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00:00Welcome! Welcome to Uncloaked, both of you. Thrilled to have you here on, of course, what I'm calling the Welsh special.
00:09Fantastic. Fantastic.
00:11We almost need Charlotte from series three as well.
00:14No. No?
00:15Absolutely not.
00:17I like Charlotte, but no, she isn't a faithful Welsh, is she?
00:23Now, we've got a lot to talk about today. Traitor Fiona turning on traitor Rachel and unfortunately losing the battle.
00:29And faithful Rhys being murdered in what they described, very kindly, as a mercy killing.
00:34But first, we've got to start with the ending. The faithful winning the chance to talk to the traitors.
00:40What an incredible twist. In a series that has been twist after twist.
00:43Were we seeing anything like this coming?
00:46I mean, I think that it's really surprising from Matthew.
00:50Yeah.
00:51I wasn't expecting that sort of strategy from him.
00:54And I don't think anybody else will. I think that's why it's clever.
00:58Yeah.
00:59My spidey senses were like, he's going to have to be recruited.
01:01But I wasn't expecting the first question.
01:04But then how he uses then Jesse is almost like, what is that?
01:08What is he doing there?
01:09Yeah.
01:10Is it so that he can, so he knows they're going to go along with it?
01:13Yeah.
01:14So it's almost like a little breadcrumb.
01:16The breadcrumb and the direct question of, you know, who are you going to murder next?
01:22And I want you to be truthful with me was very direct with that, you know?
01:26Yeah.
01:27Yeah.
01:28It was fantastic gameplay by him.
01:29Yeah, totally.
01:30I'm glad it was smart players who are going in and have been in there to ask the questions
01:34because I'd waste a question on how are you.
01:38Well, if I was a traitor, I'd hope someone would say like, what colour socks are you wearing or something like that, you know?
01:45The cliffhanger at the end with Matthew waiting for the answer as to whether they would recruit him.
01:51Clearly the traitors are going to say yes.
01:53Do you think?
01:54I think Rachel might think if you can do that blatantly, what could you do to us if we recruit you?
02:01Yeah.
02:02You're going to throw us under the bus. I think she might think that way. So I don't think it's a definite yes from her.
02:08If Matthew gets seduced, do we think he can trust the traitors?
02:12I think he can trust Stephen. I don't think anyone can trust Rachel.
02:18Yeah.
02:19But can they trust him?
02:20Now, we actually have Harriet's questions next week. We'll be able to see what Harriet asked the traitors.
02:25Do we have any sense of what she might have asked?
02:28No, not really, because I think she knows that they're going to lie.
02:31She wouldn't ask them something like, where are you from, you know?
02:34Where are you from?
02:35Yeah, where are you from?
02:36Do you live next door to each other?
02:40I don't know what she...
02:41She might ask them what their favourite kill was or something, their favourite murder,
02:47because then she might work out relationships of, you know, who was close to who.
02:54I think she'll ask more questions down that line than direct questions like Matthew.
02:59Yes.
03:00Because she does think that they're going to lie anyway.
03:02She's not also going to try and plot and join the traitors like Matthew has.
03:06No.
03:07But she's going to wait till the end if she can.
03:09Yeah.
03:10She's got it sorted out that she's going to stay the quiet faithful.
03:14And then if there's those two left at the end, she's going to throw them into the fire pit.
03:19Yeah.
03:20So not even the bag, she's going to put the full traitor.
03:23Yeah, put them in the fire pit.
03:24Yeah, totally.
03:25Well, that's burning very red.
03:26Yeah.
03:28The other huge aspect of this episode was, of course, secret traitor Fiona has blown up the whole game.
03:33And she got caught.
03:34So she'll be with us shortly to talk about it.
03:36But we really have to just go back an episode briefly and talk about Fiona versus Rachel.
03:42Yes.
03:43When Fiona called out Rachel in front of everyone.
03:45Could you believe what was happening there, Charlotte?
03:47I just thought it was iconic and wonderful.
03:54I absolutely adore her.
