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https://www.pupia.tv - Roma - Geopolitical situation in the Middle East - Hearing Yossi Beilin e Samieh Al Abed
Alle ore 14, la Commissione Affari esteri ha svolto l’audizione di Yossi Beilin e Samieh Al Abed sulla situazione geopolitica in Medio Oriente. (19.11.25)
#pupia
Alle ore 14, la Commissione Affari esteri ha svolto l’audizione di Yossi Beilin e Samieh Al Abed sulla situazione geopolitica in Medio Oriente. (19.11.25)
#pupia
Categoria
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NovitàTrascrizione
00:00:00I would like to point out that today's proceedings will also be broadcast on the Chamber of Deputies' web TV channel.
00:00:14Let me also remind you that remote participation is permitted for fellow MPs.
00:00:20There are several MPs that are linked up with us.
00:00:23The agenda includes the informal hearing of Yossi Beilin and Samir Al-Abed on the geopolitical situation in the Middle East.
00:00:32I would like to welcome and thank Mr. Beilin, Mrs. Deilin, and Mr. Al-Abed.
00:00:38Welcome and thank you so very much.
00:00:40It is truly an honor to have you here today in this very important hearing.
00:00:44The delegation is accompanied by Mr. Marco Pierini.
00:00:47Welcome.
00:00:48I would also like to thank MP Fasino for promoting today's hearing, which is of particular importance for the Commission's committee's work.
00:00:58Let me remind you that today's meeting is indeed pivotal, and this will be focused on the viability or feasibility of solution for coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians within a framework of the state's recognition.
00:01:16Let me remind you that Yossi Beilin served in many capacities.
00:01:21In particular, he served as deputy foreign minister and minister of justice in the Israeli government,
00:01:26and he was also a leading negotiator in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process that led to the signing of the Oslo Cords in 1993.
00:01:37In 1995, under Prime Minister Iskand Rabin's administration, and this year will celebrate 30 years since his assassination,
00:01:47he formulated the Beilin-Album-Arzen agreement as a possible basis for an agreement between Israel and the Palestinian state.
00:01:56After retiring from political life in May 2015, in an editorial published in the New York Times and then 10 years after with an essay,
00:02:07he proposed the creation of an Israeli-Palestinian confederation, the Holy Land Confederation,
00:02:15with the idea of reciprocity, based on which a certain number of citizens from Palestine and Israel will be allowed to live in the other states,
00:02:25provided they will abide by the laws of the hosting state.
00:02:29This will eliminate an obstacle to the attainment of a peace process.
00:02:34This is to say the forced eviction or evacuation of people.
00:02:38Under this idea, Jerusalem will become an open city, allowing the free movement of people, goods, and capital.
00:02:46I now introduce Mr. Samuel al-Abbet, amongst other things.
00:02:50He served as Minister of Public Works and Housing in the Palestinian National Authority's Government of National Unity in 2007,
00:02:58and he also served as a member of the Palestinian negotiating team at the Camp David Summit in July 2000.
00:03:05Mr. Al-Abbet has always stressed the importance of Israel and the world, recognizing a sovereign and independent state of Palestine,
00:03:12based on the resolutions of the United States Security Council within the 1967 borders.
00:03:19We are all aware of the importance of having here an Israeli citizen and a Palestinian national both here today.
00:03:30And this is indeed of the essence.
00:03:33This is pivotal, and they will help us flesh out the feasibility of a peace solution based on mutual recognition
00:03:45and a political agreement based on coexistence.
00:03:48I now ask Mr. Yossi Belin to take the floor, and now after him, I'll ask Mr. Samuel al-Abbet to take the floor.
00:03:56So, Mr. Yossi Belin, first, you have the floor.
00:03:58Thank you.
00:04:00Thank you very much, Mr. Chairwoman.
00:04:06I really appreciate your readiness to...
00:04:12Thank you.
00:04:19I really appreciate the fact that you invited us to meet with this very important body.
00:04:28And what you have here is a meeting of good friends.
00:04:35Usually, we are used to the Israeli against the Palestinians, and each of us is trying to convince that his or her side is right and the other one is wrong.
00:04:48And we feel that we passed this stage in our life.
00:04:58What we believe is in peace, but it is not just a general idea that it is nice to have peace and love.
00:05:08We are the graduates of the solutions.
00:05:10We are the graduates of the solutions.
00:05:15Thank you very much.
00:05:17Thank you.
00:05:18Thank you.
00:05:19Thank you.
00:05:20Thank you.
00:05:21Thank you.
00:05:23Thank you.
00:05:24Thank you.
00:05:25Thank you.
00:05:26Thank you.
00:05:27Thank you.
00:05:28Thank you.
00:05:29Thank you.
00:05:30Thank you.
00:05:31between the Israeli interests and the Palestinian interests
00:05:34and we found ourselves in a very strange situation
00:05:38you know that
00:05:39after years of negotiations
00:05:42we used to ask each other
00:05:46is it good for us
00:05:48and the other side sometimes would say
00:05:52you know for you it is not so good
00:05:55because if you get what you ask for
00:05:58there will be A, B and C
00:06:00and then you say you know what, you are right
00:06:04this is the kind of negotiations and relations
00:06:09that we had through the years
00:06:12and of course the peacemakers as you know
00:06:15are getting also bad criticism in their homes
00:06:21it's not easy, it's not simple
00:06:24more difficult in Palestine than in Israel
00:06:28but on both sides you get it
00:06:32there are always people who believe that you are the traitors
00:06:37because you are ready to make a compromise
00:06:41and there is no peace without compromises
00:06:43now the point is the following
00:06:48if you ask
00:06:49now I speak for myself
00:06:52but I'm sure that also for Samir
00:06:54if you ask us
00:06:57seriously
00:06:58is it possible
00:07:00with all this hatred
00:07:02with October the 7th
00:07:04and then the retaliation
00:07:05and the tens of thousands
00:07:08of Palestinians who were killed by Israel
00:07:10is it possible to make peace
00:07:13my answer is very clear
00:07:17I have no doubt in it
00:07:19because this is the real interest of both sides
00:07:22we are not doing favors to each other
00:07:25if we don't make peace
00:07:28Israel will not remain democratic and liberal
00:07:32and Jewish
00:07:33no chance
00:07:35because if we don't make peace
00:07:37and there is a majority of Palestinians
00:07:41between the river and the sea as they say
00:07:43a minority of Jews will rule
00:07:47a majority of Palestinians
00:07:49for how long?
00:07:51for how long?
