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In this special edition of 'Chakravyuh', former army commanders Lieutenant General Raj Shukla and Lieutenant General DP Pandey addressed political allegations surrounding the 2020 India-China standoff and General Manoj Mukund Naravane's unpublished memoir, 'Four Stars of Destiny'.
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00:04Hello and welcome to a special edition of Chuck review caught in the political and strategic
00:10Chuck review is the unpublished book of former chief of army staff general Manoj Bukun Narwane
00:15four stars of destiny quoting certain passages from the unpublished memoir leader of opposition
00:21Rahul Gandhi in particular opposition leaders and some analysts in general have accused the
00:26Narendra Modi government of abdicating responsibility at the height of the India China standoff post
00:33Kalwan but was that actually the case with India having swiftly deployed about 50,000 troops tanks
00:40armored personal carriers artillery guns and howitzers along the India Tibet line of actual
00:46control and of course also mounting a QPQ or a quid pro quo operation at one time dominating the
00:54Chinese Moldo garrison did anything in the deployment or India's actions indicate that India
01:01was either in panic or indecisive let's decode this political rhetoric around a very crucial
01:08national security issue joining me on this India today's special broadcast is left general Raj Shukla
01:14former army commander a published author left general DP Pandey former Kashmir core commander
01:21and a published author Sandeep Unnithan is senior journalist and an author I'm emphasizing all four on this panel
01:28have published books and on matters military general Shukla this most hotly debated issue right now general
01:36is Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh reportedly telling general Narawane on his repeated request for clear orders in the face of
01:44perhaps four advancing Chinese tanks along the Richanla tank track post the QPQ
01:53in your appreciation sir would you see this as abdication of responsibility as is being alleged politically
01:59see certainly not and let's go back in history one or two incidents and then put this
02:09in context so I recall operational parakram
02:14general Padmarabhan when he was asked to mobilize
02:17the orders that he got from prime minister Vajpayee
02:20were ki aap chaliyye hum batayenge
02:23now that is the way politicians speak
02:26the art of generalship is to infer from the political direction what
02:32shall we say operational design you would like to enforce
02:36and general Padmanabhan took those words and created it into that whole military coercion that was Operation Parakram
02:45let's go back even further 1971 now this is military to military
02:50the eastern army commander Jagjit Singh Arora tells Sagat Singh
02:54Sagat if you reach the Meghna you will not cross it
02:57yeah
02:58and I'm quoting from the biography of general Sagat by his ADC later GOC 25 division general Randhir Singh
03:07he said moment Sagat came out he said if I reach the Meghna Randhir I'll cross it
03:13now this is interesting the night he reaches the Meghna and Sagat reaches it first
03:18Sagat was always the first
03:20General Arora rings him up and says Sagat you recall I told you not to cross the Meghna
03:25now Sagat changes his tone and Sagat says sir I'm a core commander
03:30I see opportunity beyond and Dhaka across
03:35I'm crossing at 5 a.m. tomorrow morning
03:39now if he crossed and he succeeded
03:41okay
03:42if he he crossed and if he had failed perhaps he would be being court martial
03:48so the point that I really wish to make that
03:52in these kind of conversations between say the political authority and the generalship
03:59these are not conversations between school boys they are elevated conversations between sharp minds you push envelopes
04:07there is creativity imagination you also take risks
04:11now in this context the precise it is I also I think a cultural issue
04:16I am from Uttar Pradesh if you tell me
04:22I will say this is a politician telling me that I have complete faith in you
04:27I respect your professional wisdom
04:29frankly I don't know what advice I can give you in these kind of situations
04:34you do what you deem fit do what you deem fit
04:37see I think Galwan happens in June
04:40and this incident of Kailash is in August
04:43now between Galwan and Kailash I'm sure contingency plans would have been worked out
04:49and you don't have to wait for each and every aspect on this
04:53General Pandey the armies were deployed since the face off at Penggongso and other points
04:57Galwan we lost 20 soldiers and General Pandey I believe Russian agency task quoted quoted sources
05:05saying that China lost more than 40 40 or 45 though China conceded losing just 4 including their commanding officer
05:12would anything suggest from the point that India had deployed to the time that 4 tanks were seen rising
05:19you know going up on Richanla that that you know there was panic that India was panicking
05:26or is that the perception of the opposition General Pandey
05:30no no I firstly let me just assure you of one thing that there is never a panic in our
05:37Indian context
