's an experience where you have taken your mind out of the state of logically thinking.
12:56Yeah, you're dissociating from, you know, reality.
13:00And if you're imaginative like myself, you know, you can put anything in there you want, you know.
13:06I want to just mention really quick last night.
13:09So I know I was coming here.
13:10I haven't listened to Randy Clark for 20 years.
13:13So in the middle of the night I woke up, I listened to one of his YouTubes.
13:17And it was so, Randy Clark is so disturbing to me now because he's very subtle.
13:23He doesn't come out like, oh, it's that guy with the blue eyes, you know, name it, claim it.
13:28Like he's very, he's very subtle.
13:31And I could, I've studied also cults mind control for years.
13:35I've been a victim of mind control in other areas and by other kinds of people.
13:39But he will lead you in, in a very calm, very sounding, very humble, like very low key.
13:49Oh yeah, this person.
13:50And he'll, he'll just throw in some miracles that happen.
13:53He'll throw in some of this little by little mentioning this person or that person.
13:58And then like, I could just track him going to starting to say, and, and you may start
14:04to feel, some people may start to feel shaking, you know, some people may start to feel this.
14:10And I guess he was leading you into that.
14:12And I, I was, you know, led into that at one time with Randy Clark, I had like shaking
14:18for weeks.
14:19I don't even know what that was.
14:20One of my friend's wives did go insane after getting that.
14:25It's in India that I call a Shaktipat, like after getting that anointing of that very
14:31heavy dose.
14:32Like when you listen to Randy Clark, even last night, after everything I know, I study
14:36your podcasts and your books religiously.
14:39Every, even after everything I know was kind of intrigued.
14:42It's like, oh, there's more, you know, there's more from God.
14:45I can have more.
14:46Why am I settling for this boring life, you know, of a regular person?
14:50And, um, it was intense.
14:53And you could feel like, yeah, towards the end, a couple of people would start, they
14:56call it manifesting, you know, when you're making all these crazy noises and falling
15:01over.
15:01And, um, I could just, you could just see him leading into that, like very, like NLP, like
15:08he's a very good mind control.
15:11And we did read William Branham's books too, uh, that he was selling those.
15:16They, I know I read them, but they always seem kind of weird.
15:18They're, they're really kooky.
15:21If you've never, like I grew up on it, so it all sounds familiar.
15:24And actually hearing the screaming voice that sounds like Hitler screaming at you, it's
15:30comforting to people who are raised on it because I was raised from birth on this, right?
15:34But just somebody on the outside, you're looking, thinking, what in the world is this?
15:38What are they doing?
15:39I've been putting you in the automatic trance.
15:42Exactly.
15:42He's going through those.
15:43It's a very rhythmic speaking.
15:46They, he calms you down and you're talking about the, the techniques of mind control.
15:51He tells these familiar stories that everybody during that era were comfortable with in today's
15:57world.
15:57They're actually, you know, they're unfamiliar.
15:59I'm not, I wasn't raised in as, as a hillbilly in a log cabin, but there were many people who
16:04were.
16:05So he tells these comforting stories to just kind of get you to calm, relax your nerves.
16:10And then he starts speaking in this slow, rhythmic, rhythmic beat until the climax of the sermon.
16:17He's just pounding that beat, pound, pound, pound, and your heart's racing at the same
16:21time.
16:21So when the heart matches the beat of the speech, that's whenever he can really hijack
16:26your mind.
16:27And sadly, that's what happened.
16:29What's really interesting is I, I go back and forth as to whether these guys are trained
16:34in this or whether they just learn by example, but you find what he's doing, not to the same
16:40extremes.
16:40I wouldn't say that, you know, Bill Johnson sounds nothing like Hitler, but many of the
16:45same techniques exist.
16:47And where does that come from?
16:48Is he doing it because of, you know, are they passing this down?
16:52Are they learning it from each other or where does it come from?
16:56But many of the elements that cause people to shut off critical thinking exist in all
17:03of these types of ministries.
17:05And then whenever you bring in, like, as I said, I was fascinated with the things you
17:10were telling me before we recorded.
17:12When you start thinking about shamanism and those beats and those trances, go to, if you've
17:18ever been on vacation and you go to one of these excursions where you can actually visit
17:22a shaman camp and it, it all looks like show because we're from, from America, you go down
17:27and you think that's, that's not real.
