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00:00These are stories of the saints.
00:30Thomas Becket was consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury in 1162.
00:56This was a position second only in power to the king.
01:05But in the ceremony, there was a pivotal moment when Becket was called upon to select a random
01:12passage from the Gospels, Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree.
01:22The Gospel according to St. Matthew 2119, never shall fruit be born of thee throughout
01:31eternity.
01:32And it was forthwith cast into the fire.
01:38It was a troubling omen.
01:46The story of Thomas Becket is the story of the pitched battle between church and state
01:52in England, of which institution would win ultimate power over the other.
02:01Most merciful God, forgive me for what I am about to do.
02:10The battle over the divine right of kings lasted hundreds of years and left a long line of martyrs
02:18in its wake.
02:21Becket was the most famous.
02:26So famous that Henry VIII tried to strike his memory from every record in existence.
02:33Becket was the son of fairly prosperous, devoutly Catholic, Norman immigrants who lived in Cheapside
02:40section in London.
02:41He was a man of great ambition, still searching for an opportunity.
02:48God?
02:49O come, Holy Spirit, and bring down from heaven a ray of thy light.
03:02Without thy influence, there is nothing in man which is not weakness and guilt.
03:12O cleanse that which is sordid, bend that which is stubborn, guide that which is wandering.
03:23At this moment, the monarchy was in turmoil.
03:27When King Henry I died, his daughter Matilda staked her claim.
03:33But the Norman barons refused to accept a woman on the throne, and they backed her cousin Stephen,
03:41which led to a brutal civil war.
03:46And in the midst of all this strife, Becket had an interview with Theobald, the Archbishop
03:51of Canterbury.
03:52Have the carriers arrived?
03:58They're coming, my lord.
03:59I want to finish the letter to Chichester.
04:01Of course.
04:04That matters within your jurisdiction should come to us.
04:08Now Theobald was caught in the middle of the conflict because he'd sided with Matilda.
04:12I'm told you're eager to learn, and quick to speak your mind.
04:23I cannot say, my lord, that's for others to decide.
04:26I have no time for modesty, but much need of able minds and eloquent tongues.
04:31I understand you, my lord.
04:33Even a lowborn man such as yourself, if he proves useful, can improve his station through
04:39our Holy Mother Church.
04:43The carriers, my lord.
04:45Tomorrow we move to my Surrey Estates.
04:47These men are for my coffers, which go wherever I go in time of war.
04:51Nothing could be left to chance, I understand.
04:56We shall see.
04:59Theobald was wealthy.
05:03He had palaces in Canterbury and Rochester and Saltwood, homes in Sussex, Middlesex and
05:12Surrey.
05:14He collected ecclesiastical fees and tithes to the church, as well as feudal dues from
05:19all the territories he controlled.
05:24To rise in the church was to have real power, but it was a constant struggle to hold on to
05:29that power.
05:31To use it not in the interest of the crown, but in the interest of promoting the teachings
05:36of Jesus in everyday life.
05:40If I had wanted the order of service to be rearranged, I would have called for it.
05:45The original order of the service is sanctified by ancient customs.
05:48I need no reminder from lowborn, ignorant men who-
05:52The Archbishop is well aware of the venerable nature of practiced customs, which is why his
05:57very slight alteration in the order of blessings is founded in church precedent.
06:05Where can this be found?
06:07In the fourth Decretum of Damasus.
06:12Precisely.
06:14Ah.
06:29Well played, Thomas.
06:31Thank you, my lord.
06:34I should have castled my king.
06:39Another game?
06:41If you wish.
06:43Theobald gave some of the money he was making from surrounding churches to Beckett.
06:47And so Beckett became rich.
06:50Now to modernize, it might look like corruption, but within the world of the church in 12th century
06:56Europe, it was more of a necessity.
07:01Theobald educated him with a tutor.
07:05He sent him to Bologna and other universities to study canon and Roman law.
07:13Maintaining the political balance between the church and the king.
07:17Between defiance and compromise.
07:20This was a constant exercise for Theobald while Stephen was king.
07:25Sometimes he gave Stephen what he wanted.
07:28Sometimes he stood firm.
07:30He always walked a political tightrope.
07:35In fact, Theobald went into exile more than once.
07:40And Beckett made sure that he came back safely.
07:46Once you reach your stand, an oarsman will take you to Dover.
07:49John will have a man there who will supply you with a horse.
07:51Then you will be escorted to Canterbury and home.
07:53I'll be recognized.
07:54There will be clothing for you.
07:56There shee.
07:57You'll have to arrive at night.
