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Crime Night! Season 1 Episode 4
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FunTranscript
00:00I'm Julia Zemiro and this is Crime Night, the show that goes beneath the surface to
00:24uncover the ideas, science and psychology behind crime.
00:28Tonight we're putting forensics under the microscope.
00:31How it became central to justice, how we use it and what happens when science becomes
00:35junk science.
00:36But before we dive into the evidence, let's meet our panel.
00:40She's an academic, Dean of Griffith University and an expert in offender psychology.
00:45Lie down on the couch and open your mind.
00:47It's Professor Danielle Raynald.
00:50Danielle, what first drew you into the world of criminology and was it a TV show?
00:56Well, it actually was.
00:58So I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean, so it would have to be a
01:04Caribbean soap opera, a classic Trinidadian soap opera called No Boundaries.
01:08And it was full of drama, crime, police investigations and I always dreamed that that would be me.
01:16Good to you fulfilling every single fantasy, how marvellous.
01:20He spent his career studying crime prevention and risk management, so if anything goes wrong
01:25tonight, we're blaming him.
01:26Please welcome Dr David Bartlett.
01:28Now David, what intrigues you most about crime?
01:35So like Danielle, I've got a psychology background, so it's the why.
01:39So why is it that some people do certain things, why they do it in those places, when and those
01:43sorts of things.
01:44Because if we understand that, we can actually start to think about crime prevention and
01:47the best way to address offending.
01:49And how long did it take you to complete your Ph.D.?
01:51Oh, it's over 11 years.
01:5311 years.
01:54I mean, anyone can do it.
01:56And we're joined by a writer and an actor who recently was diagnosed with ADHD.
02:04At least we know they aren't involved in organised crime.
02:07It's Reece Nicholson.
02:08Now Reece, I wonder what crime would you have the attention span to commit?
02:15Illegally downloading Caribbean TV shows.
02:19And finally, a comedian who grew up working in her parents' plant nursery.
02:24She's perfect for this show because she's spent a lifetime around blood and bone.
02:28It's Claire Hooper.
02:30And I can dig a deep hole too.
02:36Now Claire, have you ever been in trouble with a law?
02:41Just for the obvious, looking this good.
02:44From blood spatter to browser histories, forensics blend science with logic.
02:53In a world of lies, it promised evidence you could test, measure and analyse.
02:57And if nothing else, it's inspired a lot of television that always seems to start exactly
03:01the same way.
03:02A featured extra rolls into a car park, spots a dead body and boom, they're in a crime scene.
03:09With acting like that, they won't be back.
03:11Then in comes the detective.
03:13Emotionally unavailable, complex backstory, holding a takeaway coffee they'll never drink.
03:18They're soon joined by painfully cool lab tech, who has tattoos, glasses and tweezers.
03:23So you know they're legit.
03:25We found a single fibre from a crocheted card he sold exclusively at stall 67A at the Queen Victoria Markets.
03:31Exactly 42 and a half minutes later, who did it?
03:35Of course, we saw them in the opening frame.
03:40It's the guest star trying to prove they're more than just a quiz show host.
03:44Case closed.
03:46I know, I can't unsee that crocheted card again.
03:52No.
03:53Moby looks great.
03:57Today, forensics is everywhere.
03:59In our courtrooms, our headlines, even our family ancestry kits.
04:03It feels objective, conclusive and public faith is high.
04:07Danielle, what makes forensic evidence so important?
04:10Forensics has provided one of the biggest breakthroughs in criminal justice and in policing
04:15in the last century.
04:16If you think about what police had to rely on in terms of evidence before forensics,
04:20it was things like eyewitness testimony, which we know is flawed, offender confessions,
04:25which we know could be coerced.
04:27It also provided this scientific standard of proof.
04:30So it is subject to evidence-driven approaches, testing, analysis that's usually pretty rigorous.
04:37Most importantly, forensics has allowed us to identify offenders.
04:41So we can now link suspects to crime scenes, to victims, to weapons with greater precision.
04:48And the cool thing these days is there's so many different types of forensics.
04:51So you think about it, you've got fingerprints, you've got DNA, you've got ballistics, you've got forensic toxicology.
04:56And what it means is that at a particular crime scene, there can just be so many different types of forensics.
05:02In 2017, in South America, there was this case, it was a heist, and there were sort of lots of offenders involved.