05:38because we have seen enough firefights maybe on the on the borders
05:43ceasefires which have happened opening of guns and very heavy weapons and artillery
05:48to exchanges of jewels which are quite extensive hitting out at each other and face offs of
05:57variety of nature which have most of which by the way doesn't come out into the media because there is
06:03a certain degree of dignity in what happens and military matters are best left at where it should be
06:11but coming on to see four tanks rising up onto the range if anybody feels that Indian army
06:18is going to become perturbed about it I think it will be quite quite incorrect please understand
06:26the the implications of such a maneuver when we were already there have got today's in the in
06:33in application of elements of power any major move which takes place which have got certain
06:43issues to ramifications in the diplomatic environment in the international environment
06:47which may have economic challenges eventually the possibility of opening of fire which may result
06:55into uh maybe higher level of escalation exclamation uh escalation it is imperative that uh information
07:02moves back and forth up the channel of uh command and come through the various communication channels
07:09it is not only to inform your higher headquarters or higher ups it is also to enable them in case
07:15there are
07:15other opportunities to ensure that this escalation can be stopped well in time
07:21that uh thing can take i just want to give an example or i can just uh speculate that when
07:27you are
07:27informing upwards it also means that some levers will go calling up to the counterpart onto the other
07:33side that certain kind of a maneuver which is aggressive which is taking place uh you mean business
07:38you want to stop it is it under your control is it under your orders are you aware of it
07:42because large
07:43number of times uh actions are taken at the subtactical tactical level for which approvals and clearances
07:50are also not at the topmost level so when this dialogue happens there is very many times
07:56that the agencies which are involved are either stopped or turned away okay so that is one part
08:03uh we are just coming here to talk about the book i only want to ask you a counter question
08:08gaurav i
08:09know it goes off the script sure that today two generals of army are standing here uh should we have
08:15taken concurrence and uh from the script what are you going to be speaking here should we be censored
08:24right the bottom line is today uh we should get away from that whole idea of talking about uh certain
08:33issues which have already happened in the past and not get too worried about it but then you know why
08:38are we discussing it as journalist sandeep is because there's raging politics on the subject it's being
08:43raised uh in our parliament uh and perhaps uh you know it's not for me uh to say whether general
08:49narwani should have written this or not at a time when the standoff still continues but sandeep you and
08:54i were both reporting from laddak that time in fact i had traveled all the way to dbo during the
08:59standoff
09:00when some had claimed that ds dbo road had been interdicted bro if i remember correctly then under
09:05general harpal singh was doing a great job during the standoff they were building faster better so that more
09:11resources could be sent up wherever they would be required anything that you saw on ground suggested
09:18that there was panic in the month of either july or august well far from it gaurav i i didn't
09:25see
09:25panic uh in on our side far from it i saw resolve actually and you know the uh we were
09:32there i
09:32remember uh in uh september 2020 when we went to cover this uh build up and i think the most
09:38heartening
09:39sight uh to my mind as a military historian was the fact the indian air force was there in the
09:46theater there were fighter jets after fighter jets landing in ladakh lay airfield i remember standing
09:52there at the edge of uh lay airfield and you know uh seeing those uh it was like a air
09:57bridge from
09:57chandigarh to uh lay and i said this is not going to be 1962 again in 62 we tied the
10:03hands of the indian
10:04military we kept the air force out of the theater of conflict we did not deploy offensive air power
10:11in 2020 i was very sure that if the balloon went up the indian air force would launch against the
10:18chinese and that to my mind was the biggest sign of confidence i saw and i think the political
10:23leadership understood which is why they immediately deployed the indian air force there and of course
10:28gave uh the military leadership on the ground the complete freedom to do exactly as they thought
10:35as military commanders general shukla that's a very interesting point because sandeep and i would
10:39watch every day not just uh transport aircraft uh you know be the air bridge uh between chandigarh and
10:47lay but fighter jets landing and taking off uh from uh from the lay airfield and also exercises that were
10:53conducted x ambala in a x number of uh places in the north and we were told air force had
11:00an edge
11:01vis-a-vis china in tibet uh chinese air force in tibet and china has been carrying out salami slicing
11:07of indian territory for decades if 50 000 troops had been deployed if tanks apcs rt had been deployed uh
