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The big talking points of this episode of News Today are the Goa nightclub fire and the IndiGo meltdown.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You are with the news today, your prime time destination news,
00:05newsmakers, talking points and we've got big stories breaking this evening. Indigo has reported
00:11to the DGCA the meltdown. Should heads roll is the big question that we will ask and we've got
00:18big breaking news also on the Goa nightclub fire. The owners have fled the country. Who will be
00:24held accountable? Murder by negligence and corruption in Goa. Hard-eating show, no one
00:30will be spared tonight.
00:37Breaking at the moment, we are getting big breaking news that the nightclub owners who
00:42are responsible, we believe, for all that went wrong in that Goa nightclub in which 25 people died
00:48have now escaped the country. That's right, they've freed the country and gone to Thailand, to Phuket,
00:54by a 5am Indigo flight. Who tipped them off? How did these co-owners, who the Goa police
01:00claimed were most wanted, have now left the country? This, remember, comes within 24 hours
01:06of that tragic incident where numerous illegalities allegedly winked at by the Goa government led
01:12to the death of 25 people. We are calling it murder by negligence and corruption. The owners
01:19have fled the country. Saurab Luthra, Gaurab Luthra took an Indigo flight to Phuket, fled
01:25within 5 hours of the fire tragedy. Dibesh Singh, who's tracking this story in Goa, joins me
01:31now. Dibesh, this is crazy, bizarre. They are supposedly giving Instagram videos from Phuket,
01:38claiming that they are grieving and they have fled the country. What was the Goa police doing?
01:43What was the Delhi police doing if they have fled from Delhi?
01:46Well, exactly, Rajdeep, this is a shocking development that has come to light and that has been confirmed
01:55by the Goa police forces that Gaurab and Saurab Luthra, within 5 hours of the incident. Remember,
02:03the FIR points out that the fire broke out at 11.45 pm and at 5 am, within 5 hours of the incident,
02:12they took a flight to Phuket and that too, an Indigo flight from Delhi and they managed to reach Phuket
02:20untouched. They were not bothered, they were not stopped, not Goa police, not Delhi police. No one had
02:28any idea that the owners of Birch by Romeo Lane had fled to Phuket. This morning, we had checked with
02:35senior officials whether they are in India or you suspect that they have fled the country. We had
02:40received information that a lookout circular had been issued. But now, this evening, this confirmation
02:47has come from official sources that both the prime accused responsible for the death of 25 innocent
02:54persons have fled the country and that too, on an Indigo flight, within 5 hours of the incident. Rajdeep.
03:03Divesh, okay, Divesh Singh giving those details. Remember, all of this is coming against the backdrop of that
03:10horrific fire that took place in a prominent nightclub in Goa. 25 people, many of them poor staffers,
03:17were killed. There are serious allegations now being made that illegalities were allowed to continue
03:23despite demolition notices given by the local panchayat in Goa. Goa is India's premier tourism
03:30destination, but now it appears Goa is for sale. Take a look at our top story tonight.
03:37No fire equipment. No safety protocols. Just one exit. The Burj by Romeo Lane, the popular nightclub in
03:52Arpora, was a time bomb ticking right under the noses of multiple authorities, functioning with their
03:59blessings. The lapses were too glaring to be missed. The tragedy on Saturday midnight that killed 25
04:07people, by all accounts, was murder by negligence. The basement functioned as the kitchen and the
04:15changing room. Three of its exits were sealed. The only one opening led to the restaurant above.
04:22The club itself had only one narrow entry point. The fire brigade could not reach the club. They had
04:30to be stationed 400 metres away. Here's more. The club did not have any fire safety equipment.
04:37But it performed fireworks during shows. And it was illegally constructed on salt-pan land.
04:44A blatant violation. But the club brazenly advertised itself to be the only island club of Goa.
04:54A long list of violations ignored by an equally long list of departments.
05:01The fire department that incidentally comes under CM Pramodh Sawant himself.
05:06Goa Coastal Zone Management Authority. Deputy Collector Panchayat. Directorate of Panchayats.
05:16Goa State Pollution Control Board. As expected, a blame game is on.
05:24BJP's local MLA Michael Lobo blames the Panchayat for issuing license in 2023.
05:30The Sarpanch claims a demolition order was issued in 2024.
05:58CM Pramodh Sawant has ordered an audit of all clubs in Goa. A step which many say has come too late.
06:20The committee shall be constituted under the chairmanship of the secretary revenue
06:24for conducting the audit of such clubs, business establishments, etc. which are operating without
06:30a valid permission and wherein there is a likelihood to be gathering of the people in large number.
06:37The CM has also gone on record saying that I will support the Mamladars and I will support the
06:43police in investigation. Does the police and Mamladar require his support?
06:48Are they not authorized as authorities to do what they are supposed to do without the
06:54without the permission, so-called permission of a CM? They have Suomoto powers that they can
07:01take on these things. But sadly, he has put his name there also asking, telling support.
07:06Club owners Saurabh Lutra and Gaurav Lutra are in hiding but posted an Instagram message offering condolences.
