00:00Well, for more, let's cross now to Ketavan Gorjastani for our International Affairs Desk.
00:05Donald Trump finally meeting with Maria Corina Machado, who, as we saw in that report,
00:11a little bit disparaged after the ouster of Nicolas Maduro.
00:18He's meeting with her, but he also took on the telephone Maduro's successor, Delcy Rodriguez.
00:25Yes, there was a phone call with Delcy Rodriguez yesterday.
00:28It was the first phone call, known phone call, between the two of them.
00:32And after that phone call, Donald Trump took to Truth Social to talk about how great that phone call was.
00:39He even separately called Delcy Rodriguez a terrific person.
00:43But what is interesting was that he said many topics were discussed, including oil, minerals, trade, and, of course, national security.
00:51No mention there of any political transition, of any human rights issues.
00:58What you're seeing there is the confirmation that Donald Trump and the Trump administration are willing so far to work with everything that is left from the Maduro regime.
01:10Nicolas Maduro is gone, but everyone else is there.
01:13Delcy Rodriguez and all of the apparatus of the Maduro regime.
01:18And that is because the U.S. assessment is that they are best placed to sort of hold on to the stability of Venezuela because they control the armed forces, they control the security apparatus.
01:30And that, of course, is necessary if you want to hold on to the oil, to the minerals, to the trade.
01:37That is what Donald Trump is focused on right now.
01:40This is the context in which Maria Corina Machado is entering the White House in the coming minutes.
01:48Donald Trump doesn't seem to have an issue with her, but he did have those harsh words after Nicolas Maduro was taken from his home.
01:59He said that she was a nice person, but that she really did not have the support or the respect of the Venezuelan people.
02:09So what Machado is going to try to do in the White House is sort of turn the tide on that vision that Donald Trump has of her, focus on that political transition potentially.
02:22And, of course, the question that will everyone will have and we'll see if this meeting opens up to the press or not right now.
02:30It's close to the press.
02:32Will she give him her Nobel Peace Prize?
02:35Because there have been reports that part of the reason he has sort of distanced her was that he was angry at the fact that she didn't immediately hand over that Nobel Peace Prize.
02:45She did say that she wanted to share it with him, that she dedicated to him.
02:51And, of course, the Nobel Committee came into the play saying you can give the prize, but you cannot transfer the winner of the prize and she will remain the winner of the prize.
03:02But we'll see what she does.
03:03All right. And meanwhile, and I'll bring in now our guest on this, Vicente Olive, Venezuelan writer, author in French of The Fish of Caracas, which delves into the corruption that's been rife for a long time in Venezuela.
03:21Thanks for being with us here on France 24.
03:25Thanks for having me.
03:27I just want to get a sense of the mixed messages we're getting.
03:30On the one hand, me with Mario Carino Machado.
03:34On the other hand, speaking on the telephone with Delcy Rodriguez.
03:38On the one hand, talking up the opportunities with the regime that's currently there.
03:45On the other, the news of this seizure of a sixth shadow tanker in the Caribbean.
03:51Which way is the White House going?
03:54Well, it's very telling in Trump's discourse isn't actually what he says, but what he doesn't say.
04:00And in the mentions that he's done to the operation, even the day that it happened, he never talked about the Venezuelans.
04:07He never talked about the Venezuelan people.
04:09He never talked about democracy.
04:11These words were not in his discourse and he focused solely on petrol, which seems to be his only intent.
04:17So it's very difficult as a Venezuelan to perceive Donald Trump as a liberator because he doesn't even seem to be very careful or even care about the state of affairs in his own country.
04:27So why would he do that in Venezuela?
04:30The situation right now is very complicated because, as was said before, Delcy Rodriguez has to do this balancing act between placating the base and being able to offer Donald Trump the changes that he seems to want.
04:43And the question that needs to be seen is, is the pressure that the United States is exerting on Venezuela right now, with the biggest fleet in the history of the world that is parked in the Caribbean and is intercepting these oil tankers, is that pressure enough to produce a social and a political change in Venezuela?
05:02Because historically we know that what the Chavistas do, like Delcy Rodriguez, they're very good negotiators.
05:07We've had negotiations in the past with Zapatero, for example, and they always acquiesce and they say they're going to do changes and they have liberated political prisoners in the past, only to put them in jail two months later when the pressure goes off.
05:20So the question is, how long can the United States keep this pressure up and is it enough to force a transition with Delcy Rodriguez?
05:27Vicente, let's talk about those political prisoners.
05:29Do we know exactly how many have been released?
05:34We saw there was one high profile name, the son of the late singer Q Lazarus, who is free.
05:41But those are U.S. citizens.
05:43What about Venezuelans themselves?