17:29But when you stop and think it actually is real, the people are doing these chants and
17:33they've done it for centuries, right?
17:36You have to believe that at some point one missionary went and experienced this and saw
17:41the power of it and came back and started using it.
17:44So when I, when I started talking with you about, you know, Clark and shamanism, some of
17:51the other things, I really wanted to see how far that went because I'm starting to see
17:55patterns that emerged, you know, from, from every single culture that I look at, these
18:00patterns are coming back in and it's being rebranded as Christianity.
18:04Okay.
18:05So I was a Christian, I was a missionary.
18:09So I was very good at Spanish.
18:10And also I got into this prophetic dance.
18:13I had prophetic groups and I used to feel like after I got that, I just only think of it
18:19Shaktipat, the, the anointing from Randy Clark, like all of a sudden I could, I, everything
18:25was like super amplified.
18:26Like I could see demons and I, I just was in a really different state.
18:33And, um, so I was enjoying it.
18:36I felt good because I had had a lot of, uh, just, you know, very low self-esteem, very,
18:45a lot of, you know, issues, you know, psychological, social stuff like that.
18:50So I loved having something to completely commit to and that I could just show up and be part
18:56of this group.
18:56Like I didn't have to be accepted or anything, but in the whole, the thing about the Randy
19:01Clark is I was listening to him last night, he's talking this name, that name, the other
19:05name.
19:06And it wasn't until like only mentioned Jesus once.
19:08It's like, you know, I, I was pretty good at it.
19:11So I started to feel like, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm one of the magic people and my art
19:17is magic.
19:17And, you know, it was kind of like going up in the ranks.
19:22And then my nephew died suddenly.
19:26And me and my friend, we prayed for him for like four or five days.
19:29He did not come back to life.
19:31I had had a few bonafiable miracles, like bonafiable miracles in my days of healing and
19:38praying for people, which is why I kept doing it.
19:40And then a lot of people, you never see them again.
19:42So you don't know, did they get healed or not?
19:44And some people definitely didn't.
19:47But, um, then I turned to 45.
19:50So all these years I'm praying for a husband and for a family.
19:54And if you go to church, you know, the pastor's always up in the front, me and my wife, me and
19:58my kids, you know?
20:00So as a single woman aging, it's extremely painful to, to live this, especially if you
20:09have been taught, you know, asking you shall receive, nothing is impossible.
20:13I mean, I was like, even way older than that.
20:16And I was like, still thinking, Oh, I can, you know, anything can happen.
20:21You know, Sarah had a baby when she was 98, you know, like, I had to wasted most of my
20:26life, helping and bringing people into these churches, working for free, paying all my money
20:32and being a magical person, but my, my own life, my career, my, you know, no marriage,
20:39no money.
20:41And, uh, I just was like, either God is not real or I don't understand God.
20:46And so I left Christianity because also I kept trying to go back to the gate and my
20:52friends.
20:52And I would try to tell them, Oh, our theology devolved to that.
20:56Everyone is saved.
20:57Now I remember that's, you know, once one brick comes out of your faith thing that you've,
21:04uh, you know, the construction that, that, that you have in your Christianity, like the
21:08whole thing just crumbled and people didn't really want to talk to me.
21:12They're just like, Oh, Eve, you're so anointed.
21:14You need to, you know, and God's going to bring you a man just like you so anointed.
21:18And, you know, like it just was such a BS.
21:23And I, so I couldn't go to church anymore because everybody was so annoying.
21:27Nobody would have a conversation with me about the things that I observed.
21:31So when I left Christianity, I thought this is just like leaving a cult.
21:36So I kind of thought Christianity was a cult.
21:38And it wasn't until I found your videos 20 years later, I was like, Oh, it was a cult.
21:44Uh, it was definitely, I was in very cultish environments.
21:49And, uh, so I just left Christianity and, uh, you know, went along my way.
21:55And, uh, after being really super crazy in the shamanism, the, uh, medicine woman, I was
22:03building medicine wheels and living very much Harry Potter life.
22:07Then I became a Muslim, which kind of was better than all that.
22:11Cause at least you didn't really, I liked the people cause they weren't drinking.
22:15They were family oriented.
22:16They weren't into mumbo jumbo.
22:19So I wasn't like a true Muslim.
22:21I never really believed because after that Christianity, I was like, I will never be a
22:25total believer again in anything because I got so far off the path.
