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In this episode of ESSENCE Now's "Kitchen Table Talk", we gathered a panel of "woke" Black and white folks to discuss the differences in how Black and white people view racism.
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00:00Welcome to Essence Now's Kitchen Table Talk.
00:15I'm your host, Makon Lovu, but remember, this is your show,
00:18so you can sound off at any time using the hashtag EssenceNow
00:21or by emailing us at EssenceNow at Essence.com.
00:25All right, today's conversation is all about racism in black and white,
00:29whether it's the murder of Philando Castile or the recent incidents in Charlottesville,
00:34it's become pretty clear that white and black people often see the issues of racism completely differently.
00:39But how do we get white people to see racism as their problem too?
00:43And whose responsibility is it to educate when something racist happens?
00:47So because racism affects us all, we've invited some of our favorite woke black and white folks
00:53to join us at the table for a real and frank conversation about race.
00:57Please welcome Devine Trentman, co-founder and production director of We Are So Z,
01:02Rich Jeswiak, writer and editor for Jezebel, GQ, and more,
01:06Alexander Hardy, writer and co-host of the Extraordinary Negroes podcast
01:09and Essence.com's very own senior news and culture editor, Christina Coleman.
01:14Welcome, everyone.
01:16Okay, let's talk about how we talk to each other about race.
01:20We asked you on social media, what have your experiences been like
01:24when talking to white people about race?
01:26And here's what you said.
01:28While Raven 3 tweeted,
01:29Often I get called a racist for calling out racial issues.
01:33Always met with deflection, denial, and defensiveness.
01:36Keep it moving, 1114 wrote,
01:38Most tell me slavery is over and why am I still so angry?
01:41Some white people don't realize that they still benefit from the wealth of their ancestors.
01:46And nay by nature said simply,
01:48They just don't get it.
01:50Ooh, hmm.
01:52Those are some really interesting comments.
01:54What do you all think?
01:55What have been your personal experiences when talking to other races about racism?
01:59Davine, why don't you take it?
02:01Yeah, I mean, I think talking to people who aren't of the same race as you about racism
02:06aren't always comfortable experiences for people, particularly white people.
02:11But I also think a big issue that's happening right now is white people aren't talking directly
02:16to other white people about racism.
02:19That's a very valid point.
02:20Now, Rich, as a white male, do you find that it's easier for you to talk to other white people
02:25about racism?
02:26Is there a position of privilege there?
02:28I'm sure there's a position of privilege there, but I find neither easier or harder.
02:33I've had dozens, maybe hundreds of conversations with black people about racism that are never
02:39fraught, that are always full of understanding and sort of exchanging ideas.
02:43I think if I were to come down from another planet and look at Twitter, I would think that
02:47the conversations, the reality of the conversations, were far different than they actually, than
02:51my experience has actually played out in real life.
02:54How so?
02:55I just find it a very easy thing to talk about with people.
02:59I find that people, if you're willing to listen, people are willing to tell you about
03:04their lives and their experiences.
03:05You know, and I also don't feel particularly threatened by talking about this sort of thing.
03:14It doesn't make me uncomfortable.
03:15Like, I know it does a lot of white people.
03:17Yeah.
03:18Just, I don't know, it's something I think about a lot, too.
03:21So, it's just something that interests me.
03:23Yeah.
03:24Christina and Alexander, what of your experience?
03:26I know, Christina's given me that eye.
03:28I feel like, yeah.
03:29I think that when discussing racism and trying to talk to other white people about racism,
03:36I've had my issues and my hangups and you kind of hit a brick wall.
03:39And I've been doing something as of late and I've been protecting myself.
03:43And maybe that's not the right way to go about things.
03:46But in the time of Charlottesville and Donald Trump, I'm finding that it's really not my job
03:50to teach white people what they should know about racism.
03:53I think that it's a very malicious and obvious and blatant disregard for other people in this
04:00country.
04:00And they don't want to accept that.
04:03That's just what it is.
04:04I think accepting their privilege and understanding their history and impression would present some
04:11truths that they're not ready to see.
04:13Right.
04:13And also threaten their position in this world.
04:15So, as much as, you know, the white people that I talk to, as much as they want to learn
04:18about racism, there's still a lot that they have to address within themselves before they
04:24can come full circle.