03:56She's so mischievous.
03:59Yeah.
04:00And really, like, beautifully representing the crones, which is what she said she's come in to do to represent older women.
04:08And I just think, oh, go on.
04:10She's got lots of spark and sass.
04:14Yeah.
04:15Did you think, Amanda, there was a chance that she could have beaten Rachel?
04:18I hoped there was.
04:20Yes.
04:21Well, she's, you know.
04:22I'm just glad she had the balls, may I dare say, to go head-to-head outright with another traitor, you know.
04:30And show her that she wasn't going to just take it lying down.
04:34Now there's so much to unpack with Fiona, but before her and Rhys join us, let's enjoy when the pair met after leaving the castle and Rhys found out who the traitors were.
04:41Oh.
04:42Oh, my lovely wife.
04:43Oh, my God.
04:44Oh, good to see you.
04:45What was the reaction like when I didn't come down to breakfast?
04:46It was utter shock and disbelief.
04:47It's like, what's going on here?
05:02Because it just seemed like an unnecessary murder.
05:06I was just so amazed as to how people would take it, because I still think after, obviously, the banishment of Amanda and the whole Chester Chancellor deadlock, there was enough people that were convinced, still, that I was a traitor.
05:16Yeah.
05:17So the fact that it took for that to happen for you to realise, I'm not.
05:22I remember just laughing and I just feel like, well, what are they going to do?
05:25Because I was just so excited to see how everyone's taken it.
05:28So, who are Rhys, do you think, are the traitors and how many do you think there are?
05:34If I'm to make a decision now, I'm still not even really convinced.
05:38Jack, Ellie, Rachel, and then I think they started with four, so obviously Hugo was one of them.
05:43Hugo.
05:44So Hugo, Rachel, Jack and Ellie.
05:46I'm interested to know what you think I am first.
05:49So, with you, I think you're a faithful, I think, but by all means, what are you, a faithful or a traitor?
05:57Well, I am, you ready?
06:03Yeah.
06:05A traitor.
06:06No, you're not!
06:07Yes, I am, I am.
06:11And I just was playing cat and mouse with you.
06:14Oh, my God.
06:17Yes.
06:18And you got, you said about, you spoke about Hugo, you stabbed Hugo in the back.
06:21Did you not even think?
06:23Obviously, you have inklings on everybody, but I would never, I don't, if I'd had to put money on it, I would never have, that has thrown me off.
06:30So, Friis, I obviously haven't been working alone.
06:35Oh.
06:36So, on the table, the first scroll.
06:39I'm going to take this.
06:40Take it.
06:41Oh, I'm scared.
06:42I'm very scared.
06:43I'm very scared.
06:44You must be scared.
06:46I'm scared.
06:47You will be.
06:48Okay.
06:49This is nightmarish now.
06:52Oh, God.
06:53Oh, my God.
06:54Go on, boy.
06:57Oh, my God.
06:58Okay.
07:02Stephen.
07:03But do you know the funny thing about Stephen?
07:08Oh, my God.
07:09He just cannot lie.
07:10He'll get caught.
07:11Yeah, he'll get caught.
07:12He, I think he will.
07:13Okay.
07:16Okay.
07:22It is Rachel as well.
07:23I literally knew it.
07:24I knew it.
07:25Oh.
07:26So, my whole carriage.
07:28Yes.
07:29You were surrounded.
07:31Oh, my God.
07:33I knew it.
07:34I literally knew it.
07:35Very happy.
07:36Oh, my God.
07:39And Fiona and Rhys are with us now.
07:44Welcome.
07:45Welcome to Uncloaked.
07:46It's incredible to have you both here.
07:48Now, that was a great clip.
07:49Enjoyed watching that.
07:50Rhys, very shocked that Fiona was a traitor.
07:52Clearly.
07:53Why were you so sure that Fiona was faithful?
07:56Naivety.
07:57Absolutely.
07:58Just written all over my face.
07:59I think I really try to clearly see the best in people.
08:03And people just let me down, don't they?
