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Crime Night! Season 1 Episode 5
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FunTranscript
00:00Welcome to Crime Night. I'm Julia Zemiro. This is the show where we take a look at the
00:25myths, motives and the psychology that drives people to commit crimes. Tonight we're looking
00:30at the power of conformity and its role in crime, the social pressure that drives otherwise
00:35sensible people to make decisions they'll come to regret. Completely unrelated, let's
00:39meet who's decided to join us tonight. Dean at Griffith University, Professor of Criminology
00:45and a genuine crime expert. When she talks, even the suspects take notes. Please welcome
00:50Professor Danielle Reynold. Danielle, how many people does crime actually affect?
00:58Crime affects everyone, Julia. That's why you should watch Crime Night so you can learn
01:02all about it. Wow. She's only been here two minutes and she's already doing some nice self-promotion.
01:07Thank you. He is a leading expert on fraud and white-collar crime and unlike the criminals
01:13he studies, his credentials are legit. It's Dr David Bartlett. David, when you're at a
01:20dinner party and people find out you're a criminologist, do they treat you differently?
01:25Sometimes people start to look really nervous. Do they? Can you give advice?
01:30Oh, I try and avoid it. Wow, what are you doing here?
01:33Joining our experts, she's a comedian and podcaster who's never met a bad idea she couldn't be talked
01:40into. It's Clare Hooper. Clare, are you here tonight under peer pressure?
01:47No, I've just come to learn how to do crimes, Julia.
01:53He is a comedian, radio host and against all professional advice, he's here representing
01:57himself. Please welcome Nick Honey.
02:01Always represent yourself. Have you done it before? Have you represented yourself in court?
02:08No, but I did legal studies year 10, so I'm good to go.
02:12When you picture a criminal, you probably imagine a lone wolf. But often crime isn't
02:17about rebellion at all. It's about belonging. Because ultimately, we just want to be accepted.
02:21Right? That's what everyone else thinks. I mean, I'm happy to be wrong. Whatever you
02:25reckon is best. Conformity has been powerful since the beginning. In prehistoric times, outsiders
02:31perished, insiders got fire and shelter. Psychologists say we read rejection as danger, and you don't
02:38have to look far to see social conformity everywhere. Standing ovations, waiting till everyone's food
02:44has arrived, and pretending we understood what that TV show Severance was all about.
02:50But what happens when that pressure pushes you to accept what's clearly wrong? That was
02:55the question posed in the 1950s by psychologist and bona fide life of the party, Solomon Asch.
03:01His now famous experiments showed just how quickly group pressure can steamroll your
03:06better judgement. The experiment you'll be taking part in today involves the perception
03:10of lengths of lines. Your task is a very simple one. You're to look at the line on the
03:14left and determine which of the three lines on the right is equal to it in length.
03:18Sorry to interrupt, but is anyone shocked that crime can be explained by a group of men
03:23alone in a room measuring lines? Sorry, carry on.
03:27Only one of the people in the group is a real subject, the fifth person with the white t-shirt.
03:32The others have been told to give wrong answers on some of the trials.
03:36The experiment begins smoothly with everyone giving the correct answer, but then it takes a turn.
03:41Two. Two. Two. Two.
03:49The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields to group influence.
03:54How does this experiment help us with our understanding of crime?
03:57So we're thinking about in terms of, say, the recent Royal Commission into Banking.
04:00Oh yeah, let's talk about the Royal Commission into Banking.
04:03Yes! I knew this was going to be fun.
04:06Yeah. Let's go.
04:07Well, some of us think this is exciting, right?
04:09No, but we remember it so clearly and it was an absolute disaster.
04:13It was. It was an unmitigated disaster.
04:15So what it showed is that there was extensive offending throughout the financial services sector.
04:19Now, when you think about it, lots and lots of people knew that this was going on,
04:22but very few actually put their hand up to say, hey, this is happening and it's wrong.