04:25Agreed.
04:26It is an endless uphill battle to, like, educate and get people to see the value of life that
04:35does not necessarily look like their own.
04:37To your point, I think that it is not our job, and unfortunately it is placed on our shoulders
04:41far too often, to educate, be the voice of reason, to educate people nicely, to not offend
04:47people, and I just think that's not the most productive way to have this conversation.
04:55Basically, I just stopped.
04:56Like, the educating and the, like, you know, even as a freelance writer, I realized, like,
05:00it was far too detrimental to my mental health to try to teach, you can't teach humanity to
05:04people.
05:04Now, Devine and Rich, how do you talk to your white friends and family about these
05:09issues as they prop up?
05:10It seems like they were just popping up every single day.
05:14Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like, they're, not only is it, you know, it's not for black
05:21people to teach white people about racism, like, that's just not, it's not their job,
05:26it's not your job.
05:28But even before just, like, addressing racism, as Tina kind of touched on, is, like, white people
05:35have a really hard time confronting their own privilege, so I think, like, the conversation
05:40starts with, like, how you talk to your friends and family about the privilege that they have,
05:45and especially as, you know, as you said, like, it's just time and time again, incidents
05:51are popping up, and they're tough conversations, I think, to have if you haven't had them before.
05:56I know within my own family, you know, my dad didn't know what white privilege was until
06:01I taught him about it, and that was...
06:03How did you have that conversation with him?
06:05Was it, like, he said it in passing, or did you just kind of, like, sit down and talk to him
06:10about what it is?
06:11I mean, I think it was just really naming it, right?
06:13Like, he was aware of these things, but he had never been in an environment where it was
06:18talked about in a really direct way.
06:20Like, do you understand, like, you know, if you're on the bus and you just came home from a workout
06:25and you smell, like, no one is going to think your whole race smells.
06:29It's going to be this one person, and, like, and that is, like, in the most small, small,
06:34small way, but obviously there are systems that are uphold and, you know, have held him
06:39up his whole life and have benefited him and all white people his whole life.
06:44So what was the outcome of that conversation?
06:47Did he understand, or do you think there's still some work to go?
06:49How did that whole end up?
06:51I mean, I don't think it's, like, you have the conversation and he is, you know, totally,
06:56you know, I think all of us, all white people always have constant learning to do and how
07:02to unlearn, you know, white supremacy.
07:08All the structures that uphold white supremacy still are very much in place, and that's what
07:14we're seeing now is, especially with Charlottesville, is the white anxiety around that and people,
07:20you know, who, the people who are fighting to try to protect those structures that benefit
07:25them at the cost of others.
07:27And, you know, can I just say...
07:28No, chime in.
07:29I really want to commend Davine for just calling it what it is.
07:33It's white supremacy.
07:34And we've seen it, it's been called, it's been called so many different things throughout
07:38the years.
07:39And I think when we just subscribe this, this one word to it, it's white supremacy.
07:43That's what it is, and this is what we have to dismantle, then maybe it'll be easier for
07:48people to kind of grasp onto.
07:50I think that this idea we have around white supremacy is that it's archaic and it's aged,
07:58and that's not what this is.
07:59Not at all.
08:00When in reality, that's exactly what this is.
08:03And they want to call it all different types of things, new words, language around it is
08:06changing, but at the core of it is white supremacy.
08:08And if you understand what white supremacy is, then you know that we are at a really
08:12critical point in history, because it's still here and it's still permeating every aspect
08:18of our lives as white people, as black people, as whatever you are.
08:22Right, right.
08:23Globally.
08:23All globally.
08:24Exactly.
08:25Now, Rich, do you have any rules or tips or guidelines that you have when you talk to
08:29white people about race or even black folks?
08:32Are there any rules that you abide by?
08:33Well, I relate to the hitting the wall thing.
08:35I think that there, I think just like there's active white supremacy, like Klansmen, and
08:40then there's the passive white supremacy that, you know, goes uncommented on a lot of the
08:47time, you know, that people, that white people can benefit from that and just kind of slide
08:52through life without even realizing it.
08:53I think that there are white people that you can talk to about race or that I feel like
08:57I can talk to about race.