05:08They went in and processed that scene and they found 457 different types of forensic evidence.
05:15Oh my God. Which is crazy.
05:16They actually used that evidence to go back and solve crimes from almost a decade earlier.
05:21457? Are there that many bodily fluids?
05:25I only know three.
05:27Yeah.
05:28And four?
05:29Rhys, have you ever used forensics to uncover any crimes?
05:34When I'm away, when I'm on tour, because the rule in our house is our dog doesn't sleep on our bed.
05:40But when I come home, on my side of the bed, there's always a perfect egg shape that is exactly the same circumference as my dog curled up in a tight little egg,
05:52or my husband's having an affair with a tiny woman.
05:59On screen, forensics is flawless.
06:01Clues are crystal clear and lab results are back in minutes, ensuring cases are tied up neatly before the credits roll.
06:08It's great drama, but it's also warped how we think about real life evidence, especially in the jury box.
06:13That phenomenon even has a name.
06:15It's called the CSI effect.
06:18The highly seductive notion that forensic science, at least on television, never fails.
06:24But in the real world, say the experts, forensic evidence is complex and maddeningly inconclusive.
06:31The CSI effect attracts unreasonable jury expectations and the belief that a single fingerprint can solve everything.
06:38Thanks to TV, we imagine DNA smeared everywhere, perfectly preserved crime scenes and dimly lit labs that solve murders in under an hour.
06:47I mean, please, I couldn't read a restaurant menu in that light.
06:51But in reality, forensic evidence analysis is slow, costly and not as conclusive as TV suggests.
06:57Danielle, how real a problem is the CSI effect?
07:00We know the jurors expect forensic evidence on cases.
07:04And when there's no forensic evidence on cases, they tend to view those cases as weaker.
07:09The public has this expectation that if there is DNA evidence, the crimes are going to get solved much more quickly.
07:16That is not the case in real life.
07:18We know that testing takes weeks, sometimes months.
07:22And there are even cases we know of here in some jurisdictions in Australia where sometimes there are backlogs in terms of testing.
07:29There was a report that came out in New South Wales that showed that 74 out of the 80 police commands reported that they have to manage incorrect public expectations and assumptions about forensics and about testing times.
07:43We love these TV shows. I mean, we've all got our favourites, but how do they misrepresent forensics?
07:49They misrepresent it in so many ways.
07:51So we think about fingerprints, for example, because that's one that people are most familiar with.
07:55So you watch these shows, you would think that you can take a fingerprint off any surface.
07:59And that's just not the case.
08:00You can't take a fingerprint off a wet surface, for example, a drink bottle that's got condensation on the outside.
08:06The other issue about fingerprints is that they can't be dated.
08:11So you can leave a fingerprint somewhere.
08:13It could have been there for years.
08:14So just think about this.
08:15So think about the last time that you slept away somewhere from home.
08:19So it might be a hotel room or a friend's house or a beach house.
08:23I spend half of my life in hotel rooms.
08:25What are you about to tell me?
08:27So there's a pretty good chance that you've left fingerprints in that room, right?
08:31Now those fingerprints could still be there.
08:33Now think about if a murder happened in that particular room tonight.
08:37If the crime scene investigators go in, they're liable to find your fingerprints at that murder scene.
08:42But that fingerprint could have been days, months, weeks.
08:45In some cases, defence lawyers have argued that their client's fingerprint was left there two years before the actual crime happened.
08:52Claire, what new kind of CSI show would you love to watch or indeed be in?
08:57CSI Home Makeover, where after they've solved the crime, they clean up the blood,
09:02they replace the carpet and the curtains, give it a lick of paint and some new curtains,
09:05and the grieving family gets the entertaining space they always drink.
09:17Every time we move through space, we leave a little forensic trail behind.
09:21Fingerprints, fibres and if you're enthusiastic enough, maybe even a little DNA.
09:26No judgement.
09:27Just how much evidence are we dropping without even realising?
09:31We find out in our experiment of the week.
09:39Like most of us, Claire Hooper and Reece Nicholson are no stranger to forensic crime shows,
09:44but the real question is, did it sink in or will it sink them?
09:48This is the ABC green room where Reece and Claire are joining us
09:51for what they think is a script read through with a producer.
09:54Oh my God.
09:55But what they don't know is that they're on camera.
09:57Oh, that's cute.