04:26Think about a new grad. So you've just finished university, you go get a job in a bank,
04:30and you go in there and you think, hang on, this is wrong.
04:33But you see everyone else doing it.
04:35So you do, you start to question your own judgement and you think, hang on, this must be the way it's done.
04:39We don't do psychology experiments like this anymore.
04:42These are so beautiful and they're so simple because they highlight just these fundamental basic social norms
04:49that we all adhere to. All of our behaviour is underpinned by these basic principles.
04:54So a third of participants conformed with the clearly wrong answers that the group provided.
05:00And that pretty much suggests that in any situation, a third of us are likely to conform
05:05even when we know what we're conforming to is wrong.
05:08Now, is it that they're conforming or just a third of people need glasses?
05:12Let's expand it out a bit. Let's think about property crime and violent crime.
05:16You can think about it like this. Sometimes you hear cases where there's groups of people,
05:20might be four or five people together, one of them decides to commit an offence
05:24and the others just go along with it. And part of this experiment helps to explain that
05:29because they're not prepared to put their hand up and say, hey, this isn't right.
05:33But there is a bit of a difference between measuring a line and crossing a line, isn't it?
05:38Because the stakes aren't that high. You'd be like, yeah, I think they're all wrong, but also, who cares? Right?
05:44But we can conform in negative ways as well. You know, a classic example is staying silent
05:49when you see something bad happening. Silence can be conformity too.
05:54We see this all the time, like on public transport and public places, where,
05:57and I'm sure lots of people have had the experience where you see something
06:00but you don't actually step in and intervene.
06:02I think of times that I've seen something like a little, you know,
06:04where you're keeping an eye on something that looks a little bit off,
06:07but you're also like, mate, I'm not the strongest person on this train.
06:11Have you ever looked around and seen all the big guys that are still sitting down?
06:14Yeah.
06:15They haven't intervened as well.
06:16Yeah, and I, um, I'm very unimpressed by this.
06:22Ash proved we'll follow the crowd even when the answer's obviously wrong.
06:26Online, the crowd just got bigger and way more persuasive.
06:30With more, here's Lou Wall.
06:32It's no secret humans love to conform.
06:35I literally love it.
06:36I love it.
06:37Yeah, I love it.
06:38Yeah, no, I don't mind it myself.
06:39Back in the analog days, it was all about getting the same haircut as everyone else
06:43or pretending to love that one show we were all talking about.
06:46How good was Friends last night?
06:48Stuff's so good.
06:50Your hair looks great.
06:51Your hair looks great.
06:53Now, conformity has had a digital glow up.
06:56Literally, it's all like share-repeat algorithms.
06:59Love it when we copy each other.
07:01It keeps us trending, even for a hot minute.
07:03Like and subscribe, guys.
07:05Who are you talking to?
07:06You know, everyone.
07:08Whether it is swallowing a spoonful of cinnamon.
07:11Pouring an ice bucket over our head.
07:17Or eating a Tide Pod.
07:19Wellness has gone too far.
07:21No!
07:22You know what happened last time.
07:24They went viral.
07:25And they went to hospital.
07:27Social media has embraced our desire to conform and amplified it.
07:31It's so easy to get caught up.
07:33One post and boom, everyone's doing it.
07:36Some of us is still paying for it.
07:38Water.
07:39I need water.
07:40But while we're all still busy planking and flossing,
07:43social media algorithms are busy feeding us the next online craze.
07:47It's like an online applause track.
07:48It keeps us coming back for more.
07:50And we do.
07:52Thank you at p slash underscore 90 99.
07:55We're all hardwired to fit in and find our community.
07:58Whether that's watching friends or sucking down some cinnamon.
08:02Online conformity is just the new frontier.
08:05Anyone for Kool-Aid?
08:06No.
08:07Being a part of something bigger than yourself feels nice.
08:14But on the spectrum from a horse riding club to a club that sells horse,
08:19when does your squad become a gang?
