- 5 weeks ago
- #considerthis
ReformARTsi, a coalition of art practitioners seeking reform in arts policy, and they are urging the government to rethink how the arts are valued, managed, and funded. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with ReformARTsi members, Santhiagu Thiagu, who is an award-winning theatre practitioner, and June Tan, producer, scriptwriter & collective member of the Five Arts Centre.
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00:00Music
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:19Tonight we look at a growing call to reform Malaysia's arts and culture sector.
00:26Reform Artsy, which is a coalition of art practitioners seeking reform in arts policy,
00:32they are urging the government to rethink how the arts are valued, are managed and are funded.
00:41So today on the show we have two members of Reform Artsy.
00:45Santiago Tiago, who is an award-winning theatre practitioner. She's a member of Reform Artsy.
00:51And Jun Tan, who is a producer, script writer and collective member of Five Arts Centre.
00:58Committee member of Reform Artsy. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here with me.
01:02I mean, where do we begin with the arts?
01:05I think where I would like to begin, if I may, and I would start with you, Jun,
01:09is if we could get a lay of the land in terms of, I really want to surface the state of the arts in Malaysia today
01:19and the lived reality of art practitioners.
01:23How would you then describe the state of the arts today in Malaysia's ecosystem of arts and culture?
01:31Firstly, thank you for having us on your show. It's great to be here.
01:34The arts in Malaysia, firstly, is really quite diverse and huge.
01:39And actually, different sectors of the arts are doing things differently
01:44and they are progressing at different stages.
01:46So, for example, you can't really compare the film industry, maybe the performing arts,
01:51and then there's also traditional arts, and then there's contemporary dance,
01:55and then there is literature, and then there is design, there is fashion, there's culinary.
02:00So, it's really massive.
02:03So, I think one of the problems is we look at the arts too generally.
02:09And therefore, arts currently, I think, is very fragmented.
02:13The government's approach to it is very fragmented.
02:15Artists also are in different positions or different fields, which is fine.
02:22Diversity is fine.
02:24The state of arts education is, unfortunately, very, very low in Malaysia,
02:28especially in public schools.
02:30For example, in primary school, you have 48 hours of arts education per year.
02:37No.
02:38That's two full days of arts education.
02:40And if you think about your primary school experience,
02:44that would be like the recorder or like potato printing.
02:48Wow.
02:49So, what happens is we try and move into co-curriculum, which is things after school.
02:55So, one of the biggest challenges right now is getting art teachers and also artists to go and teach school children.
03:02So, I mean, it's quite a big problem.
03:06So, we're trying to look at it from a very holistic point of view,
03:09and we'll get into our suggestions actually to the government soon.
03:12I want to come back into how we think about the arts.
03:15And you're right, it's so multifaceted, it feels almost impossible to lump it under one big umbrella.
03:22But I want to come to you, Santiago.
03:24When you look at the current state of Malaysia's arts,
03:26what is it that you think we should be proud of?
03:29Clearly, there's something there that we must value and appreciate.
03:34So, when you look at it, what should we be most proud of?
03:39And what feels maybe broken or needs fixing or needs improving?
03:45What worries you the most?
03:48So, many prompt questions there.
03:50Thank you so much for having me first.
03:53Well, for me, I believe this art scene is very diverse, very vibrant, very lively.
04:00It has its art, but it also has its weight as well.
04:06Because for someone who has started in the art scene for the past two years, I'm still new.
04:12But I feel very welcomed because I'm seeing for the past recent years,
04:17I'm seeing the surging of new talents.
04:20And that is one thing we should be proud of.
04:23Although a little is given, but we are making wonderful, wonderful things with whatever we have.
04:30So, that's one thing that we should be proud of.
04:33And yeah, at the same time, as June mentioned, it is, the ecosystem is fragmented.
04:38It is uneven because we don't have our own house, I would say,
04:46because we have been placed under different ministries.
04:49And we are segmented in that thing.
04:53And so, there, it causes the uneven policies and not enough funding and all those things.
05:01That is a bit concerning and worry about that.
05:05Yeah, it does feel a little bit like it's been sidelined or overlooked or being pushed to the periphery.
05:12Why do you think that is, June?
05:14Why do you think that the arts remain peripheral to national priorities?
05:20Is there, is it, are the challenges rooted in something more structural,
05:24like how we value the, we value arts and culture as a society?
05:31Do we value the arts?