09:59And that the crime night team have rigged the room with bits and bobs
10:03to try and encourage them to be a little more messy than usual.
10:08Do we like pizza?
10:09Yes.
10:10They look like they've travelled a long way.
10:13They're from Italy actually.
10:16Beautiful.
10:17Thanks.
10:19Reece instantly makes themselves at home.
10:25Nope.
10:29Enter producer Dave.
10:31Okay, since this is the forensics episode,
10:35we're going to do a little experiment with you
10:38and that experiment starts right now.
10:41Okay.
10:43Good.
10:46Good news.
10:47So, you've been in here for a while.
10:48We're going to give you two minutes to clear this room
10:51of any forensic material you might have left in here.
10:54We shouldn't have had that spitting on each other competition.
10:57After that, the forensics team is going to come in,
10:59they're going to sweep the room.
11:00Your two minutes starts now.
11:03Oh God!
11:06Okay.
11:07Yeah, get them.
11:09I touch that.
11:10We touch that.
11:11This is all going in.
11:17Alright, so I touch that.
11:19We need a cloth.
11:20Get a make-up wipe.
11:21I think we just have to eat the whole pizza.
11:26How do I?
11:27Do I lint roll?
11:28You were brushing your hair!
11:30They did not have any shovels or lime.
11:32Get it!
11:34Get it!
11:38Time's up.
11:39The scene is sealed off and samples are taken from Rhys and Claire.
11:42Oh, there's going to be an internal.
11:44One cheek first.
11:45Oh!
11:46You've got beautiful fingerprints.
11:49Let's go to jail!
11:53It's now over to the forensics to see what they can find.
11:56Firstly, they photograph the potential pieces of evidence.
12:00Then they swab possible sources for saliva.
12:03They use a technique called oblique lighting to look for evidence on the floor.
12:09Fluorescent dust is used to locate and lift fingerprints.
12:14And UV light to detect fibres.
12:16Time to take this to the lab.
12:27How did Rhys and Claire go in the forensic face-off?
12:30Were they successful in removing traces of themselves from the scene?
12:33We'll find out later, because that was our experiment of the week.
12:36Oh!
12:41Forensics is often seen as flawless, the courtroom's most reliable witness.
12:45But in reality, you're not just trusting the science, you're trusting the expert interpreting it.
12:50And sometimes that science is really what the field politely calls junk science.
12:55David, when we say junk science, what are we actually talking about?
12:58Junk science is a set of techniques that are very subjective.
13:01So they rely more upon the subjectivity of the scientist rather than the actual scientific result.
13:07And we think here things like, for example, bite marks, tyre impressions, blood splatter.
13:12Bite marks are open to interpretation.
13:13I thought everyone would have a very individual set of teeth.
13:16You can't really tell the difference?
13:17No.
13:18I mean, English teeth, surely.
13:20Few cases have exposed the flaws in forensic science more clearly than one of Australia's most infamous miscarriages of justice.
13:28The Chamberlain case.
13:29Well, I just yelled out, has anyone got a torch?
13:32The dingo's got my baby.
13:33Michael and Lindy Chamberlain were on a family camping trip at Uluru in 1980, when their nine-week-old daughter Azaria disappeared from their tent.
13:42Lindy said a dingo had taken her baby, who was wearing a crocheted matinee jacket at the time, but police didn't believe her and instead charged her with murder.
13:50The prosecution leaned heavily on forensic evidence that sounded convincing until you looked at the details.
13:57The British forensic expert who testified about the dingo bite marks had never seen a dingo.
14:03Remarkable considering dingoes were central to the case.
14:05That dramatic blood stain under the Chamberlain's car dashboard, the supposed murder scene, turned out to be old milkshake and factory applied sound deadening spray.
14:15And the biologist who swore it was blood later admitted her testing was wrong and she couldn't recall how she came to make the error.
14:23The Chamberlain case was a masterclass in forensics gone wrong, a mix of poorly collected data and mistaken analysis.
14:29Three years later, Azaria's missing jacket was found, blood stained and buried near a dingoes lair and the verdict was overturned.
14:38Lindy Chamberlain has been released from Darwin jail and she won't be going back.
14:43At the same time, the Northern Territory government has announced there will be a new inquiry into the Chamberlain case.
14:49It took until 32 years and four inquiries later to officially state what Lindy had claimed since day one.