08:58And then there are people that I just completely count out immediately because it's like, you're
09:03a lost cause, you're a total racist, and I want nothing to do with you.
09:06Yeah.
09:06And what's insane to me is how in this day and age, white people will still bond with
09:11each other over racism.
09:12Mm.
09:12Growing up, I mean, it was not uncommon to hear someone say something within 10 minutes,
09:18you know, racist.
09:20So as to create some sort of bond, you know, like, I think that like sort of that negativity
09:25can kind of bring people together, you know?
09:27But as an adult now, when someone says something racist in your presence, right, how do you fight
09:31that?
09:33I mean, I explain to them what, why I think it's wrong.
09:35And a lot of the time that is just an immediate check mark to me is like, you know, if someone
09:40shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
09:42Exactly.
09:43And so, and so, you know, as you go through life, you meet a lot of people.
09:45Maya Devin, yeah.
09:46Right?
09:47Yeah.
09:48Yeah.
09:49Maya Angelou.
09:50As you go through life, you meet a lot of people and I don't have time for everybody
09:53in my life.
09:54So that's just a filtration system for me.
09:56It's like, if you're going to be racist and disgusting, I don't want anything to do with you.
09:59Now, I mean, you could argue maybe I should do more on the ground work and really try
10:03to change minds, but it seems to me like I would rather focus on people that I actually
10:08can vibe with as opposed to those that I can't.
10:10I mean, there's actual Nazis in the street right now.
10:14Like that is just where we're at, but I just think to your point about, I think like that
10:20is a, like a product of also having white privilege is being able to say like, I'm not
10:30one of those white people.
10:31I'm not with the hood and like, I'm not a Nazi, like I'm not one of those.
10:34And like, I think that that is also upholding more structures of white supremacy.
10:39Like we create subcategories of other white people and that benefits us.
10:44Like the term, I mean, the term white trash, for example, like that is a term that has
10:50been coined that white people have made to make sure that we're not associated with people
10:56of lower economic status when really like, you know, that you would never hear the term
11:02like Latino trash or black trash.
11:04Like there's no subcategory for other races, but we create these other categories where
11:09like, oh, well, we're not, we're not a neo-Nazi.
11:11So like, we're not a part of those crazy white people, like they're their own, but really
11:15like those are the white people that other white people, we need to be responsible for,
11:22you know, having those hard conversations.
11:24I think like something that we're avoiding is we have, you know, I think the majority,
11:30the most white people have like, you know, that racist uncle that when they come, when
11:34he comes to Thanksgiving, you're like, oh God, like, please just don't go there.
11:38But you, he's still sitting at your table.
11:40That's a conversation that you can still have.
11:42That's a tangible way to reach someone.
11:44Kind of like the Tiki torch thing.
11:45Like I'm not going for those people who are marching in on the front lines and like, well,
11:49as a white person, rather, like as far as the othering and the white trash.
11:53And I think a lot of the conversation is not getting as advanced as it could because of that
11:56othering and not wanting to be associated with like those racist people over there.
12:00But as far as like the Tiki torches and the Klansmen and people in the street, like those
12:04are people's uncles and dads and teachers and mailmen.
12:06And, you know, the good people, they each know some of those people.
12:10So like you need to talk to those people and, and stop being so concerned with, oh, I'm a
12:15good white person.
12:15I'm a good, I'm not one of those people.
12:17I mean, I'm not concerned about being, I mean, I'm not concerned about putting myself
12:21out there as a good white person.
12:23I don't, I feel like going as far as to call myself an ally reflects back on me in a way
12:28that's like self-flattering.
12:29That kind of disgusts me too.
12:30So you don't even like that term?
12:32Um, I mean, I understand why people use it, but I would never say I am an ally.
12:36I would rather just.
12:37You can't self-proclaim allyship.
12:38I would rather just be very clear about that.
12:40Like being an intellectual.
12:41Yeah.
12:42So like that's the first rule of allyship.
12:43Like you cannot self-proclaim, like let your work speak for you.
12:47Yeah.
12:47Yeah.
12:47But, but I think that like, like I was talking about going through life, you can only do so much.
12:52So subcategories do make a certain amount of sense.