05:33That's really a tricky question.
05:35And also, you know, when you were speaking, Santio,
05:37it reminded me of the situation where, you know, you mentioned it was very vibrant.
05:41So, actually, if you, if you go into the art scene,
05:43you find a lot of artists and arts practitioner.
05:46But as an audience, you're wondering where they are, right?
05:48You know, when was the last local play you watched?
05:52I can't remember.
05:53Or local film that you watched?
05:55But for us, there's always work.
05:57So, it's the, the community is really supported by a very group of,
06:02a small group of, like, really passionate people.
06:04And an example of that is Cloud Joy, for example,
06:08is a website that sells tickets.
06:09And last year, we had, like, $14.5 million worth of sales in the Klang Valley
06:14for ticketed performances.
06:16This is just performing arts.
06:17So, there's, like, the people of Kl want to watch arts.
06:22And they're going for the little arts thing.
06:24And we are also presenting the arts.
06:26But other than that, everything else is not supported.
06:29Right.
06:30So, it's, it's, it's almost like it's being suspended by, you know,
06:34a group of, like, small, dedicated people.
06:37But I think the call, I think, to answer your question,
06:39I think people do want to engage in the arts.
06:42Do, and clearly, because we watch television, we watch film, we, you know,
06:47when we travel overseas, we go and watch a play, we go to the museums, you know,
06:52we, you know, we, we're always touched by stories about, you know, artistic and poetry.
06:57So, we, as a nation, I think, average Malaysian, want to engage and appreciate the arts.
07:04But I think what is stopping us are these structural, kind of, like, infrastructure thing that is actually quite legacy.
07:14Okay.
07:14So, when we think about that, when, you know, the name is Reform Artsy.
07:19So, if we were to talk about reform in the arts, what exactly is it that needs to change?
07:25And I'm wondering here, you know, if we were to look at it from the perspective of institutional change or policy change, mindset change,
07:34what, what would you, how would you define what reform looks like within the arts sector?
07:40I'd ask both of you, but June, can you begin first?
07:42I think, firstly, we need a plan.
07:44A plan.
07:44Currently, there is no blueprint for arts and culture in this country.
07:48So, we at Reform Artsy, we have five calls.
07:51And the first call is actually to set up a task force to develop a 15-year national arts and creative, cultural, creative blueprint.
08:00That is lacking.
08:01So, you kind of, if you don't have a roadmap, you kind of don't know where you're going.
08:05That's one.
08:07And the, and then you need a body to implement this blueprint.
08:10And earlier, we talked about how diverse arts and culture is.
08:13So, actually, we need a home.
08:15We need a Ministry of Arts, Culture, and Creative Economy.
08:19Right now, it's all fragmented.
08:21For example, film is under Ministry of Communication.
08:24Literature is under Ministry of Education.
08:26Design, fashion is under METI.
08:30Performing Arts is under MOTEC, you know.
08:33And, and MOTEC is Ministry of Tourism and Culture.
08:36So, at the, recently, at the announced, the budget that was announced,
08:40like, 700 million is going to Ministry of Tourism and Culture.
08:44But, mainly for tourism.
08:46Okay.
08:47So, there's very little for culture.
08:49So, again, we need a home that looks into arts, culture, and creative economy.
08:54And we're not, sort of, like, the anak tirikan with, like, another ministry.
08:59We're not under Belia and Sukan, you know, youth and culture.
09:01Or, we're not under tourism.
09:03A dedicated ministry that looks into the issues about arts, culture, and creative economy for the country.
09:08Okay.
09:09And, yeah.
09:09So, that was two of the five, the five asks from Reform Arts.
09:14See, what are the other three?
09:16What are some of the other issues that you would like to see reformed in the arts?
09:22So, yeah.
09:23In terms of infrastructure, so, the home, so, we don't place under ministry, like, add-ons.
09:30So, and, yeah, that's under infrastructure reform.
09:34And if policy, we need a long run, like, 15-year arts and culture blueprint, which,
09:40so that it will help us to, in the long run, for the 15 years.
09:45So, every time the government change, or the, so, we don't have to reset each and every time.
09:51Yeah.
09:51It's like, yeah.
09:52The continuity of it, right?
09:53Yes, the continuity will be there.
09:54So, there's no reset things.
09:56And if, in terms of mindset, this is kind of personal to me, because people nowadays need
10:03to accept there is the value in a different minority language, performing arts, or a disabled-led
10:12work.