07:16Meanwhile, India today visited another eatery run by them in Goa. This one in Vagator is right on the
07:23beach, again in violation of many norms. This club, which is also named as Romeo Lane, operating on Vagator
07:36beach, which was sealed just yesterday. But you can see that this club has been constructed on wood.
07:46There were several complaints against this club. There are CRZ violations, there are pollution violations,
07:52the complete construction is illegal. And over that, the land on which this club has been erected
08:00belongs to Goa government. It belongs to the Department of Tourism. There was a High Court
08:07order for demolition. There was a Department of Tourism order for demolition. But only
08:14superficial demolition took place. And again, the club was functioning as it was earlier.
08:22I was also threatened. Because of my threat, I put another complaint on from my friend Nilej
08:31Fatte. The authorities never supported us. But can you just imagine, on Sunday they came and sealed the place.
08:37The police have arrested the general manager and three staff members of the Arapora nightclub.
08:45The government has suspended the former Panchayat director, the former Goa Pollution Control Board
08:51member secretary and the Arapora na Goa Panchayat secretary. But will any crackdown be complete without
08:58acting against the political masters who help illegal clubs thrive without any checks in Goa?
09:04With Divyesh Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
09:15Okay, let's raise then the big questions, the inconvenient questions that really go to the heart of this issue that
09:21every going car in India must raise. Murder by negligence and corruption is what we are calling it.
09:27Question number one, how was the club operating without necessary permissions in spite of numerous complaints?
09:33Why did Panchayat ministries state the demolition order issued by the Panchayat citing that the construction is illegal?
09:40Why did the fire department not act against the establishment in spite of not having clearances?
09:46The club is situated in a saltpan area. How was that allowed?
09:50The original landowner filed many complaints against the club. Why was no action taken?
09:55Owners of the club are issuing Instagram status expressing grief, yet Goa police says they can't find them.
10:01Why and how? How did the Pollution Control Board give permission to this club?
10:06Why no action taken against the home department personnel, either the fire or police?
10:11Remember, no fire safety audit was done. How many clubs in Goa are operating exactly like this one,
10:17without permission and how? Which politicians are protecting such establishments, allowing them to go illegally?
10:23Joining me now, Advocate Amit Palekar, President AAP Goa. He's been appearing for some of the Panchayat leaders who are seemingly made scapegoats.
10:31Advocate Carlos Alvarez, MLA Congress. Jack Ajit Sukija, President Travel and Tourism Association of Goa.
10:38We also hope to be joined by Savio Rodericks, Editor-in-Chief Goa Chronicle, and he's been with the BJP.
10:43Appreciate you all joining us. Amit Palekar, I want to ask you straight away direct question.
10:48You are targeting the Chief Minister calling for his resignation.
10:52Why should the Chief Minister resign for a fire of this kind that's taken place in Goa?
10:57It seems the entire system has been corrupted. So why are you singling out the Chief Minister only?
11:04Well, Rajdeep, please understand the fact that the departments which controls excise,
11:08departments which control pollution control, but departments which controls home,
11:11under whose gambit the entire clubs come. They are all under the under Chief Minister.
11:17Please also understand the fact that few months back, almost a year back and then few months back,
11:22I had very categorically stated that the coastal belt is being extorted. There is an extortion cartel
11:29which is being run by the government and then they are extorting money for the fact of allowing these
11:33clubs to function without proper permission, beyond permissible time limits. Now, I have a copy of the
11:39complaint which was filed in December 2023 by the owners of the land against one Mr Khosla, wherein
11:47there has been categorically the copy has been marked to the Chief Minister, has been marked to Delilah Lobo,
11:52who is the MLA, and where he has specifically stated that the construction is illegal. It's in the middle of
11:57a salt pan, right in the heart of a salt pan, next to a creek. GCZMA, which conducted inspection of this
12:04of this particular site, has said that it is illegal, but they said that it does not come within the
12:09ambient of theirs, as it does not come under CRZ. Now, thereafter, there is a notice which is issued, a demolition
12:16order which is issued in April 24. And in March 25, the panchayat asked the club to stop the
12:25functioning. And the notice has been marked to the police department, to home department and our
12:30departments. Now, if you really ask me how this club was allowed to function by the excise department,
12:35how police and control board allowed it to be functioning, how the police department allowed it
12:39to function, how the MLA overlooked all this, who are now crying crocodile tears. Now, if you really
12:45ask me, all these departments are under the control of the chief minister. Now, if the chief minister
12:49feels that the government officials have to be suspended, why no action has been taken against
12:55the department of excise chief? Why no action has been taken against the police officers who have
13:00allowed this club to function? And why is the chief minister only targeting three officials, the serpents,
13:07but when he is also the head of these departments? Now, that is why we say that the chief minister must
13:12have some hand in letting this allowed to be function or the departments or having an administrative
13:18failure to have looked upon in a functioning of… You're making… You're making a very important
13:27point. You're claiming that complaints were filed, complaints were filed, marked to chief minister
13:32Pramodh Savan. Remember, the home ministry also in Goa is under the chief minister. The fire department
13:38reports to the home ministry. No fire safety audit was done in this particular instance. There are also
13:44questions of how it could have been built on a solid pan. Advocate Carlos Alvarez, let's be very clear.