11:15you know we reported operation snow leopard we reported the qpq operations uh you know the chinese
11:20were advancing with clubs and barbed wires post the qpq and i had reported that the indian army
11:26had opened fire in the air which they usually do not do they fire for effect they fire to kill
11:30but this time they opened fire uh so that the chinese would not advance any further would this
11:36indicate um either panic or abdication at tactical level or at a strategic level see there is no cause
11:44for panic at all as i think dp was saying the indian military of today is very different from the
11:52indian military of 62 so i think in terms of force postures reserves mech elements air logistics we're
12:00on a very strong fitting or footing but see the issue now some of the issues that general ravine raises
12:06are also right let me just sure comment on them i personally feel that this the china study group
12:14its role must terminate when conflicts begin and then the military chain of command must flow
12:21directly to the political leadership to the political leadership now here we have to take a call
12:26see now here are issues of deep nuance higher defense organization which don't get discussed for
12:33example it is often quoted that the american cds the chain of command in the usa runs from the
12:39politician to the theater commander why it is not that the cds is kept out the cds moving a military
12:47man does not make the plans because he says if i make the plans i will own them and i
12:52will defend them
12:53and if i demand them the polit politician will not get non-parties i advise see the sophistication
12:59so here we have to take a call the chain of command once kinetics seem to begin should have flowed
13:05directly from the political leadership to the theater commander which and that is why the necessity of
13:11theater commands or from the cds to the theater commands and i'll tell you why the bureaucracies
13:18here must go the china study group some does some very good job in the peace time yeah
13:22but in war foreign secretaries and the others who are on that committee have no understanding of
13:29the instrument of force and then it leads to bureaucratic layers and so if you ask me the role
13:35of csg must now be terminated in fact you go back to 62 in henderson brooks one major reason why
13:41we
13:41didn't do well because you had director ib citing posts you know bureaucratic overreach so i'm of the view
13:47that the csg is a good peacetime confabulation but in war the military chain of command must flow
13:53directly from the political bosses and you see sindoor i think perhaps learning from galwan this
14:00time you had the three chiefs in the cds sitting with the prime minister everything discussed no space
14:05for ambiguity and and things happened so so then there is merit that there was ambiguity whether to open
14:12fire or not and may i make make one more point see here and this is an indian failing just
14:18yesterday
14:18i heard mr shashi tharoor uh in a brilliant critique of the budget you must listen to it a brilliant
14:25critique about tax receipts revenue you know inability to gather capital and i heard the finance minister
14:31listening in rapt attention this should be the dialogue between the political class and
14:36the opposition why does it not happen in national security these issues you know today should we be
14:42content with territorial defense should we turn to homeland security what about hemispheric
14:47influence economics the parliamentary committee on defense have you heard it giving any recommendations
14:55of consequence so these debates unless they happen this in this whole critique i'm not saying that
15:02reforms are not happening and some of the reforms of recent times are mind-boggling adani into heptas hl out
15:08of amca i just heard the defense secretary talking of throwing l1 out of the window this is great news
15:13but now into these debates if you have informed political opinions stepping in and you know debates
15:20like this getting deeper this is exactly what india needs that in its journey through amrit kaal so my
15:25critique is this no i can be deeper issues of national security must get this must be debated and must
15:31be
15:31debated threadbare but should they be debated when uh gel pande the operations uh are still ongoing in
15:39case they are um in terms of yes disengagement has happened but de-escalation hasn't happened
15:45de-induction hasn't happened and is there merit in the criticism that there was strategic ambiguity on
15:50whether when four tanks are advancing should they open fire should they not open fire or is that a
15:56decision that's left best left to either the commanding officer on ground the brigade commander
16:00the div commander the core commander at what level does that decision come yeah when the matter is
16:04sensitive then the information must flow uh both upwards and downwards right but the the final
16:13authority to actually open fire rest with the person who's on the ground and uh please give credit to
16:19the soldiers the tank men the troop leaders the company commanders con leaders with their squad
16:25commanders who actually saw they knew what was going to happen and they held on to fire right you