00:07:53it is impossible
00:07:54and for the Palestinians
00:07:58if they don't get their state
00:08:00their dream for self-determination
00:08:03and their deep need for self-determination
00:08:05after years in which they were under other regimes
00:08:10the Turkish, the British, the Israelis
00:08:13they are losing hope
00:08:18they will lose the most important thing
00:08:21that they want to have
00:08:22and since this is an interest of both sides
00:08:27this is realistic
00:08:31and the other thing is that
00:08:33if we speak about the idea
00:08:36that was mentioned here generously
00:08:38by the chairwoman
00:08:39the idea of a confederation
00:08:44between Israel and Palestine
00:08:47which allows both of them to remain
00:08:51or to be independent
00:08:53and sovereign
00:08:54following the model of the European Union
00:08:59and which is also open for more countries in the future
00:09:05like Jordan for example
00:09:07this idea
00:09:11doesn't have to wait necessarily
00:09:14to the moment in which
00:09:17the two peoples will fall in love
00:09:19we have to admit
00:09:22the level of hatred today
00:09:24is unbelievable
00:09:25you ask Jews about Palestinians
00:09:28you ask Palestinians about Jews
00:09:30they don't want to see them anymore
00:09:32that's very clear
00:09:34but the idea that we have to educate another generation
00:09:40that the other side doesn't have homes
00:09:44is wrong
00:09:45because then we will wait and wait and wait
00:09:49and then when we remember what happened in Europe
00:09:54after the Second World War
00:09:56or even before the end of the war
00:09:58we understand that in the worst moments in history
00:10:02enemies were able to make peace
00:10:06because they knew
00:10:08what was the price for not having peace
00:10:11they were the victims
00:10:13and our story
00:10:15is a story of a competition
00:10:18between two victims
00:10:19who were more victimized than the other
00:10:24we excel
00:10:26in this story of victimization
00:10:30and we want to end it
00:10:35so I will be more than glad to refer to the issue
00:10:40the specific issue of the confederation
00:10:43but I want you to listen to Dr. Samir El-Abed
00:10:49who is a real partner
00:10:53and you know partners know not only how to agree
00:10:57but also how to disagree sometimes
00:11:00but I understand that the other side
00:11:05is doing it
00:11:06because of its commitment
00:11:08to its values
00:11:10to the ideas
00:11:12and to its people
00:11:13and we are trying to convince
00:11:17and most of the time we agree
00:11:19we succeed to convince each other
00:11:23but even if we fail in doing it
00:11:26we don't think for a moment
00:11:28that the other side is doing it
00:11:31because of whatever non-relevant interests
00:11:35in the cause
00:11:37so thank you very much
00:11:39thank you very much
00:11:44and I will now give the floor to Samir El-Abed
00:11:47for his speech
00:11:50thank you very much
00:11:54for having us
00:11:55here in this chamber
00:11:56Mr. Chairman
00:11:57and
00:11:59it always will make it difficult
00:12:02for me to speak after UC
00:12:03because he always said the things
00:12:06that I wanted to say
00:12:07but
00:12:09I agree with him of course
00:12:13we don't disagree
00:12:18in many issues
00:12:19except one thing
00:12:20when I was in Geneva
00:12:22dealing with each other
00:12:23and we came with an agreement
00:12:26in Geneva
00:12:27right
00:12:27and the only thing
00:12:29bad happened to me
00:12:30that I have a stint in my heart
00:12:32because of the negotiation
00:12:33so they were so difficult
00:12:34you know
00:12:35to negotiate with the Israelis
00:12:37in reaching an agreement
00:12:39but we manage both
00:12:42to keep the same track
00:12:44that
00:12:45there is no other solution
00:12:47except to have
00:12:48a peace agreement
00:12:49between the Palestinians
00:12:50and the Israelis
00:12:51no other way
00:12:53people sometimes think about
00:12:55one state
00:12:56or two states
00:12:57or
00:12:57the new idea
00:12:59of UC about the federation
00:13:00confederation
00:13:01and all that
00:13:02but
00:13:02if you look at them all
00:13:04they wanted to have
00:13:06an agreement
00:13:08whether it's one
00:13:09two
00:13:09or federation
00:13:10so the whole idea
00:13:12is all of us
00:13:13looking forward
00:13:14in order to reach
00:13:15an agreement
00:13:16why is it that
00:13:18difficult
00:13:18so far
00:13:19that we did not
00:13:21reach an agreement
00:13:22in which we know
00:13:24that we are there
00:13:26to stay
00:13:26and they are there
00:13:27to stay
00:13:28in no other way
00:13:29ethnic cleansing
00:13:31will not help
00:13:32will not support
00:13:33will not
00:13:33happen
00:13:34transfer people
00:13:37from one place
00:13:38to the other
00:13:38will not happen
00:13:39you know
00:13:40like I said
00:13:41we are there
00:13:41so
00:13:43the problem
00:13:45that I can
00:13:46see
00:13:47mainly
00:13:48first of all
00:13:50we
00:13:50we need
00:13:54the international
00:13:55and the regional
00:13:56support for this agreement
00:13:57and when it was
00:13:59for the regional agreement
00:14:01or the international agreement
00:14:02sorry to say that
00:14:05the americans
00:14:06were there
00:14:06most of the time
00:14:07but unfortunately
00:14:10we did not get anywhere
00:14:11okay
00:14:13now there is a new element
00:14:15that the region
00:14:17are there
00:14:18and the lack
00:14:20of the european
00:14:22influence
00:14:24in getting
00:14:25a deal
00:14:26to be there
00:14:27it's
00:14:28it's
00:14:29one of the things
00:14:30that we
00:14:30is really missing
00:14:31we don't need you
00:14:34only to support
00:14:35the palestinian
00:14:35financially
00:14:36and economically
00:14:36and all that
00:14:37we want you to be
00:14:39involved in the
00:14:39political issue
00:14:40we are in your
00:14:42front door
00:14:42we are very close
00:14:44to you
00:14:45more than
00:14:45anybody else