07:59I can see.
08:00It's the safest way.
08:02And it's hardly been more than three months this time.
08:05Three months?
08:06Three years?
08:07It's a terrible thing to have to flee your own country with Mother Church in your hands.
08:13I pray it may never happen to you.
08:16Come on.
08:28Eventually, Matilda's son, Henry, the Duke of Normandy, arrived in England with knights and a mercenary army
08:36to take up his mother's war for the throne.
08:40And to secure his own place as the rightful heir to the throne.
08:45After nearly two decades of destructive war, neither side came out victorious.
08:53Theobald and Beckett worked both parties to negotiate a truce, careful to avoid accusations of treason.
08:59They urged King Stephen to make peace with Henry and Matilda.
09:14And as the brokers of this peace, they took the opportunity to cement the power of the church as well.
09:20Henry was really impressed by Beckett and he understood that he had played a decisive part in the negotiations.
09:33Theobald rewarded Beckett for his part in the negotiations by elevating him to the post of Archdeacon of Canterbury.
09:44But within ten months, Stephen died from a sudden illness and Henry was crime king.
09:51Dr. Thomas.
09:52My lord.
10:03Walk with me, Thomas.
10:06How are you enjoying your work?
10:07Well, sir.
10:09Walk with me, Thomas.
10:14How are you enjoying your work?
10:16Well, sir, I very much like working for the Archbishop.
10:19He is a dedicated man of God.
10:23I hear you're quite the chess player.
10:26I enjoy the game.
10:29Game of strategy.
10:31Entirely.
10:31Cunning.
10:33Indeed.
10:34I'm going to give you a larger board to play on, Thomas.
10:41I like a man of strategy and cunning.
10:46I like him even better in my court.
10:58Some believe that there was a real friendship between Beckett and Henry.
11:02Others differ.
11:04Now, the truth was probably somewhere in between.
11:06The kind of friendship you find in the business world.
11:10You know, mutual warmth, affection.
11:12And then it can just disappear at the drop of a hat.
11:17Henry made Beckett his Lord Chancellor.
11:19This was the second most powerful position in the government.
11:24But at the same time,
11:26Beckett kept his high office in the church
11:28as Arch-stephan of Canterbury.
11:30It's as I expected.
11:35I laid the groundwork for this very carefully, you know.
11:41I understand you.
11:44That's the point.
11:46You, of all people, understand
11:48that the church is God's instrument on earth.
11:58That it serves as a vital check
12:00on the greed and corruption of the ground.
12:05That his independence and power
12:08must be preserved at any cost.
12:14And to do so,
12:17the church needs
12:18trustworthy eyes
12:21and ears
12:23at the king's court.
12:27Yes, of course.
12:31If you prove yourself worthy,
12:34this will be good for us.
12:37And for Holy Mother Church,
12:40her steadying influence.
12:41Thomas,
12:48I want you to remember something.
12:51Never trust the words of princes or kings.
12:57Never.
13:04Beckett lived
13:05like a king.
13:07I mean, that's what was expected
13:09of a member of the king's court,
13:10especially the Lord Chancellor, most of all.
13:15He had a fleet of ships
13:16for channel crossings,
13:17a company of knights,
13:19an army of servants,
13:20a private zoo,
13:22finest foods and wines,
13:24kitchen staff.
13:26In many ways,
13:27the low-born Norman immigrant
13:29lived a more lavish lifestyle than Henry.
13:34So what did Beckett think
13:35that he could actually
13:38answer to both Theobald
13:39and Henry at the same time?
13:45When Henry invaded Toulouse,
13:47it was Beckett's job
13:49as Lord Chancellor
13:50to finance the war.
13:52He levied new taxes
13:53and the burden fell on the church,
13:56on the bishops and the abbots,
13:58including Archbishop Theobald.
14:01And Beckett,
14:02as Henry's enforcer,
14:04just bled his old mentor dry.
14:06Theobald actually wrote to Beckett
14:10and pleaded with him
14:11to drop the taxes
14:12on the parishes in Canterbury.
14:14These were taxes
14:15from which Beckett himself
14:16was profiting.
14:19Beckett never even answered him.
14:23Theobald paved the way
14:24for Beckett's appointment
14:25as Lord Chancellor
14:26because he wanted an inside man.
14:29So Beckett's reversal
14:32was a terrible betrayal.
14:35You have often been called
14:37and you ought to have answered
14:39a single summons to my side
14:41now that I am old and ill.
