- 2 months ago
On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Neil Dhingra, branch manager at All Western Mortgage and a top mortgage influencer, about growing a personal brand on social media amid all the noise.
Related to this episode:
Neel Dhringa | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@NeelDhingra
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
More info about HousingWire
https://lnk.bio/housingwire
To learn more about Trust & Will, click here.
https://trustandwill.com/
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate.
Related to this episode:
Neel Dhringa | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/@NeelDhingra
HousingWire | YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDD_3y3LvU60vac7eki-6Q
More info about HousingWire
https://lnk.bio/housingwire
To learn more about Trust & Will, click here.
https://trustandwill.com/
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome, everyone. My guest today is Neil Dingra. He is a branch manager at All Western Mortgage
00:11and a top mortgage influencer who teaches mortgage and real estate professionals how
00:15to grow their personal brand to grow their business. Before we dive in, I want to say
00:20thank you to our sponsors, Trust and Will, for making this episode possible. Neil, welcome back
00:25to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. Really glad we got to do this finally. Oh, me too. I know
00:31we've been crossing paths at different conferences, and I'm just so thankful that you want to be on.
00:37I know you're in high demand. I think you said you just got back to speaking to like 2,000 agents in
00:42was it Florida? Yeah, I was in the Real Broker event in Orlando, Florida. Spoke to almost just
00:49over 2,000 agents that I think that were there. And before that, we were speaking to, that's where
00:55you and I were in the same place. It was 1,000 loan officers in Nashville. And before that, it was
00:59Texas. And before that, it was Denver. So I've just been all over the place. I was just joking
01:04with you before. I just started speaking in Canada as well to different mortgage and real estate
01:10professionals. So I guess I could say international now, which is cool. Yeah. Okay. No, worldwide even.
01:15Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's next. Yes. The next thing is off planet. You're going to be like,
01:20you know, extraterrestrial, I think. Well, I really appreciate it. The reason everyone wants
01:26you to come speak is that you've really, I feel like honed your expertise in social media. I mean,
01:32we talked about this several years ago, and I feel like it's gotten even more since then. So let's
01:37talk about when you think about where social media is now and how people market themselves and brand
01:43themselves on social media. What has changed in the last six months? So in the last six months on
01:48social, you know, it's gone from there's more opportunity, but it's becoming harder to stand out. So
01:56what's happened is a bit of apathy, like a bit of just, I would call, I don't even know the right word
02:01to say, but I guess apathy is fine. But I think it's like, man, if you ask somebody, hey, how's it
02:06going? What's going on? Like, how's business? A lot of times people are just like flat. They're just
02:11like, I'm like, is that a response? Did you say a word there? I'm not sure what you just said to me,
02:16but they're just a bit numb and it's burnout. It's also just overload of information. And then
02:23for consumers, I think it's just been a crazy, crazy news cycle since COVID and thereafter.
02:30And I don't think the human brain has been like, was conditioned to have this much inputs coming at
02:35them and this much crazy stuff happening in the country and in the world and in politics and in
02:40business and in the economy, there's just never been this level of volatility. Even people that
02:46follow the markets, like interest rates and stock market, this is crazy volatility. Sometimes we'll
02:50get years worth of movement within a week, which is wild. So anyways, all I have to say is people are
02:59just a bit numb and disconnected. So it makes it, there's more of them on social. So there's never
03:05been this much opportunity, but at the same time, there's never been so much noise. And so what's
03:11changed is you really have to get better at cutting through the noise. A year or two ago, I would say,
03:15just put yourself out there, make content and you'll see results. Now we see people can do it and not get
03:22anything versus somebody else does it and they get a lot of results. So the thing I'm teaching people
03:27is like, how do you get into that latter category of like, okay, I'm not just spinning my wheels. I'm not
03:30just wasting my time. I'm actually getting influence. I'm getting people to watch my videos. And then I'm
03:35also getting people to take the next step with me. How has that changed too, with like AI, even in the
03:40last year or even the last couple of months, I know we we've just adopted an internal chat GPT for our,
03:46or internal GPT for our company. We're doing all sorts of things. Things are changing rapidly. How do you,
03:52you know, as, as a, um, creator online, how do you think about AI? And, and do you think that that
03:59just discourages people from even trying? Yeah, it's a good question. I think there are people
04:03who will, uh, use AI to enhance their ability to communicate. So there's people like you just
04:09talked about an internal use. We do the same thing with our companies and it can help process things.