00:14:46the lack
00:14:48of your
00:14:48not interest
00:14:52you are interested
00:14:52in making peace
00:14:53for this
00:14:53but your involvement
00:14:54why not
00:14:57why not to be
00:14:59involved politically
00:15:00in order to get
00:15:01a deal done
00:15:02between us
00:15:03and the israelis
00:15:03and you have a lot
00:15:05to influence
00:15:05you have
00:15:06a lot
00:15:07economically
00:15:09educational
00:15:10you name it
00:15:12in everything
00:15:12you have a role
00:15:15to play there
00:15:15so
00:15:17i'm here
00:15:19to ask you
00:15:19to support us
00:15:20both
00:15:21in order to reach
00:15:22an agreement
00:15:23by to be involved
00:15:24in the
00:15:24issue of peace
00:15:26between us
00:15:26and the palestinians
00:15:27what we are asking
00:15:29for palestinians
00:15:29if you ask me
00:15:30i want my freedom
00:15:33and i want my dignity
00:15:34and i want a better
00:15:36future for my children
00:15:37and grandchildren
00:15:38why you are not
00:15:40supporting that
00:15:40for why
00:15:42i want my freedom
00:15:44because i want to end
00:15:45the occupation
00:15:45and i want
00:15:47my dignity
00:15:48in order to have
00:15:48my own state
00:15:49that's my dignity
00:15:50that's who i am
00:15:51and i want
00:15:53to have a better future
00:15:54by living side by side
00:15:56with my neighbors
00:15:56in a peaceful way
00:15:58and a good will
00:15:59is this too difficult
00:16:02to ask for
00:16:03is it so difficult
00:16:05for people to understand
00:16:07what is the meaning
00:16:08of freedom
00:16:09and you all
00:16:10taught us
00:16:11what is the human rights
00:16:13what the international law
00:16:14what all of that
00:16:15and when it comes to us
00:16:17it's a different matter
00:16:19you don't care
00:16:20we need your support
00:16:23as much as you could
00:16:25and this is my message
00:16:26to you
00:16:27it's not difficult
00:16:28between us
00:16:29to reach an agreement
00:16:30we have many alternatives
00:16:31for the agreement
00:16:32for every single issue
00:16:34that is in our way
00:16:35we worked on it
00:16:38in details
00:16:39for all the issues
00:16:41refugees
00:16:42jerusalem
00:16:43borders
00:16:44territory
00:16:45and all that
00:16:46we have
00:16:47we have an agreement
00:16:48we have different alternatives
00:16:49we could look at it again
00:16:51with your support
00:16:52with your help
00:16:53and we can show you this
00:16:55and to see
00:16:56how can you play a role
00:16:58in order to be more
00:16:59effective
00:17:00in the peace
00:17:01process
00:17:02between the palestinians
00:17:03and the israelis
00:17:04it's not enough
00:17:05for the region
00:17:06and the americans
00:17:08we want the europeans
00:17:10to be there
00:17:11with their weight
00:17:14and another thing
00:17:16of course we have
00:17:18all the
00:17:20many european countries
00:17:22they recognize
00:17:23the state of palestine
00:17:24and when it comes
00:17:26to italy
00:17:27it's still
00:17:28it's still
00:17:29you know
00:17:29hanging there
00:17:30we want your support
00:17:32for that
00:17:32because for us
00:17:34this is the key issue
00:17:36in order to reach
00:17:38a peace agreement
00:17:38and it's a key issue
00:17:40for a real reform
00:17:42within the political system
00:17:44of the palestinian people
00:17:45and we want you
00:17:46to think of this
00:17:47as well
00:17:48and thank you
00:17:49very much
00:17:50for having us
00:17:50thank you very much
00:17:55now i'd like to
00:17:56give the floor
00:17:57to my colleagues
00:17:58who are present
00:17:59here
00:17:59honorable
00:18:01provinzano
00:18:02first of all
00:18:12i'd like to
00:18:12warmly thank you
00:18:14and thank
00:18:14mr honorable
00:18:16fascino
00:18:16who organized
00:18:17this meeting
00:18:18we will come
00:18:23with great pleasure
00:18:24and satisfaction
00:18:24the ceasefire agreement
00:18:28and your presence
00:18:29here
00:18:30testifies
00:18:32the need
00:18:34and the
00:18:35will
00:18:36we all have
00:18:37to take the adequate
00:18:38steps
00:18:39to reach peace
00:18:39we have a truce
00:18:41which is ongoing
00:18:42but we don't have peace yet
00:18:44the trump plan
00:18:47and the resolution
00:18:48of the security council
00:18:49of the un dating
00:18:51back to a couple
00:18:52of days ago
00:18:53undoubtedly represent
00:18:55some
00:18:55steps forward
00:18:57but
00:18:57they are
00:18:59constrained
00:19:01they have limitations
00:19:02they are vague
00:19:04and these gaps
00:19:05must be filled
00:19:06by politicians
00:19:07politicians
00:19:08in israel
00:19:08politicians
00:19:09in palestine
00:19:10and
00:19:11at this particular
00:19:12moment
00:19:13and i believe
00:19:14that the international
00:19:14community too
00:19:15should step in
00:19:17and italy
00:19:18included
00:19:19your appeal
00:19:21is very very important
00:19:22however there is
00:19:23a feature
00:19:24that i would like
00:19:25to ask you about
00:19:27which has to do
00:19:28the political context
00:19:29in which
00:19:30your peace
00:19:31initiative
00:19:32is placed
00:19:34this is a very complex
00:19:40indeed complicated
00:19:41political context
00:19:43i have just returned
00:19:47from a visit
00:19:48both to israel
00:19:49and to palestine
00:19:51and what emerged
00:19:57was that the situation
00:19:59is extremely serious
00:20:01both in tel aviv
00:20:03than in the south bank
00:20:05it is indeed
00:20:06very worrying
00:20:07and mr baylin
00:20:10made a fundamental
00:20:15link
00:20:18happening
00:20:18with peace
00:20:20and justice
00:20:21the government
00:20:22in israel
00:20:23apparently
00:20:23does not want
00:20:24either
00:20:24we i believe
00:20:28have the duty
00:20:29to shed light
00:20:35on the important
00:20:38issues
00:20:39in terms of
00:20:40defending
00:20:41the rule of law
00:20:42and i'm thinking
00:20:43in particular
00:20:44of israel
00:20:44and i'm thinking
00:20:45of the situation
00:20:46in prisons