14:44Indeed, it is to be feared
14:46that God may punish your tardiness
14:48if you shut your ears
14:51to the core of obedience,
14:53forgetting the benefits
14:54you have received
14:55and despising me
14:57whom you should have carried
14:59on your shoulders
15:00in my final sickness.
15:04What did Beckett feel in his heart?
15:07Was it shame?
15:09Was he longing
15:10to explain himself to Theobald?
15:12Or did he now see himself
15:15as Henry's man?
15:18We can't know.
15:21But what we do know
15:22is that he never saw
15:24Theobald alive again.
15:27And the death of Theobald
15:28created a very convenient opportunity,
15:32a vacuum of power
15:33that Henry had to fill
15:35very quickly.
15:37Just look at me, my lord.
15:40How religious is the man
15:44that you want to appoint
15:45to that holy office?
15:46You're my man.
15:48And I want my man
15:49to be Archbishop of Canterbury.
15:51Your Majesty,
15:53are you truly asking me
15:55to choose between
15:56the Archbishopric
15:57and the Chancellorship?
15:59Why, the opposite.
16:00Think of it, Thomas.
16:01The power of the crown
16:03and the power of the church,
16:05one and the same.
16:06Years of opposition
16:09and bickering,
16:10abolished with a few drops
16:11of holy oil
16:12upon your forehead.
16:14Hmm?
16:15My lord,
16:17I must reflect
16:19in solitude and prayer
16:20on this decision
16:21alone with my God.
16:23It's fine.
16:25And I'll think of
16:26the earliest possible date
16:27for your investiture.
16:30Think of it, Thomas.
16:32Please understand.
16:33It's not a request.
16:43I, Thomas Beckett,
16:46chosen Archbishop
16:48of the Cathedral of Canterbury
16:50and the See of Canterbury,
16:54to profess and promise
16:56all due respect
16:58and obedience
16:59to our holy father,
17:00Pope Alexander,
17:01and all of his successors.
17:05So help me God
17:07through Jesus Christ.
17:12Lord,
17:13I confess
17:14my weakness
17:16for the things
17:17of this world.
17:19The things.
17:22So many things.
17:25And I ask
17:25for your guidance.
17:26What must I do, Lord?
17:33I know
17:34that my responsibility
17:36is to Holy Mother Church,
17:39to her protection.
17:42So what must I do?
17:44I pray that you allow me
17:46to walk in your way.
17:47Kyrie eleison.
17:56Kyrie eleison.
18:01Kyrie eleison.
18:06Kyrie eleison.
18:14Kyrie eleison.
18:18Kyrie eleison.
18:28Kyrie eleison.
18:30The new role of Archbishop of Canterbury
18:41seemed to increase Beckett's faith.
18:44And very quickly, his relationship with the king changed dramatically.
18:54Come in.
18:55Your Majesty, we've just received an urgent message from Canterbury.
19:03So I deliver it in a low tone.
19:07We've been told that the new Archbishop of Canterbury
19:09has just resigned as His Majesty's Chancellor.
19:13What news are you bringing me of this lowborn wretch?
19:16Doesn't have the heart to tell me.
19:18I try!
19:21I'm groveling on his knees and kissing my feet!
19:25Theobald had thought that placing Beckett as Lord Chancellor
19:31would give him an opportunity to have an inside man to work on the king.
19:36And the king vice versa.
19:39He thought having Beckett as his Lord Chancellor
19:41would give him a way to influence the church.
19:46They were both wrong.
19:48It started four months after Beckett was consecrated as Archbishop.
19:52A constant tug-of-war.
20:00It is not right that the will of the monarchy
20:03should interfere in ecclesiastical matters,
20:07nor that the hands of royal clerks
20:09should find themselves in church coffers.
20:11I hereby demand that you return all lands, properties,
20:16and incomes you so unlawfully seized from the church.
20:20You will redirect the receipt of all funds
20:23collected to the office of the Chancellor,
20:25your former position,
20:27which I myself now occupy
20:29as a result of your ill-considered decision
20:31to resign the post.
20:33Little by little,
20:36Henry stripped Beckett of all his lands
20:37and the fees he collected from them.
20:40This threatened Thomas,
20:42and he responded by excommunicating
20:44one of Henry's noblemen.
20:46By the authority vested in me by Almighty God,
20:50I hereby issue this decree of excommunication
20:52against William of Ainsford.
20:54For grave offences committed
20:58against the laws and doctrines
21:00of our Holy Mother Church,
21:01and for persistently refusing to repent
21:03and amend his ways
21:05despite repeated admonitions and warnings,
21:09he is hereby cut off from the body of the faithful,
21:12cut off from the sanctity of the church,
21:14and deprived of all spiritual privileges
21:16and benefits thereof.
