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This special report, hosted by India Today's Rajdeep Sardesai, examines the alarming rise of 'white-collar' terrorism, focusing on a terror module uncovered in Delhi involving highly educated medical professionals. The discussion features insights from Lt. Gen. Syed Ata Hasnain (Retd.), Chancellor of the Central University of Kashmir; Brahma Chellaney, Professor of Strategic Studies; and Siddique Wahid, a historian and Distinguished Professor at Shiv Nadar Institution of Eminence. Strategic affairs expert Brahma Chellaney states, 'The Delhi case shows how, under the sway of radical Islamist ideology, physicians can turn into bomb makers and destroyers of human lives'. The programme explores whether this represents a new strategy by terror groups like Jaish-e-Mohammad and the challenges it poses for India's counter-terrorism apparatus.
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00:00Let's raise some big questions.
00:02What does Delhi 10-11 mean for Kashmir in particular,
00:06given the fact that this is now once again emerging as the locus for the sleeper cells?
00:12Is the terror that we are seeing once again homegrown, or is it Pakistan-sponsored?
00:18Are we seeing a change in strategy by terror outfits using white-collar terror?
00:23Is the bid to target urban centers?
00:26And how does one deal with white-collar terror?
00:31Joining me now, Professor Siddique Wahid, distinguished professor at Shiv Nadar University.
00:35He spent a number of years in the Kashmir Valley.
00:38Lieutenant General Syed Atta Hasnain, former GOC-15 course, so knows Kashmir also very well.
00:43Ramma Chalani, strategic affairs expert, also joining us.
00:47Appreciate all of you joining us.
00:48I want to come to you, Syed Atta Hasnain, General, because you wrote a piece today
00:52where you clearly pointed out the fact that you're concerned that urban areas could once again be targeted,
01:01this time using white-collar terror.
01:03Do you see this as an act of desperation, a regrouping of terror groups,
01:09or the fact that with the kind of general in charge in Pakistan,
01:14Pakistan is once again activating some of these sleeper modules?
01:18Are you seeing a change in strategy, General?
01:22Thank you, Rajdeep, first of all, for inviting me for your program.
01:26What I am seeing definitely is a revisit.
01:30In the sense, terrorism has a way of always getting recycled in different ways.
01:36One has seen this for the last 35 years in Kashmir.
01:39A particular strategy used at some time always comes back in a different era to get rejuvenated
01:49in many ways.
01:50Now, we have seen lots of terror attacks in Delhi in the early part of the millennium,
01:56late 90s to all that quietened out after that.
02:00And you found the focus primarily inside Jammu and Kashmir.
02:04The intelligence agencies have managed to isolate Jammu and Kashmir
02:07and busted most of the networks in the rest of urban India.
02:11But thereafter, we have seen that once militancy or terrorism as such,
02:16the terrorists have been reduced in Kashmir,
02:18we have not been able to completely obliterate,
02:22take out the various overground worker networks.
02:26These get recycled.
02:28It is primarily based on financial conduits,
02:31a lot of drug conduits which come into it,
02:34some ideologues,
02:35some issues regarding radicalization.
02:38That's how human resources and material resources keep getting recycled.
02:42Now, this is what we are exactly seeing happening in Jammu and Kashmir again.
02:46It cannot happen on its own.
02:48There has to be a sponsorship.
02:50Whether that sponsorship is internal inside JNK
02:53or is coming from outside will be determined,
02:56I suppose, from the investigations which are ongoing at the moment.
02:59But I suspect that it is not Delhi alone.
03:03As I think already brought out in your report earlier,
03:06there are a number of urban centers in northern India,
03:09in particular, under focus.
03:11And as the investigations keep giving out these revelations,
03:16we will find that this could have been a potential attempt
03:20to try and take this to different urban centers,
03:23considering the fact that there was 3,000 cages of ammonium nitrate,
03:27which was recovered, obviously, it meant that this was meant
03:30for multiple targets all over northern India.
03:34That's, you know, that's the worry, of course,
03:36that the volume of explosives suggested
03:38that this was not just about some limited attack,
03:41which was a panic attack, some believe, at Red Fort,
03:44but was actually planned for a much bigger attack.
03:46Some believe on December 6th was the plan,
03:49which was, of course, the anniversary of the demolition of the Babri Masjid.
03:52But Professor Siddiquh Waid, this radicalization that we are seeing,
03:58is there a new trend when you hear of a doctor's module,
04:02those who are working in universities, in hospitals,
04:07being in some way indoctrinated?
04:10Is that a new form of radicalization?