16:32imagine a little trigger a confusion and when people are talking about confusion in orders and these
16:38things are being debated i don't think there was any ambiguity in the in terms of order the tactical level
16:43that what the soldier in the front or the uh company commanders and young officers are likely to do
16:50they held on to the fire in case there was a requirement i'm quite sure when they would have
16:54understood there's a challenge there's a uh possibly of a breach which is going to happen where they are
16:59deployed and the tanks are likely to move across towards the place where they're not uh supposed to
17:04i'm very sure they would have opened fire because look we have all gone up in this organization
17:09yes we today may be uh at the senior level we may be veteran but we exactly know when we
17:14were on the
17:15front line what our orders were these rules of engagements are practiced thousands of times and
17:21there is a no clear one single line of order which can come out okay yeah so what i think
17:28is that uh we
17:29must allow the tactical commander to also uh continue to do what he's doing rather than getting too worried
17:36about this political debate which is happening at the top for reasons unknown to us because you know
17:43of course sandeep i'll just come to that aspect in just a moment that does this is this advantage
17:47adversary uh these debates but the fact that um uh you know what is written seems to indicate that uh
17:54didan army chief reached out to cds to raksha mantri to external affairs minister and repeatedly
18:00uh and the tanks were still advancing and yet he was making those phone calls not getting a feedback
18:05again reaching out because the army commander was reaching out to him would this indicate that
18:09as the tanks were rising we didn't know what needs to be done uh you know or we there was
18:15strategic ambiguity in the higher direction of war see now and here you know i would like to uh
18:21just point out look at the difference between the line of control and the lac along the line of
18:27control i mean i have opened fire to the left-wing colon tank fire under tej patak and 10 division
18:32the deterrence along the lc flows from battalion to battalion brigade to brigade it is not micromanaged
18:39from delhi has the time come along the lac to similarly devolve deterrence and these decisions
18:45around it downwards that is one point i think yes i think yes because we are far stronger and ultimately
18:53deterrence will come from those battalions on ground i mean dp will tell you moment a battalion comes across
18:58you study it and you make your decision on this the point here is that because they have been
19:06micromanaged so long from delhi china study group and all what happens see after galwan yeah there
19:12should have been 10 contingencies drawn up on when we will open fire or we will not open up fire
19:16are we saying that those contingencies were not drawn i don't know i mean there is a chain of
19:20the mind there is exactly if those contingencies were drawn up and i presume they were then why
19:27should we have come to this on the last day now this is how and this will happen as long
19:32as you
19:33have china study group you don't have pakistan study group because those bureaucratic layers will say
19:39call person so i think the time now has come that deterrence must flow from the field formations to
19:44the adversary you've done a qpq operation and the army doesn't have clarity whether it can open fire or
19:49not no i'm saying ki those war games the situations would have been war gamed and you know prior prior
19:57to
19:57prior to this incident and these questions i think were in the remit of the army chief they should not
20:04have
20:05gone beyond the second point that he's making of zhao zhang very interesting zhao zhang one letter
20:09that he's written yes reportedly there he says that the pla didn't want to do galwan it was zhi who
20:15was more enthusiastic now these things will happen everywhere there is another very famous air force
20:20general in china i forget his name who told zhi not to do taiwan they've said they were not ready
20:26and he
20:26used a famous phrase that your three days of glory in taiwan will put the chinese back by 30 years
20:33so i'm
20:33saying political military confabulations will happen do happen they will continue to happen and in this
20:39case also they have happened but there are pointers to suggest that they need constant refinement so you
20:45know uh i'll just put across my two bit uh please understand that galwan happened as a incident which
20:52went out of control right but thereafter when the actions have taken place they are very well calibrated
20:58actions have gone on to uh at different levels of uh application of element power in terms of your
21:04economic engagement your diplomatic parlays uh in terms of your military maneuver in which
21:09kalashians were occupied after all these were uh without actually going to a conflict or war which
21:16will set the country back you are able to actually prove a point to the chinese that you need to
21:21blink right
21:22so let's take this as one step so therefore i think there was quite amount of strategic clarity