05:45Yes, according to the most recent statistics, Foro Penal, which is the most respected ONG, NGO, reports 193 prisoners that have been liberated.
05:59The government, Delcy Rodriguez, says they have liberated 406.
06:03The totality of the prisoners seems to be over 1,000.
06:07There seems to be a lot of underreporting.
06:08And the problem has been, too, that many of these prisoners that have been released have been in such a state that they're practically unrecognizable, emaciated, beaten, traumatized.
06:21These people now have to have suffered a lot.
06:23So we are not going to be satisfied until absolutely all the political prisoners are liberated and until the people that are outside of the country can go to the country without being put in a jail.
06:33That's the first demand that we would have.
06:34Vicente, when there was that operation that basically came in and took Nicolas Maduro, kidnapped him, according to some,
06:49the reaction of people in Caracas was mostly to keep a low profile.
06:55They didn't know what was happening next.
06:57Now, two weeks later, is that still, is there still a wait-and-see mood inside of Venezuela?
07:08Yes.
07:08Well, Venezuelans know historically that if we celebrate too early, then you wind up in jail.
07:14This happened before in the process in 2014, 2017.
07:17And even the most recent protests, when people were taking down statues by Hugo Chavez, people manifested this readout, the one for freedom, and then they wound up in jail.
07:27So every Venezuelan knows that removing Nicolas Maduro wasn't enough to bring down the whole regime.
07:33So people are very afraid of celebrating and winding up in jail, which has happened and which is happening.
07:39And they're actually checking people's WhatsApp and their private phones.
07:43They're at checkpoints.
07:44And if you exclaim that you don't like Maduro, that you like the United States, you may go to jail.
07:50So people in the country are very wary.
07:52It is still a police state.
07:54People do not want to go out.
07:56The civil society has been beaten into submission after being rebuilt by Maya Carina Machado.
08:01So people don't know how to organize, and it's very difficult for them to take to the streets right now.
08:05That's why you're not seeing that, and you're seeing it especially outside of Venezuela, where people are celebrating.
08:10Kervan Gorjastani, we saw in Cuba a tribute paid for the 32 Cubans who were a part of the security detail of Maduro killed on January the 3rd.
08:22Cuba, which has rejected as political manipulation the U.S. sending relief for those who've been hit by Hurricane Melissa.
08:31Again, the thought about how the U.S. is sort of looking at Venezuela, looking at Cuba, looking at the broader Caribbean region right now.
08:42Well, look, right after the operation that took out Nicolas Maduro and brought him to the United States,
08:50almost immediately after Donald Trump started threatening the president of Cuba, the president of Colombia,
08:59then the leadership in Cuba, even Mexico.
09:03So he immediately started threatening, basically saying,
09:06you better play within the interests of the United States if you don't want to end up like Nicolas Maduro.
09:13But of course, Cuba is different than Venezuela, is different than Colombia.
09:19And over the weekend, Donald Trump really focused again on Cuba.
09:24And that, of course, in part is likely because within his administration,
09:28his secretary of state slash national security advisor is Marco Rubio,
09:33who is the son of Cuban immigrants, who is a longtime opponent of the Cuban regime
09:40and who would love nothing more than to see the same thing happen in Cuba that happened in Venezuela.
09:46That said, so far, these are only threats.
09:50Donald Trump said Cuba should strike a deal with the United States, quote,
09:56before it is too late.
09:57He also said, make a deal or face the consequences.
10:01What deal?
10:02What consequences?
10:03That we don't know.
10:05One thing is for certain, that is more the position of Marco Rubio,
10:09and he stated that many, many times, is the hope by some of those hawks
10:15that are left within the Republican Party is that there will be a trickle-down effect
10:20from what happened in Venezuela and that will help possibly topple the Cuban regime.
10:25Venezuela is the top oil supplier to Cuba.
10:29About a third of Cuba's oil needs have been coming from Venezuela
10:32with that sort of breakthrough in Venezuela for the United States
10:39and the quarantine, as they call it, of the oil going in and out.
10:44Cuba hasn't received any oil shipments since about mid-December from Venezuela.
10:50And so the thought is, if there is no oil,
10:52then the economy is going to get even worse than it already is.
10:57That could lead to protests and possibly the toppling of the regime.
11:01That is, of course, a long-term play.
11:04But right now, I don't think that the focus is on going after one person
11:09in the Cuban regime, but more likely to put increasing pressure on the Cubans,
11:17partly through that lockdown of energy.
11:20Vicente Olive of Kenevan Gorgestani, many thanks for being with us here on France 24.
11:27Stay with us.
11:28There's much more to come, more news, plus the day's business.
11:32And we'll be having a look as well at the lineups for the semifinals
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