08:06It's fine.
08:07It's fine.
08:08Now, Fiona, not only are you a traitor, you are the first ever secret traitor.
08:14I know.
08:15What an honour.
08:16Yes.
08:17Tell us through how you felt when Claudia gave you the red cloak.
08:20Oh, wow.
08:21How I felt.
08:22There aren't words to describe how elated, thrilled, chuffed, all of these just wonderful
08:31endorphins were rushing through my brain.
08:34I didn't know what to say.
08:35Honestly, women of a certain age normally have ten.
08:38I don't.
08:39But if I...
08:40You're 28, aren't you?
08:41Yes.
08:42I keep forgetting I'm 28.
08:44But honestly, it was just amazing.
08:47Watching it, I was like, that is the best seat in the house.
08:52Like, secret traitor when you're literally playing your own game.
08:58You haven't got to worry.
09:00You're not in that sort of furrowed brow state of the faithfuls, of the constantly besmirched
09:08faithfuls.
09:09But your secret traitor just seemed like...
09:12I was like, I can have a bit of that.
09:15I loved it.
09:16We obviously never got to see you making your decisions as the secret traitor in your little
09:21secret traitor hidey hole.
09:22Were you just loving it or was there any...
09:24Absolutely.
09:25Absolutely.
09:26I had no qualms at all about putting people's names on the list because I was just giving
09:35them little fish, little fish to feed on, isn't it?
09:39They had to decide what to do.
09:41Yeah.
09:42Yeah.
09:43Can we talk through some of those shortlists?
09:44Because we never got to hear your thought process behind the shortlists.
09:47Right.
09:48So for the first murder, your shortlist was James, Natty and Maz.
09:51Why did you choose them for the first murder shortlist?
09:54Well Maz is so lovely, you know.
09:56So kill him.
09:57He was so lovely he had to go on the list.
09:59Isn't it?
10:00A mercy murder.
10:01It's another one.
10:03Yes.
10:04And James was just such a character.
10:07He was throwing names around from day one.
10:10Mm.
10:11So he had to go there on the list as well because he was causing chaos.
10:17Yeah.
10:18Which is a good thing from a traitor's point of view.
10:22So it was just giving them food for thought.
10:24And Nettie is so lovely.
10:27She's a teacher and I love teachers.
10:30My son's a teacher.
10:31But perhaps I just took it out on her because she was a teacher.
10:35And it was a way of kind of just having a jab at my son.
10:40Who I love dearly.
10:42Well for the second murder there was Ben and of course there was Rhys.
10:47There was.
10:48And Maz again.
10:49Well I just thought it's better to double up.
10:52Yeah.
10:53It would confuse the traitors if you put the same names down twice.
10:56Yeah.
10:57So that's how poor Maz had it.
11:00I didn't feel Ben would fetch much money to the table.
11:04So I put his name down as one to go to.
11:08One to consider.
11:09But you do need the money don't you?
11:10Yes.
11:11Yes.
11:12You do too Fiona.
11:13But of course with Ben as well which is what caused a lot of chat about Stephen.
11:19Was that Ben had said if I get murdered tonight then you've got to look at Ross.
11:23And you were in the library as was Stephen.
11:26Was there a reason for putting Ben on the list because of that as well?
11:29No not really.
11:30So you caused all that chaos by accident.
11:33Throwing darts in the dark.
11:34It was all the money.
11:35It was all the money.
11:37Rhys I want to talk a little bit more about your game.
11:39You came under a lot of heat during the game.
11:42Especially during the missions.
11:44Yes.
11:45In episode four you were one of the faithful up for murder in the cages.
11:49But Fiona was of course the one protecting you.
11:52Getting the skulls.
11:54Protecting me.
11:55Getting the skulls.
11:56And you told Fiona to give away the skulls.
11:58Yeah.
11:59That she collected for you already.
12:00That put you under some suspicion.
12:02And you chose to eliminate your own shield.
12:04Yeah.
12:05In the Spear the Beast mission as well.