08:22Australians are fascinated by criminal culture.
08:24From the moment Ned Kelly put a bucket on his head,
08:26criminal cliques, gangs and underworld associations have dominated our headlines
08:31and even kept whole TV networks afloat.
08:35In the suburbs of 70s Melbourne, one such group rose to prominence.
08:39A gang so menacing, so ominous, the very sight of them struck fear into the public's heart.
08:50Okay sorry, we should have given you a warning before showing you that.
08:53The Sharpies, named after their signature sharp outfits,
08:57and I'd imagine the type of pain those jeans caused them,
09:00were a teenage subculture that exploded onto the streets of Melbourne.
09:04Predating punk, they were a uniquely Aussie movement
09:07and the conformity was strong, with their own dance, tattoos
09:10and a very precise uniform.
09:12Another important marker of the Sharps?
09:14The hair.
09:16Who cut your hair? Grant?
09:18Who cut your hair? Grant?
09:19Who cut your hair? Grant.
09:23Grant did not cut my hair.
09:25The Sharpies were a reaction to the suburban status quo.
09:28Proudly working class, they rejected the blonde surfies,
09:31the carefree hippies and the soft vibes of their mortal enemies, the mods.
09:36Were the Sharpies a gang though?
09:38The media sure thought so.
09:40At most of the discotheques and dancers,
09:42there's the danger of brawls between the Sharpies and the mods.
09:45How vicious do these fights get?
09:47They kick, when a chap goes to the ground he can be knocked out
09:49and they'll still kick.
09:50There's been already one killed, he was killed that way,
09:52he was kicked after he went to the ground.
09:55The Sharpies didn't start as a gang, they were a movement.
09:58So how did they become violent?
10:00Their version of events is that their violence was simply retaliatory.
10:03So they were actually the subject of violence themselves
10:05and their violence was just in response to that.
10:07And they were fighting over things like access to public spaces.
10:10So like the clocks at Flinders Street,
10:12they were fighting over who could have access to that space.
10:15What?
10:16It's just so...
10:19I love stuff about gangs and this does not sound like gang.
10:24I grew up in Hoppers Crossing, like mates were in gangs
10:27and I never heard any of this chat.
10:30What gangs are in your area?
10:32Well there was one in Hoppers Crossing called the HCB Boys,
10:35Hoppers Crossing Boys.
10:38They were a little bit dangerous,
10:40but that's more like machetes and guns and less.
10:45Grant cut my hair.
10:48Watch out!
10:49It was a bit of a moral panic, to be honest.
10:51So a moral panic is this exaggerated fear,
10:54usually driven by the media and to some extent public figures,
10:57around a particular group or thing being seen as a threat to society
11:00and threat to societal values.
11:02And we see moral panics all the time.
11:04If you go back 20 years, hoodies.
11:06There was moral panic around hoodies and some shopping centres
11:08even banned the wearing of hoodies in their shopping centre.
11:11Yeah, didn't have the courage to ban hoodies though, did they?
11:16Danielle, why do people feel compelled to join groups like these?
11:19You know, these types of groups really created this space
11:21where people who were marginalised could feel like they had a place
11:25where they belonged, they created a sense of community
11:28that people felt like they could belong to.
11:31The irony with these groups is that they were rebelling
11:34against societal norms only to join a group that created norms
11:39that they all had to conform to anyway.
11:41So even when we're rebelling, we're conforming.
11:43Yeah.
11:44And conformity to group standards leads to some of the most serious crime
11:47that we know about.
11:48I mean, think about the mafia and conformity.
11:51That's like a classic example of Ash's conformity studies,
11:55but on crack.
11:56You think about the characteristics of the mafia,
11:58a really strong sense of group identity.
12:00They have these really strict codes that all members have to conform to unanimously.
12:05And you think about the implications of non-conformity for that group.