04:13We've heard about urban youth being radicalized
04:16when Simi was operating in the early 2000s.
04:19Are we seeing a new kind of radicalization?
04:25Rajdeep, you know, I should begin by saying
04:27that I'm not an expert on, you know, terror or terrorism.
04:33But I want you to explore the Kashmir angle with you
04:36because you've understood Kashmir,
04:37this radical element that Jamaat-e-Islami,
04:40you know, the overground workers are being now picked up.
04:44Do you believe that this has existed
04:46or is this something new that you're seeing?
04:48Well, let me say that you used a word earlier in the show
04:56where you said that there's, is this an act of desperation, you know?
05:01And despair there is a lot in Kashmir,
05:05but I certainly didn't sense a despair towards violence
05:10and a despair that would push towards violence.
05:13I think that despair is, you know, not knowing exactly what is going on.
05:18So if you're asking me, yes.
05:20I mean, for me, it is a surprise to see this,
05:25being in Kashmir, living in Kashmir,
05:27to see that this has been traced to Kashmir.
05:32And I say traced in inverted commas
05:35because I think we are still waiting to see the evidence.
05:38And I think that that's going to be very important to, you know,
05:43to determine then what exactly is going on.
05:46But the reason I ask you this, Professor Wahid,
05:49because we saw after Pahalgam and the terrible terror attack,
05:54there are lots of Kashmiris come out of the street,
05:56take on Pakistan.
05:58And in a way, there was a universal condemnation
06:02of what happened in Pahalgam.
06:04Now, six months later, we are seeing this new form of terror
06:07being linked to various modules operating out of Kashmir
06:12or certainly having an epicenter in parts of Kashmir.
06:16Do you see that there has been a regrouping,
06:21a resurfacing of some of the old groups in this new form?
06:27Possibly.
06:28Yeah, like I said, I mean, my expertise on this is very limited.
06:32And I don't, I mean, I, there's nothing that I have witnessed
06:38in, you know, the recent past that would suggest to me
06:43that, you know, something like this was in the offing.
06:47Okay.
06:48Brahma Chalani, Kashmir has been at the epicenter of terror activity
06:54for almost three decades.
06:55The militancy of the 19, late 80s, 90s metamorphosed
07:01into some form of increasing cross-border terror that was used.
07:06There was a period when there were foreign militants.
07:08Now we are seeing the revival, possibly, of homegrown groups.
07:12Do you see a pattern emerging?
07:15Do you believe that this is post-Pahalgam,
07:19post-Operation Sindhur groups like the Jesh,
07:21in particular, now using possibly some of these educated professionals
07:27as part of their sleeper cells?
07:31Whatever the links of the suspects to Kashmir
07:35or to Pakistan's Jesh-e-Mohammed,
07:39the fact is that the terror module and the suspects
07:43were based in India's national capital region.
07:49That is the most important fact.
07:51That they were operating out of NCR.
07:55That they were planning something major.
07:58Now, another more disturbing thing is that it's well established
08:01that poverty or ignorance does not drive terrorism.
08:05Many major international terrorist attacks
08:08have been carried out by well-to-do individuals
08:10or highly trained professionals who were leading comfortable lives.
08:15Such attacks include 9-11,
08:17the CAFE attack on foreigners in Dhaka in 2016,
08:20and the Jihadist bombings in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday in 2019.
08:26The Delhi car explosion and the uncovering of a terror module
08:31with a large stockpile of military-grade explosives,
08:35however, represent an even more alarming trend.
08:39Medical doctors, medical doctors who are trained to save human lives
08:43turning into agents of death.
08:47Doctors, as you know, by training and ethical commitment
08:49are meant to save lives,
08:52not to kill the innocent by embracing terrorism.
08:56The Delhi case shows how,
08:58under the sway of radical Islamist ideology,
09:02physicians can turn into bomb makers
09:04and destroyers and destroyers of human lives.
09:08And I think that is the most troubling aspect
09:11of what we are seeing.
09:14These people, these individuals who are bound
09:17by the Hippocratic oath.
09:20The very first principle...
09:21But we've seen, as I said, in the 2000s
09:25when there were terror attacks in the country,
09:29many of them were traced to student groups,
09:32some of whom were training to be engineers.
09:35So it's not as if white-collar terror groups
09:38have not tried to operate in the past.
09:41Are you seeing something new and different?
09:44No.
09:44Well, white-collar terrorism is well-known
09:48and well-established.
09:49I'm talking about medical doctors.
09:52Medical doctors, despite the Hippocratic oath,
09:56the very first principle of Hippocratic oath
09:58is do no harm.