13:50This is in the first instance. There have been reports of a Hafta culture going on in Goa now for years,
13:56about how many of these casinos are… Many of these restaurants are operating, gaming companies are
14:02operating, all of which, some of which at least, are certainly illegally operating. Did it require a
14:09fire like this to wake up? In fact, a BJP MLA, Mr. Amonkar, had specifically referred to this in the
14:15last assembly session, that this was on illegal land. Is the entire system involved? Is it about
14:21individuals or if the system has completely collapsed from panchayat level right down to the chief, right
14:27up to the chief minister? Rajdeep, in fact, you have hit the nail on the head and you have echoed what
14:34everyone speaks about things happening in Goa. The corruption is so deeply embedded that everybody knows
14:44that anything is available here for a price. You can pass off any illegality by claiming it to be
14:51legal as long as you have the right political connections with the right colour of what you give.
14:58Now, this is very important for you to know. I'll just pause for a moment and tell you that while we
15:03speak over here, in Panjim, there is a fire raging in one of the setups for the Serenity Art Festival right
15:12now, which is catching fire. And exactly one year back, I'm told the same venue, a similar structure also
15:21caught fire. Now, you have already had the Uphar tragedy in Delhi. I don't know whether any lessons
15:28have been learned from there. Now we have had something in Maharashtra in Bombay. And now we had
15:33that in Goa, and now again repeating, I don't know if any loss of life or injury to people in Panjim
15:39next to the Kala Academy. But this is an indication of how deep rooted the system is.
15:46So you are, no, no, sir, sir, point, sir, point and, sir, point, is it about individuals or is the
15:53entire system, including, we are told even opposition leaders are given a share of the hafta.
15:58This hafta culture now cuts across. Delilah Lobo and Michael Lobo, who are the MLAs who are in these
16:04areas, they were once with the Congress, now they are in the BJP. So the entire system has got corrupted
16:09in Goa. They were hardly there for six months. They were hardly there for six months with the
16:15Congress. They got elected and within less than six months they departed and they went into the BJP.
16:20And they said that they needed to do development and so therefore they went. And we know now what
16:24development is going on. But that's in between the lines you can understand what I'm trying to say.
16:30Now I'll tell you there's one thing which is happening. If people like us who are locals over
16:35here, we apply for permissions, we go through the entire routine. It takes months, years sometimes
16:41to get permissions, licenses and all that. But somebody from not from Goa comes here, not only
16:48does it get expedited, fast-tracked, but whenever it suits, even the laws are changed. Can you believe
16:55this? I've even opposed it on the floor of the House by saying you are bringing this amendment
16:59government, particularly to benefit A, B or C. And it is still being bulldozed because they have the
17:04numbers. And this is the way the system is working. And let me be honest with you. I don't want to say
17:10that every officer is corrupt. I have also been an Advocate General, so I know I've been a government
17:15advocate before. And since my years of experience being serving for the government, defending the
17:21government, let me say that every officer is not necessarily corrupt. But one place where they fail is
17:27when they are pressurized, because there are threats to the officers. You'll be put in cold
17:32storage, or we will file an FR against you, we'll pick up something and suspend you, or we'll transfer
17:38your family, or you'll be shunted in some corner. This is the threats which are being metered out,
17:43and they buckle down. Of course, corrupt people are there, and they are also making hay while the sun
17:48shines. But it cannot happen. Just one moment. It cannot happen. See, the scale of this entire club,
17:57it cannot be allowed to be operating without the knowledge of the authorities and the government.
18:04How can you say, we are not aware that this structure has been run in the middle of a salt
18:09pan over here? I take your point. Mr. Alvarez, I take your point. In fact, I'm putting the roll call
18:17of those who have been guilty of negligence. Fire Department under Chief Minister Pramod Savan,
18:22Goa Coastal Zone Management Authority under Union Ministry of Environment and Forests,
18:27Deputy Collector Panchayat under Mauveen Godino, Directorate of Panchayat under Mr. Godino,
18:32all BJP leaders, Goa Pollution Control Board under Chief Minister Pramod Savan.
18:36I want to bring in at this stage, Jack Ajit Sukicha, because you're with the Travel and Tourism
18:41Association. Just before Christmas, you couldn't get worse news. You have earlier had taxi mafias.
18:47There's the casino culture, which has grown. Now, you have these nightclubs functioning on
18:52salt pan areas. What does this do for tourism? As it is, we are seeing high-end tourism,
18:57moving away from Goa, going to Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Thailand. I mean,
19:01that is there a consciousness among the tourism operators also that this must stop? Can you all
19:07go to the authorities and say, this is too much? It's affecting Goa's brand image?
19:13First of all, I would like to condone the fact that so many people have died. I think it's a very
19:19sad and tragic thing what has happened, fellow colleagues in the industry. And this fire is
19:25something which is, I mean, it's really shocking what has occurred. Coming to your question about what
19:31it does to Goa's tourism image, yes, I think post-COVID, there has been a spurt in a lot of
19:37unregulated businesses and businesses which are coming fly-by-night, operators who have just come
19:44up. And it is really important that the government takes action against these operators so that,
19:52you know, and brings them in line. Fire and health cannot be compromised at any cost.