12:55There is a difference between somebody who says something casually racist or somebody
12:59who voted for Trump versus a dedicated member to the Ku Klux Klan who's devoted their life
13:04to this concept of white culture.
13:06And those people have always scared me.
13:08Yeah.
13:08And I've never wanted anything to do with those people.
13:11I don't think, and also like as much as I completely agree with the fact that black
13:15people do not have any obligation to educate white people, if white people are educating
13:20white people, then this is a theoretical conversation.
13:23If somebody can bring life experience into something, I think you could probably change
13:28more lives.
13:28Whether you're willing to do that or not is entirely up to you and completely understandable
13:33if you're not.
13:34But this is the thing, I am not invested, nor am I willing to take a full, I'm not, I'm
13:43not here to deal in the degrees of racism.
13:46Like I'm kind of a racist, I'm passively racist, or I'm a straight out Nazi, neo-Nazi.
13:52And it's, to be honest, I feel like it's, it's white people's job.
13:56Like you have to do the work for those tiki carrying Nazi a-holes in the street.
14:01Like it's not, I'm not going to put my body and my life on the line when I have to do
14:05it every day as a black woman, when this is your uncle and this is your auntie, because
14:09let's be real, white women have upheld white supremacy for forever.
14:14And we never talk about white women and their feminism and how it plays into white supremacy.
14:20And so I understand what you're saying that we also have to do some of the work, but we've
14:25been doing the work.
14:26Oh yeah.
14:26Like we're like, yeah.
14:27I don't think you have to do anything at all.
14:29I think that there, it's beneficial to also understand our life experiences.
14:32And, you know, I'm not saying that I'm not willing to talk to a white person at all about
14:36race.
14:36Yeah, we're doing it now.
14:37Right.
14:37But, but I'm saying that for, for Alex and I, it's just not beneficial for us to get out
14:43in the streets and, and go to your racist uncle and say, Hey, that's your job.
14:48That's your job.
14:49And honestly, I'm actually more, I'm sorry.
14:50Well, no, and also just this idea that white supremacy, when we talk about these varying
14:56degrees of racism, like you're saying, like, um, I'm not a neo-Nazi and these subcultures
15:01or these subcategories do matter.
15:05As a black woman in America, white supremacy is not the fringe for me.
15:10It's not, there is no passive racism.
15:14It's every day.
15:15Yes.
15:16It's not passive racism.
15:17When we talk about, I think that's a little irresponsible because what you're saying is
15:21Well, passively rendered is what I mean.
15:22Okay.
15:23But like, I mean, I'm talking about expression.
15:25I'm talking about who can you have a conversation with?
15:27I don't foresee myself having a conversation with a Klansman in, in a variety of ways.
15:32I don't live near any of them, but I don't want to talk to somebody that hateful.
15:37But you have to.
15:38That's the thing.
15:39So, I mean, are you suggesting that I call a Klansman and talk to them?
15:42Do what you have to do.
15:43Because I've had these conversations and it doesn't work.
15:46That's why I relate to your head in the wall fit.
15:48How dangerous it is for us to walk up to a Klansman and say, hey, let me explain why
15:52I'm a human.
15:52Right.
15:53Why my black life matters.
15:54Right.
15:55You know, versus you calling a Klansman and saying, hey, bro, like, you know, black lives
16:00matter and let me tell you why.
16:02Then the question becomes, then how do we then push that forward?
16:05Or is there?
16:05We don't.
16:06Because if everyone takes that same position, then nothing will get done.
16:09I mean, yes, you don't have to go down there and say, hey, Mr. Klansman, be good.
16:12These are people, too.
16:13But start with your uncle.
16:14Start with your grandma.
16:15But I do.
16:16Yeah.
16:17I'm not related to Klansman, but I do have these conversations.
16:20Yes.
16:21But I'm saying it's just important to keep doing that.
16:23Yeah.
16:23I mean, you do, but, like, what about the 50, 100 people who can't go ask me what I could,
16:28like, Lady Gaga?
16:28There's also something else in, like, white allyship that I find that I come up against
16:33is that people take it really personally.
16:35And so, like, even when you say you positioned yourself in the way that you were like, but
16:39I do.
16:39I'm just talking about my life experience.