10:02So when medical doctors embrace terrorism,
10:05it exposes the chilling reality
10:07that individuals entrusted with preserving human life
10:12can, under the sway of ideology,
10:16turn into destroyers of life.
10:19So this raises a larger question,
10:21is there a shift emerging in the nature
10:22of terrorism threat in India?
10:24Because traditional terror cells
10:27often recruited from marginalised,
10:31less educated,
10:33or economically disadvantaged segments of society.
10:37So when there is ideological radicalisation
10:40of doctors,
10:41doctors and other highly trained professionals,
10:44it increases,
10:46it increases the threat for the state.
10:50It also makes it more difficult
10:51to deal with such radicalisation
10:54because highly trained professionals like doctors,
10:58they can operate under the radar
11:01of traditional security surveillance.
11:04Their professional status provides a perfect cover
11:07for clandestine operations,
11:10allowing them to move and operate
11:12in high-security zones like the NCR
11:14without raising immediate suspicion.
11:16That's the reason why this terror module
11:18was able to operate
11:19and look at the quantity
11:22of military-grade explosives
11:25that were recovered from this module,
11:282,900 kilograms.
11:30It clearly suggests that this particular group
11:33was planning something really big,
11:38just the way something happened in Mumbai
11:41on 26-11.
11:43So,
11:44the sophisticated infrastructure,
11:48Rajdeep,
11:49that this particular episode highlights
11:52does require
11:55a shift in India's counter-terrorism strategy.
11:59It requires a multi-pronged approach
12:01that goes beyond traditional security measures.
12:05Let me just take what you've said
12:07to General Atta Aslan.
12:09And if this is a new challenge
12:10or new threat being posed
12:12by these white-collar terror groups,
12:14many of them in this instance
12:16seem to have had be MBBS students.
12:19Obviously, therefore,
12:20as Brahma just explained,
12:22their clandestine operations
12:23that much more difficult to unearth.
12:26Do you believe security forces
12:27in this country are equipped
12:29to tackle this kind of new force
12:32that is emerging?
12:33And are you convinced
12:34that this new force
12:35is being backed by across-the-border groups
12:38like the Jesh?
12:40Rajdeep,
12:41I tend to agree with
12:42Brahma Shalani sahab
12:43to a great extent.
12:46Let me explain it
12:46from a different angle.
12:48My experience in Jammu and Kashmir
12:50has always showed me
12:51that there were a very large number
12:53of overground workers there.
12:55Networks proliferated all over.
12:58All these overground workers
13:00were white-collar types.
13:02They were all mostly
13:03from the white-collar domain.
13:08Bureaucrats, even policemen,
13:10some professionals, etc.
13:12But I did not ever come across a case
13:14where a white-collar overground worker
13:16then got converted
13:18to become an actual terrorist.
13:21That's a rarity.
13:22I have not really come across it.
13:23So what you're seeing at the moment,
13:25what Brahma Shalani sahab is saying,
13:27is absolutely right.
13:28This is something quite new.
13:30And we have seen this happening with ISIS.
13:34You see, it's not in India
13:35we have seen,
13:36but in ISIS we definitely saw
13:3740,000 fighters from all over the world,
13:41many of them white-collar people
13:43who came and joined,
13:44who were sort of attracted
13:46to the very glitchy propaganda
13:48which the ISIS had been able
13:49to put together
13:50through their famous magazine
13:52called The Beak.
13:54Now, this is the kind of transformation
13:56which has probably taken place
13:58as far as terrorism
13:59as India is concerned.
14:01And yes,
14:02it's going to be a challenge
14:04for our security forces.
14:06I once again say
14:07that the Indian intelligence agencies
14:09and security forces
14:10have kept India
14:12by and large safe
14:13for the last 15, 17 years.
14:16No major problems in urban areas.
14:19But this sudden revisit
14:20of terrorism in Delhi
14:21obviously throws up
14:22a completely new challenge.
14:24And as very correctly assessed
14:26by Brahmachal Ani sahib,
14:28most of the white-collar workers
14:29can continue to work
14:31under the radar.
14:32You don't tend to,
14:33when you look at a person,
14:35you don't tend to believe
14:36that this is a man
14:37who can perpetrate
14:38an act of violence
14:40as heinous,
14:41as the one
14:41which has been done
14:42at the Red Fort area.
14:44So obviously,
14:44but I also have
14:46a tremendous amount
14:47of confidence
14:47in the ability
14:48of the Indian intelligence services
14:50and security forces.
14:51They will convert
14:52very quickly
14:53and they will re-emerge
14:54as winners
14:55on this,
14:56I'm very certain.