04:14And I think that's one of the best use cases for AI, but where people are now using it on the create,
04:19on the creative side is they're using it to create their content. You know, they're writing all their
04:23content with it and they're, um, and you can have it enhance it, but I would caution people from just
04:28outsourcing their entire brand to AI. Like it is called AI slop. Now, uh, people call it. There's
04:34a term for this content and it's just mass produced. Um, like you, you and I could make it a video.
04:41We could give a prompt to any one of the new video AI creators and we could be doing anything
04:45and it would look 100% real. So we could say, Hey, let's put me and Sarah jumping out of a plane,
04:51going here, going there, doing this. And, uh, and we'll parachute out and it'll be a housing wire.
04:56Um, thing. And then we'll, we'll give them some knowledge on the way down. Like, and it would
05:01look 1000% real and maybe we could get some views, but in a world now where anybody and everybody can
05:08create AI content is become almost worthless. It's becoming noise. So it's shifting the pendulum
05:15to shift the other way where people are now wanting to identify what content is AI created. And the
05:21platforms are saying, Hey, you have to identify, Hey, was I, was I using AI in this video or is it
05:25really me? And so that's going to start to become more prominent. And then I even heard
05:29talk yesterday on a platform where somebody was saying, Hey, I, I want my content. I want
05:35my feed to be all real. I don't want to AI my feet up. Could you please give me an option
05:39for a real social media feed? So I think people's interests are going the other way.
05:45I think that's true. I mean, again, like, um, I know a couple months ago I was reading about
05:49like, you can create a podcast. Like you said, I mean, we could just give it, we could just
05:53give it a script. We don't even have to be here. Right. It can have us jumping out of
05:56the plane and talking. And, but I was like, for me personally, I have zero interest in
06:00listening to that. I want to listen to a real person, talk to a real person conversation,
06:04especially in, in this sort of, you know, social or podcasting or whatever. It's like,
06:09I think the reason we're all drawn to it is the connection. It's not like you, you can get
06:13information a lot of places.
06:15No, a hundred percent. So it's going to be your storytelling, your connection. Is this real?
06:20Can I connect with that person? And it doesn't mean that you can't use AI to help with your
06:25content, but I think it shouldn't be the entire thing. And then the best use case would be if you
06:30use it to enhance distribution, you know, take one thing that you did, turn it into seven more pieces
06:35of content. Like that's where we're seeing the biggest lift from a personal brand standpoint.
06:40So that was my next question because it's like, okay, you know, a lot of people might use AI to
06:44schedule their social or, you know, uh, give them a calendar of like, here's what you should be
06:49talking about when, where do you think the, what's the line for you? Like, yes, use it here,
06:53but don't use it here. When you say don't use it for the content, what does that mean?
06:57So what you can do is you could type like a prompt and just have it do the entire thing.
07:03And, um, you know, so I saw this creator the other day and he said he's making, he's had a lot of reach
07:10on his account, making local real estate content. And he has AI do the entire thing. So it scripts the
07:15video. He has an avatar through a company called Hey Jen, which you can get to pretty much mimic you
07:21and the avatar replays the video, uh, you know, delivers a script on his behalf. And then there's
07:27just automated AI B roll essentially, which is just video footage of different things going on in that
07:33market. And it just does the whole piece for him. And these get views and he's able to build his,
07:38his, his, uh, account based on this, but he's not in it. Okay. So what's happening there is people
07:44value the information, but they don't necessarily value the person. And so you can get views using
07:52AI content and I, and you could mix this in, but I think you should also put in your personal brand
07:59and your personal stories and make sure that people know this is really you like, yes, you could touch
08:03my face. I'm a real person. You know, this is really me right here on this podcast with you. And
08:07I think there's going to be a need for that, or there's going to be a lot of demand for actual
08:10people and human connection. It's just like when people said zoom would kill all events. Uh,
08:16there's never a need to travel ever again because it's on zoom. Why, why in God's name,
08:20would you get on a plane and go across the country? Well, we've just brought up a couple of user cases
08:25where people did get on the plane and go, why? Because they're tired of just the online thing.