21:20Excommunication.
21:21To be excommunicated meant to be cast out of the church.
21:26You became an exile in your own world.
21:30That ruthlessness Beckett displayed
21:32when he was Lord Chancellor
21:33now was turned on the king.
21:38Excommunication was Beckett's most powerful weapon,
21:41and he could even use it against Henry,
21:45stripping him of his right to rule.
21:47He did what?
21:49He did what?
21:51Am I not a patient man?
21:53Have I not given him grace?
21:55Now I have no more love for him!
21:57At the time,
21:59if a member of the clergy
22:00committed any crime,
22:01from theft to murder,
22:03he was tried and punished
22:04by the ecclesiastical court,
22:06the church court,
22:08and kept protected
22:09from the king's court,
22:11the king's justice.
22:13When a priest committed murder and rape,
22:16the power struggle between Thomas and Henry
22:18escalated even more.
22:20A priest who murders a man
22:23in his own home
22:24so that he could freely ravage
22:25that man's daughter
22:26in a bed of hay
22:27and he is entitled to protection
22:29from the royal courts?
22:31He's punished, of course.
22:32Deheaded and debowled
22:33is what he deserves.
22:34The church does not meet out corporal punishment,
22:36as you know.
22:37Lest in...
22:38Don't you quote canon law to me!
22:41You think nothing of excommunicating
22:43my nobles
22:43when your murderous priest
22:44is exempt
22:45from the highest law
22:47of the land,
22:48the crown.
22:49Again, sire,
22:50he was treated
22:51with the highest severity
22:51that canon law dictates.
22:54By God's eyes,
22:54I'll have that man
22:55hanging from my gallows
22:56with Fortnite.
22:57Not as long as the law
22:58of the church stands
22:59and my bishops are behind...
23:00my bishops!
23:09These are men ordained by God
23:12and they will be judged by God
23:13alone
23:14through the instrument of the church.
23:17Where is this in canon law?
23:19From a greater authority
23:21than canon law.
23:22These are the words of St. Jerome.
23:25A mere man should not exact
23:27a two-fold vengeance
23:27for one single fault
23:29when God
23:29judge of all men
23:31as it is written.
23:33Judges no one twice
23:34for the same offense.
23:36By God's eyes,
23:37you mete out a slap on the wrist
23:39and God says
23:40we cannot punish him again.
23:42It is our desire
23:43to heed your will
23:43in all things,
23:44my good Lord,
23:44worshipfully.
23:45If it does not go against that
23:47which is right,
23:49if it obstructs the will of God
23:50and the laws
23:51and dignity
23:53of our holy church,
23:56we won't dare give our assent to it.
23:58On this day,
24:00I put the question
24:01to you all
24:02and directly to you,
24:04Archbishop,
24:04and the question
24:05is a simple one.
24:07Will you obey
24:08my ancestral customs?
24:12The answer, my lord,
24:14is yes in every way.
24:15Salvo ordine nostro.
24:17Salvo ordine nostro.
24:21With the exception of our order.
24:24Meaning that
24:25Beckett would uphold
24:27Henry's ancestral customs
24:29only when they didn't
24:30contradict canon law,
24:32church law.
24:34This was an escalation.
24:36It was defiance of the king
24:38right in public.
24:39There's poison lurking
24:41in that sophist invention
24:42of a phrase.
24:44When we meet next,
24:45you will agree
24:46outright
24:47and expressly
24:48to my
24:49ancestral customs.
24:53Just like Theobald,
24:55Beckett had to walk
24:56that political tightrope.
24:58And more than once,
25:00he was forced
25:00to contradict himself
25:01to hedge his bets.
25:03And this angered
25:04many of his bishops.
25:04Finally,
25:07the pope instructed Beckett
25:09to just accept
25:10Henry's demands.
25:14But Henry wanted
25:15to make a public show of it.
25:18My lord,
25:19I freely consent
25:21to all of your demands.
25:24And I declare
25:25that I will keep
25:26all the customs
25:26of the realm
25:27in all good faith.
25:31And now I ask
25:32the same of each one of you
25:33down the line.
25:34My lord,
25:34the bishop of Winchester,
25:35step forward, please.
25:40I consent.
25:49Enter.
25:50The king took everything
25:51to a new level.
25:53He put it all in writing.
25:56Henry added provisions
25:57that they had never discussed.
26:00One,
26:01he put the power
26:01of prosecuting crimes
26:03committed by the clergy
26:04into the hands
26:05of the royal courts,
26:06the king's court.