12:10In the Ash study, a lot of people conformed,
12:13and the implications were feeling socially isolated
12:16and feeling socially embarrassed.
12:18Like the implications for non-conformity in groups like the mafia
12:21are way more severe.
12:23Being ostracised from your family, violence, and sometimes even death.
12:28Claire, I don't know why.
12:30I wonder that you might have been part of a gang or a group.
12:32Oh!
12:33I mean, I feel like, um, comedy's a bit of a gang.
12:37Don't you think?
12:38You know, like, cos...
12:39Cos, like, think of how worried your friends and family were when you started.
12:42Mmm.
12:43But when the money starts to roll in,
12:45they stop asking questions.
12:47It's time for our experiment of the week.
12:51They say looking up is contagious.
12:56One glance at the sky and suddenly you're worried you've missed a shooting star,
13:00a falling air conditioner, or a billionaire re-entering the atmosphere.
13:04So we thought, what happens if we start the crowd?
13:08We sent three Crime Night actors out to look up...
13:10at absolutely nothing.
13:12Will anyone else follow suit?
13:14Let's find out.
13:15MUSIC
13:18MUSIC
13:19MUSIC
13:20MUSIC
13:21MUSIC
13:22MUSIC
13:23MUSIC
13:24MUSIC
13:44If you're hearing a bit of a rumble in the room,
13:55it might be because some of you are starting to recognise our three friends.
13:58Yeah.
13:59We planted them in the foyer earlier tonight,
14:01just to see if anyone would follow their lead.
14:06It didn't take long before a few of you started to look up...
14:09MUSIC
14:13MUSIC
14:14..and shortly after...
14:15MUSIC
14:16..the conformity became contagious.
14:18MUSIC
14:19MUSIC
14:20MUSIC
14:27MUSIC
14:28Oh my God!
14:29Danielle, did this audience experiment confirm what we already know?
14:32This is based off of a classic experiment called the Street Corner Experiment.
14:36experiments.
14:37It's a classic study in conformity in showing that we definitely follow the crowd and the
14:43size of the crowd matters.
14:45David, do we follow or mimic any old person, or...?
14:48No, no.
14:49So in another street level study, researchers looked at who people follow jaywalking.
14:54So what they found is that people who appeared to be of higher status, if guys were wearing
14:58a suit and tie for example, if they jaywalked first, other people were more likely to jaywalk
15:03following them than if they were a person wearing normal street clothes.
15:06Do you think that's because someone in a suit you might look at as more risk-averse?
15:10You think they're not someone that's just going to walk out, have no idea what's going on?
15:13They're in a suit.
15:14I can't follow you now, wherever.
15:15What, do you want me to buy bitcoin?
15:18No, alright.
15:19You've got a nice jacket on.
15:21You've proved the experiment.
15:23That was our experiment of the week.
15:25Twelve strangers, one courtroom, and a decision that could change someone's life for
15:33forever.
15:34That's the power vested to a jury.
15:36Juries bring to a case their personal perspectives and their varying experiences of life, but
15:40basically they're just a potluck of people.
15:44Everyone brings something to the table and not all of it agrees with you.
15:48But when you ask strangers to reach a verdict, the pressure to go along with the group increases.
15:56And worryingly, even in a jury room, the urge to fit in can shape the outcome.
16:00Typically, juries are expected to reach a unanimous decision.
16:04In 19th century England, those who couldn't were often denied food and heat, and sometimes
16:09even paraded around in a wagon until they came to a verdict.
16:14I'm glad you all think that's hilarious.
16:17Starved, frozen and wheeled through London, the original 19th century Contiki tour.
16:23In Australia, the law forbids jurors from speaking out about their experiences, so we don't get
16:32to see what happens behind closed doors.
16:34But the SBS series, The Jury, Death on the Staircase, offers a rare glimpse.
16:39The program recreated a real-life manslaughter case using the original evidence and arguments
16:44presented in court, but with a mock jury made up of everyday Australians that we could observe.