22:32And, uh, anyway, some years later, uh, you know, I came back into Christianity very slowly,
22:37you know, very, very slowly.
22:40And now I'm, I, I'm a Christian again.
22:43Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
22:48modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
22:54movements into the new apostolic reformation?
22:56You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
23:02william-branham.org.
23:04On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
23:09Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,
23:16and digital versions of each book.
23:18You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
23:24movements.
23:25If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
23:30button at the top.
23:31And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
23:36listening to or watching.
23:37On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
23:43So you've talked about your journey from Christianity or pseudo-Christianity into shamanism
23:49and many of the similarities, and then talked about leaving.
23:53So interestingly, here's something that I can share with you publicly, but it's the private
23:58story of many other people.
24:00Others have shared with me the reasons why they left Christianity.
24:03And often, whenever they share their stories, some of them, you could not even tell that
24:08they've left because of the way that they talk.
24:10But they share many similar things.
24:13And what you're describing openly, they described in private and probably would never say.
24:19But whenever you're in this type of ministry, your focus is not really so much on the good.
24:25Yes, you have the things that do the trances.
24:27Yes, there are healings.
24:28There are other things.
24:29But if you really think about the essence of what's being taught, it isn't the good that
24:34they're focusing on.
24:35It's the demons underneath the hood that you're being delivered from.
24:38That's the focus.
24:40And so instead of a positive outlook, you're thinking, well, my gosh, there's demons everywhere.
24:44And so you're just filled with this negative energy flowing throughout the entire movement.
24:50I looked back.
24:52When I first heard this, I kind of didn't believe it.
24:55And I started thinking back through all of the sermons that I heard growing up.
24:59And it was true.
25:00The focus was more on the devil than it was Jesus Christ and how the devil might get you
25:05rather than Jesus Christ will protect you from it.
25:07And whenever you're in that mindset where there's demons everywhere, God's not going to protect
25:12you, you need this minister to protect you, and then you find out that they won't give
25:17you the time of day, well, why would I stay in this religion?
25:20This whole thing doesn't make sense.
25:22There's no protection here.
25:23I'll go where there's protection.
25:25So you see all of these people who actually leave Christianity because of this.
25:29Some of them have come back, but many of them, unfortunately, they have been branded in
25:36such a way that they picture all of Christianity to be this thing that's being taught.
25:41And it is truly different.
25:43The gospel of this deliverance thing is different from the gospel of Jesus Christ.
25:47They're two separate things.
25:49So I'm interested to hear your story because you're one who has opened up, and I thank you
25:54for that.
25:55Somebody who's opened up about leaving, what you experienced, the similarities.
26:00Now let's talk a bit about coming back because if you're willing to open up about this, the
26:06ones who have gone through that journey and left and then started to come back, it's
26:11actually really, really difficult for them to come back because of the way that they have
26:16been framed.
26:17And in their mind, they're framed this version of Christianity that is Harry Potter-ism.
26:22It's not the gospel.
26:24So let's talk about coming back.
26:26So I mean, it's so funny because when I did first come back, I was so sad.
26:30I was like, oh, I wasted my whole life being out in the world.
26:34And now looking back, I'm glad I was because I really had to just clean that out.
26:40And you know what?
26:41It doesn't take, it takes a really long time.
26:46So yeah, I just somehow, I mean, it's kind of why I believe in God even more now because
26:53somehow I got back and I could just feel God kind of pulling on me.
26:58And since I was a Muslim, I thought, you know, Jesus was idolatry, you know, Israel idolatry,
27:04you know, so I would just at first just listen to music that would talk about God, but not
27:10Jesus, you know.
27:11So it took a really long time.
27:14And I live in a city and I'm independent.
27:16So, you know, I show up here, I show up there.
27:19I still don't have a church that I like around here.
27:22And I started listening to bluegrass music because they're more like, you die, you go
27:27to heaven.
27:28And that's kind of my Christianity.
27:30And that's all I care about, you know, you die, you go to heaven.
27:33I saw a meme the other day.
27:35It said, heaven exists, but this isn't it.
27:39You know, like, like if I hear somebody say, oh, today's the day of your breakthrough.
27:43Nothing is impossible.
27:44You know, and it's like, you get old enough and you've been through enough stuff.
27:48You're like, yeah, well, you know, you know, it's people, it's marketing, you know, it's
27:55motivational speaking.