26:08Two,
26:09he took the threat
26:09of excommunication
26:10off the table.
26:12And three,
26:13and worst of all,
26:14he stripped Beckett
26:15of his property
26:15and he charged him
26:17with fraud
26:17and embezzlement
26:18during his tenure
26:19as Lord Chancellor.
26:23Like Theobald,
26:25Beckett went into exile
26:27in France,
26:28but a much lengthier exile.
26:29He left all the worldly
26:34corruption and backstabbing
26:36behind.
26:39He lived in a monastery
26:40where his existence
26:41became more and more
26:43ascetic
26:44and his faith in God
26:45grew.
26:51Henry and Beckett
26:52met twice during his exile
26:54of six years.
26:56Both times,
26:58Henry needed something
26:58from Beckett
26:59and Beckett wanted
27:01to pave the way
27:02for his return to England.
27:04And both times,
27:06it ended in a stalemate.
27:08It's good to see you, Thomas.
27:11Your Majesty.
27:14You ready to come home?
27:15I am, my lord.
27:17I want to be back
27:18with my people.
27:20You can.
27:23You must understand
27:24it's easy.
27:27It's entirely up to you.
27:30It's also up to you.
27:34Thomas.
27:36Why is it you won't
27:37just do what I want?
27:39I cannot, my lord.
27:41I must not.
27:44I have an obligation
27:45to protect Holy Mother Church
27:47for she is
27:49the dwelling place
27:50of God.
27:52Mother Church
27:53is the dwelling place
27:54of your power
27:55and you're using it
27:56against me.
27:57All the power
27:58God grants us
27:58we use for the good
27:59of the realm.
28:01Your Majesty.
28:16After six years
28:17is in exile
28:17with the king's permission
28:20Beckett finally returned
28:23to Canterbury.
28:25God Almighty
28:26I offer my thanks
28:30and undying devotion
28:31for allowing my safe return
28:33to my beloved country
28:34and my beloved church
28:39with whose care
28:41you have entrusted me.
28:42He was welcomed as a hero
29:02by his monks
29:02and by the local citizens
29:04because no matter
29:06how inconsistent
29:07his behavior
29:08he had stood up
29:10for the church
29:11against a power-hungry king
29:13and then
29:15the power struggle
29:17started up again.
29:19A man who has eaten
29:20my bread
29:20who came to my court
29:23poor, a lowborn clerk
29:25and I
29:25I have raised him high
29:28and now he draws up
29:29his heel to kick me
29:30in the teeth
29:30he has shamed
29:32my kin
29:33he has shamed
29:34my realm
29:35and the grief goes
29:36to my heart
29:37and none of you
29:39have avenged me.
29:44They were knights
29:46on the fringes
29:46of Henry's court
29:47and they were out
29:49to prove themselves
29:50to the king.
30:05Where is the archbishop?
30:08Here I am.
30:09Go to the cloisters.
30:11I'm not running.
30:14May God's will be done.
30:15The king
30:19has tried
30:20to keep the peace.
30:21You
30:22have excommunicated
30:23his bishops
30:24and now
30:25you're trying
30:26to take the crown
30:27away from his son.
30:28Lice
30:28I tried to exalt
30:31his crown
30:31not take it.
30:32God's wounds
30:33how long
30:33must we bear this?
30:34And in the lord's battle
30:35I will fight
30:36hand to hand.
30:38Come
30:38answer before the king
30:40I will do
30:42no such thing.
30:43I warn you
30:44you're no longer
30:45under his protection.
30:47I am under
30:48God's protection.
30:51Come out
30:51of this
30:52church.
30:55If you're going
30:55to kill me
30:56you're going
30:56to do it here.
30:58Come out
30:59of the church!
31:00You have no business
31:01to touch me!
31:02You pimp!
31:04Pounder!
31:05Hit him!
31:07Hit him!
31:08Do it here!
31:09I think I'm ready
31:36for death.
31:47The knights
31:48were forced
31:49to murder him
31:49in the cathedral.
31:52Beckett strengthened
31:53the power
31:53of the church
31:54by forcing
31:55Henry's men
31:56to violate
31:57its sanctity.
32:03It was said
32:04that Beckett's
32:05blood
32:05had miraculous
32:06properties.
32:11His relics
32:11were carefully
32:12guarded
32:13and he was
32:14buried quickly
32:14in a stone crypt
32:15to prevent
32:17Henry
32:17and his followers
32:18from seizing
32:19and destroying
32:19the body.