16:50It might only be a social experiment, but the tension, very real.
16:54All the jurors, apart from Craig, want to deliver a verdict of not guilty.
16:59Can they convince him to change his mind?
17:02Previously, you said, I'm highly unlikely to change my mind, but you didn't say impossible.
17:06So what would cause you to have doubt?
17:09Nothing.
17:10So it's impossible?
17:11The only reason I'll change my mind is I want to go home.
17:14One juror held out, but in the end, it wasn't the evidence that changed his mind.
17:18It was the pressure he felt to agree with the group.
17:20OK.
17:21Yous win.
17:22He's guilty.
17:23Let's go home.
17:24I said, yous win.
17:26He's guilty.
17:27Let's go.
17:28Not guilty, sorry.
17:29I'm just angry at myself because I caved.
17:31Now, yeah, I felt like I've let a criminal go free.
17:35Yeah, absolutely.
17:36Now, that was a recreation and a mock case, but he still feels the effect of what he's
17:40done.
17:41He didn't stick to his own beliefs.
17:43Danielle, how often do juries feel pressure to reach a verdict?
17:47It's impossible to say because we're not allowed to talk to jurors.
17:50The law prohibits that.
17:51But there was one study done in Western Australia, and the study showed that 21% of jurors, real
17:57jurors who participated on juries, talked about the fact that they did feel pressure to come
18:03to a particular decision, and something like three quarters of them said that they experienced
18:08pressure from other jurors.
18:10There are quite a few studies done, particularly in the US, with mock juries, and they show
18:15that 40% of jurors reported that they felt pressure to vote against their conscience just
18:21so that they could come to a unanimous verdict.
18:24Why can't we just have, why can't we just go with a majority rule?
18:27There's 12 people in a jury.
18:28Why not?
18:29If there's just seven that agree, we can go with that.
18:31I think unanimity, like when you have 12 people on a jury who unanimously agree on a verdict,
18:37it gives people greater confidence in the verdict that's delivered.
18:40Right, so if somebody's going to get like 10 years in prison, if 12 people say they're
18:45guilty, it feels a bit icky if they get 10 years in prison because seven people said they
18:50were guilty.
18:51Is that what you're saying?
18:52Exactly.
18:53I think people have greater confidence, right?
18:55They say, hey, 12 out of 12 people, 12 people from completely different backgrounds,
18:59have sat in a room, have deliberated the facts of the case and have come to a unanimous verdict.
19:05I think people feel much more confident in that verdict.
19:08Maybe they'd feel even better if they knew those people had been carried around in a
19:12car.
19:13Deprived lunch.
19:14Starved.
19:15Yeah.
19:16How do you deal with the Craig problem?
19:18Well, we get around a couple of ways.
19:19So one is the directions that the judge gives a jury.
19:23So making that clear about what they have to deliberate and how.
19:26But the other thing is most, in fact, all Australian jurisdictions now have the ability to go for
19:32majority judgments rather than unanimous.
19:34In a majority judgment, there's sort of room for dissenters, like one or two dissenters.
19:39But there's rules around this.
19:40So, for example, in New South Wales, if a jury's deliberated for at least eight hours and the
19:45judge is satisfied that they can't reach a unanimous verdict, they can actually allow
19:50a majority verdict.
19:51So one or two people to dissent.
19:53But still, for charges of murder and treason, you still require that unanimous verdict.
19:58You could go to jail because 12 people just got tired.
20:01Some of these juries deliberate for weeks and they come back every day into that jury room
20:07to continue going through the evidence and discussing and that sort of thing.
20:10So it's not a quick process.
20:12If you think about the practicalities of it, like digging your heels in and being like,
20:16no, let's keep debating this because I don't agree with you guys.
20:19Like practically, like this takes so much time out of your real life.
20:23How many people would do that?
20:25But I'm doing it for my fellow citizens.