00:20:47and the situation
00:20:48of human rights
00:20:49at the same time
00:20:51we have
00:20:52the duty
00:20:53to ask
00:20:55our interlocutor
00:20:57the palestinian authority
00:20:59to make an effort
00:21:00to
00:21:01regenerate
00:21:03itself
00:21:05refusing
00:21:06rejecting hamas
00:21:07is not enough
00:21:08we need
00:21:09a highly
00:21:10legitimized
00:21:11supported
00:21:12political
00:21:15leadership
00:21:16which is
00:21:17supported
00:21:18from the bottom
00:21:19up
00:21:20so i would like
00:21:21to ask you
00:21:22what do you expect
00:21:23so that we can
00:21:25still support
00:21:26all the actors
00:21:26both in israel
00:21:27and in the palestine
00:21:29wish for the
00:21:30two state solution
00:21:32these actors
00:21:34must negotiate
00:21:35because the impression
00:21:36from the outside
00:21:38is that peace
00:21:39initiatives
00:21:40often
00:21:41are fragmented
00:21:44we supported
00:21:46the initiative
00:21:47of
00:21:49former
00:21:50minister
00:21:53holmert
00:21:53and the
00:21:54former minister
00:21:56al-quida
00:21:57for his
00:21:58it's their peace
00:21:59initiatives
00:22:00but all
00:22:00peace
00:22:01initiatives
00:22:02must
00:22:02be pulled
00:22:04together
00:22:04somehow
00:22:05and as
00:22:05the
00:22:06democratic
00:22:07party
00:22:07of it
00:22:08we
00:22:09presented
00:22:10several
00:22:11resolutions
00:22:13in parliament
00:22:14here in italy
00:22:15to actually
00:22:16acknowledge the
00:22:16state of
00:22:17palestine
00:22:18because
00:22:18even the
00:22:20prospect of
00:22:21a confederation
00:22:22may be
00:22:23examined
00:22:25on an equal
00:22:26footing
00:22:27when the
00:22:27other state
00:22:29is fully
00:22:30recognized
00:22:31so for
00:22:32for us
00:22:32this is a
00:22:33fundamental
00:22:34element
00:22:35indeed
00:22:36over the
00:22:36last few
00:22:36hours
00:22:37we are
00:22:38asking for
00:22:38the
00:22:39transitional
00:22:40Gaza
00:22:40government
00:22:41to have
00:22:42Palestinian
00:22:44participation
00:22:45because this
00:22:46lays the
00:22:46groundwork
00:22:47for a
00:22:48true
00:22:48comeback
00:22:49of the
00:22:50Palestinian
00:22:50authority
00:22:51in doing
00:22:53this
00:22:53we need
00:22:56to meet
00:22:57and support
00:22:58all the
00:22:59possible
00:22:59stakeholders
00:23:00and all
00:23:01the actors
00:23:02amongst the
00:23:03meetings we've
00:23:04had together
00:23:04with the
00:23:05delegation of
00:23:06European
00:23:06socialists
00:23:07over the
00:23:07last few
00:23:07days
00:23:08as I said
00:23:08we met
00:23:09with the
00:23:09family of
00:23:10Marwan
00:23:10Marguti
00:23:11we ask
00:23:12for his
00:23:13free
00:23:14liberation
00:23:15immediately
00:23:17because he
00:23:18is a
00:23:19fundamental
00:23:20stakeholder
00:23:21who is
00:23:23loyal to
00:23:24the Oslo
00:23:25agreement
00:23:25who is in
00:23:26line with
00:23:26the Oslo
00:23:27agreement
00:23:27and who
00:23:28supports
00:23:32the idea
00:23:33we are
00:23:33still
00:23:34keen on
00:23:36of a
00:23:37secular
00:23:38lay
00:23:39Palestine
00:23:39what we
00:23:40are asking
00:23:41you
00:23:42in addition
00:23:43to
00:23:43exercising
00:23:44pressure
00:23:44on the
00:23:45European
00:23:45Union
00:23:45of course
00:23:46and
00:23:47on the
00:23:48Italian
00:23:49government
00:23:49what we're
00:23:49asking
00:23:50is how
00:23:51we can
00:23:52practically
00:23:52tangibly
00:23:53support
00:23:54your
00:23:55efforts
00:23:55and your
00:23:56commitment
00:23:56to peace
00:23:57thank you
00:23:59Honorable
00:24:00Boldrini
00:24:01thank you
00:24:02Madam Chair
00:24:04I'd like to
00:24:05thank our
00:24:05colleague
00:24:06Honorable
00:24:06Fassino
00:24:07for this
00:24:07initiative
00:24:08and it is
00:24:09a great
00:24:09pleasure
00:24:10for me
00:24:10to have
00:24:11this
00:24:12delegation
00:24:13I already
00:24:13met
00:24:14Mr.
00:24:15Al-Abed
00:24:16on other
00:24:17occasions
00:24:17and I'd
00:24:18like to
00:24:19greet
00:24:19Mr.
00:24:20Baylin
00:24:21let me
00:24:22raise a
00:24:22point
00:24:23and I
00:24:24wanted to
00:24:25understand
00:24:25whether
00:24:25this
00:24:26initiative
00:24:26falls
00:24:27within
00:24:28the
00:24:28remit
00:24:29of
00:24:29the
00:24:29Geneva
00:24:30initiative
00:24:31or not
00:24:32because
00:24:32that's not
00:24:33clear to
00:24:34me
00:24:34since
00:24:34the
00:24:35agreement
00:24:35was reached
00:24:36in Geneva
00:24:37as the
00:24:38Geneva
00:24:38initiative
00:24:39or
00:24:39independently
00:24:40from that
00:24:41particular
00:24:42initiative
00:24:42number two
00:24:43number one
00:24:44number two
00:24:45I wanted to
00:24:45understand
00:24:46whether the
00:24:47concept of
00:24:47military
00:24:48occupation
00:24:48illegal
00:24:49military
00:24:50occupation
00:24:50of the
00:24:52South Bank
00:24:53is considered
00:24:54a problematic
00:24:55issue
00:24:55on the
00:24:56part of
00:24:57the Israeli
00:24:57public
00:24:58opinion
00:24:58I would
00:25:00like to
00:25:00know
00:25:00whether
00:25:01this
00:25:01is at
00:25:03the
00:25:03basis
00:25:04is the
00:25:05foundation
00:25:05of all
00:25:06these
00:25:06problems
00:25:07or whether
00:25:07it's
00:25:08considered
00:25:08a
00:25:09state of
00:25:11fact
00:25:12and nothing
00:25:15can be
00:25:15done
00:25:15about it
00:25:16so we
00:25:17are
00:25:18safer
00:25:18if
00:25:19settlers
00:25:19are
00:25:20in the
00:25:21South
00:25:21Bank
00:25:21this
00:25:22could be
00:25:22one of
00:25:24the
00:25:24options
00:25:25on
00:25:25Sunday
00:25:25with
00:25:26other
00:25:26colleagues
00:25:27we are
00:25:27about
00:25:27to
00:25:28leave
00:25:28to visit
00:25:31the
00:25:32South
00:25:32Bank
00:25:32but we
00:25:35know
00:25:35from the
00:25:36mayors
00:25:37that we
00:25:37are in
00:25:37touch
00:25:38with
00:25:38that
00:25:38cities
00:25:40in the
00:25:41South
00:25:41Bank
00:25:41are
00:25:42under
00:25:42siege
00:25:43people
00:25:43can't
00:25:43get
00:25:44out
00:25:44there