10:12So, they need to understand the value in it.
10:15They need to accept that art is for everyone, like, seni untuk semua.
10:19Because seni is not seni untuk sestengah, because seni untuk semua.
10:24And they need to have a mindset of, like, art is not a luxury, and it should be something
10:29that is very accessible, like, even the layman can go and watch.
10:34And, yeah.
10:35And also, art is, art is not a hobby.
10:40So, they are professionals who are doing art for a job, as a job.
10:46So, we need to respect that as it is.
10:50So, yeah.
10:50That's the mindset, mind shift that we need to work on.
10:55And I believe this can be worked on from the grassroot in terms of education.
11:02So, increasing the hours, the pendidikan seni, not only pendidikan seni visual, increasing
11:09the hours in school will help on the mind shift.
11:13You brought up a really interesting point.
11:15Can I ask you, because you are a person with a disability and a theatre practitioner, and
11:22you also, your theatre productions are in Tamil, you have all these wonderful, the intersectionality
11:31of it is wonderful, right?
11:32So, I do wonder if certain communities are being sidelined from the arts, certain art forms
11:39are being sidelined, and how do we think about cultural policy that is truly inclusive?
11:46And I also want to note that a lot of this happens in the Clang Valley, right?
11:49So, geographically, it's centred here.
11:52But what if I was living in Perak, and I wanted to be involved in the arts, consume some, you
11:59know, a theatre, a production, for instance, that seems to be very concentrated here in
12:04urban centres, do you have any perspective in terms of how you would like to see arts policy
12:10more inclusive?
12:13For me, yes, it is now a bit on the sideline.
12:18If we look at the disabled performers or minority languages and rural artists, so they are getting
12:30the spotlight, maybe not getting a seat exactly in a room where we need to hear their conversation
12:38as well.
12:39So, there are dialogues often being unheard or not visible.
12:44So, I think the task force, as June mentioned just now, it is something that we are working
12:50on which is an important thing because that will create a body which will hear the whole,
12:58the holistically, everyone's conversation under one roof.
13:01And then they will go like how to go about it like in terms of inclusivity and cultural policy.
13:08And yeah, as you mentioned, it is a bit centralised in Clang Valley, I think that is the one thing
13:14that we are calling also, we need to decentralise the budget.
13:18Yes.
13:19Because, you know, different localities, they have different groups of people and the way
13:24they look at arts and culture is very different.
13:26So, we really feel like it should be decentralised and looked into like what is the local inclination.
13:35So, that's a big mind, like a shift in mindset also for the government, you know, to decentralise
13:41these things.
13:42Yeah.
13:43Someone in Padang Besar, someone in Kota Tinggi, someone in, you know, Miri, they all have different
13:50kind of like cultural preferences, inclination and what is there to develop.
13:55So, I think this formation of this task force is really important and it's really important
14:00to hear like the grassroots kind of voices, which is especially important for culture,
14:07arts and culture.
14:08And there has to be a clear distinction between arts that is for commercial good, commercial
14:13gain, you know, like whether it's film, fashion or stuff and art for public good, which is community
14:20building, social cohesion, you know, or healing, you know, or all these things and you cannot
14:26expect an ROI for arts for public good, you know.
14:30Okay.
14:31Well, talk to me a little bit about that because how do you feel about the term creative economy?
14:37Because there seems to be a gap in the way we understand art as expression versus art as
14:44an industry, art as an economy.
14:48Are you comfortable with the term creative economy?
14:51I think it serves its purpose.
14:53Unfortunately, I feel sometimes it's lumped into, it gets conflated or it's confused with
14:59all arts.
15:00Okay.
15:01Again, we have to differentiate that, you know, art doesn't really serve like a material
15:06gain all the time, you know, and what the creative economy does, it tries to create value
15:11out of things, right?
15:12It's transactional, it's about I put in this amount of work and then this is my ROI for this.
15:16But a lot of times art also is here to give like meaning to things, meaning to our lives,
15:23meaning to our relationships, meaning to things, meaning to our actions and our behaviors.
15:28It's a way to reconcile with our past, to connect with our past, to connect with our identities,
15:34to connect with our communities.
15:37And that cannot be necessarily a financial transaction.
15:41So I think that distinction has to be very clear.
15:45So I think a creative economy will serve its purpose and it should.
15:50And the thing that's interesting is like the building blocks for both.