16:40I know, but for, I mean, like, at the broader conversation, it's like.
16:45I mean, we're talking personally, though.
16:46Yeah, I get it.
16:47But you also keep interrupting me, which is also, allyship 101 is just to listen.
16:52Like, listen more.
16:53I'm just having a conversation.
16:55I understand, but you can also listen more.
16:56So I'm just trying to explain to you my philosophy.
17:00Yeah.
17:00You've also cut me off about four times at this point.
17:03I definitely want us to have the conversation, so we'll make a more cognizant effort to listen.
17:08All right, we're going to get our eat and drink on, but keep sending us your comments
17:12using the hashtag EssenceNow.
17:14More of EssenceNow's Kitchen Table Talk, Racism in Black and White, is up next.
17:19You're watching EssenceNow's Kitchen Table Talk.
17:21I'm your host, Makon Jovu, and today we're talking racism in black and white.
17:26How can we create more allies in the fight against racism?
17:29Because we all know you don't have to carry a tiki torch to be racist, right?
17:32Remember to hit us up at any time using your comments, hashtag EssenceNow,
17:36or by emailing us at EssenceNow at Essence.com.
17:40Joining me at the table are We Are So Z's Devine Trentman,
17:44Jezebel's Rich Jesbiak, writer Alexander Hardy, and our very own Christina Coleman.
17:50Let's talk a little bit about education.
17:52It seems there's a vast difference between what black people know about racism
17:55and what white people think it is.
17:57How would each of you define racism?
17:59Christina, we'll start with you.
18:01Oh my gosh.
18:01Um, it's, that's a really heavy question.
18:04I mean, there's like your basic definition, but I think that, um, it's tough to say,
18:11especially because it's so personal to me.
18:12And I just talked about it as trying to put our, like, putting our personal selves in
18:19and looking at a bigger picture.
18:20Yeah.
18:20Um, but racism is a lot of things.
18:23And I think that that's what white people, if they're going this route of allyship need
18:28to recognize.
18:29It's not just the systemic killing of black men in the streets.
18:33It's also the systemic killing of black women in the streets.
18:36It's also, um, Flint, it's environmental racism, um, which we talked about on EssenceNow
18:42a couple of weeks ago.
18:44It's also, um, discrimination in the workplace, um, in housing.
18:49So it's state sanctioned violence across the board.
18:52Um, and I think once you realize that it's not just this one thing, like you don't have
18:56to, like you said, carry a tiki torch or say, Hey, I really hate the N word to be a racist
19:04or to be, to, to perpetuate racism, then, um, the conversation around how to dismantle
19:10it will be easier.
19:10Right.
19:11Rich, I think you were nodding your head.
19:13Oh yeah, I agree with all that.
19:14I would also add, um, medical disparity.
19:16That's a huge, huge thing.
19:18I mean, if you look at HIV rates, it's just insane.
19:20And if you look at the reason for high HIV rates, especially among black MSM, every road
19:26goes back to racism.
19:27Medical mistrust has to do with racism.
19:29Every single road.
19:30It's, it's nuts to look at.
19:31And Devine, when we talk about, um, you know, race and whatever, how did you, do you, first
19:37of all, do you define yourself as an ally?
19:39Do you view yourself as an ally?
19:41Because we had a conversation with Rich and he says, no.
19:43And then tell us about your journey to wokeness.
19:45If you consider yourself woke.
19:47Sure.
19:47I mean, I think like Tina said, like the first rule of being an ally is, you know, you don't
19:51name yourself an ally.
19:53Um, and I think, you know, it's, it's interesting that I think everyone has their own journey to
19:59consciousness. Um, but I also think like it's as relevant for white people to define racism
20:06as it is for men to define sexism. Like, I don't have that experience to be able to define
20:13it. Um, so I think really what I think a lot of the work that white people have to do is
20:18the unlearning of everything that we've been taught growing up. Um, and, and really seeing
20:24and dismantling, doing the work to really dismantle the systems that uphold white supremacy.
20:29What are some of the things that you've had to unlearn as, as an adult and navigating this?