08:29They wanted to get in person. So I just think, uh, you know, AI killing content creators is,
08:34is, is just that that has been grossly exaggerated.
08:37So one of the things that's really unique about you is that you, uh, speak to both agents,
08:42real estate agents and, and originators, right? So you, you're on mortgage and real estate.
08:46You talk to a lot of consumers. Where do you see, like, do you feel like, oh, mortgage is way,
08:51you know, mortgage content creators are way ahead of, of real estate, or here's what real estate
08:55could teach mortgage. Or do you feel like it's much more individual than that?
08:59Yeah, it's a good question. So I think mortgage people primarily teach,
09:03you know, finance topics and talking and teaching just kind of the, the, the, maybe the boring stuff
09:10that's kind of relevant, but it's, it's necessary. It's necessary. We're boring where we could kind
09:15of make it exciting is there is something called infotainment where people do want to learn and it
09:20is entertaining to them. For me, I love listening to a podcast. I love learning, um, in my spare time.
09:25That's what I do. And so I think there's a lot of demand for that. You just have to package it in the
09:29right way. Now real estate side, they do the same thing with information on the markets and things
09:33like that, but they also get into the more entertaining aspect, which is the actual
09:37properties. You know, people don't necessarily get excited about the process of buying, but they
09:43definitely get excited about the properties themselves and viewing property is its own form
09:50of entertainment. More homes are, uh, browsed on Instagram than on Zillow. You know, there's a stat on
09:57this, like more people scroll and look at real estate on social media than they do on Zillow
10:01now, which is insane because Zillow is the, you know, the leader in terms of, uh, window
10:06shopping or actual shopping for homes. So yes, like that's the difference. Now I have seen
10:12some mortgage professionals even get into highlighting the property because that's what mortgage financing
10:16gets you. It's just the, you know, the means to an end. So you can do that, but I do see
10:21kind of the difference being real estate. People want to highlight more of the thing. Uh, they
10:26sometimes end up being more, I guess, entertaining or trying to show off more things, be more
10:31creative with how they highlight properties and what they do on site versus a lot of mortgage
10:36content that seems to be in the office now. Uh, but we, I think we could all learn from
10:40each other where mortgage people could get more, do more engaging things. And then some
10:44of the real estate people, they're missing some of the, the, the part that would connect
10:49the most clients to them and help the most people, which is people need to know that
10:53you're competent. So like I said before, you can get views doing anything, but when
11:00somebody is going to hire you and trust you, you need to prove competence. You need to show
11:05people that you're getting results. And a lot of real estate agents skip that part. So
11:08I've been helping them and teaching them on like, okay, what are the things we could be
11:11doing to really highlight that? Yeah, I am that expert. I'm not just opening doors. Like
11:16I'm structuring deals and negotiating and helping you as an advisor, you know, like this is a
11:22huge investment and there's a lot of numbers that go into, there's a lot of legal stuff
11:25that goes into it and I can help you with that. Well, it's like people aren't valuing
11:29themselves. They're devaluing the service that they offer. You know, it's like real estate
11:32agent just showing the property because it gets more views or being entertaining or doing
11:36some jokes and stuff on social. That's fine. And I'm not saying don't do that, but I'm
11:40saying like, there's more to that, to what you offer than that. And they would say no for
11:46the audience. They think that's boring, but that's important to people. Like they do need
11:51to hear that from you. And I think that's the part where you, you know, margin compression
11:55is a big talk in mortgage. People talk about, you know, the amount loan officers make per
11:59loan is continuing to decline. I believe the same is true on the real estate side. We
12:03haven't yet seen it fully play out, but it's starting to where the amount of commission
12:07is under pressure because it's public, right? Customers are for the first time in the history
12:13of real estate are negotiating buyer side commissions and they're more willing to negotiate seller
12:18side and listing commission. So all that to say is like, you do need to show your value
12:22and you do need to build your brand if you want to protect those margins.