20:27Yeah, that's right.
20:28Tara and I are going to start a club.
20:31It's a wonderful thing to do.
20:32A little break from your everyday life.
20:34Opportunity to serve your community.
20:36Free horse and carriage ride.
20:38What's not to love?
20:40Hands up if you've ever been asked for jury duty.
20:43Oh.
20:44Oh, wow.
20:45Oh my goodness, that's so many people.
20:47And who actually got to go?
20:49Oh, you can't say.
20:50Can't say.
20:51Almost got you.
20:53Yeah.
20:54We're actually the police.
20:56Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is not conform.
21:02Especially when you know something is wrong.
21:04Remember cigarettes?
21:05Yep.
21:11There was a time when they were practically part of the food pyramid.
21:14It wasn't just common.
21:15It was cool.
21:16Parents smoked.
21:17Teachers smoked.
21:18Doctors smoked.
21:19We knew they were bad for us, but we also knew we could quit any time.
21:24They weren't addictive.
21:25Just ask seven CEOs from the world's biggest tobacco companies in 1994.
21:30I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:33I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:36And I too believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:40Seven CEOs.
21:41If you ask me, the worst of the 12 days of Christmas.
21:45In front of the world they denied the truth.
21:51Nicotine was dangerous and addictive.
21:53But it was also making them buckets of cash.
21:55It felt like the glory days of dart punching would never end until one of their own went rogue.
22:00This is whistleblower Jeffrey Weigand.
22:02Weigand was a scientist and an executive inside one of those very tobacco companies.
22:07He knew the truth, that he was working in a business built on addiction.
22:11Nicotine was not addictive.
22:13Cigarettes were not a health threat.
22:15White was not white.
22:16And I was living a lie.
22:18When he realised how far they were willing to go to keep people hooked on nicotine,
22:22Weigand gave interviews and testified in court.
22:24Like so many whistleblowers, telling the truth came at a huge personal cost.
22:28Big tobacco went for Weigand.
22:30Hard.
22:31He was fired, surveilled, smeared, sued and his family were threatened.
22:36I was not protected by any whistleblower statute and I had no recourse except the truth.
22:41Many have gone through the hellish, life-changing experience like mine.
22:46Whistleblowers like Weigand are responsible for detecting over 40% of corporate fraud in the US.
22:51That's more than audits and regulators combined.
22:54Weigand's evidence helped trigger one of the biggest legal settlements in history
22:58and millions of people quit smoking.
23:00One person swimming against the tide of conformity.
23:04Geoffrey Weigand was the straw that broke Camel's back.
23:11And for those of you under 30, Camel is a brand of cigarette.
23:19And for those under 20, cigarettes are a kind of bank.
23:25David, how important is whistleblowing?
23:27Well, whistleblowing and whistleblowers are incredibly important.
23:29Quite often the only reason that wrongdoing comes to our attention is because of whistleblowers.
23:34But these people go out on a massive limb.
23:37Quite often they're breaching non-disclosure agreements, breaching company policies.
23:41Weigand ended up getting sued by his employer because he breached a confidentiality agreement.
23:46So there's a whole lot of obstacles put in people's way to whistleblow.
23:50In Australia it's a bit cultural as well, but we don't dob.
23:53It was from little kids we were taught not to dob.
23:56And whistleblowing is still sort of thought about in terms of being dobbing.
23:59But there's a huge difference between that kind of dobbing idea in a playground and this
24:03monumental thing you might do to literally change the course of history when it comes to
24:08something like cigarettes.
24:09Yeah, absolutely.
24:10But it's so ingrained from so young that you just don't tell.
24:13Now some organisations try and overcome this, so they'll create like whistleblower hotlines
24:18where, you know, it might be like a 1-800 number that you can call them.
24:21Come on.
24:22No-one's fallen for that.
24:24Let's go straight to HR.
24:27You hope not.
24:28Yeah.