20:35Yeah. I mean, I think like just growing up in America in general, um, there's this, there's
20:42this air of meritocracy and pull yourself up by the bootstraps. If you have the will, like
20:46you can do it, but like I was benefited by systems that benefited me my whole life. Um,
20:53not to say, um, everything was always easy, but you know, it was, I had more benefits, um,
21:01just based off the color of my skin and absolutely nothing else. Um, and so I think, you know,
21:09some of the things that I've had to unlearn is how do I put others who have not benefited from
21:14those same systems, um, at the forefront? Like how do we have, how do I put someone, um, as
21:21Rich you were kind of pointing to is, you know, telling, you know, you are your expert of your
21:27own experience. And so how do we have, um, women of color telling stories that are authentic to them
21:34and how are we putting authentic storytellers in positions, um, that are telling their own stories.
21:40And so working to make sure that, um, you know, I'm not the one telling the stories that aren't
21:45authentic to my own experience. Right. It's so interesting because in your Twitter avatar,
21:50notice you're wearing a black lives matter t-shirt, right? So you're really involved in part of it.
21:55So you tell the story from your perspective and in a way that you think you can affect change.
21:59Is that, yeah, I mean, it's so crazy. Anytime I wear that shirt, like I get a lot of mixed reactions.
22:06I have white people that are like, come up to me and they'll be like, I don't like, I don't get
22:13your shirt. Like I don't, don't all lives matter. And I'm like, Oh my, no, here we go. Don't all
22:17lives matter me. Oh yeah. All the time. That picture was taken actually on the day of the inauguration.
22:23And then I have, you know, I have some people that thank me for wearing the shirt. I have some
22:28people who are offended by me wearing the shirt. And so, but I think wearing a shirt that says black
22:35lives matter is just making like a very simple point that black lives matter and white people
22:42need to be at the forefront, putting our bodies on the line. That is where we do the work. As Tina
22:47said, she shouldn't, you know, black people shouldn't have to be putting themselves on the
22:51front lines, putting their bodies at harm. Cause they're already doing that every single day.
22:55But me as a white person, I can put my body on the front lines at the forefront physically,
23:02like not in any metaphorical kind of way, but actually physically using my body to protect
23:07those who are not protected by the color of their skin. She makes a really good point about
23:12kind of what we're up against in terms of like you having that black lives matter shirt on and
23:16the fact that people see the word black and feel attacked instantly. Like that is what we're up
23:19against. We can't even talk about race. This is race baiting or whatever that means. You know,
23:24just bringing the words up, talking about the issues you face, not complaining or attacking someone
23:28personally, but just talking about this is what I've been through. And so that makes that's difficult
23:32for some people. Like that's the initial hurdle. We can't even get over that to even start the
23:37conversation because people are concerned with feelings and being offended and, you know, saying
23:42the word black and can you say black and you know, all that kind of stuff. Right. Yes. It's ridiculous
23:45that people feel provoked when they read the words black lives matter, but isn't it such a litmus test
23:51for one's racism that those words would be challenging at all? Like what in those words
23:57is so hard to deal with? Why do you feel the need to push back against that? Would you attribute that
24:02some of it to the educational system or is it the values that you learn at home? What do you
24:07I mean, I think, I think Alex got it really right. That just the idea of any sort of black power
24:16or any kind of acknowledgement is really threatening to people. And, and I think it's about this
24:22country's history. Certainly education by and large is a story about white people. Um, and yeah,
24:30I think it's just really, really challenging for people to have any sort of idea that there could
24:35be shared space or that like, this is not the dominion of white people. All right. Don't move more
24:42of Essence Now's kitchen table talk, racism and black and white is up next. You're watching Essence
24:47Now's kitchen table talk, and I'm your host, Makon Yovu. Today's conversation is all about race and
24:53the differences in how black and white people see racial issues. Today's special guests are
24:58Devine Trentman, Rich Josviak, Alexander Hardy, and our very own Christina Coleman. Remember to chime in
25:05on the discussion using the hashtag Essence Now or by emailing us at Essence Now at Essence.com.
25:11All right. The conversation got a little heated before, and it's really important for us to have
25:16these conversations. Do you, do you, how do we have them constructively where we can kind of get
25:20heated, but we get somewhere at the end of it? Breaks. Whoever wants to chime in.