19:58And it is important that these guys are bought in line. There has been regular industry which has
20:03been operating for many years.
20:04No, but have you all raised these issues? Have you all raised these issues with the government,
20:08sir? Have you all raised the issues with the government that there are these illegal
20:13clubs? What is the response you get?
20:15The government has taken note of it and has promised action, but it has not been able. I mean,
20:23they still operate. So, I mean, it has not been very effective, to be fair.
20:27Okay, you're saying it's not been effective. Advocate Amit Palekar, you know, it seems to me, as I keep
20:37saying, there seems to be collusion at all levels. We've known of Panchayats who have been accused of
20:42corruption. We've known of MLAs and it's going right up the order. What is, is there any solution at all?
20:50Will this fire wake up the people of Goa at all, in your view? Because the truth of the matter is,
20:56the BJP itself, the same people are getting re-elected, election after election, even those
21:01who have been accused of serious corruption. So, it almost seems that the people of Goa don't care enough.
21:06See, Rajdeep, one thing I can tell you is that, you know, when the people are corrupt,
21:12you get corrupt government. And I have said it very categorically yesterday that Goans are shameless,
21:17and that is what BJP thinks of us. Now, when I say this, I really want Goans to understand this
21:22fact that I am not using it derogatory to you, but I'm using it, you know, to offend you, to make
21:27you feel guilty of the fact that the blood of these 25 people who lost their lives is also on your hands,
21:32because you have let this happen. You have let BJP believe that they can trample Goa and Goans,
21:38and they can get away with whatever they want by just taking care of things personally or in a manner
21:44that they can manage the voters. That's what they've been thinking. But honestly, it's only 32%
21:49of the voters of Goa who are getting them elected, whereas the 67% seems to not like BJP. But the
21:56fact remains is that all the opposition also need to understand this fact and somehow come to a single
22:01point of agenda of defeating this corrupt BJP. I think now it's for Goans to take charge. We have
22:07tried our best to get them together. That does not happen. But the Goans need to wake up. And if this
22:12does not wake up Goans, I would only say may God bless us all, because I don't understand where
22:18we are heading. You know, nothing moves without money. As a lawyer, I've seen if you want to start
22:23industry, you don't get permissions. If you start, if a Goan wants to run a restaurant, see, I have,
22:29I am connected to this industry. My family is into this business. We have almost given up on almost all
22:33of those places because of the fact that we can't compete with the money that is kind of money that
22:38is that gets pumped in and that gets paid to these corrupt politicians.
22:41Where is the money coming from? No, Amit, where is the money? Where is the money coming from? The
22:47owner in this case is a Delhi owner. He has a string of nightclubs across the country, especially entire
22:53two towns. Are you saying all this entire business is working on cash alone? The money is coming from
22:59outside Goa? Absolutely. You see a lane like Tito's lane, which we were proud of that lane once upon a
23:08time. I cannot enter that lane today. I just went there a few days back and I was like shocked,
23:12except for the few clubs which are owned by the Goans. The rest have turned into a different place
23:16altogether. You go to Anjuna, you go to Wagath or in other places. There is not a single Goan owner who
23:21could afford to run a club today because they cannot pay this kind of extortion money that they're
23:26asking for. I have very categorically stated, Rajdi, a few months back that the club owners are being
23:33made to pay 2 to 10 lakhs per month as bribe money. This is single. Then there is other money that goes
23:39in. And I've been very clear. I've given out some names, but government doesn't blink eye on that
23:44point when I say that. I'm sorry to say that. I take your point. You see, there is this Hafta culture.
23:52There is, I take your point. You know, I would refrain from saying Goans are shameless. I don't
23:59think that's the answer. But Savio joins me at the moment. Savio Rodriguez, you've been with the BJP.
24:04Here you see Congress are all coming together, attacking BJP. You, just a minute. Savio,
24:09you've also tweeted, you've also tweeted saying that enough of corruption, we need to wage a war
24:15against it. It's white collar terrorism. Now, please tell me, there's been a BJP government
24:21for more than a decade, 15 years in 2027 will be complete. Who, where does the blame lie? Who
24:27should be held accountable? You know, if you were to ask me who has to be held accountable,
24:33it's the entire administration of the Goa government at this point of time, Rajdi. And yes,
24:39I do support the BJP. And when it is wrong, it is wrong. It's as simple as that. That's the ethics of
24:44our journalism and the political stand we take on issues. Now, let me tell you why I'm saying that.
24:51This property, this particular nightclub was running for over two years. Two years being illegal,
24:59two years in a salt pan, two years serving liquor, two years with no proper fire protocols in place.
25:08Are you telling me nobody in our system and administration was able to fight it,
25:13to know it or to check it? If they did, 25 people would not have died,
25:18Mr. Rajdeep. This is white collar terrorism. Today, we have gone to war. We went to war with
25:24Pakistan when 26 innocent people died in Palgam. 25 people have died here. Shouldn't we not go to war
25:31against corruption? Who are the officers behind? Where were the exercise officers?