12:07I mean I was half expecting you to try and vote for yourself at the round table.
12:10I think it wouldn't have been too far fetched from what was coming.
12:13I think it was coming.
12:14Talk us through your game plan in those missions.
12:17Why did you do that?
12:18It's so hard to like sit here and map out like a game plan.
12:20Like you very much get thrown in the deep end regardless if you're a faithful or traitor.
12:23Like it just happens.
12:24Like you just turn up there and you're like oh well I'm here.
12:26So it's like you can have a map out of what you're going to do and it just all goes straight out the window.
12:30And I remember just being a bit that first night being very like well this is a deep water and I've just got to learn to swim in it.
12:36Because everyone's doing the exact same thing so I was appreciative of that.
12:38But very quickly learned that I don't have like a complex of if somebody's like accusing me of something.
12:43If I'm innocent in which I was I just didn't defend myself.
12:46So I was very like okay well I'll just be selfless then.
12:48I'll just take on the selfless things.
12:50Amanda would you have used Reece's decisions like that against him?
12:53You could be honest.
12:54Oh yeah absolutely yeah.
12:55I mean you were throwing yourself in the deep water weren't you?
12:59And you weren't swimming.
13:00You were just going around in circles yeah.
13:03But I would say with the skulls mission I think you had so little chance of actually getting out of that cage that it makes sense to give the skulls away.
13:11How I mean can we talk about that mission a little bit because it's one of my favourite moments of the series so far.
13:17When everyone else is running around getting skulls.
13:19You're sat in a cage and Fiona's having a country war.
13:21I don't know where she was.
13:22I don't know where she'd gone.
13:23I didn't see her once.
13:24I think where's Fiona is one of my favourite quotes of the whole series so far.
13:28And you're just sort of like pumbling around holding one skull just having a nice day out.
13:33I really did want to help him.
13:35I really did please.
13:36I'll never believe that.
13:38I did.
13:39I did both.
13:40But I just couldn't find the skulls.
13:44You were in no rush either Fiona.
13:47You did your best.
13:48I took my best.
13:49We don't have many treasure hunts in Wales.
13:51I think Rhys you solidified yourself as a faithful at that final round table the night before you were murdered.
13:59Did that make you worry about what might be in store for you?
14:03Being in the kitchen that night after the round table with Amanda's banishment I was just pleased that other things were going on.
14:09Obviously there's people shouting across the room that other people are liars.
14:12It was very much okay well someone else is talking and getting battered so I was very in that environment there.
14:18Because again I put myself up for murder in the day.
14:20I didn't anticipate being murdered clearly.
14:23It was like okay well someone else can get a bit of their turn and we might talk about somebody else for a little while.
14:29It was your like genuine reaction to the chest of chance.
14:32I'd like to think so yeah.
14:33Because everything again I pride myself on authenticity.
14:36Like everything that I felt in there was just what felt right at the time.
14:38Whether it was correct to do or not.
14:39Yeah.
14:40Who knows.
14:41I think and it was nice to see that they did talk about it in Turret that it was you need to get rid of me now.
14:45Because people were almost the exact 180 on me that like okay there's definitely definitely now.
14:50If it's not now then when will he go?
14:52Well that was one of the reasons.
14:54Let's remind ourselves of some of the other reasons why the traitor's murdered you.
14:58I think because we've been really really brutal with so many killings I think maybe a little mercy killing wouldn't go amiss right now.
15:06I think so.
15:07We can be nice up here.
15:09Put me down like the old family dog.
15:11Put me down like the old family dog.
15:13I'm limping around the kitchen.
15:14Put me down.
15:15Do you think as a traitor they might have a slightly warped view of what nice is?
15:19There's no way that there's a nice bone in that turret.
15:22Not a single.
15:23All three of you are like laughing your heads are enjoying yourself this is brilliant.
15:26I'm sweating.
15:28I'm sweating.
15:29I'm crying like no not a chance they know what nice is.
15:31Do you have anything to say to Fiona after seeing her?
15:33I've said everything I need to say.