14:56A dingo did take her baby.
14:57David, how did these flawed forensics end up delivering a guilty verdict?
15:02This case really is a masterclass in forensic disasters and it's a forensic disgrace, quite frankly.
15:08So what essentially happened is the police relatively early on formed the view that Lindy was guilty and they built a circumstantial case around that.
15:17And that case was pretty weak, to be honest, until they had that forensic evidence.
15:20So the forensic evidence was the tears in the baby's clothes and the scientists testified that they were in fact caused by scissors as opposed to dingo bite marks.
15:31But also there was the blood splatter.
15:32And what we now know is that the kit used by the scientists to actually test that blood gave a false positive.
15:40So when she tested it, it actually tested positive for baby's blood, fetal blood.
15:45What we now know is that particular test kit gives false positives in relation to copper.
15:49So there was copper inside the car, there were sort of 22 individual sort of blood splatters in that car.
15:55But it was testing positive each time to copper.
15:58I can't wrap my head around how this went so wrong.
16:00I think a big part of this is that this case became this sensational media spectacle.
16:06There was so much intense national and international media scrutiny.
16:11And I think when you see that in cases, it puts an incredible amount of pressure on investigators to come up with a conclusive outcome and to do it quickly.
16:20And I think that is what led to some of the flawed investigative processes here.
16:24There were also significant mistakes that were made by the investigators in their decision making throughout the process.
16:32So the fact that they dismissed all of the alternative early explanations.
16:37So the dingo explanation was dismissed really early on because there was no precedent for the dingo taking a baby before.
16:45This case was the perfect storm.
16:47It was just littered with significant investigative errors.
16:50The media went crazy at that time.
16:53And a big part of it was the fact that this was a woman who didn't look like she was a grieving mother.
16:58She was a Seventh-day Adventist, you know, she was different.
17:01There was a real agenda.
17:03Absolutely. I mean, people talked about the fact that she didn't seem like she was emotional enough.
17:08Looking back on it with 2020 Vision, it's like rampant sexism, right?
17:11Like it's a whole country looking at someone going,
17:13Oh, you're not the type of woman I think you should be being about this, you're not crying, you're not grieving in the same way.
17:20I reckon there would still be people walking around thinking about Lindy Chamberlain going, hmm, I don't know.
17:25Like, it's such a strange thing.
17:27It's such a wild fluke that the matinee jacket was found.
17:31Because it was only, you know, like years later and it was someone else's accident that led them to find it.
17:35Do you think there's any chance that we would have gone back and assessed the forensic evidence again with fresh eyes if that jacket hadn't been found?
17:45She would still be in jail?
17:47I reckon she'd absolutely still be in jail.
17:49So there was a backpacker who decided to climb Uluru, he ended up falling and ultimately died.
17:54But the rescue team were out looking for his body and in that process, one of the searchers stumbled upon the matinee jacket.
18:00Now, he knew straight away what he'd found because he had been in the original search party looking for Azaria.
18:06What?
18:08I've got shivers just talking about it.
18:10And as soon as he saw it, he said he knew straight away that that was Azaria's matinee jacket.
18:14He knew exactly what he'd found.
18:16I think the other piece to this case that's also mind-blowing is that there were legit experts that worked on this case who got it wrong.
18:23There was Dr James Cameron, who was an experienced forensic scientist from the UK.
18:28There was Joy Kuehl, an experienced forensic biologist from New South Wales.
18:34These guys worked on a lot of cases and both of them got it wrong.
18:39What this case has really shown us is that forensics is like any other form of evidence.
18:44It needs to be questioned, it needs to be tested in court to essentially establish that it's reliable.
18:50In the mid-80s, everything changed when a chance discovery transformed the way crimes could be solved.
18:55British geneticist Sir Alec Jeffries stumbled upon the idea that each of us carries a unique molecular fingerprint.
19:04A kind of genetic barcode.
19:06Don't you just love it when that happens?
19:08The only thing I've stumbled on lately is the fact that I now make a noise every time I get up from the couch.
19:12Jeffries had uncovered the foundation of DNA profiling.
19:15Since then, it hasn't just transformed how we solve crime.
19:20It's redefined the very concept of evidence.
19:23DNA, or deoxyribonucleic acid, when she's feeling fancy, changed the game.
19:28David, how did DNA testing change forensics forever?