00:25:44are
00:25:45more
00:25:45than
00:25:45900
00:25:45checkpoints
00:25:46the
00:25:47economy
00:25:47is
00:25:48stifled
00:25:49universities
00:25:50only work
00:25:50online
00:25:51because
00:25:51students
00:25:52cannot
00:25:53get
00:25:53into
00:25:54the
00:25:55headquarters
00:25:57and the
00:25:58venues
00:25:58of the
00:25:58universities
00:25:59I'm
00:25:59with
00:26:00you
00:26:00for
00:26:00all
00:26:01the
00:26:01efforts
00:26:01towards
00:26:02peace
00:26:02I'm
00:26:02at the
00:26:03head
00:26:03of the
00:26:04human
00:26:04rights
00:26:04committee
00:26:05of
00:26:06within
00:26:06this
00:26:07very
00:26:07committee
00:26:08I am
00:26:08with
00:26:09you
00:26:09and I
00:26:09will
00:26:09always
00:26:10support
00:26:10you
00:26:10but
00:26:11let me
00:26:11understand
00:26:11this
00:26:12the
00:26:13prerequisites
00:26:14to speak
00:26:14of the
00:26:15two
00:26:15states
00:26:15can be
00:26:16found
00:26:16where
00:26:17because
00:26:18if
00:26:18settlers
00:26:19actually
00:26:21go against
00:26:21the
00:26:22IDF
00:26:22if
00:26:23they
00:26:23are
00:26:24violently
00:26:25opposed
00:26:26due to
00:26:26hotspots
00:26:27being
00:26:27removed
00:26:28it
00:26:28seems
00:26:29to me
00:26:29to see
00:26:30a
00:26:30scenario
00:26:31whereby
00:26:32settlers
00:26:33are
00:26:33not
00:26:35under
00:26:36control
00:26:36anymore
00:26:37they
00:26:37actually
00:26:38fight
00:26:40against
00:26:41the
00:26:41IDF
00:26:42with
00:26:42700,000
00:26:44settlers
00:26:45in
00:26:46the
00:26:46South
00:26:47Bank
00:26:47what
00:26:49state
00:26:50can we
00:26:51establish
00:26:51if there
00:26:52is no
00:26:52territorial
00:26:53continuity
00:26:54is it
00:26:55a realistic
00:26:57prospect
00:26:57to speak
00:26:58of a
00:26:58confederation
00:26:58as you
00:26:59do
00:26:59I believe
00:27:00that the
00:27:01level of
00:27:01violence
00:27:02and the
00:27:03level of
00:27:03hate
00:27:04is so
00:27:05high
00:27:06that it
00:27:07seems to
00:27:07me that
00:27:08there are
00:27:08no
00:27:09foundations
00:27:10for this
00:27:11solution
00:27:12so what
00:27:14can be
00:27:15the
00:27:15solution
00:27:15to
00:27:17stopping
00:27:18the
00:27:18violence
00:27:19from
00:27:19settlers
00:27:19is it
00:27:20realistic
00:27:21that the
00:27:22outposts
00:27:23can be
00:27:24removed
00:27:24can we
00:27:25speak
00:27:25of a
00:27:26Palestinian
00:27:27state
00:27:27a
00:27:28veritable
00:27:28state
00:27:30like
00:27:30presence
00:27:31on the
00:27:32part of
00:27:33Palestine
00:27:33because without
00:27:34that we
00:27:35cannot have
00:27:35a
00:27:35confederation
00:27:36thank you
00:27:38president
00:27:44Io molti anni fa ricordo un seminario.
00:28:14Grazie per la visione.
00:28:44Grazie per la visione.
00:29:14Grazie per la visione.
00:29:16Grazie per la visione.
00:29:18Grazie per la visione.
00:29:20Grazie per la visione.
00:29:22Grazie per la visione.
00:29:24Grazie per la visione.
00:29:26Grazie per la visione.
00:29:28Grazie per la visione.
00:29:30Grazie per la visione.
00:29:32Grazie per la visione.
00:29:34Grazie per la visione.
00:29:36Grazie per la visione.
00:29:38Grazie per la visione.
00:29:40Grazie per la visione.
00:29:42Grazie per la visione.
00:29:44Grazie per la visione.
00:29:46Grazie per la visione.
00:29:48Grazie per la visione.
00:29:50Grazie per la visione.
00:29:52Grazie per la visione.
00:29:56Grazie per la visione.
00:29:58Grazie per la visione.
00:30:00Grazie per la visione.
00:30:02Grazie per la visione.
00:30:04Grazie per la visione.
00:30:06Grazie per la visione.
00:30:08Grazie per la visione.
00:30:10Grazie per la visione.
00:30:12Grazie per la visione.
00:30:14I would like to know how your proposal fits in with the so-called Trump peace plan.
00:30:24What kind of interaction have there been, if any?
00:30:28And what type of evolution or development you see happening,
00:30:37starting from what, even though difficult, may seem a starting point.
00:30:42Honourable Fassino, yes, just one second.
00:30:47My question is, I'd like to, of course, thank our guests for being here.
00:30:53Number one, after the 7th of October and after the Gaza war,
00:30:59as was mentioned by Mr. Balin,
00:31:04a deep trough of hate and unwillingness to communicate was created.
00:31:10And, of course, trust was completely destroyed.
00:31:14Any peace needs a modicum of trust.
00:31:20After the 7th of October, that trust is indeed very weak in Israeli society
00:31:24and after the Gaza war is indeed even weaker amongst the Palestinians.
00:31:29How can we rebuild trust?
00:31:33Because I believe that this problem of rebuild trust and confidence is a priority.
00:31:40Without this trust and confidence, any project will be difficult to achieve.
00:31:46Thank you.
00:31:47Who would like to start?
00:31:56Who would like to start?
00:31:56Sami.
00:32:01Okay.
00:32:02Thank you all.
00:32:04You ask very difficult questions and indeed very interesting questions.
00:32:13I don't know from where shall I start to answer because all interrelated to each other.
00:32:19But can I start from the last one, which is the...
00:32:27Non c'è un ordine.
00:32:28There is no...
00:32:29There's no order.
00:32:30...and that.
00:32:32And the role of European also on this.
00:32:35Unfortunately, Europeans and others, they spend a lot of money for people-to-people programs.
00:32:44And what they call confident building measures.
00:32:51You know what happened after all those years?
00:32:56More radicalization in the Israeli side and more radicalization in our side.
00:33:00So there must be something wrong with this approach and the methodology of this.
00:33:05And you have to think about it differently.
00:33:07But we invite you to look at it in a different way.
00:33:10It didn't work because this should be coupled with actions on the ground so people can build a trust.
00:33:20But how come you want the Palestinians to have a trust while every day there are more settlements are built there?