27:57So here I am and I feel happy and everything's going great.
28:03You know what I mean?
28:03And if I don't feel happy, it's fine because I don't need that breakthrough.
28:07Like what you're talking about the demons, you know, when people are sick, they say, oh,
28:11it's because maybe there's a part of your life where you still have sin.
28:13You know, and that's how the demon can get in.
28:16And, you know, I don't think about any of that stuff.
28:19I am so like, at one point, even nothing to do with religion.
28:23I'm like, I'm just going to work.
28:25I'm going to make money.
28:26I'm going to clean my house.
28:28I'm going to do everything that a normal person does.
28:30And I study normal people and see what they do.
28:33You know, it's funny you say that because I have, I've seen both sides of it.
28:38Somebody who's experienced unchurching and going through that process and then coming
28:44back, they get it.
28:46But many people who are trying to corral the sheep and prevent people from taking that
28:52first step out of their journey, the deconstruction phase, they see the whole thing is as evil.
28:57It's Satan.
28:58Basically, it's like the same type of deliverance thing in a different way and coming from people
29:04who were never experiencing this deliverance type ministry.
29:07But when you deconstruct, you're basically deconstructing a false god.
29:11And you have to basically wipe the entire slate clean, start over with nothing, and then rebuild.
29:17For me, and it looks different from every person that I've talked to, but for me, the way it
29:22worked is this, I was reading the Bible and I came to the passage in the New Testament where
29:27Jesus said, the entire law and the prophets is summed up in this thing, love God above all else,
29:33love your neighbor as yourself.
29:34I can't remember the exact book, verse that that came from.
29:38But anyway, I was thinking through that and logically speaking, what he's describing is,
29:45when he talks about the law and the prophets, he's basically saying the entire Old Testament.
29:49So if you read the Old Testament, it's summed up in this, love God,
29:52love your neighbor.
29:53And he's telling this to people who are being just heavily oppressed by the Pharisees and
30:00they had lawyers back then, which were people that would read through the different statutes
30:06of the law and find, how are you breaking this?
30:08We need to correct this, much like the legalistic systems that exist today.
30:13And I was thinking about that and I thought, well, that makes a heck of a lot more sense than
30:17what I was brought up with.
30:19Jesus is saying the exact opposite of what I was brought up with.
30:23And that's exactly where I started.
30:24I didn't start with anything else.
30:27This sounds crazy, but I did not even start with the basic elements of what is Christianity.
30:32I just simply started with that.
30:34And I started just adding things back one by one as I would examine it and think, does this make sense?
30:41Does this match the pattern that Jesus said, love God, love your neighbors, or does it not?
30:46And I would just continue building and basically rebuilding my identity is what was happening.
30:52Because when you're in these cults, they rob you of your identity and they want to put the cult's identity inside of you
30:59so that you see their worldview, their gospel, their version of everything.
31:04And I didn't want this.
31:05And so as we were going through different mainstream churches, I tried a few of them.
31:11I could detect whenever they're going off into the doctrines of whatever is the mainstream church I was in.
31:17And then whenever they were sticking with just the basics that's in the Bible, well, I just ignored the doctrine part.
31:23I want to know the basics.
31:25And what's interesting is if you do that and you go to different churches and you weed out all of the extra doctrines,
31:33they all have the same basics.
31:36They're just adding things to it.
31:38It's like adding these weights on people.
31:39Some of it good, some of it bad.
31:41So for me, that journey was rebuilding myself, my identity.
31:46What did that journey look like for you?
31:48Yeah, so it was like three years ago.
31:50So also I was a crime victim and I got a horrible brain injury and I went through all kinds of stuff with that.
31:59So sometimes my things are a blur because of that.
32:03But, you know, yeah, I don't feel like I need to believe anything.
32:09I don't have to force myself to believe anything.
32:11That's what you do, you know, in these cults that we get into.
32:15You're like, well, that doesn't make sense.
32:16And then somehow you make yourself make it make sense.
32:19So something doesn't make sense with me is like crossed off until further notice.
32:26And unfortunately, I mean, you know, and I've learned this from you about being a stage show.
32:32I was in another church for a year, which was not charismatic, but it was a stage show with lots of money, lots of power.
32:38And it was just rotten under the hood, you know, and everybody's at this fake humility, you know, like, oh, we're just these nice people from Texas.
32:49And I worked at the Red Lobster.