19:32So DNA is both unique and accurate.
19:33The chances of people, other than identical twins, sharing the same DNA profile is about one in a billion.
19:40And some people even say it's as high as one in a trillion.
19:43But the actual scientific testing of it as well is really accurate.
19:46So it's about 99.5% accurate.
19:49And in really well-controlled labs, it's as high as 100%.
19:52So unlike junk science like bite marks and things like that, where there's a lot of subjectivity on the basis of the scientist,
19:57it's actually the science itself that's proving whether or not this is a match.
20:03I think it's been a game changer.
20:05It's given us the ability to solve cold cases once DNA testing has become available.
20:10And that's enabled us to prosecute people who've evaded conviction.
20:14It's also given us the power to overturn wrongful convictions.
20:17And one of the best things about the effect that DNA evidence has given us is what we see in the US Innocence Project,
20:23where they've used DNA evidence to free over 375 people, 21 of whom were on death row.
20:32So I think DNA evidence genuinely saves people's lives.
20:37These days DNA doesn't just stay at the crime scene, it can turn up in the past, in places you'd never expect,
20:43with some very surprising results.
20:45Lou Wall takes a closer look.
20:47So you've sorted your super, prepaid your funeral,
20:50and now you're ready to tackle life's biggest question.
20:54What percentage Viking am I?
20:57Truthfully, I just got one of these genealogy testing kits to see if I could get an EU passport.
21:02And to confirm some deeply held suspicions about Grandad's secret second family.
21:09Genealogy websites used to be harmless retirement projects,
21:12a fun way to figure out which side of the family gave you webbed feet.
21:14It was mums.
21:16But now, thanks to a growing DNA database of people willing to give up their genetic material,
21:22you might also help uncover something unexpected.
21:25Instead of red streams, it's now DNA strands connecting the dots of blood to the suspects.
21:31Forensic genealogy can match DNA from those public databases to crime scene DNA in order to solve cold cases.
21:37One minute, it's your 8% Icelandic. Knew it. The next, it's your cousin's a serial killer.
21:44Did not knew it.
21:46In Australia, police can only access data from public opt-in genealogy websites,
21:50but in the US they can get data from companies like Ancestry and 23andMe with a warrant.
21:54It's how they nailed the infamous Golden State Killer in 2018.
22:00Joseph James D'Angelo was finally unmasked thanks to a distant relative's DNA being uploaded to a public genealogy website.
22:08Investigators built out a family tree, narrowed it down and then followed him until he left behind a used napkin.
22:14He literally wiped away his freedom.
22:16Police in Australia have their own databases which hold 1.7 million profiles, but commercial databases hold millions more.
22:26And whilst your data is private, once you've handed over that cheek swab, technically it can be searched, sold or quietly shared in future.
22:35Even if you haven't taken a test, chances are a curious relative has, and sometimes that's all it takes.
22:41One sample can generate hundreds, even thousands, of connections.
22:47And this DNA family tree is growing faster than you can say Bob's your uncle.
22:53And possibly a drug lord.
22:58Bitter.
23:00Too much Aunt Joan.
23:04DNA might feel like the endgame to us, but it's actually just a step.
23:08Danielle, what can we expect next in the world of forensics?
23:11Microbiomes.
23:13What? Isn't that in my gut?
23:15Yeah.
23:17It is actually in your gut. So human microbiomes, they're microorganisms like bacteria, fungi, viruses.
23:24They live in and on your body.
23:27In your gut, on your skin, in your mouth, in your respiratory tract, in your urogenital tract.
23:34We're talking farts, right?
23:37Do we mean farts?
23:38Is it farts?
23:39Yes.
23:40Danielle, is it farts?
23:42You do expel them all the time through your breath, your urine, your feces.
23:48And your farts.
23:50So with microbiomes, we can finally figure out who dealt it.
23:54Microbiomes, it's really in the experimental phase, okay?
23:59So there's a lot of work to be done to see whether we can actually use this or not.
24:03But there's some really cool features.
24:05So think about before when I was talking about the fingerprint,
24:07and leaving the fingerprint in the last place you stayed.
24:10And you can't date that, so you don't know when it was left.
24:13The cool thing about microbiomes is there's the potential to figure out when they were left there.
24:18By the way they multiply and mutate and things like that.
24:20But there are risks to it because, as David said, it's still in the experimental phase.