25:36No, but I've been hearing... No, no, but I've been... No, no, Savio... Savio,
25:42none of these officers would be doing what they are and granting permissions or turning a blind eye unless
25:47they had ministerial protection. You know that. I know that. Every going car knows that. And yet nothing
25:53seems to change. It's not as if this has been the most horrific example of what's been going on on the
25:59ground for a long time. But that is exactly, Rajdeep, why I wrote a letter to the Prime Minister himself
26:06saying that he should he should personally take interest in looking at the corruption levels
26:12in Goa. This is a stark example where corruption has led to death of 25 people. Can you please tell me
26:20what did the Lutras have other than money that nobody opened their eyes to the illegality that has led to
26:28the death of 25 people? So, if the chief minister in Goa, if the administrative in Goa do not have the
26:35courage, do not have the courage, then somebody at the center has to take a stand because we cannot allow
26:41Goa to be destroyed in this manner, Rajdeep.
26:47So, therefore, I ask you, Carlos Alvarez, you're hearing now someone who supports the BJP also
26:52saying enough is enough. Will a stage ever come where the political class of Goa comes together
26:57at least on this one issue? You all talk about saving Goa. Goa is being destroyed. My Goa. I'm a
27:03Goinkar. My father grew up in Madgao and I'm seeing how the entire ecology is being destroyed,
27:08how the culture is being corrupted. Can all Goans come together or not? This is the tourism paradise
27:14of this country which is being destroyed and becoming some kind of a wild west, particularly
27:19North Goa. Do you believe that Goainkar, that politicians can actually come together or
27:26everybody in some way or the other has a stake in allowing this system to continue? A quick answer.
27:31It's a fight which we have and which we have to undertake. We should not buckle down. And I want
27:38to tell you one thing that whenever I have raised in the assembly with evidence, I simply don't speak
27:43without having evidence. I've spoken of evidence of corruption in the PWD, corruption in the exercise
27:49department, corruption in the police. What has the chief minister done? Just ignored and not even
27:55responded and nothing. They are so thick skinned because I am guaranteeing you that it is part of
28:01the system that they are aware they're getting something and that's why they're keeping quiet or
28:06turning a Nelson's eye. I've known your father also as a very good cricketer too and I've known him before
28:12when he was here and I used to meet him very often when in Goa and I know how much he loved Goa as much as
28:17you do. And we all feel for Goa and I think it's a time that people across party lines must get together
28:25because we are selling not just our forests, our hills, the rivers, the coasts. Everything in Goa is
28:30getting destroyed and it looks like BJP is in a race that before the next election we must finish our
28:37agenda, finish Goa and Go home with pots of money.
28:40Okay, you know that's a very depressing thing to hear that Goa is up for sale. Those are very strong
28:49words that have been used but those are words that perhaps reflect the reality and it required
28:54unfortunately this tragic incident perhaps for this to become a national embarrassment.
28:59As I said this is not a normal fire, this is death by negligence and corruption and that is really why
29:06it should be called murder in a way. I really hope Goans wake up, I hope the country wakes up to the
29:11fact that you cannot allow a state to be up for sale in this manner. I appreciate my guest joining
29:17me here on my talking point tonight. Thank you all very much. Thank you. A friend of mine has just been
29:26watching the debate and calls it the tragedy of the Delhification of Goa. We'll talk about more on that
29:32later but I want to turn to the other big story because mayhem and chaos entered the seventh day
29:38over the Indigo mess which showed little sign of easing. In fact Indigo has responded to the DGCS
29:45show cause notice citing five reasons for the meltdown, minor technical glitches, schedule changes
29:50linked to winter, adverse weather conditions, increased congestion and then new crew rostering rules
29:57seeking more time to file a detailed reply. But here's the truth, as of this morning over 400
30:03flights should cancel, 134 in Delhi, 127 in Bengaluru, 112 in Hyderabad, 71 in Chennai, 21 in Ahmedabad,
30:1116 in Srinagar and at Delhi's IGI airport a pile up of baggages and I'll show you those images
30:16was seen across terminals a day after the airline was ordered to return all the displaced luggage to
30:23passengers. DGC has granted Indigo an additional 24 hours to respond to its notice. The civil aviation
30:30minister telling the Rajya Sabha this was an operational issue created by the airline itself. So who's to blame?
30:37The ministry, DGCA or indeed Indigo itself? Let's go straight to our other big talking point.
30:44So let's raise the big question on that Indigo crisis. Indigo meltdown. Will heads roll? Will accountability be fixed for those responsible for this mess? And what is ailing India's civil aviation industry?
31:02Joining me now, Captain Gopinath, founder, Air Deccan, Dinesh Trivedi, former union minister who's also been a qualified
31:08pilot himself, Captain Saurabh Bhatnagar, former Indigo and Air India Express pilot. Appreciate you joining us.
31:15I want to come to each of every one of you. First, Captain Gopinath, do you believe where should the buck stop here?
31:21Should it stop with the ministry, DGCA or indeed specifically with Indigo airlines?
31:27I think it should stop with the board of Indigo because the CEO reports to the board and I think
31:42there is a moral responsibility there for taking being themselves introspecting and holding themselves
31:52accountable and come and explain to the nation what happened because this is a catastrophe that has
31:57never happened on this scale where the catastrophe of one airline becomes the catastrophe for India.