32:51That was this church I went to here, you know, like it is so fake.
32:55And it's very hard because of the money, you know, it's not like just Christians getting together, hanging out, which is what I'm only interested in.
33:04It's just getting to know people.
33:06I don't want to really if some guy standing up at the front, I really I'm just kind of done.
33:12You know, I have a hard time with any of them, except there's a few that I like that they're just very humble.
33:18Yet, maybe when they get more popular, you know, they're going to get totally corrupted.
33:22But there's a few churches, like little tiny churches in South Carolina that I like, like little churches that take an hour.
33:31They ask, like the prayers of the people, you know, keep a simple Lord's Prayer.
33:36I'm really into the Lord's Prayer.
33:37That's my only thing because Jesus did say, when you pray, pray like this.
33:42So I do the Lord's Prayer, but I don't say thy kingdom come.
33:46I don't think it means we're bringing heaven to earth.
33:48I don't know what it means, but, you know, just try to like give us a day or daily bread.
33:54That's my Christianity basically end.
33:57Yeah, and I want to pause right there because what you just said, most people are going to miss it.
34:02This is actually important.
34:03When you have been indoctrinated with loaded language that means entirely different things than the Bible says,
34:09even in things like the Lord's Prayer, when you're reading through that,
34:12the moment you hit that indoctrinated loaded language, the best way to overcome the programming is to just eliminate that from your being for a period of time.
34:23There are passages in the Bible that I simply, as I'm reading, I will skip them entirely because it's so deeply rooted in my loaded language that's programmed in my head.
34:33It sets off all of these triggers, and it's very painful.
34:36I've actually got up and walked out of services because they read some wonderful passage that most people were just really enjoying,
34:43but for me it was painful, and that's what these cults have done to our heads.
34:48And I hate to dinner up, but that is actually a very important thing that you just said.
34:53I mean, they stole my life, you know, and all of my friends I have from back then, you know,
35:00I try to tell them and send them different information, and they refuse to, you know, they can't.
35:08Their whole, I realize their whole self is constructed around that, and they can't think that, you know, Mike Bickle is a bad guy,
35:16you know, or that we weren't meant to just sit around and, like, be in love with Jesus, you know, all day long or whatever.
35:24And, yeah, I realized my whole life, I mean, I was mad.
35:30I mean, I still am mad.
35:32That's why I'm willing to talk about anything and come on here because it's just wrong.
35:37And, you know, if you don't get into one kind of cult, you get into another.
35:41You know, it's just rough out there.
35:45And Christianity and other, you know, there's so many other cults, too.
35:49So you left Christianity, you went into shamanism, then you came back.
35:56Let's talk a little bit about the differences of what you believed about Christianity back then and what you believe about it now.
36:03How different is it for you?
36:04Well, you know, it's completely different because it's just very simple, you know.
36:12It's just very simple.
36:14And, you know, I never really understood the death on the cross.
36:18Like, I always thought it was pretty weird, so I just avoided that.
36:22But so do all these churches, you know.
36:24So you're like, because it is weird.
36:26I mean, it's pretty weird.
36:27Why would God come up with that, you know.
36:29So, but now I do believe in it, you know, as much as I believe in anything.
36:36And, you know, it's just more basic.
36:40Like, Jesus died, and now I go to different churches.
36:43I kind of end up at some kind of Baptist stuff.
36:46But it's like, oh, we're forgiven.
36:48We're washed clean.
36:49I don't have to clean myself every day by speaking in tongues for an hour or whatever people are doing.
36:56And also humility.
36:58That's the biggest thing.
36:59I'm not trying to go up in the ranks to be super anointed, to be impressive with my healing gifts, you know.
37:06Or be impressed by others.
37:08Or, you know, look at these incredible people, you know.
37:13Now, and I was re-watching Heidi Baker the other day, and it was just embarrassing.
37:17And these people don't even make sense once you get your brain back.
37:22I mean, Randy Clark made sense.
37:25That's what was scary.
37:26But most of them make no sense.
37:28And it's just, it's completely different.
37:32I do actually just believe that, you know.
37:35We're doing our best, and we don't have to try so hard.
37:38That's the worst part.
37:40These are works-based religion.
37:42You know, the more I pray, the more I heal people, the more I evangelize,
37:47the more I get rid of all my inner badness.
37:52It's, it's, it's, it's, that's, like you always say this a lot.