32:23Beckett's shrine
32:24became one of the
32:24most famous
32:25holy sites
32:26in Europe
32:26and within
32:28three years
32:29of his death
32:29he was canonized
32:31by Pope Alexander.
32:36Legions of pilgrims
32:38from all over
32:38Europe
32:39made their way
32:40to Canterbury.
32:46Henry recognized
32:47the importance
32:48of joining
32:48the cult
32:49of the martyred saint
32:50so he allowed
32:53himself to receive
32:54a public
32:54though mostly
32:55symbolic
32:56flaunting
32:56at the hands
32:58of Beckett's
32:58monks.
33:01In the struggle
33:02for power
33:02between the king
33:03and his archbishop
33:04Beckett had
33:08the last word
33:08but the war
33:11between church
33:12and state
33:13went on
33:13for centuries.
33:14350 years
33:18after Beckett's
33:18death
33:19Henry VIII
33:21who was bent
33:23on destroying
33:23the Catholic
33:24Church in England
33:24so that he could
33:25divorce his wife
33:26and remarry
33:27got revenge.
33:32The name
33:33and likeness
33:33of Thomas Beckett
33:34was removed
33:35throughout England
33:36from every
33:37missal
33:37and every
33:38prayer book.
33:39But of course
33:42he is still
33:43remembered
33:44and his
33:45saint's day
33:46is still
33:47celebrated.
33:52Beckett lived
33:52in a time
33:53when it would
33:54have been
33:55virtually impossible
33:56at the highest
33:56levels of the
33:57church
33:57to not be
33:59caught up
33:59in politics
34:00and games
34:01of power.
34:03So what does
34:04this sainthood
34:04mean?
34:07It could be
34:07as simple
34:08as this.
34:09that he was
34:10able to fully
34:11express his
34:12faith
34:12and to serve
34:13God only
34:14with his own
34:15death.
34:18In the last
34:19split second
34:20of his life
34:21maybe he could
34:22finally see
34:23beyond all
34:24of his
34:24achievements
34:25and his
34:25possessions
34:26and beyond
34:28all the
34:29endless struggles
34:30for power
34:30between kings
34:31and priests
34:32and look right
34:35into the heart
34:35of the mystery.
34:39the big
34:54question for me
34:55of course
34:57always is
34:58Beckett is always
34:59presented as a man
35:00of faith, right?
35:02Being in such a
35:03secular situation
35:04was he an
35:05opportunist at
35:06times?
35:07Ultimately
35:07was he a
35:08true man
35:08of God?
35:09How does
35:10one balance
35:11these two
35:12separate
35:12possibilities
35:13so to speak?
35:14The secular
35:14and of course
35:16the faith.
35:18Well but it's
35:18not just secular
35:19it's political.
35:22The whole episode
35:23really is about
35:24power
35:25and about that
35:26crush between
35:27the church
35:29and the crown.
35:31I think God
35:32uses in a sense
35:33Beckett's ambition
35:34for God's own
35:35purposes.
35:36At the end
35:37he becomes
35:37ambitious for
35:38the church.
35:38My sense is
35:39that he has
35:39a conversion.
35:40The weight
35:41of the office
35:42of being
35:42archbishop
35:43changes him
35:44and he realizes
35:45who his
35:46allegiance is to.
35:47And if he was
35:47ambitious to
35:48begin with
35:48God kind of
35:49channeled that
35:50into ambition
35:51and desire
35:52to help the
35:53church in the
35:53end.
35:54My sense is
35:55also that
35:55we have an
35:56expression called
35:57the grace
35:57of office
35:58which is that
35:59when you're
36:00ordained or
36:00when you take
36:01on a certain
36:01ministry God
36:02gives you this
36:02certain grace.
36:03And my sense
36:03was that he
36:04got this grace
36:05to understand
36:06that this was
36:07his role.
36:08That he was
36:08no longer
36:09going to be
36:09the king's
36:10pawn so to
36:11speak but
36:11that he had
36:12to really
36:12focus on the
36:13needs of the
36:14church.
36:14To me that
36:16makes sense.
36:16You're ordained
36:17you get a
36:18certain grace
36:18and that enables
36:20you to discern
36:21in a way that
36:22you might not
36:22have discerned
36:23beforehand.
36:24But why in
36:24this episode
36:25do I have
36:26such a
36:27knee-jerk
36:27reaction every
36:29time they
36:29say holy
36:30mother church
36:31I hear like
36:32bank of
36:33America.
36:34I think it's
36:34intentional Mary
36:35because that's
36:36what we have
36:37to face.