24:29But there are some strategies put in place to try and overcome it.
24:31But there's still massive obstacles to people actually whistleblowing.
24:35Now one of them is, of course, that people sometimes lose their careers.
24:39In some industries, if you whistleblow, you'll never work in that industry again.
24:44And that's why in the US, whistleblowers are actually paid.
24:47So whistleblowers will get between 10 and 30% of the amount recovered paid to them.
24:52So the Securities and Exchange Commission in the US up to about 2023 had paid out almost
24:59$2 billion to whistleblowers.
25:01I need a job in a dodgy big American company.
25:04Danielle, are some people more likely to be whistleblowers than others?
25:09There are some characteristics that define whistleblowers.
25:12High or strong moral conviction and moral courage.
25:16So an unwillingness to compromise their moral principles.
25:20High levels of self-efficacy and what we call internal locus of control,
25:25which pretty much just means that there is a high likelihood in their belief
25:29that their actions will result in an outcome.
25:32And I think the last one, which is my favorite,
25:34is that they tend to be low to moderate on what we call in psychology agreeableness,
25:38which means that they're willing to be disliked.
25:41They have no issues challenging people, even if it means that it's going to result in conflict.
25:46And that's what ASHA's conformity studies show, right?
25:49That's one of the reasons why they're so special is that one of the powerful results from those studies
25:54is that it only takes one person to dissent, one person to refuse to conform to change the tide for all the people that come after.
26:03We know this takes an incredible toll on people.
26:06So it's not just financial, it's also personal.
26:08So if you think about the woman who was one of the main whistleblowers in the Robodeck case,
26:12you know, a decade later, she's still talking about the toll that's taken on her
26:17in terms of watching herself lose her career, but then also the personal toll on her private life.
26:23If we see injustice occurring, David, Danielle,
26:27how can we give ourselves the confidence to actually speak up?
26:30We need to talk to other people.
26:31Like, if you're embedded in an organization and in a culture
26:34where something's wrong and everyone's doing it,
26:36if you're at least having that conversation with friends about,
26:39hey, this doesn't feel right, what do you think?
26:41You're sort of building that social support around yourself
26:44to actually go, you know what, I'm right.
26:46You know, this is wrong and I'm going to blow the whistle.
26:48But how many people actually do find that kind of, you know, moral courage,
26:52if that's what you want to call it?
26:53And, I mean, courage, full stop.
26:55Yeah, courage, full stop, I agree.
26:57I think that it's rare.
26:58I think that the thing that research shows is that the majority of people
27:03are perfectly happy not to intervene when they see something going wrong,
27:07but there is a minority of people, you can think of them as superheroes,
27:11who will intervene regardless of the context
27:14and regardless of the risk that it poses to them
27:17and their personal safety.
27:18Claire, what would you want to blow the whistle on?
27:20I mean, I don't like the repercussions of this, but alright.
27:26Making TV's really easy and we get paid too much.
27:30They even sent a taxi for me!
27:35Come on!
27:38You'd have to say, maybe not on ABC and SBS.
27:44Nick, what do you want to blow the whistle on?
27:46I think blokes that play golf just don't like their family.
27:56It's a waste of time and it sucks.
27:59And I'm putting an end to it.
28:00Please thank our guests Clare Hooper and Nick Cody.
28:08And of course to our resident experts, Professor Danielle Raynald
28:11and Dr David Bartlett.
28:17This week on Crimelight we found that whether it's fitting in
28:20or staying quiet, conformity can lead to everything
28:23from fraud to bad verdicts to regrettable haircuts.
28:26It's powerful, no doubt.
28:28But is it more powerful than speaking up?
28:30Hard to say.
28:31I'll probably wait and see what everyone else thinks.
28:34I'm Julia Zamiro.
28:35Good night.
28:36I salute you okay.
28:37I'll see you again.
28:38I, I love you.
28:46This is what I'm saying.
28:49Go out here, Dave.
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