37:55You are the God.
37:56You know, I'm the person who can control all this stuff.
37:59And now it's just like, well, God made me this way.
38:02I do my best in trust that, you know, I'm forgiven.
38:07I'm clean.
38:08I don't have to worry about if I did some yoga.
38:12Am I going to get a demon?
38:15You know.
38:15Of course, I understand, you know, cults and religions,
38:19so I don't get into the weirdo yoga.
38:22And I don't, you know, think that that's going to solve all my problems.
38:26You know, my problems are not going to get solved.
38:28I mean, basically, I guess that's my takeaway.
38:31You know, we're here.
38:32We die.
38:33That's why the plus is like, well, you know, you die.
38:36I, best case scenario, you go to heaven, you see your loved ones.
38:42I mean, you know, and then just try to do whatever work that I'm here,
38:48you know, whatever's in front of me.
38:50So I'm really curious, as I've mentioned,
38:53it's really exciting me to talk to somebody who's willing to open up
38:56about leaving and going into something like shamanism and coming back.
39:01What were the things that made you wake up
39:04and realize that even that was incorrect?
39:07Have you studied anything that helped you in your journey
39:10or were there things that you studied
39:12after having been involved with shamanism?
39:14What did you do to come out of it?
39:16I think it's just that I was broke and unmarried
39:19and my career wasn't going anywhere.
39:21Like, I gave everything a thousand percent effort.
39:25And I was into manifesting and, oh, I did earth healing with medicine wheels.
39:31I used to be the woman.
39:32I, as a woman of two medicine men in a row,
39:34I learned a lot.
39:37I mean, it was very interesting, frankly.
39:39A lot of people who leave and go through the journey that you've gone on,
39:43they get deep into studying about cults
39:45and just looking at the similarities between what they had come out of
39:50and the other cults.
39:52It really helps them in their journey.
39:53Did you do anything like this?
39:54I studied cults forever.
39:57Like, as soon as, you know, YouTube came out
40:00and, you know, I did the Amish, the Scientology, all of the cults.
40:05And I also studied a lot of abusive behavior
40:08because also I, my last relationship was like so long ago,
40:12but it was this guy who did like dark NLP,
40:15which is, you know, an abusive relationship and a cult is,
40:19they all do the same stuff.
40:22You know, they have to fool you
40:24into thinking you're little and they're big
40:27and they know and you don't know
40:29and you better do what they say or else.
40:33But, you know, I was never in like a physical abuse,
40:36but I have studied it so much
40:40that I can just literally just spot it like a mile away,
40:43which is hard because it's going on all, everywhere, you know.
40:48And the most important thing to me is like,
40:51if I'm somewhere where I can't ask a question
40:53and be respected, I mean, that's like the number one sign.
40:59You know, if people just brush over you
41:01and just give you the same pat answer, you know, every time,
41:04it's like, oh, what's that, you know?
41:08What would you say,
41:09and I'm not going to name specific ministries
41:11because, you know, each one is independent,
41:14but looking at deliverance ministry as a whole
41:17and after having studied cults,
41:19what would you say are the similarities
41:20or the, I guess, the markers,
41:23the signs of a cult that you see
41:24in the deliverance ministries?
41:26I mean, the whole thing is cultish
41:28because you're just being led away from logic,
41:32little by little by little,
41:33into this imaginary world
41:36where unfortunately you can get just enough affirmation
41:41or just enough miracles
41:43or just enough positive information
41:46to convince yourself that it's real.
41:48So, I mean, anybody, yeah,
41:54and it's very un-Christian
41:55and, you know, anything that's a cult
41:58is going to be like,
41:59there's something wrong with you
42:00and you need me to help you
42:03and that's what these ministries are all doing
42:06and even if I'm helping other people,
42:09I'm still needing help
42:10and, you know,
42:13you feel like you're pretty good
42:14once you got rid of a lot of your soul ties,
42:16this, that, and the other,
42:16but you're really not.
42:18You're still waiting for your breakthrough.
42:20If I hear anyone ever say that word again,
42:22I think I'm going to get up and...
42:24Yeah, it's crazy.
42:25There are so many people
42:27that are caught up in it
42:28and so many people that don't realize
42:29that it is a different religion.
42:32It's a, it is much like shamanism to me
42:34after having studied both.