00:33:28More terrorist settlers are acting on the ground there.
00:33:33900, I think, it is almost now 1,000, what do you call it, blocks, you know, for movement.
00:33:46It's more than 100 checkpoints.
00:33:49You know, we get used to that.
00:33:50You know, we forget about it, you know, we became part of our life.
00:33:53So in order really to build a trust, you have to have some action on the ground.
00:34:01That is, people have some hope, some vision for the future that there is something that's coming toward them.
00:34:08But as long as you are doing what you are doing there, but I don't know how you can build a trust for this.
00:34:15It's coupled with two things or even more than that.
00:34:19You have to have an action toward this.
00:34:21Other thing, you know, we talk about the settlements and how the settlements is difficult and all that.
00:34:28But, you know, when Israel decided to have peace with Egypt, they removed all the settlers from Sinai.
00:34:37It wasn't difficult.
00:34:39When Sharon, he's also from the Likud, from the right side, right wing in Israel, he decided to remove the settlers from Gaza.
00:34:50He did it.
00:34:51And in some points in the West Bank.
00:34:55Okay.
00:34:55So, you know, one thing to start to think about it in a positive way, it's not impossible, but it could be done in a different ways.
00:35:05And we have the alternative.
00:35:07We have not only in the Geneva, but other alternatives as well in how to deal with that issue.
00:35:12So, to me, the main difficult issue is to have a leadership who is willing to do so or to have an agreement.
00:35:25I'm talking about both sides, even though I am biased toward Abu Mazen, because I think he is the man that he can make peace with Israel now.
00:35:37And he can do it.
00:35:39Despite all what the Israelis tried to do to him for delegitimizing his role as the PA.
00:35:49And that was the biggest mistake that the Israeli policy was done even before 7th of October, because they were enhancing Hamas and delegitimizing the PA.
00:36:03And you see the result, what happened.
00:36:05So, this is the Israelis have to rethink their policy toward how to achieve peace with the Palestinians or how to make an agreement with the Palestinians.
00:36:15This is an important element.
00:36:19And here will come the European Union action with us.
00:36:26If you leave it between us and the Israelis, I can tell you from now, the asymmetry is too wide between us and them.
00:36:34The only agreement the Israelis want us to do is to accept what they are offering us.
00:36:40And this will not happen, because we have demands.
00:36:43Like I said, we have our own demands also.
00:36:46So, there is a need for a third party, which is now, we can see that there is an element to that.
00:36:58While the region and some Islamic countries with the Americans are there, they have the 20 points or whatsoever,
00:37:04but there is a role for the Europeans to be engaged in this, because there is a black hole within that 20 points.
00:37:13We can work together in order how to fulfill those issues in order to make it workable, to reach the end game, and how to get there.
00:37:25So, there is a role for the EU they can play for the reconstruction of Gaza, reconstruction of the West Bank as well.
00:37:35And why I am saying that?
00:37:36Because the status quo here, we, the Palestinians, we cannot utilize our natural resources in order to say, thank you, EU, we don't need your help, we don't need your support.
00:37:46We are not utilizing our, there is a lot of issues in the sea, there is a lot of issues in gas, in petroleum, in agriculture, in all of that.
00:37:58We are not allowed to touch it.
00:38:02So, you see, that's part of the problem.
00:38:04And we haven't seen a voice from the EU saying, you should really expand, you know, our, my own city now, Ramallah and al-Bireh.
00:38:17I cannot expand the boundary of the planning, boundary of the city of my own home.
00:38:24There is no, there is no concept in the Israeli mind for natural growth, only natural growth for the settlers, and not for us.
00:38:32Most of the buildings now in my hometown is vertical, you know, they're coming up because they cannot expand.
00:38:39And this is polarization.
00:38:41It will be difficult for us in the future to accommodate the infrastructure needed for this, with the growth of population and all that.
00:38:50There are many issues touching the people when you say the bottom up on how to encourage the people from there.
00:38:57People, they want their needs, and nobody is thinking about their needs.
00:39:04We're controlled.
00:39:06We were controlled in our life.
00:39:07Why somebody is controlling my life where to go from one place to the other?
00:39:11How much water I drink?
00:39:13How much electricity do I have?
00:39:15And I have to have a permit in order to come to the airport, in order to come and meet with you, see?
00:39:20Tabai.
00:39:23I mean, there are small issues, but there are very, very important issues in order to build the trust among the people,
00:39:31and as well to see the people that we are, there is something that's coming toward them for reaching an agreement.
00:39:37And believe me, we have many, not only Nasser Kudwe and Olmert plan.
00:39:45There is many other plans out there, and they all fit within the range of this.
00:39:50And the only thing that we can do in Geneva is how to combine Geneva with the 20 points that Trump is coming up, Paul.
00:39:56How we can make sure that our, at least, to make it to the people that this can be done, and for people to listen to us.
00:40:08We want you, the European here, and the Italian, and others, to think about it, and to think with us, and how to move forward for this.
00:40:18And I'm not complaining about anything, you know.
00:40:21I want to have peace with, we can have peace, me and Yusuf Belen, we already have it, Yani.
00:40:26We can revise this, and we can have it one more time.
00:40:30It just, sometimes, we find it very difficult, even for both of us to meet, in order to talk about it.
00:40:38You see?
00:40:38So, it's very fundamental, you support the European Union and the Italian government to join other European countries
00:40:49for the recognition of the state of Palestine.
00:40:52It is very important for us, because this, you are helping us for doing the reform within the state, and not from outside.
00:41:02We cannot do a reform with A, B areas, fragmented here and there.
00:41:07It cannot be done.
00:41:09It cannot be done, as simple as this.
00:41:11But we need to have the state in order to think, and we have an obligation toward the International Committee to act as a state.
00:41:19And one weapon, one parliament, and the judicial system, and executive system, that's where you can ask for a reform.
00:41:31I think reform is a matter that is happening to any state.
00:41:39I mean, in your state, I'm sure that there is a reform every other year, you know, to think about the development for the future.
00:41:46Why do you want us to have a reform under occupation in certain areas that we live in, and we have the best democracy there,
00:41:54and we have the best human rights there, and we have everything within the context of being under occupation.
00:42:02So please ask for the possible thing that can we do.
00:42:07No money is coming to us, our money from the Israelis, and nobody is giving us any money.
00:42:12We cannot pay the salary for the employment, for the employees.
00:42:16No workers are working in Israel now.
00:42:18The unemployment is more than 45% to 50% in the West Bank, and without saying anything about Gaza, what to do?
00:42:29So please, we need some decency in looking at the issue, and people to be fair.
00:42:37We're not saying that to be biased toward this side or the other side, but have some fairness in your proposal and your act toward what is happening there.