12:26Well, and I think the whole thing is like, what is the purpose? Um, what's the strategy
12:30behind this? Is it just creating content? Nobody gets paid. Well, there are some people
12:34who get paid just to create content, but like, it's probably not mortgage content, right?
12:39Like you're not, you're not building, you know, millions from the platform. Um, if you go
12:43to YouTube, for example, and you make long form, they will pay you AdSense, but that's just
12:47dicing on the cake. You know, what's the value of an additional transaction?
12:51It's going to far exceed the value of whatever YouTube's paying you, unless you have
12:54millions of views and, and there's a few creators that do. So I'm not knocking that
12:58and there's brand deals, you know, companies will pay you to highlight certain things in your content.
13:02So there's like, I guess I would call that like side hustle money, but the main, as far as growing your,
13:07you know, the main thing for most people watching or listening is going to be like,
13:10I need to use this to reach more people so I can get more business and, um, you don't have to do
13:16it in a promotional way. You know, you can do it in a way where you're helping people,
13:19but you're just attracting more clients. And then the cool thing is, is you'll attract
13:25better quality clients that respect you. And so that was the part that really got me excited about
13:29this is like, Hey, think about your best clients that you've ever worked with. And then also think
13:34about the opposite. Like what are the people that just treated you like a vendor that didn't see the
13:39value in working with you that maybe were disrespectful, all that kind of stuff. Like,
13:43which would you rather work with? Well, obviously, you know, the first category. And if you have
13:48content and people connecting with you that way, it allows that to happen passively. People are
13:53developing that relationship with you. And then when you start working with them, they already respect
13:56you. Like I'm shocked when someone says, Hey, do you have time to chat with us? You know, I'm like,
14:01wow, they really respect my time now. You know, that's cool.
14:04That is cool. Yeah. Circling back to AI a little bit here. Um, one of the things about it is like
14:09how you're, how people are going to find you, how you're going to be presented to them. When you think
14:14about like the algorithms have changed and, and just the AI, you know, people are now asking chat
14:21GPT or like for the information, not necessarily searching, like that's changed pretty radically in
14:25the last say five months. I know we as a publisher, right, we've seen that we've adapted. So how do you
14:31make sure that it's even going to find you that people are even going to be able to find you?
14:35Well, it's kind of interesting, you know, AI is going to base its findings based on what's on the
14:40internet. So it's not going to come up with its own recommendation. It's going to search and then
14:46give you the recommendation. And so part of how it does that is it looks at publicly available data
14:52on the internet. And so first things first, like go step backwards, just Google yourself and see what
14:57comes up. You know, are you on like, obviously if you're on social and you have their, you're in a
15:02public account and you have SEO, SEO turned on for your Instagram account, Facebook, some of those
15:07things will come up. If you're on other platforms that'll come up, even things like is the list, if
15:11you're a real estate agent, uh, is the, um, listing information accurate on, on the MLS and on all the
15:18feeds. So when it appears on Zillow is your name in all that, all that stuff showing up properly.
15:23And so you have to do an audit and see what's there. And then that's the data that's going to
15:28be published. And so, um, you know, a lot of people that do a lot of media things and PR,
15:33they're building like this portfolio or this, you know, amount of evidence on the internet.
15:38And so you're much more likely to get picked up when somebody does search in GPT, because it is
15:42referencing, it'll tell you like the links that it referenced right inside of chat.
15:46What's been your favorite thing in the last year that you've done, uh, from a social standpoint?