36:38I mean it is
36:39intentional in
36:40that the power
36:41structure was
36:42you know
36:43Henry and
36:44the church
36:45was part of
36:46that major
36:47facet of the
36:48power structure
36:49so you made
36:50sense to try
36:50to control it.
36:52I would say
36:53two things.
36:53The church
36:53was more
36:54political back
36:55then right
36:56but it also
36:57still is
36:58political.
36:59It was a
36:59political force
37:00you know
37:00in terms of
37:00temporal power
37:01but the idea
37:02that it's a
37:03political power
37:03now means
37:04it's you know
37:04it's a human
37:05organization
37:06and I think
37:06for me the
37:07deeper question
37:07is can the
37:08Holy Spirit
37:09still work
37:09through an
37:10organization
37:10that is
37:11political
37:11you know
37:12like the
37:12church was
37:13much more
37:14back then
37:14and still
37:15is to a
37:16certain degree.
37:17I guess
37:17what I want
37:17to ask
37:18about.
37:18Why was it
37:19so much
37:19more political
37:20then?
37:21Well I think
37:21the question
37:22would be
37:22why is it
37:23less political
37:24now?
37:25And the idea
37:25is that it
37:26gave up a lot
37:26of the political
37:27power, gave up
37:28a lot of the
37:28land right
37:29in a sense
37:30and it
37:30consciously
37:31became, tried
37:32to become
37:33less political
37:33you know
37:34whereas today
37:34you have
37:35Wait a minute
37:35you say
37:35it gave up
37:36all the land
37:36but look
37:36at all the
37:37cathedrals
37:37and all these
37:38cities
37:38and let's
37:39face it
37:39we're the
37:39great real
37:40estate holder
37:41of one of
37:42the great
37:43real estate
37:43holders
37:44of the
37:44planet.
37:44But in
37:45terms of
37:45like actual
37:46politics
37:47direct
37:48in a sense
37:50influence
37:51into politics
37:52like saying
37:52you should
37:52vote for
37:53this person
37:53is something
37:53that the
37:54church tries
37:55to stay
37:55out of
37:55which it
37:56did not
37:56you know
37:57way back
37:58when.
37:58Yep.
37:59They advocated
38:00for one
38:01king or
38:02one queen
38:02etc.
38:03Well it
38:03also tied
38:03up that
38:04often times
38:04the local
38:05rulers would
38:06have a lot
38:06of say
38:06of who
38:06the bishops
38:07were.
38:07So at
38:08that time
38:08the king
38:09ruled by
38:10divine right
38:10so there
38:11was a
38:11religious
38:11aspect
38:12to the
38:12monarchy
38:13and there
38:14was only
38:14one church
38:15at that
38:15time
38:15this is
38:15prior
38:16to the
38:16reformation
38:17so it
38:17was the
38:18catholic
38:18church
38:18and the
38:19crown
38:19they were
38:21intertwined
38:21in god
38:22knows how
38:22many ways
38:23and to
38:24me the
38:24thrust of
38:25Beckett's
38:25story and
38:26of this
38:26episode is
38:27that it's
38:28understood
38:28that there's
38:29going to be
38:29a certain
38:30amount of
38:30back and
38:30forth between
38:31church and
38:32crown
38:32but what
38:33people rise
38:33up against
38:34beginning
38:34with Beckett
38:35himself
38:35is when
38:36the crown
38:37makes the
38:37church
38:37its play
38:38thing
38:38and behaves
38:40willy-nilly
38:40in the way
38:41that we see
38:41in the story
38:42that's when
38:42Beckett
38:43he said
38:43I'm going
38:44to draw a
38:44line there
38:45yeah it was
38:45very kind
38:46of difficult
38:47to disentangle
38:48you know where
38:49the authority
38:50of the church
38:51was and where
38:51the authority
38:52of the crown
38:52was
38:53but the thing
38:53about that
38:54is that
38:54the divine
38:55right of kings
38:56means that
38:56as a man
38:57you have a
38:57right
38:57it's like
38:58saying you're
38:59the emperor
38:59I am god
39:00because god
39:01speaks through
39:02me
39:02so who's
39:03the pope
39:04then
39:04well
39:05in other
39:06words
39:06I have
39:06all the
39:07power
39:07because I
39:08have divine
39:08right
39:09yeah
39:09so divine
39:11right of kings
39:11means that the
39:12king is in a
39:12sense god's
39:13chosen one
39:14in that
39:14particular land
39:15but don't put
39:16yourself up
39:16there with god
39:17that's where the
39:18line is being
39:19drawn by
39:20Beckett
39:20that's
39:21that's that's
39:22the fight
39:22that's the
39:24fight
39:24but why not
39:25if you have
39:26that power
39:26as king
39:28why not
39:29you know
39:30who are you
39:30to tell me