32:09You know, you're saying that the board of directors must take responsibility. I want to put to our viewers
32:15this graphic. Who are the board of directors? It's an A-list. Vikram Mehta, chairman and non-executive
32:21independent director has been has led one of the major MNCs shell in India. Rahul Bhatia,
32:26managing director of Indigo airlines and a lot of questions are being asked about Mr. Bhatia,
32:31who reportedly now lives in Switzerland most of the time. Pallavi Shroff, non-executive independent
32:36director is of course leads one of India's top corporate firms. B.S. Dhanoa, former air chief
32:42marshal is a director. M. Damodran, former IAS has of course been in various positions including
32:49SEBI, non-executive director. Amitabh Kang, former IAS also of course non-executive independent
32:55director was earlier CEO Niti Aayog. Anil Parashar, non-executive director. Michael Gordon
33:01Whittaker, former FAA administrator and Greg Saretsky, former CEO of WestJet. So these are all
33:07top names. You're telling me that these top names Captain Gopinath must be the ones who must answer as
33:14to why they didn't hold the CEO accountable? Is that what you're saying? That they should have known
33:19what was coming? No, what I'm saying is that normally in the Indian context, the majority shareholder,
33:31even though he has a board, normally you know things go through his language, his message that he sends.
33:39The board is generally, even though they're very highly accomplished with impeccable credentials,
33:46almost all of them, our boards are generally not that courageous in getting involved in the
33:56nitty-gritties and putting their food down. You know, that's generally across all boards, not this board.
34:02So by extension, I feel that the majority shareholder who is also the managing director should
34:08come up front and face the camera and tell what it is. And obviously then it extends to the CEO,
34:16because the CEO should have had the courage to tell the managing director, who is the CEO now,
34:24and there's the chairman, and told Mr. Rahul Bhatia that I cannot implement unless you give me the
34:32clearance to do ABC, because it's not possible. You know, he should have had the courage. But obviously,
34:39what comes across after almost every report, and I've spoken to many pilots, including my own
34:47experience and the mistakes that I myself did, that there was arrogance and they thought they could,
34:55you know, get the rules. That's a good point. That's a good point.
35:03They thought that, let me just finish. You're making a good point. Did media monopoly?
35:09Yeah, go ahead. Just last two things. See, Indigo, to pay tribute first to, you know,
35:17give the devil where it's due. It had built an enviable track record, blemishless, in fact, in
35:24accident, fatal accident-free track record. An airline that's had grown to 420 aircrafts,
35:33you know, on-time performance, excellent operations, well-turned-out crew,
35:40airplanes, market cap of $22 billion. It's a global airline. It is not a... So they were an efficient
35:46airline. But somewhere along the way, I think, arrogance has crept in. And people are removed
35:56from the operational requirements, because the board, especially, there should have been one
36:03board member who is totally dominant in the operations, in this particular case, who should
36:10have had the oversight on the CEO. I don't think that it is there. Rahul Bhatia, he has to be credited.
36:18There's no doubt about it, for what he has built. But his other board member, partner, Rakej Gangwal,
36:26you know, they had a... He was absolutely an operations guy. He was the CEO of a big airline. He had exited
36:34a lot of cloud of disputes amongst themselves. He should have been replaced by someone with that
36:40kind of operational experience. And I think there's a lot of arrogance, which has crept down.
36:47They thought they can get away by bulldozing the DCC... Sir, you take... You mentioned the word
36:55arrogance now three times. And I want to take that. When you become a media monopoly with 66% market
37:01share, a certain arrogance can creep in. Dinesh Trivedi, do you believe this is where perhaps
37:06the civil aviation industry also has lost its way? You have a Vistara and Air India coming together,
37:13which is one part of it. And then you have Indigo in a dominant share. Once you have two airlines
37:18dominating India's civil aviation, which is rapidly expanding, you're creating a duopoly, if not a
37:23monopoly, a duopoly. And as Captain Gopinath says, it can also lead to arrogance among the major
37:28market player. Do you believe that's the fundamental problem? Or is it regulatory oversight that the
37:33DGCA should have made sure that India's top airline complied and did not subject the DGCA almost to
37:42some kind of arm twisting?
37:48Rajdeep, I am going to take a very balanced view. And having run a huge transportation system in the
37:57railways and having seen civil aviation very closely, first of all, it's a very, very complex business.
38:05It's not easy. And Captain Gopinath and my other co-panelists would know it better.
38:11Here is a situation, to begin with, it should never have happened under such situation.
38:18If it is fog or any other situation, one can understand. Secondly, Indigo having
38:26such a majority of the shares, that is incidental. I don't think the government has stopped any other
38:33players to come in. They could very well come.
38:36We have to accept one thing, that Indigo is one of the world class with 2,200 flights,
38:44over 65,000 employees, and giving subsequent employment to subsidiary industry.
38:51The reason I am mentioning this, that airline transportation business is also part of security
38:59of the country, which connects in far to Bangalore and Bangalore to Dheemapur.
39:05Mr. Trivedi, Mr. Trivedi, you can, you can be the best.
39:08And, and, sir, let me complete. Sir, but there is accountability. Sorry.