14:57Now,
14:58I just want Siddiquh Wahid,
14:59forget the terror aspect itself.
15:02I remember
15:03in the 1990s,
15:05words like alienation
15:06and misguided youth
15:07were used
15:08in a way
15:09in the Kashmir Valley.
15:11I keep hearing these words.
15:12Do you believe
15:13a lot of this
15:14is built on
15:15those old
15:16tropes
15:19of alienation,
15:21of misguided youth?
15:23Are we seeing
15:24a kind of
15:25new generation
15:26of Kashmiris
15:27who have seen
15:28nothing else
15:29in their lives
15:29but the gun
15:30around them?
15:34You know,
15:35again,
15:37Raj,
15:37I'll have to
15:38plead ignorance
15:40on this score
15:41because I think
15:42it's a very
15:42sort of specialized
15:43area
15:44where you have
15:46to have,
15:46you know,
15:47ground information.
15:48As far as
15:49alienation goes,
15:50that exists.
15:52I mean,
15:52it's not something
15:53that,
15:53you know,
15:55is invented.
15:56I think
15:57that does exist.
15:59As to,
16:00as I said earlier,
16:01I had not sensed
16:03that there was
16:05a desperation
16:05to go to violence
16:06and certainly
16:07violence of this extent
16:08and in this manner.
16:10is something
16:13that is
16:14quite a surprise
16:14to me.
16:15I mean,
16:15and in the last
16:17few weeks,
16:19I mean,
16:19you know,
16:20these,
16:21many surprises
16:22like this
16:22have sprung up
16:23in what used
16:25to be the
16:26Jammu and Kashmir
16:26state.
16:27And one is
16:28very perplexed
16:29and wonders
16:30what it bodes
16:32for the future,
16:33I think.
16:34as far as
16:36white-collar
16:37terrorism
16:38as has been
16:39referred to,
16:40frankly,
16:41it's the first
16:42time I'm hearing
16:43it.
16:44And I suspect
16:45this is what,
16:47you know,
16:48is defined
16:50by people
16:52who are educated
16:53and it's not,
16:54you know,
16:55no longer
16:55we are talking
16:56about the
16:57uneducated,
16:58somehow sort
16:59of an organized
17:00form of violence
17:02that people
17:03are organized
17:04by educated
17:06cadres,
17:07you know,
17:08is taking place.
17:10And if that
17:11is the case,
17:12then I think,
17:13yes,
17:14we've reached
17:14another level.
17:16I just want to
17:16play,
17:17though,
17:17what the
17:18Prime Minister
17:18said after
17:19Operation Sindur
17:20because one
17:20of the questions
17:21that has been
17:22raised,
17:22it's come
17:23through sources
17:23that acts
17:24of terror
17:25will be treated
17:25as acts
17:26of war.
17:27At least
17:27that's the
17:27message that's
17:28gone out.
17:29Listen in to
17:29what the
17:30Prime Minister
17:30had said
17:30then and I'll
17:31get then
17:31Brahma
17:32and
17:32Seyed
17:33Atah
17:33has
17:33to
17:33respond.
17:36Operation
17:37Sindur
17:38has
17:38a new
17:39normal
18:22The government has said we've rewritten the terror doctrine.
18:26Some suggesting acts of terror will be treated as an act of war.
18:29How does one look at what has happened at Redford?
18:32Can it be squarely distinguished from what happened in Pehalgaam in Baisaran six months ago?
18:40If it's true that the suicide bomber behind the deadly car explosion and the arrested suspects
18:47are linked to the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed,
18:53it raises the larger question as to what are the enduring results of Operation Sindhuur,
18:58if any.
18:59Operation Sindhuur, as you rightly pointed out, was launched in response to cross-border terrorism
19:04with the aim of controlling that scourge by imposing deterrent costs on Pakistan.
19:10Today, the infrastructure of cross-border terrorism remains intact for sure.
19:17Nobody is disputing that.
19:19Whatever terrorist infrastructure India destroyed during Operation Sindhuur is being rebuilt by Pakistan.
19:26But these are homegrown terrorists.
19:28Just to stop you there, you know, the fact is these are terror modules operating out of Jammu and Kashmir,
19:36particularly the Kashmir Valley, unlike Pehalgaam where the terrorists were operating and came in across the border.
19:41That's the distinction.
19:43How do you know that, Razdeep?
19:45First, the terror module was operating out of the National Capital Region, not out of JNK.
19:51Right.
19:51The investigators are only…
19:53They originated, they came from, originally from Kashmir.
19:58The individuals may have come from JNK, but they were based in NCR.