15:36Fiona you said that Rhys was either a great traitor or a crap faithful.
15:42Yes.
15:43How does it feel now sat next to Rhys on the sofa after you've murdered him?
15:46I was over there.
15:48Say it to me Rhys.
15:49And the thing is you were a traitor so you knew he wasn't a great traitor.
15:52Yes.
15:53So you were just calling him a crap faithful.
15:54Just calling him crap.
15:55Everything I said was true.
15:58I appreciate an honest lady.
16:00I appreciate an honest lady.
16:01Now what was it like that moment because I think we all adored that moment when you finally got to reveal yourself to Stephen and Rachel.
16:08Oh it was so funny.
16:09How did that feel?
16:10Because I did not think you would go in that hot to say I've been doing your job for you for the last few dots.
16:16She was on job from me.
16:17Yeah.
16:18I believe haven't I been wonderful was the first thing I said.
16:21I know.
16:22It was so Sally Field at the Oscars.
16:24At least she's modest with it.
16:26At least she's modest.
16:29So going in initially I wanted to keep the red cloak for as long as I could.
16:35Yeah.
16:36It was a little bit apprehensive thinking well I don't know what they've been discussing so I'm going in cold now.
16:42Yeah.
16:43You are going in cold because they've already got their bonds.
16:50But it was great when I was there.
16:52Charlotte and Amanda did either of you guess that Fiona was the secret traitor?
16:56I did.
16:57You did.
16:58What gave you the clue?
16:59Because you were too joyful as a faithful.
17:03Because a faithful is normally a bit more serious and I thought she's got to be the secret traitor because she's enjoying this too much.
17:10And I was desperate for Claudia to put the red cloak on a Welsh person.
17:14I thought it's got to be.
17:16So yeah I just you were a bit too joyful to be a faithful.
17:20Fiona were you trying to help the traitors with your short lists?
17:23Yes.
17:24But I don't think they thought that.
17:25No.
17:26Well I think they were just annoyed about the whole secret traitor thing.
17:29Yes.
17:30To start with.
17:31Middle management as Hugo said.
17:32Yeah.
17:33That's a brilliant saying isn't it?
17:35Had you made your mind up about what they were like as traitors from watching them around the castle?
17:39Yes.
17:40Because obviously you knew who they were.
17:41They didn't know who you were.
17:42Yes.
17:43So are you observing them and trying to work them out during that period?
17:45Stephen is just a darling.
17:47He's an absolute darling.
17:50You could not love Stephen.
17:54He's so wonderful.
17:56Rachel is canny.
17:57Oh my goodness she's going to be the Queen of Ireland.
18:00She is an amazing player.
18:03Absolutely amazing.
18:05And I love Rachel to bits.
18:07But I'd seen that Rachel was the danger to me.
18:11Or I'd felt.
18:12Yes.
18:13And I always go on my gut.
18:15So I listen.
18:16We do have to talk about where your downfall began.
18:19Yes.
18:20Being suspicious of Rachel's story about Amanda being an ex detective.
18:24I did not see this coming.
18:26I did not know what was going to happen.
18:28Can you please talk us through what happened that night?
18:31And indeed did you really think Rachel was lying about Amanda telling her that?
18:36No, I knew she was saying the truth.
18:42I absolutely knew she was saying the truth.
18:44Yeah.
18:45And I trusted her explicitly.
18:49However, I'd had my suspicions on Rachel and I thought that if anybody had taken your saying,
18:57if anybody's going to throw me under the bus, it's going to be Rachel.
19:01So it's best, it's if you play poker and you have a rubbish hand,
19:06you're not going to keep putting money in the kitty.
19:09You throw the hand down, isn't it?
19:11And I thought, that's what I'm going to do here.
19:13I'm going to throw a grenade in the room and let's see who comes out of it unscathed.
19:20Unfortunately, it was me.
19:23Who came out.
19:26But it had to be done, I think.
19:29It would have been lovely for the three Celts to have made it to the end.
19:33But it wouldn't have happened, yeah.