15:53It's kind of the same thing, imagination, creativity, you know, and all the tools that
15:58you know, you know, you need to, as an actor, you train to be an actor or you train to direct
16:02or you draw, you know, visual arts.
16:04So it's coming from the same pool, but actually the products are different.
16:08And the, you know, the outlook is different.
16:10So don't try and lump, for example, like, you know, Sandhya who just want to play, award
16:14for her play, for short and sweet, Tamil play.
16:17Like, it's a live performance, but you can't lump her with, you know, Mariah Carey's concert.
16:23So you can't have the same guidelines because they're on stage, you know.
16:28So for example, right now, like live performances, we're all in the same category.
16:32So we go through the same requirements as a Mariah Carey concert, like the same, you know.
16:38So there has to be like a, like a real understanding of really like what is the government trying
16:45to achieve arts and culture.
16:47So one last point, you know, so like, you know, creative economy, I understand that that's
16:52really for your, maybe for your voters, for your budget, for your economy.
16:57But if you really want the soul of the people, it's the arts and culture that we were talking
17:01about, you know, things that give meaning to our lives.
17:04Do you find that it's difficult to maybe convince, so now you have this collective, right, of arts
17:12practitioners who are calling for reform, calling for more funding, calling for, you know, a blueprint
17:18and maybe even a dedicated ministry.
17:21Do you, are you concerned about having to convince a minister in cabinet who may be looking at strictly
17:30ROI in terms of budget allocation or looking at what GDP returns the arts sector can bring.
17:38Are you concerned about how to convince the public and the policymakers why arts and culture
17:45should be a public investment, you know, a priority in terms of public investment.
17:51Like healthcare.
17:52Yes.
17:53Like a right for, you know, every Malaysian should have, you know, access to good healthcare.
17:57Yeah.
17:58So just like every Malaysian should have access to arts, to be able to learn about the arts,
18:02to be able to engage in the arts, to be able to participate in the arts, you know.
18:05So for our weekend, you know, your options are not a mall, your options are actually like,
18:11you know, performances, live art performances, shows, stuff like that.
18:16Are we concerned about convincing, actually the most average, everyone that we speak to wants
18:23arts to develop.
18:24Okay.
18:25Okay.
18:26So the, the kind of public will is there already, right?
18:29Yes.
18:30But also there should be a mind, there should be a shift in also the, what we, how we think
18:35about the arts.
18:36Ah.
18:37So you, you just remember like COVID, right?
18:39And we were all in lockdown and, and, and stuff.
18:42And there was only what was kept alive for these essential industries.
18:47If you think about it, it was about healthcare, keeping you alive so that COVID won't kill
18:51you or other things won't kill you.
18:54And it was also like the transport business to bring food to your house.
18:59So essential was things that kept you breathing and alive the next day and food to keep you
19:06alive.
19:07And this went on every day.
19:10So you think about being kept alive for, or are you being kept alive for?
19:15Right.
19:16The purpose.
19:17Yes, the purpose.
19:18What is the purpose?
19:19And then all of us, we were on, we were reading books, we were discovering our artistic sides,
19:24we were doing like cooking, we were trying out new dishes, we were being creative and
19:28imagination.
19:29Yeah.
19:30Right.
19:31So we were doing all these imaginative, creative things to remind ourselves of our human imagination,
19:36our creative, our evolution on this thing.
19:39So I would flip the thing and say essential industry is actually arts and culture because
19:45that's the thing that gives us reason to wake up and do something.
19:49You know, the others is just like, it's the life support system, right?
19:52It's just to keep you breathing and, you know, eating.
19:55So that's quite an interesting thing.
19:57Flipping the script.
19:58I like that.
19:59Why do we have the arts?
20:01I do want to ask you when one of the calls in your petition, your call for reform is having
20:08a dedicated ministry.
20:10And I wonder whether we can think through what that means.
20:14There's a layer of bureaucracy that comes when you have a ministry dedicated to you.
20:20And I do wonder what the existing bodies that are around, why can't we look at strengthening
20:29them to address what's the concerns or the issues of the arts sector?
20:33Why do we need to have a dedicated arts ministry?
20:36Why do we need a new, another layer of bureaucracy?
20:40And have you thought about why current, the current system cannot address the issues that
20:48is being faced by the arts industry at the moment?
20:51It's just that right now it's all in different silos.
20:54That's the key thing.
20:55We're not calling for like a new ministry.