24:25We know much more about DNA than we know about microbiomes.
24:28And one of the risks is its variability, right?
24:31Microbiomes can change over time with diets, travel, illness, even if you take antibiotics.
24:39But it's really cool when you think about combining what we know from DNA with microbiomes.
24:45That's the next new thing.
24:46Earlier, Rhys and Claire tried to wipe their prints, fibres and DNA from our green room.
24:53Forensics bagged and tagged, sent it to the lab and the results are in.
24:57But who disappeared best?
24:59It's time for this week's Endgame, Wipe Right.
25:01Wipe Right.
25:08Now Rhys, do you think you were able to remove all traces of you from the green room?
25:13No, I reckon there's every chance I've absolutely scattered that place with my DNA.
25:19And do you remember the things you touched where you might have left your DNA?
25:21Hey, that's a private question.
25:24I touched the pizza and then I touched everything.
25:28Definitely touched a bottle of water at one point.
25:30I'm a touchy guy, but not in like a HR kind of way.
25:34Yeah, I touched everything.
25:36So fingerprints would be everywhere.
25:38What about you, Claire? How do you think you went?
25:40Honestly, I don't know. We met the two forensic scientists and they did seem smarter than us.
25:46Oh, yeah.
25:48I'd be pretty surprised if we outwitted them.
25:52Let's take a look.
25:54So forensics have gathered quite a few fingerprints from the scene.
25:57We've got a green powdered fingerprint taken from a glass lolly jar.
26:02The unknown fingerprint perfectly overlays with the reference fingerprint from Rhys.
26:09The best result that we obtained was from the penlib.
26:12We can see that we have a full DNA profile that suggests it's from a single source.
26:18What we would do now is compare this to the reference samples that we obtained from our suspects.
26:23And we've got a match.
26:25The donor of the DNA profile on the pen lid is most likely Rhys.
26:31Based on my comparisons, Claire has not contributed to any of the crime scene sample DNA.
26:35So this is the reference sample of Rhys.
26:40It's a really exciting one actually because what you can see here is it's coloured.
26:45Very distinctly coloured. It's got this beautiful red colour.
26:48In fact, this person loves their hair and it must be a very expensive colour job too.
26:52You can see the consistency of it, how even it is.
26:56Excellent hair colour job.
26:58Claire's reference sample is here.
26:59You can see it's got that lightish colour to it.
27:02The end of the hair, we actually have damage.
27:05And this is heat-based damage.
27:07And as you go along, it gets this kind of stringy appearance.
27:10Then it almost looks like it's melting.
27:12So in this particular case, we have three evidence samples.
27:16All of the three evidence samples are actually really nice.
27:19We have the whole length of the hair from at least the root.
27:22So looking at Rhys's hair here at the moment, because it has dyed, we can exclude it immediately.
27:29However, from the analysis, there's some unique damage within Claire's hair, which is consistent with hair too.
27:36Some would say as a match.
27:37What a thrill that I'm going to get caught for the crime, but I'm going to have the best hair in jail.
27:52I mean, he was so excited.
27:55They toned him down.
27:57Claire, how did you feel watching that?
27:59I mean, I feel a bit triggered by that myself.
28:02I just feel outraged because Rhys was the one brushing their hair for about 20 minutes.
28:10I'm like, how did I shed?
28:12Yeah, and that's why it's such good quality hair.
28:15I look after it.
28:16I'm brushing it for 20 minutes a day because I'm childless.
28:22So Rhys, the full analysis showed that your fingerprints showed up in four different places around the room.
28:27And of course, your DNA was all over that pen lid.
28:30On the other hand, Claire, you left behind no prints at all.
28:34The only thing that could tie you to the room was a single, extremely damaged hair.
28:40I'll tell you why it was damaged.
28:42Because someone had been carrying it in their pocket and they planted it all.
28:47Please give a huge thank you to our guests Rhys Nicholson and Claire Hooper.
28:50And of course, our resident experts, Professor Danielle Reynold and Dr David Bartlett.
29:02This week on Crime Night, we learned that forensic science isn't always fast, flawless or foolproof.
29:08But when it works, it can solve cold cases, free the innocent and rewrite the story entirely.
29:14Just maybe don't build your entire scientific knowledge from NCIS Sydney.
29:18I'm Julia Zemiro. Good night.
29:20APPLAUSE
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