39:31and this
39:32extraordinary
39:32moment
39:33where Beckett
39:33is trying
39:34the man
39:34in ecclesiastical
39:36courts
39:37who's a priest
39:38who killed
39:38the father
39:39of the woman
39:40that he rapes
39:40yes
39:41and he's gonna
39:42and you're telling
39:42me that that's
39:43gonna be ecclesiastical
39:44and we can't
39:45take care of that
39:45in the king's court
39:47what I
39:48I mean I could
39:48go further with it
39:49in that
39:49what I say
39:50and what I believe
39:51and what I think
39:52is a divine right
39:53in other words
39:53god is guiding
39:55me through this
39:55granted I'm
39:57benefiting from it
39:58but god is guiding
39:59me
40:00who are you to tell
40:00me
40:01even the
40:02unlettered peasant
40:03can sense
40:04the wrongness
40:04of that
40:05that's right
40:05and that's why
40:06there was such
40:06a popular
40:07support for Beckett
40:09after he died
40:09that's right
40:10that's right
40:10yeah sure
40:11you're the king
40:11you've got divine
40:12right but
40:13make no mistake
40:14nobody's above
40:15the law
40:15or nobody's on
40:16the level with god
40:17otherwise
40:17otherwise it literally
40:18is you know
40:19feudalism
40:20and slavery
40:21basically
40:22well it's always there
40:23there's always
40:23tension between
40:24religion
40:25and the dominant
40:26powers in society
40:27and sometimes
40:28they're fighting
40:29and sometimes
40:29they're colluding
40:31and this is
40:32this is the way
40:33of the world
40:33well god told me to
40:35god told me to
40:36because he speaks
40:36through me
40:37and I'm looking out
40:38for you
40:38yeah
40:39to go to war
40:40to do this
40:40to defend me
40:42you defend yourselves
40:43you defend our culture
40:44we defend who we are
40:44because god has given me
40:46this grace
40:46and this power
40:47as well as the
40:48the kind of conflict
40:49between church and state
40:50the jesuits who were killed
40:52in 1989 in el salvador
40:54were standing on the side
40:55of the poor
40:55and the government
40:56didn't like that
40:56right
40:57and so it's always
40:58I think in the story
41:00of beckett
41:00you see kind of
41:01an early sign
41:02of the church
41:02asserting its own
41:03authority
41:03you know
41:04over the state
41:05right
41:05which is
41:06which is something
41:06that plays out
41:07for the next couple
41:08of centuries
41:08yes yes
41:09my question ultimately
41:10but I think I know
41:11the answer is
41:12because he stayed
41:12in that cathedral
41:13he hugged
41:14that pillar
41:15so that he could be
41:16killed in the church
41:17to make that point
41:18one can argue
41:19well this is his own
41:20pride that develops
41:21right
41:22but to the point
41:23where he lets himself
41:24be killed by these guys
41:25in the cathedral
41:26I don't think so
41:26I think it's interesting
41:27between pride
41:28and knowing he's
41:30going to be killed
41:30and he stays there
41:32the fact that
41:34after he died
41:34this cult of his blood
41:36kind of sprang up
41:38among the people
41:39and such that
41:40the beginning of
41:41Canterbury Tales
41:42is about making
41:44a holy pilgrimage
41:45to Canterbury
41:46there were miracles
41:47taking place
41:48that people were healed
41:49from the blood
41:50and that it was
41:51circulating
41:52what amazes me
41:53is that
41:54for 800 years
41:55people have been
41:55going on pilgrimage
41:56to that place
41:57hoping to be changed
41:59somehow themselves
42:00yes
42:00long before I converted
42:02my son
42:03dragged me to church
42:05to see if God's there
42:06which I would have
42:07never gone
42:08if he hadn't dragged me
42:09but I didn't believe
42:11in anything
42:12I had no religious background
42:14my parents were atheist
42:15I never dabbled in it
42:17I didn't have a moment
42:18with it
42:19but the faith
42:20of the people
42:21sure
42:22I found very moving
42:24so whether
42:25you're Catholic
42:26or not
42:26or whether you believe
42:28that Beckett
42:29was holy or not
42:30as Paul said
42:32that for 800 years
42:33people have been
42:34going to this place
42:35and you think
42:36what I think
42:38of all the hope
42:39and longing
42:40and fear
42:41that people bring
42:43to those places
42:45and is that not holy
42:47and is that not holy
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