00:42:48Thank you.
00:42:52Yes, please.
00:42:55Well, thank you very much for your important comments and questions.
00:42:59One point is the issue of confederation, which has to take place between two states, and this is true.
00:43:12According to our booklet, if you read it, and I believe that you can easily send you the link to our book, which was updated lately.
00:43:23We are speaking about a confederation, which will be agreed upon or declared one and a half year after Israel's recognition of a Palestinian state.
00:43:38So the confederation is not a precondition, the confederation is not a precondition for the two-state solution.
00:43:46The two-state solution is a standalone solution.
00:43:50It can exist with or without a confederation.
00:43:55But what is the point of the confederation?
00:43:58And this is the big difference which happened to us between today and 30 years ago when we signed Oslo.
00:44:05If you speak about 520,000 settlers in the West Bank, if you don't count Jerusalem, this is not a number that any potential prime minister in Israel is going to tackle.
00:44:26Now, at the end, it depends on both sides, but more on the Israeli side, because we are holding the territories.
00:44:37So you have to have leaders like Rabin, like Sharon even, but Paris for sure, Barak and Olmert, who most of them were hawks at the beginning
00:44:58and were against the two-state solution and against compromises, but understood that there is no other solution for Israel.
00:45:05So, we need somebody like that who would be ready to go for the compromise.
00:45:16Now, you know their names.
00:45:23And we know their names.
00:45:25And we know them.
00:45:27And listen to what they say.
00:45:29I mean, the people who are now in their 60s.
00:45:34And they are on their way to become prime ministers, hopefully.
00:45:42They say that they are not going to touch the settlements.
00:45:49Because they know that they cannot do that.
00:45:51And the precedents of Sinai, and especially of Gaza, make it more difficult for them to think seriously about evacuation.
00:46:07Now, in Oslo, we did not mention the solution itself, but our view was that you can deal with 100,000 settlers and evacuate them.
00:46:19In Geneva, we said the same.
00:46:24The same.
00:46:26There were about 230,000.
00:46:28And we said, okay, we will find that the Israeli prime minister will be courageous enough to risk his life, her life, in order to evacuate them.
00:46:39And what is important for me to deliver here today to you is that if one says, I recognize the Palestinian state, I say, thank you very much.
00:46:55And then, as they say in Arabic, what happens later, you recognize the Palestinian state.
00:47:06I am ready to recognize the Palestinian state 40 years ago, since 40 years.
00:47:13They deserve their state.
00:47:14There is no reason why they won't have it.
00:47:16And I recognize it.
00:47:17But how can it become a reality if those who are in power are not ready to evacuate the settlers?
00:47:26And if you go to the West Bank and have a chance to meet with the settlers, I don't know, I don't meet with them, but if you, if you, will you meet them?
00:47:36No, no, no, no, no, we don't.
00:47:43Oh, no, no, no, no, we won't.
00:47:45No, no, no, we are not going to meet the settlers.
00:47:48But somehow, let us say, poetically.
00:47:52Unless they don't stop us along the road.
00:47:54Of course, they may.
00:47:55No, no, they may.
00:47:55And I hope not.
00:47:57They may.
00:47:58But poetically.
00:48:01What they say is, dear friends,
00:48:03Many years ago, you say that we are a small minority who will not have any impact on any solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
00:48:16But we had time, we had patience, and we won the case.
00:48:23Take a helicopter and look at the West Bank.
00:48:27Everywhere you have settlements.
00:48:29Where do you want to put the Palestinian state?
00:48:31On the roof of a settlement?
00:48:32What are you going to do?
00:48:35To evacuate all of them?
00:48:37And bring them to Tel Aviv?
00:48:40We are there forever and forget about the two-state solution.
00:48:45It is almost quote-unquote.
00:48:47And this is why I think that the debate in Europe and other places about recognition of a Palestinian state,
00:48:57it is important, and morally it is important, and that is why I am for it.
00:49:02But this is not going to solve the problem if you don't tell me how are you going to do that.
00:49:08And I don't see people who are recognizing the Palestinian state and then have a kind of a footnote saying,
00:49:19by the way, by the way, you can do that if you implement ABC.
00:49:24This is why the idea of a confederation, which was not an original idea.
00:49:33It was there hovering in the skies for many years between Israelis and Palestinians, even before 1948.
00:49:43But the idea of the confederation is just a tool in order to allow or to prevent any confrontation between the Israeli future leadership.
00:49:57I am not speaking about the current one.
00:50:00If Mr. Trump will convince Netanyahu to go out of the settlements, maybe he will do that.
00:50:07But otherwise I don't see something like that.
00:50:10But I am speaking about elections which will take place in 11 months from today.
00:50:16It is not such a long while.
00:50:17And if the future government is there and ready to compromise, but not ready to evacuate, forget it.
00:50:31We will continue the conflict forever.
00:50:36And the numbers will grow.
00:50:38See what happened with the resolution of the UN, which I really am happy about.
00:50:44We want to see such a development.
00:50:50Had you asked me a week ago whether it is realistic, I would say no.
00:50:54But you see, China and Russia don't abstain.
00:51:01Wonderful.
00:51:03But the point here is that it doesn't even refer to freezing settlements.
00:51:11Now, imagine that all what is said in the resolution there will be implemented.
00:51:17And you know that it won't.
00:51:20Okay.
00:51:20What will happen in the meantime?
00:51:22More and more settlements.
00:51:25Now, I want to tell these settlers, you do whatever you want.
00:51:31It will not have an effect on the future boundaries.
00:51:33Because at the worst scenario, you will remain there.
00:51:42You will have to be obedient servants, obedient residents of Palestine and go according to the laws of the Palestinians.
00:51:52And the same number of Israelis who would like to live in Palestine, in Israel, sorry, the same number of Palestinians who would like to live in Israel would have the right to do that.
00:52:09If out of the half a million, about 300,000 will be part of Israel as a result of land swap.
00:52:23It is 2.25% of the West Bank, according to the borders of the Geneva Initiative.
00:52:34And I tell you a secret.
00:52:36The person who drew the border sits here.
00:52:41He, I mean, why it is 2.25 if not 2.30?
00:52:50Because of this guy.
00:52:52So, we have the border, we have the map.
00:52:55We did not change it, for those who asked about the relations with Geneva.
00:52:59We took Geneva and put an umbrella of the EU on Geneva in order to allow different things, including an agreed-upon narrative, which had never been done before.
00:53:13Never, Palestinians and Israelis were ready to write together their narrative of the conflict.
00:53:20And this is the basis for this confederation.
00:53:22And if you look at it, it's 20 pages, but not boring.