39:12Sir, you can, there has to be accountability. Where is the accountability? You can be as big
39:17and a world class airline. A world class airline doesn't mean you're not accountable.
39:21Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, your channel is news without the noise.
39:30So, if you could let me speak for a minute, then I will clarify what I am trying to tell you.
39:34Sure. None of you, none of us, neither Captain Gopinath, nobody knows actually what happened.
39:40Without knowing what happened, how are you going to judge that who is at fault?
39:46So, my first thing, this is what I am going to come before you interrupt it. My first thing is,
39:52let there be an absolutely independent inquiry and find out what happened.
39:59The inquiry should also tell us whose head should roll, whether it is Indigo, whether it is the board
40:06or whether it is DGCA, whoever. But let me tell you, this conspiracy theory, I don't believe,
40:12because this government is very strong and it cannot be blackmailed by anybody.
40:17Now, having said all these things, please understand to create such a product is not easy.
40:23So, accountably, who, you, I, me, cannot be the judge to have accountably without
40:30knowing the details of it. Secondly, when you see passengers, I was also a victim.
40:35I was also very upset at the airport. But that doesn't mean those innocent girls and boys,
40:40you start shouting and you shout manhandling. That's not civilization.
40:44So, yes, the situation should never have come. Indigo has placed themselves to a very
40:50important transportation system. Inquiry should be done and whoever is held accountable
40:56should be punished or whatever action legally needs to be taken should be taken.
41:01Because the matter had gone to DGCA, had gone to the court. What transpired between them,
41:06it should be made public. Sir.
41:11Okay. Captain Bhatnagar, you know, Dinesh Trivedi wants to take a balanced approach.
41:15But most people are saying heads must roll now. You have to set an example. Unless you do so,
41:22market monopolies that have been created will create potential disruptions in the future.
41:27There is, of course, the concern that Indigo simply took the system for granted. Do you agree,
41:33as someone who's flown Indigo, that the pilot's concerns were never being registered? A pilot told
41:38me off record, an exploitative system had been created. They were being treated like bonded labor.
41:43Is that true? Or is that an exaggeration?
41:46Hi. Good evening, Rajdeep. You know, a lot has been said in the last four or five days regarding this
41:51crisis. And it is now very amply clear that Indigo saw it coming and could have taken action. They had
41:58two years to prepare for this, for this new FDTL, you know, scheme to prepare for that. But I don't know
42:04what they did, why it happened. On the contrary, they increased their vintage yield by 6% without even
42:11hiring the new pilots. So naturally, it had to happen. And whether it will again happen in future,
42:17we don't know because there is no other place. Now, as regards, you know, treating as a bonded
42:22labor, I would agree on that. But yes, the Indigo works on a lean frame, means that, you know,
42:27they have a very less number of, or just bare minimum requirement as far as the, you know,
42:32our, you know, framework says, or our law says. But that's why they are, the pilots were obviously
42:37hard pressed. And that's why we had so much of, you know, fatigue reporting and sick leaves and
42:43everything. They were giving just bare minimum time for their, you know, rest period. And that
42:48is why this new FDTL came into existence of 48 hours of rest period and two landings at night
42:55and increasing for night timing. But now everything has been diluted again. That means Indigo, I would
43:01not say, yes, people are saying arm twist, but yes, what if it is not an arm twist, then what,
43:05what actually it is? DGC are rolling back the entire rules till 10th of February. We are back to the
43:10square when what the pilot prodded and everybody, you know, demanding for so long. Yes, it means
43:16why that the first instance DGCA came out for the new FDTL means that the pilots were hard pressed,
43:22means that they were not getting the proper rest. Yes, I have flown in Indigo, yes. But yes,
43:27that was, you know, long, not, not very long time back. But now with the increasing of number of flights,
43:31number of, you know, the aircraft, everything, the, the pilots were not hired. And in this crisis,
43:37the international operations would not stop. Why? Indigo could have, you know,
43:42diverted few pilots. I take care.
43:47So, so there is a huge question over Indigo at the moment. The buck, do you believe Captain Gopinath,
43:53therefore, as you, where you started off, is with Indigo or is it with DGCA? Is the regulatory
43:59oversight system also in this country in need for a complete overall, a quick answer?
44:04Yeah, see, definitely it is with Indigo. The reason why I said the board, because the normally,
44:15the head of an organization has to take responsibility. Okay. But having said that,
44:21in answer to Mr. Dinesh's questions, I'm speaking out of, not experience alone, but I'll give some data,
44:30and facts. Because I spoke to a lot of pilots who are flying in Air India and Indigo. These rules were
44:39introduced by DGCA because of increasing pressure from the pilots, Indian Pilots Association,
44:46asking them to change the rules of FDTM. That was done through a consultation process where everybody
44:56were called, including Air India, Vistara, all the airlines were called, and everybody participated,
45:03Indigo participated. Then the rules were issued, and they said, this is what is being issued. If you
45:09want any particular exemption, ask for it. So some airlines asked for some exemptions, like cargo,
45:15saying that, look, I'm a cargo airline. I need to have more landings. That was given. Others were not
45:22given. They said, you comply with it, because it was, this demand was there from pilots for last 10
45:27years. Now that, that, that, that is right or wrong, you first implement it, then you again,
45:33you appeal for it. No, so where, sir, where does, sir? Yeah, one second. Then the high court. Sir, sir,
45:39sir, where does, so no, no, does the buck stop with DGCA or with, no, what would, if you were advising
45:46Indigo today? What would you tell them? No, no, no, no, no. The buck doesn't, I admire the DGCA
45:52because they didn't succumb to pressure to postpone the enforcement of the rules on the 1st of
45:59November. Everybody knows this. There was pressure on them to give exemptions and not implement it.
