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Crime Night! Season 1 Episode 6
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FunTranscript
00:00Welcome to Crime Night. I'm Julia Zamiro. Tonight we'll be picking apart alibis. The
00:26where were you, who were you with and why wasn't I invited. You could say we're alibi curious.
00:34When it comes to criminology I'm captivated but let's be honest, staying up past my bedtime
00:38binging docos doesn't make me an expert. That's why we've brought together a panel with real
00:43credentials and real insight. Let's meet them. She's an academic, Dean of Griffith University
00:48and criminology superstar. If crime were a video game she'd be the final boss. Please
00:53welcome Professor Daniel Reynolds. Daniel, how many years have you been analysing crime?
01:03Oh, since I was a uni student, so close to two decades I'd say. What did you love about
01:09it? It's the psychology of human beings, just endlessly fascinating. Yes, there's a few humans
01:13in here tonight. Our next criminologist is an expert on fraud and he's the man who knows
01:20more about white collar crime than your accountant. It's Dr David Bartlett. What are the perks
01:27of having a PhD? Do people call you doctor? Yeah, they do actually. Is that good? It's
01:32nice to be called doctor and not having a look at a rash. Sure. Our experts are joined tonight
01:38by an actor, broadcaster and co-creator of the mega hit podcast, The Imperfects. It's Ryan
01:43Shelton. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Ryan, The Imperfects is so good at getting
01:52people to open up. Have you ever considered maybe moonlighting as a detective? Yeah, I
01:59do, but I can't tell anyone. So I am a secret detective. It's a lonely life. It is, yeah.
02:05I would know, because I am one. And our second guest panellist is a comedian, actor and improviser,
02:12so she's very comfortable inventing stories in front of strangers. It's Susie Youssel.
02:16Hello. Hello. Susie, have you ever had to talk your way out of something? Oh, absolutely
02:27not. Never. No. Do you know a little bit about crime? I mean, culturally, obviously I do, but
02:33yeah, I know I'll be that kind. Alibi is Latin for elsewhere, which you would know if you
02:40went to one of those fancy schools that still teach Latin. It's taught in the same class as
02:44carpe diem, quid pro quo and that's amore. In the criminal justice system, there are two
02:50kinds of alibi. First, the gold standard, a physical alibi, which means your whereabouts
02:56are confirmed by a piece of evidence like CCTV, phone data or a 3am pizza delivery receipt
03:03that proves where you were and that you're going through some stuff.
03:07The second is known as a witness alibi, literally meaning a witness can provide testimony for
03:13you and your whereabouts, which sounds comforting until that person forgets, or they change their
03:18mind or they decide they'd rather have a prison pen pal. Danielle, how important are alibis
03:24when investigating a crime? Oh, very important. I mean, alibis can be a get-out-of-jail-free
03:30card if you're accused of a crime. But essentially, they're just claims. They're claims that people
03:35make that have to be validated and verified. We've all watched a lot of drama on TV, a lot
03:41of criminal drama. What actually happens when police investigate? Yeah, so early in the investigation
03:47process, the lead investigator will look at the preliminary evidence and they'll lead the
03:52collection of that. And then they'll form a working hypothesis about what actually happened
03:56here and identify key persons of interest that sort of fit with that hypothesis. So, for
04:00example, in Australia, women are most likely to be murdered by a current or former intimate
04:05partner. So, if a woman's murdered, all of the men that fall into that category almost
04:11automatically become persons of interest. Those that don't have a rock solid alibi, they're
04:15still in the mix to be a possible suspect. You mentioned a rock solid alibi. What does
04:19that look like? Oh, you really need to have multiple pieces of corroborating evidence. It's
04:25really difficult to establish a rock solid alibi. Much more difficult than you'd imagine.
04:30Ryan, Susie, have you ever had to use an alibi? I mean, it's kind of weird. Like, it's sort
04:34of occurred to me since being here that this would be the perfect time for one of us to be
04:40accused of a crime. Like, tonight. Imagine that. Imagine then being able to go like, I
04:45was, you're not going to believe this, I was filming a show about alibis.