15:50And so it's kind of like the, the thing that I've gotten really excited about is the fact that some
15:58of the pendulum has gone the other way. So yeah, when AI first came out and there was a lot of content
16:03being created by, I was just as excited as everybody else. So it's all in AI avatar videos and doing
16:08crazy things. And we even at our event, we do an annual event. We even made an entire trailer for
16:12the event using AI actually positioned myself in the movie back to the future. And like we went into
16:19Deloitte and this is just stuff that you would never be able to do. And we can do it now with
16:23AI. So that was really cool to see. But then I took a step back and kind of what gets me excited now
16:27is, you know, simple things like storytelling on social media, like that's, what's connecting
16:34more conversations and getting more people to respect you and reach out to you. And so I love all
16:40the new tech and stuff, but there, you know, I'm just telling people don't abandon the basic
16:44premise of social media, which it was to connect with people.
16:47What do you think when, when people ask questions at your events, when you're, when you've given
16:51what, what's the first, what's the overwhelming question that you get from them?
16:55Well, people just want the shortcut, the silver bullet, like here, do this thing and it will work
17:02and do that. And there are plays that work for sure. You can definitely reduce the curve of like,
17:09you know, this valley of pain that every creator has to go through before they get,
17:12you know, results. So that can be reduced and you should learn how to do that from people that
17:16have done it before. That's important. But, um, the, the answer, the real answer long-term is
17:22maybe an answer that people don't want to hear, which is like, this just needs to be a, become a part
17:26of your, your communication strategy and your business. And if you are always going to be
17:32transactional, you'll make money. But if you're not ever building anything long-term, you're,
17:37you're just on this sales treadmill. And so I think, um, you know, a lot of people get,
17:42that's why they get burnt out. It's like, you've been doing something for decades and then somebody
17:47will say, well, how's your pipeline this month? Where are you at? Sales number. And maybe it's
17:50not a good month and maybe it's a slow time of year or whatever. And then they think your value
17:54is low, you know? And it's like, well, wait a second, I've been doing this all this time. I have
17:57all this knowledge. Well, if it's not, uh, something that's packaged on the internet,
18:02nobody knows it except you and your small circle of people. So I think like, that's the question
18:08people need to ask themselves. What are they doing that the future you would thank you for?
18:13You know, like I have these videos where I was terrible at content and all these different things.
18:19And I show people how bad I was just to show people, Hey dude, I suck too. Like I'm not,
18:24I'm not, I didn't just start off doing this stuff. Great. Like I'm still on my way. I'm still learning
18:29every day. But the reason I show that is because when I look back at that guy, I'm like, Hey, I just
18:34want to thank the meal from five years ago for just putting them, putting in the reps and doing the
18:38work, you know, that very few people are doing. And so I would just encourage people to, yeah,
18:42make sure you're doing the transactional stuff, make sure you're running your business properly.
18:45But at the same time, uh, play a different game that very few people are playing, which is
18:50brand personal brand. Like brand is what people think about you when you're, when your name comes up
18:56and when your name or your image does 90% of the selling for you, you have an unfair advantage
19:03in business. Like that is huge. You know, there's a brand associated with housing wire, you know,
19:09uh, and it takes years to do, but you guys are doing it right. It's not like when he first,
19:14when Clayton first acquired the business, it was like, Oh yeah, everyone knows us. No,
19:17you guys have been doing it year after year, month after month, you know, for years. And then now it
19:21sticks with people. I'm like, Oh yeah, I have certain feeling associated with that brand. When I see it,
19:25when I hear it, when I see the logo, I, the same thing is true for your face and your name on the
19:30internet. And it just takes time to get there. And I think that's the answer people don't want to
19:34hear, which is like, Hey, let's just plan on doing this for the next several years. And you will get
19:39a benefit that very few people are getting in the industry. I feel like it's, uh, just like your
19:43health, right? Like working out, like everybody is like, you know, scouring different places.
19:48It's like, we all know what you really need to do. Right. We all know what, what we need to do.
19:52Uh, it's just the showing up every day at the gym. It's, it's the getting, it's the consistency.