20:04Why are you not appreciating that main point?
20:07They were operating out of NCR.
20:10Let's be clear on one thing.
20:12They were operating from the heart of the Indian state, and they were operating with impunity
20:18because they were able to accumulate 2,900 kilograms of military-grade explosives.
20:25The point is this, that Operation Sindhuur was launched with a clear purpose.
20:31But Pakistan today has become only more emboldened.
20:34Look at its provocations and military buildup in the disputed Sirk Creek estuary.
20:39Not only has the relationship between Trump and Modi Saad following Operation Sindhuur,
20:45Trump now has a new love affair with Pakistan.
20:48In fact, we are seeing how U.S. and Chinese interests are increasingly converging on Pakistan.
20:56What the U.S. or China does for Pakistan ends up advancing the other side's goal.
21:01Both the U.S. and China are working, albeit separately, toward the same end,
21:08keeping cash-strapped Pakistan afloat so that it can be used for geopolitical balancing.
21:15Saudi Arabia, meanwhile, has concluded a mutual defense treaty with Pakistan,
21:19largely because Pakistan's scandal went up in the Muslim world, as it was seen, rightly or wrongly,
21:26as having held its own against a much stronger India during Operation Sindhuur.
21:32So when history is written, Operation Sindhuur will be seen as a political success,
21:39but a diplomatic and political disaster.
21:42India, an emerging global power, now finds itself equated with Pakistan,
21:48a quasi-failed rogue state.
21:51Is that what Indian policymakers wanted when they planned Operation Sindhuur?
21:56Which brings me back, General Hassan, to how does a government deal with presumably homegrown terror modules
22:07that have, as Brahma Chalani says, operated out of NCR?
22:13Because NCR today, it could be another urban center tomorrow.
22:17Do you give the same response?
22:20Should you have the knowledge that the J.S. Mohammed are their handlers
22:23that we gave during Operation Sindhuur, or you have to exercise considerable restraint?
22:30Considerable restraint would be the answer.
22:33Primarily, I'll tell you the reason for it.
22:36Circumstances have changed, as Brahma Chalani Saab just said.
22:39Circumstances have changed dramatically since May to November in six months.
22:45Diplomatically, geopolitically, if you look around the world,
22:48things are completely different from what they were in May.
22:50Partnership, strategic partnerships, et cetera, have diluted, reformed, reconfigured in different ways.
22:57National interest is the only thing that we have to look at.
23:01What is our national interest?
23:03Do we just go by the prime minister's statement?
23:07The prime minister made a statement for a contingency which existed in the month of May, April, and May.
23:14That contingency does not exist today.
23:17So why should we insist that the prime minister's word is the last word what he spoke in April and May?
23:23As to, no one has claimed, unlike what happened in Pehelgaam,
23:29where a claim was also made by a terrorist group on the other side of the line of control.
23:33This time, no claim has been raised so far.
23:36So let the investigations continue.
23:38And if this is seen to be only a homegrown group, but receiving sponsorship from across,
23:44I think then we will have to reconsider and look at all our options to see what our national interest detects.
23:51Ramah, you don't seem convinced.
23:53A quick final word.
23:54Well, I think, Razdee, look at the larger implications of what this deadly car explosion means for India.
24:08India is located in a very troubled neighborhood,
24:12but India remains a beacon of stability and economic dynamism.
24:18It's the only stable, economically booming country in South Asia.
24:23So when there's a deadly car explosion in Delhi, it attracts wide international media coverage.
24:31This act of terror was on the front pages of international newspapers.
24:38Such coverage in turn makes some people wonder whether India is really that stable.
24:46That is the reason why the terrorists behind the car explosion sought to target the NCR.
24:51That is also why Pakistan's ISI staged the horrific Mumbai attacks of 2611,
24:58by deliberately targeting India's economic capital to undermine India's image as a stable, booming country.
25:07And I think the latest terror attack is a sobering reminder that the front lines of national security
25:13lie not just along India's borders with Pakistan, but also within India's cities.
25:19So the security agencies need to proactively safeguard major cities by tightening urban security protocols.
25:27I must be fair to our agencies, though.
25:30This is the first such major incident that's taken place in more than a decade now.
25:37Therefore, we often don't give them enough credit for some of the modules that they bust.
25:43Obviously, stories like this become national headlines, but they also throw up fresh challenges,
25:48particularly when you're dealing, as our guests are pointing out, with white-collar terrorists,
25:53some of whom could be doctors, are doctors, in fact, as well.
25:58I appreciate my guests joining me here on my big talking point tonight.
26:02Thank you all very much.
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