19:34But it was never going to happen.
19:35It was never happening, was it?
19:36Well, no, not with your behaviour.
19:39What about Rachel can't be trusted?
19:41You can't either.
19:43I think the thing with Rachel as well, it came across like she was annoyed.
19:46It was also the first time she was properly challenged.
19:48Like I think in the environment that you're in,
19:50when you're challenged for the first time, it's obviously the most uncomfortable
19:52because it's so new, like having a point finger to you,
19:54regardless of what you are, is not nice.
19:56So then when perhaps someone did put a brick in her washing machine
19:59and see what happens, she was probably a bit of a bee in a bonnet.
20:01Yeah, especially not at the round table.
20:03No.
20:04After a round table, everyone's relaxing.
20:05Quite an emotional round table.
20:06Yeah, yeah.
20:07I didn't need the extra stress.
20:08I didn't need the extra stress.
20:10And the tower was amazing that night.
20:12The turret.
20:13Yes.
20:14And you know, Stephen is such a darling.
20:16Of course.
20:17And he was so uncomfortable.
20:18I honestly think he thought there were going to be two women scrapping here.
20:24I think he had one eye on Blair's security, I think.
20:28Did you consider speaking to Stephen first before you went up against Rachel?
20:32No.
20:33And the reason being is that I think if I'd said to Stephen, he would have talked me out of it.
20:40Yeah.
20:41And I didn't want to be talked out of it.
20:43I thought, no, I'm going to do this and it's got to be done now.
20:46If not now, then when?
20:47Yeah.
20:48Let's jump to the round table, your final round table, Fiona.
20:51Yes.
20:52Did you think you might be able to survive?
20:54If I had to put a bet on myself, it'd be 50p each way.
20:59I thought, if I vote for her, then it's ruining her game straight away.
21:04Right.
21:05If I don't vote for her, people are going to have suspicions anyway.
21:11And so I think I voted for Ross.
21:15You voted for Sam.
21:16Sam.
21:17Was that?
21:18Ross had gone about three days before.
21:19Oh yes, of course he had.
21:20Ross is minding his own business.
21:22He's gone home.
21:23Now, Fiona, are you prepared for post-traitors fame?
21:27Do you have social media?
21:28Instagram, which my son is running, because I haven't got a clue with anything like that.
21:35But somebody told me that not to have it on my own mobile phone to get a burner phone.
21:43So I did say to them, but I thought it was only drug addicts and gun dealers that had burner phones.
21:49And they said to me, no, you need one for your social media.
21:53So I went into town, into a shop, and I asked for a burner phone.
21:59So the man went into the back of the shop, and I was just looking around, and two police officers turned up then, and said to me, have you asked for a burner phone?
22:14And I said, yes, the man's gone out the back to get it.
22:19And they said, can I ask you why you want a burner phone?
22:23I said, I need it for social media.
22:26And they said, so why have you asked for a burner phone?
22:29Why don't you ask for a pay-as-you-go phone?
22:33They're clearly trying to set you up, Fiona.
22:35Yes.
22:36I mean, do I look like the type?
22:38Takes all sorts.
22:39You didn't look like a traitor, Fiona.
22:41Sadly, we've run out of time here, but that doesn't mean it's all over.
22:47We'll be continuing the chat in our bonus episode of Uncloaked on BBC Sounds.
22:52You can scan the QR code on screen right now to listen.
22:55We're going to discuss the questions in the Smoke and Mirrors mission, and how those votes might affect the players.
23:00Plus, if we had the chance to ask a question to the traitors, what would we want to find out?
23:05If you think you've got what it takes to be a traitor like Fiona, good news, as Casting for Traitors Series 5 is open.
23:11Head to bbc.co.uk forward slash take part to apply.
23:14A massive thanks to Sharla, Amanda, Fiona and Rhys for joining me.
23:18We'll be back next week after episode 7 on Wednesday of The Traitors to unpick the answers to Matthew and Harriet's questions and so much more.
23:26I'm Ed Gamble. Stay faithful.
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