42:36What would you,
42:37what advice would you give people
42:38who are trapped in that mindset
42:40that believe that
42:41this deliverance ministry is of God?
42:44What advice would you give them?
42:46Personally, I would study all of your work.
42:48That's how I really came out of it
42:50because even when I came back to Christianity,
42:52I started listening to Derek Prince
42:53and my father was dying
42:54and I was casting out demons.
42:56Luckily, he didn't become a Christian
42:58before he died.
42:59But, you know, you have to study.
43:01Like, I'll study hour after hour after hour
43:04because, you know, this is conditioning.
43:07We've been conditioned
43:08and even now, like this music today,
43:11I just was like,
43:12I'm going to listen to Bethel music
43:13and see, you know, what it is.
43:14And it's, of course,
43:15it's all songs that I know.
43:16It's great music, you know?
43:17So I'm like, you know,
43:20you have to, in this day and age,
43:22just be self-aware
43:24and intelligent enough
43:25to investigate everything,
43:28everybody,
43:30and don't be fooled, you know?
43:32Because everybody wants your money
43:35and your time and your attention.
43:38And you need to give it to yourself,
43:42you know,
43:43and build your own life up
43:44in a normal way.
43:45Because, you know,
43:46God did create us to be here
43:48in this normal, you know,
43:50brick and stones world.
43:52If you could go back in time,
43:54back whenever you were,
43:56before you had left
43:57and went into shamanism,
43:59right at the point
44:00whenever you were getting
44:01so disenchanted
44:02with that version of Christianity,
44:05if you go back
44:06and give yourself some advice
44:08for the journey ahead,
44:09what advice would you give yourself?
44:10Yeah, I mean,
44:12I think just to hold steady,
44:14I mean, I was so upset at that time.
44:17And, you know,
44:18I was so had it.
44:19But, no, I can't.
44:23There's nobody you could talk to.
44:25I mean, even now,
44:26just to go even normal churches,
44:28people will just kind of spew
44:30their doctrine at you, you know?
44:34Like, it's, I don't know.
44:37I couldn't give myself advice.
44:38I mean, I wish I had just learned math
44:40and learned how to manage money,
44:42basically, you know?
44:44Because a lot of my whole life
44:45was trying to be successful
44:47and to live this great,
44:49you know, whatever kind of life
44:50I thought I wanted
44:51and I thought that was a way
44:52of getting it.
44:54So even just getting healed,
44:57you know, even from depression
45:00or whatever it is I used to have,
45:02I mean, that music
45:03is very healing in the beginning
45:05and it's very positive.
45:07So I used to listen to it,
45:08like, 24-7.
45:10Christian, you know,
45:11I always need that positive.
45:12But then you realize,
45:14you know, just like,
45:16I'm like a stoic now,
45:17you know, like, just,
45:19you know,
45:21cleanse your fists
45:21and go through the hard times
45:23and just be a person,
45:26you know?
45:27Just because I do feel like
45:30I wasted most of my life
45:32in this crap, frankly.
45:34You know, it's painful.
45:36You know, and the only reason
45:36I can get out
45:37is that I have the ability
45:38to live in pain,
45:42you know?
45:42Because a lot of my friends
45:43and people I know,
45:44they can't even begin
45:47to fathom that their whole life,
45:50you know,
45:50decades and decades
45:51has been a lie.
45:53I mean,
45:54that is,
45:55that's not easy,
45:57you know?
45:57It's hard.
45:58It definitely is.
45:59Well, thank you so much
46:00for sharing your story.
46:01I know that there will be
46:02a lot of people
46:03really interested to hear it
46:04and like I said
46:05before we started recording,
46:06I was really excited
46:07to hear more.
46:08So thank you so much
46:09for doing this.
46:10It's great to be able
46:10to share because,
46:12you know,
46:12I've been through a lot.
46:13Well, if you've enjoyed
46:14our show and you want
46:15more information
46:15or to share your story,
46:17you can check us out
46:18on the web.
46:18You can find us
46:19at william-branum.org.
46:21For more about the dark side
46:22of the new apostolic reformation,
46:24you can read
46:24Weaponized Religion
46:25from Christian Identity
46:26to the NAR.
46:28Available on Amazon,
46:29Kindle,
46:29and Audible.
46:38Guide to the NAR.
46:46For more information,
46:47Movies and LSF2 hours,
46:48you can find us
46:50at all speed by
46:54ame-branum.
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