25:25You said, what? Drinks? Well, drinks. Drinks too, but like breaks. So like, you know,
25:30Rich and I haven't agreed on everything, but I think that there are some things that we can both take
25:34away from this conversation. Totally. We agree on a lot of things, and there are some things that,
25:39you know, there's a learning curve. Like we both need to listen to each other. I think it's just
25:45about being respectful. I think that we've maintained that here at this table. We have some
25:51wine to help us out. Yes, that helps. We have some pizza. Pizza will never do anybody wrong except in
25:57this area. You know, but I think it starts with just respect and understanding the humanity of
26:04everyone. You know, I'm not less, any less human than Rich. And I think once we get to that point,
26:11we can start having constructive conversations. Yes. And for the record, I'm sorry to have
26:15interrupted you. Oh, we appreciate that. Now, Rich, I want to talk about your journey to wokeness,
26:22right? Because I know you said you don't really, you don't really see yourself as a wide ally,
26:25right? Well, I mean, I guess like if you, if you tied me down and made me say yes or no,
26:31then yes, I'm an ally. But to say that sounds ridiculous. And like I said, like,
26:36it sounds like, you know, I kind of, I try to refrain from anything that would reflect
26:41well on me in terms of those overt statements, because I don't want it to be about like,
26:46look at how great I am. I'd rather just live that experience. Totally understood. But I want to find
26:50out about your journey to it. So there a moment of awakening, or is it just kind of like, I think,
26:56I think for me, it was, you know, growing up from the time, second grade on, I was made fun of for
27:01being gay years, I mean, decades before I was willing to say so myself. But what I could, what I
27:09felt I could be righteously mad about, because I kind of agreed with them, like the internalized
27:14homophobia was such that I felt like I had no like to really stand on. But I could see racism for
27:20the evil that it was, and kind of have that righteous indignation to see that level of
27:27disparity and prejudice and what that looks like to feel that way. So I kind of concentrated
27:31my energy there as a kid, understanding that I got into hip hop when I was like, fourth grade.
27:40And just, yeah, it just kind of blossomed from there, I think. I think that was really the moment,
27:45just understanding what it was like to be attacked for being other, because there were probably like,
27:50my school was probably like 10% black kids. So it was like a visible minority, but I decided
27:55minority. I mean, no out gay kids at all. Yeah. So the only one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't even
28:02out, though. I mean, you didn't come out until it was like, that affected me so much. I didn't even
28:06come out till I was like, 22.
28:07Devine, I'll let you have the final thought, have the final word.
28:11Okay. I mean, the final word is really, I think, you know, exactly as you said, like,
28:19we're hearing these conversations, we get it, even though there's still a ton of learning and
28:25listening to do. But, you know, I think like these conversations can be uncomfortable, but that is the
28:32necessary step. Please like make yourself uncomfortable, put your body on the front lines,
28:38like use, recognize the privilege that you have that I'm speaking directly to white people is the
28:44privilege that you do have to begin to dismantle these systems that have always kind of propped us
28:50up. And we got to go from there. We got to go from there. Yeah. Use what you have. Okay. Now we're
28:57about to wrap up. But before we do, I want to read more of your comments from social media. We asked you
29:02in our view a poll, which is most effective in fighting racism, A, black protest, B, economic
29:08empowerment, C, white allies, or D, policy and political presence. And here's how you voted. Let's
29:14see. Wow. Overwhelmingly, you voted B for economic empowerment, huh? Policy and political presence came
29:23in next with 23%. C, white allies got 14% and black protests got just 9%. That's really, really
29:31interesting. And thank you so much to everyone who voted. Well, everyone, this wraps up this edition
29:36of Essence Now's kitchen table talk, racism in black and white. Thank you to Devine Trentman of We Are
29:41So Z, Rich Jeswiak of Jezebel, Alexander Hardy of the Extraordinary Negroes podcast, and our girl
29:48Christina Coleman for joining us. And of course, thanks to all of you for streaming us live on
29:53Essence.com and Facebook. If you missed any of today's show, you can catch the replay shortly on
29:57Essence.com and see all our videos on our YouTube page and tune in next week for an all new Essence
30:04Now. I'm Makonjlovu. Thank you so much for watching. Thank you guys. Thank you so much. I know that was...
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