19:56It's doing it when it's not fun. That's, what's going to get you the results. Not just, you know,
20:01Oh, I'm going to find now I'm going to find something that unlocks all this. It's like,
20:05Oh, it's all, it's already been there. Well, you see it right in health and fitness. Like
20:09I saw this meme and it's like two lines. And one line is like, eat well and exercise. And there's
20:16like three people in the line. And then the other line is GLP ones. And the line is like down the street,
20:20you know, it's like, yes, this is true. People want the quick fix. And, um, and I'm not knocking
20:26anybody who does it, you know, like some people really need it. But the other thing is, is like
20:30people are looking for that. And maybe there's a downside to that. You know, I don't know what
20:34we'll find out, but I just think, yeah, the truth is we, the truth is not always as palatable.
20:41It's like, yes, you need to just commit to living healthier. So with brand, it's like,
20:46you just need to commit to a few times a week, putting your thoughts and expertise on the
20:51internet. And it doesn't have to be this huge thing. It doesn't have to change your whole
20:55business. You have to stop everything else you're doing. And a lot of people say, I don't
20:59have time. That's probably the number one thing they ask is like, I just don't have the time.
21:03I'm doing all this stuff. How am I supposed to do this? You're giving me another thing to
21:06put on my full plate. And so I know we can't make the plate bigger. We can't create more hours
21:10in a day. So I would just encourage people to look at what you're doing on a daily and weekly
21:15basis. And are there two or three hours that you could delegate to somebody else or pull out and,
21:20and, and free up. And it could be personal tasks or business tasks, whatever. I mean,
21:25the reason I say personal is we have one lady in our group, and this is going to sound funny,
21:29but she said she did this audit for a business and this, and she's kind of a solopreneur,
21:34small business. And she's like, you know what? I can't, I have one assistant and we can't really
21:37outsource any of my work. I'm already doing most of my highest and best use during work hours.
21:41And then I'm like, well, also look at personal stuff. And she found out she spends four hours
21:45a week doing laundry. I'm like, okay, is it, is there a possibility? Like she literally got
21:52a task person to help do like, and this sounds so dumb, but she freed up four hours a week to do
21:58that. And then she allocates two of those to now making her content ideas and shooting those ideas.
22:03And it's like, okay, so you can find time if it's important to you, you know? So I just think
22:08when somebody says, I don't have time, it's like, yes, you'll make time for what's important.
22:12You know what I mean?
22:12I love that. And I think that in this, you are a person who walks the walk, right? You're not
22:17just out there doing that. You also, you have your own business.
22:20Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I have to make time for multiple things. And you know what else is crazy
22:25is I find that the busiest people are the ones who can do the, you know, they can even add more
22:30stuff and figure out because they know how to structure their time better. And you just get used to
22:34handle more balls in the air. And you know, the other part that people need to realize
22:39is like, it's not going to be perfect. Like you imagine a bunch of balls in the air and
22:43you're trying to juggle them and you got a basket. I know I'm going to drop some, like
22:47they're just going to end up on the floor and I'm going to lose it. But I know at the
22:50end of the day, my basket has more because I'm doing more things. And so I just think people
22:53need to get around this question or get their head wrapped around this question of volume,
22:57you know, in the new world, like people need to see you and hear from you way more than
23:02they used to because it's too noisy. And what are you doing to do that? It used to
23:06be just a few things would work, but it's now it's becoming harder. And so this is what
23:11it's almost like becoming a requirement. And you know, you just kind of have to figure
23:14it out.
23:15I love it. Neil, thank you so much for taking your very valuable time to be with us today
23:19and walk us through this. Love it and hope to talk to you again soon.
23:23Yeah. Thanks for having me. And then thanks for all the work you guys do, because I know
23:26I just love that you guys put on events. You're putting out this podcast. I see you at
23:31all the different things, just trying to spread good information. And I think this
23:35is what the industry needs is more people communicating better online.
23:38I so appreciate that. I will talk again soon. Thank you again.
23:42Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.
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