00:53:27There are some other parts which are boring, but not that.
00:53:32So, the point is that we, if we understand that the major obstacle is the settlers,
00:53:43and if we understand that the Israeli future government is not going to evacuate them,
00:53:50then we must find a solution for them.
00:53:53This is a solution.
00:53:55Maybe there is a better one.
00:53:57Because one, we were asked about the Trump plan and our ideas.
00:54:07Trump suggested 17 enclaves in the West Bank of Israel.
00:54:14Why did he suggest it?
00:54:16Because he understood that somehow we had to deal with the settlements and the settlers, and he didn't know exactly how.
00:54:26So, he said, okay, Israel will have sovereignty, sovereignty on 17 areas.
00:54:33You know, we made the calculation of what does it mean for Israeli security to have such long borders.
00:54:42It is something like, I don't remember exactly the number, but something like 11% longer than the old green line between Israel and Jordan.
00:54:56It is crazy.
00:54:57It is crazy.
00:54:57Israel doesn't have such a big army.
00:55:00So, this is not a realistic idea.
00:55:04But the problem is realistic.
00:55:05This is the problem.
00:55:06This is the problem.
00:55:07He understood the problem.
00:55:09And he gave to it the wrong solution.
00:55:13When you speak about our idea of a confederation, we suggest something which, in our view, at least, is realistic.
00:55:22But it is not the Koran, and it is not the Bible.
00:55:25And if somebody else has something wonderful, building a Riviera somewhere, I mean, like Trump, I mean, he has such ideas.
00:55:34So, maybe if you have an idea about Riviera for the settlers or something like this, it is better than what we suggest.
00:55:40But I believe that this is a very concrete and realistic solution.
00:55:46And maybe one more, I think that about Marwan Barghouti, it is very important to speak.
00:55:59I know personally Marwan Barghouti for many years.
00:56:03He came after Oslo.
00:56:09And he was banished and was allowed to come back after Oslo.
00:56:16And he was one of those who supported Oslo very, very much.
00:56:23And his group, he had already a group of people in their 30s who supported the two-state solution.
00:56:33In every meeting that we had, he would count the people, the people's years in prison.
00:56:38And would say, okay, we are sitting here about, not about, exactly 230 years of prison.
00:56:47And they were proud of it.
00:56:50But he was a man of peace.
00:56:51At a certain moment, he came to me and said, Yossi, I don't have a better solution than to go to take to the streets.
00:57:01Because even in your government, which is moderate and whatever, you are not getting towards a Palestinian state.
00:57:10And people are sick and tired of us and believe that only Hamas is the solution.
00:57:15He went, I can testify wherever you want.
00:57:20Because he came to me to tell me that.
00:57:23He went, or he took to the streets because of Hamas.
00:57:27His competition as a Fatah person with Hamas.
00:57:32He saw Hamas as his biggest enemy.
00:57:34I tried to convince him not to do that.
00:57:39And I said to him, Marwan, you will never win on their turf.
00:57:46Terrorism is the turf of Hamas.
00:57:49Your turf now is peace.
00:57:51Put pressure on peace.
00:57:53Whatever you can do, demonstrate, shout, scream.
00:57:58But terrorism, you will lose.
00:58:01And the rest is history.
00:58:06Now, he is still for peace.
00:58:09He is still very popular.
00:58:13Much more than before.
00:58:15He is the most popular Palestinian, according to all the public opinion polls in Palestine, for many years.
00:58:23And I think that those who believe in the need in Israel for a partner, a Palestinian partner,
00:58:32who is now also accepted by Hamas for different reasons.
00:58:37But the person who may really be an uncontroversial leader accepted by many streams in Palestine is Marwan Barghouti.
00:58:54Those who don't want to release him, of course, they say that he was punished for many.
00:59:01I mean, there is justification for that.
00:59:04I mean, he is not a San Suu Kyi.
00:59:07He was a traitor for a while.
00:59:10A terrorist for a while.
00:59:14But if you want a partner, it is Barghouti.
00:59:19I agree 100%, of course, that Abu Mazen, President Abbas, is a very, very serious partner.
00:59:31And that the people in our government who say that he is a kind of a terrorist, it is really a joke, unbased joke.
00:59:41Terrorist because he is paying the salaries of the Hamas people.
00:59:46Okay.
00:59:47But I think that an effort to release Marwan Barghouti, even Trump said that he is considering doing it.
00:59:57How can he consider to free Marwan Barghouti?
01:00:02I don't know.
01:00:04He doesn't speak about demonstrations.
01:00:06But this is the case.
01:00:09So if you ask me, I believe that one of the options for acting in a very targeted way is to call for his release.
01:00:24not because he must be exonerated, no, but because he can be a partner to Israel and he is a man of peace.
01:00:37And about other things, I think that such meetings are very important.
01:00:41and meetings in Europe are important, and public meetings are important to heal the voices of people who believe in peace.
01:00:50And historically, Oslo was not in the United States.
01:00:57Stockholm, where my negotiations with Abu Mazen about the permanent agreement in the 90s took place, is not in the United States.
01:01:06Even Geneva, to the best of my knowledge, is not in the United States, all the efforts that we did took place in Europe.
01:01:15I'm not speaking even about the Venice declaration of Haiti.
01:01:20And I believe, like Samir, and Madrid, of course, right, and it is all gone, at a certain moment, maybe because it is difficult to find the common denominator in Europe.
01:01:40Maybe because, at a certain moment, the Americans, even our very good friend Obama, said to the Europeans, leave it alone, leave it to me, and nothing happened.
01:01:51And it became a little bit, if you don't quote me, it became a little bit convenient for some European partners not to be involved anymore in the story.
01:02:03And our common call on you is, come back.
01:02:11And maybe another word of an Israeli, it is very easy to suggest sanctions.
01:02:19It is very easy.
01:02:21And you may argue whether it is right or wrong, whether we deserve it or not.
01:02:25But it is too easy.
01:02:30To go for peace is much more difficult than to suggest sanctions.
01:02:35Because you create hatred towards Europe.
01:02:38Europe became an enemy in Israel.
01:02:41Israel became an enemy for Europe.
01:02:43And you don't need it.
01:02:45And Israel do not need it.
01:02:46And believe me, for those who love Europe and who love the EU, it's an idea, in Israel, it's not easy.
01:02:58It's not easy.
01:03:02Grazie mille.
01:03:03Una testimonian.
01:03:04Thank you very much.
01:03:05Gente con tanti.
01:03:07Thank you so very much.
01:03:09You gave us food for thought.
01:03:11Also for our political deliberations.
01:03:13Thank you very much.
01:03:14Very, very much.
01:03:16Thank you very much.
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