20:58We're just calling for the pulling of the department.
21:01Oh, like a consolidation.
21:02Yeah, all the different things, you know, because they're all in separate, separate ministries.
21:07And this is a legacy issue.
21:08It came from, you know, the past.
21:11And I mean, right now arts and culture has grown and has evolved, but it's time to pull
21:16all the departments kind of together.
21:18And actually this is where we ask the government for help because who knows the system better
21:22than them, right?
21:23So, and even if you talk to government officials, they would agree with us because, you know,
21:31how do they work when things actually just get lost because it's, oh, ini bukan kebencian kita.
21:38You're passing it around, right?
21:39Passing it around.
21:40For sure.
21:41Okay.
21:41So when we think about arts education, you mentioned arts education.
21:46What was it that you would like to see changed in the arts education?
21:50Is there something missing from the way we're teaching creativity in our schools at this point?
21:57Santiago, do you have anything you want to add?
21:59Well, first thing is, yeah, need to be more time allocated for the arts.
22:05More than 48 hours.
22:06Forty, yeah, definitely not.
22:08That's not enough.
22:09And then they shouldn't be narrowing it to a syllabus because there's a lot of arts in
22:15Malaysia.
22:16We are diversified and in terms of like cultures and ethnic, there is a lot.
22:22But in education, we are narrowing it to a pendidikan serni visual, which is like drawing,
22:29art, painting kind of thing.
22:31But when I'm from someone from government school, so I do know when I was studying, I don't get
22:40the idea that theatre is falls under arts.
22:43I think I didn't know that music also falls under arts because it doesn't serve the pendidikan
22:49serni visual doesn't serve the motive of like teaching me what is art exactly.
22:53So need to have a better definition for it, like how to input the knowledge of arts, like
23:00instill them from the young.
23:02And also art, I believe it's a process oriented teaching.
23:07It shouldn't be teaching something to memorize only.
23:10It should teach like the techniques of doing it.
23:13It's a process oriented, not like a result oriented.
23:15And art, it should be something that we are experiencing and experimenting it.
23:21So if we are doing an experimenting, experiment in science lab, if it's failed, it's still
23:26a failed experiment.
23:28But if you are experimenting art, it will still an art in a different perspective.
23:33So yeah, that's the way of teaching it.
23:35It should be a need and revamp a bit.
23:39Yeah, definitely.
23:40In the couple of minutes that we have left, I want to ask you both if you have a message
23:45for our audience tonight.
23:47People who are watching who may feel like, hey, I want to be involved.
23:51I want to call for more arts in my life, in my community, my society.
23:56What can they do?
23:57How can they contribute?
23:59June?
24:00Yeah, so we have this petition going and it's directed to the Prime Minister.
24:05We have five calls to and five suggestions to how we can reform the arts.
24:08First is this setting up a task force for this 15 year national blueprint.
24:13We need a plan.
24:14More arts education, strengthen arts education in our public schools.
24:19Uphold the creative rights of artists.
24:22This includes IP and also the social rights.
24:25And because a lot of us are like gig economy workers, so that also needs to be taken care
24:30of.
24:31Number four is have at least consistently 0.1% of the budget dedicated to arts and culture
24:38every year.
24:39So we're saying, so the two catchphrases at least, so it can be more, we welcome more.
24:45And the second catchphrase is consistent.
24:47Actually, there are three catchphrases.
24:48And third one is to arts and culture.
24:50So don't put us with tourism, don't give it to the youth, you know, don't love us.
24:55It's just dedicated to arts and culture.
24:57And the fifth is we need our own home.
24:59You know, we need a ministry that really champions arts and culture and creative economy.
25:03And to actually find a way, a mechanism to kind of draw the different departments together
25:10and to find, to go really down to grassroots and figure out what is it that people are about.
25:17Because we're talking about like culture and culture affects us, every one of us.
25:22Everyone.
25:22On a daily basis.
25:24Well, that's it for the time that we have.
25:27And I'm so sorry we could talk about arts for a long, a lot more.
25:30But I do want to thank you both for coming and shining a light on this issue.
25:34I think it's high time that maybe we kind of get together and institutionalise it, make
25:41it more consistent, have more attention poured into it, make it a priority for the country.
25:47Thank you both for being on the show.
25:49I appreciate it.
25:49That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This.
25:53I'm Melissa, if you're signing off for the evening, thank you so much for watching and good night.
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