46:07And they thought that if Indigo with 66% market share doesn't do it, which used to happen during Air
46:13India's time earlier, then they will not implement it. They'll, they'll keep postponing it. But this
46:18DGCA stood firm. A lot of other issues with the DGCA, we need to have a professional, they should have
46:23an IAS guy, all those kinds of things. You need to pay them a higher salary. But in this particular
46:28case, the DGCA, the ground, especially after the Ahmedabad accident, that the pilot fatigue is one of
46:34the major issues of accidents. So then Indigo should have followed it. They had enough time.
46:40Okay, I take your point. They didn't recruit the pilots required in time. Sir, I, sir, I take your,
46:47I take your, I take, I take your point. Let me therefore bring in Dinesh Trivedi for a final
46:52word. Dinesh Trivedi, you see, the minister is saying that we will set an example. The question
46:58is the balance of, can, does the government of India have to intervene now to get Indigo to fall in
47:04line or is Indigo too big to fail or too big to, it can simply get away?
47:08Rajdeep, nobody is bigger than the country. And I think the balance view is that Indigo has
47:19played a major role. So are Air India and service. So all the airlines are playing a good
47:23role in the country. We cannot have any airline fail. That is why there are two things I would like to suggest.
47:30One is, I am always biased towards the pilots. And I can tell you and I have told you many times
47:36that pilots do fly under a lot of stress. And pilots do require some kind of a hearing.
47:42Whenever there is something happens, we always bang the pilots. So, so it is a proper thing to have
47:49independent inquiry. And whoever is found wanting must face whatever punishment is required.
47:58But we cannot afford to have such a nice product which is the world product. And there are corporate wars also.
48:05But there is a place for ICPA, Indian Commercial Pilot Association to reform which is going to be good for Indigo,
48:16good for DGCA. There should be a dialogue. This situation should never ever come again. Period.
48:26Whether it will come again or not depends on whether airlines are, as I said, it is about monopolies.
48:32The last thing you want is the kind of duopoly that has been created. Today, the minister said in
48:38parliament he wants five airlines, five world-class airlines should operate in India. Whether that will
48:43happen or not, we don't know. Captain Gopinath, 20 seconds. Do you believe that stage will come
48:48where we will have, in the next year, five top airlines operating in India and not just two major
48:53players? A quick answer? Yeah, I think it will happen. It should come. I think duopoly or monopoly in
49:00any sector is against the interests of the country, consumer, as well as the monopoly itself. The monopoly
49:07will destroy itself. If it is a monopoly for long, you saw what happened to Ambassador Kass. So in all sectors,
49:15we need private sector, but multiple private sector participation, not cartelization. I think that is
49:23the answer because if you had 20 airlines today, I'm not blaming anybody for not having 20 airlines. Indigo
49:29has done a great job. I have a big salute to them. I said it in my article too. But when you become a monopoly,
49:35you become a monster. Anybody? Okay, I think those are good last words. When you become a monopoly,
49:45you can also become a monster. And you will end up becoming arrogant as well. And therefore, Indigo needs
49:54in a way to be brought in line. They cannot escape responsibility and not just an individual, but the
50:00entire decision-making systems within Indigo need a complete overall. I appreciate my guests joining us.
50:06Remember, this is an issue we will continue to tackle in the days ahead. Thanks very much for joining me.
50:13Okay, so look at this. Today, Parliament has been debating Vande Matram for 10 hours. But we have
50:21consciously chosen on news today to focus on issues of today. Because a vixit Bharat cannot be built from
50:28the rear view mirror. It has to be built by looking at issues for today. So what did I focus on?
50:33On the Goa fire, which is a classic example of corruption in the system, and the Indigo issue,
50:39which again shows what happens when you create monopolies and duopolies. They affect the citizens
50:44of the country. But I will leave you with the Vande Matram debate. 150th anniversary of our national song,
50:50another opportunity for Prime Minister Modi to hit out at the Congress, and Pandit Jawala Nehru in particular,
50:56whom he said succumbed to pressure from Muslim League to remove two stanzas of Vande Matram.
51:01And Priyanka Gandhi Wadra, who hit back claiming the BJP remained obsessed with Nehru and not the real
51:09issues of our day. You decide who won that debate, Prime Minister Modi or Priyanka Gandhi Wadra. For now,
51:15all I can say, stay well, stay safe, good night, Shubratri. This will be the programme that will continue
51:21to focus on the issues of today that matter to Indians today to build a better tomorrow.
51:27Thanks for watching. Stay well, stay safe, good night, Shubratri.
51:31.
51:32.
51:38.
51:46.
51:48.
51:50.
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