21:27now when we are debating an instant of of an hour worth of a communication happening and seeking of
21:37maybe an information or informing truly that things may go sideways so kindly get ready be prepared
21:46right that's a uh so what is happening is that please understand in case just four tanks are rising
21:52up on a on a ridge towards uh this thing is it actually perturbing the tactical commander i don't
21:59think so but is it perturbing at the strategic level that something goes wrong in the sense that they
22:05the fire opens up then if you are not fully prepared and cognizant of what is going to happen tomorrow
22:11somebody can always dial up and say that if we were aware then we would have called up z and
22:17said
22:17please stand down right there are there are number of things of which which we can we can we can
22:24sit
22:24here and debate in hindsight but i think there was enough clarity in the mind of people below
22:32and at the top level there's an exchange of information which is taking place to shape the larger
22:37environment if possible to control it if it is likely to go out in what are my orders you know
22:44i don't know what am i to do no i don't think so no no please am i not these
22:49are repeatedly asking
22:51what are my orders you are looking you are trying to put words into the mouth of person who's not
22:56here
22:56to defend right okay the statement which i have heard or read is this much that he's informed and sought
23:03for any other order possible right now we can only extrapolate what he's trying to say when all of
23:09you permit me to ask you this question sir you talk about the ooda loop uh you talk about war
23:15gaming
23:15you talk about escalation ladder so when you are looking at the escalation ladder when i do the qpq
23:21operation i go and occupy the the kailash range right what will he do gotta will he just will he
23:29will
23:30send his tanks we would not have work he's not going to send four tanks to in case he's going
23:34out some kind of a major operation you think he's just going to send four tanks these are all symbolism
23:39right but in that symbolism if something goes awry something goes sideways somebody just let's say
23:46that one tank commander get jittery which he will not i'm quite sure in our case our tank tank commanders
23:52our soldiers are pretty firmed up uh let's say something had gone wrong then everybody would have
23:58said we skill it into a war but if we had known what to do you know what was happening
24:03we would
24:03have been well prepared everything was ready you please understand that uh when when i think uh army
24:08commander will be talking to him he will not say everything is said right please it doesn't happen
24:16when especially in such a scenario today anything which is going to happen in lc or lc or anywhere in
24:23borders the chain of communication happens so fast in terms of movement getting ready and to be set to
24:31be applied all these options which have been practiced in terms of escalation ladder are already set it
24:37doesn't require after all when uh palgam happened in serenity we had to go for operation sindoor it did
24:42not realize that all the three chiefs and cds are sitting now making plans these plans we have been part
24:47of
24:47these uh majority of plans have already been practiced rehearsed that when the political direction will
24:53come to apply a pressure of a different level how yes you may not have the exact plan but thereafter
25:00you
25:00modify some plans and thereafter you move out to carry out for the applicant that is why possibly it took
25:05about those 13 14 days to carry out the strike it required intelligence so sindoor is pakistan and pakistan
25:12we know how to deal with over decades this is china that has just done a galwan uh and every
25:20agreement
25:21that you've had with china uh 1993 6 2014 border defense agreement all of that has gone out of the
25:28window and everything's happening virtually on the fly after that you've taken a decision fine he's sitting
25:33on these places more so many rounds of talks have happened he's not moving back so a qpq is done
25:39and in
25:39after qpq there's a change in his stance also but then he's sending up four tanks i'm sure it would
25:45have been war game if he's doing something and he opens fire what will we do so that's what i'm
25:50saying
25:50you're looking at the tactical action for which all readiness is there but you're also looking at
25:56what jan shukla said that if it goes into a different realm you are looking at two mighty powers to
26:01engage two nuclear powers so in case it goes to that different realm you should be aware and informed
26:09i will let that be the last word on this part of the show we've had a very open debate
26:14getting
26:14all sides of the story and perhaps we'll hear much more on this and so many other issues in times
26:20to
26:20come i want to thank general shukla general panday and sandeep for joining me here on this india today
26:25special broadcast a democracy a noisy democracy a vibrant democracy everything will be discussed and
26:32discussed threadbare perhaps at times even issues that impact security many thanks for watching
26:39news and updates continue on india today stay with us
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