04:52There is a famous Yusuf family story about a preloaded alibi. My dad, Louis Yusuf, 1969,
04:58he is in year 12. And this kid, Vincent, comes up to him, who's a bit of a troublemaker at
05:03school. And he's like, I'm having a party in August. So this is the beginning of the year, end of January,
05:07beginning of Feb. And he goes, I'm having a party in August. Do you think you can come? And
05:11my dad said, I'm so sorry. What day was it? And he said, oh, it's the 7th of August. And
05:16he goes, I actually have a family funeral that day. Wow. Let's take a deeper look at the case
05:24of Juan Catalan, who, despite having a physical and witness alibi, became the prime suspect
05:30in the 2003 murder case because of an identikit picture and also because he was the brother
05:36of a recently convicted felon. Being related to Mario was enough for Juan to be the prime
05:42suspect in Martha's murder. Their only eyewitness helped them to create an identikit picture.
05:47But his only description was of a Latino male with facial hair. Unfortunately for Juan, his
05:53only crime was having facial hair. Same Juan, same. But Juan knew where he was at the time
06:00of the murder. He was at a baseball game with his young daughter and cousin Miguel. When
06:05it came to Juan's alibi, the ticket he used wasn't accepted as proof. His cousin Miguel was
06:10seen as a biased witness and his defence was quickly running out of ways to prove he was
06:14there. So Juan's lawyers combed through hours of stadium footage. In a wildly fortunate twist,
06:20a film crew from HBO's Curb Your Enthusiasm was filming at the stadium that day. And in
06:25a TV miracle, they found Juan captured in the raw footage, walking slowly into frame with
06:30his daughter and straight into comedian Larry David's shot. This piece of vision became
06:35a critical piece of evidence, helping to prove his alibi. And who says TV doesn't change lives?
06:41David, I'll give it a round of applause.
06:45David, what does this case teach us about alibis?
06:52Probably the main thing it teaches us is that it's really hard to prove an alibi. So he
06:57was really fortunate that that video miraculously appeared, because what they did is it actually
07:01proved that he was there at the game. Unfortunately for him, it was timestamped. And he technically
07:07had enough time to get, from the time that video was taken, to get to the murder scene, commit
07:12the murder and go back. What sealed it though, was that 20 minutes before the murder, his
07:19girlfriend actually rang him. And he answered the call and the call he answered pinged off
07:24a tower at the stadium. So what that proved is that he was at the stadium 20 minutes before
07:28the murder, and therefore didn't have time to get there and actually commit that murder.
07:32So what you're saying, David, is his girlfriend is the hero of the story and women come through
07:37for men again? Is that what we heard?
07:39It probably also shows it should always answer your girlfriend's phone calls.
07:46Yeah.
07:47What's strange though is that Juan's cousin and his daughter both testified that they
07:51were at the game with him. Why weren't they believed?
07:54Witness alibis can be hugely problematic for investigators and for prosecutors, especially
08:01when they are not independent of the suspect. I think one of the critical things with kids
08:07as well is that children are easily coached. They're very impressionable. So there was also
08:12the risk that he could have coached her to say what he wanted her to say in terms of verifying
08:16his alibi.
08:17As far as going forward, good advice then for people generally is to have no family
08:22or friends. So if something bad happens, you can guarantee that your alibi will not be
08:26a family member or a friend.
08:28Is the big kind of lesson like, don't murder?
08:32That should be the number one lesson, yeah.
08:35Number one lesson. What would make an alibi witness unreliable?
08:39Oh, so many things. If they have a criminal history, a history of drug habits, change their
08:46injuries beforehand.
08:47Even little inconsistencies in a story can really impact the way that a witness's statement
08:53is viewed.
08:54Juan had this really solid alibi. Why did the police continue to pursue the case?
08:58So it was a case pretty much of tunnel vision. So it comes back to that working hypothesis
09:02that I was talking about earlier.
09:03You did mention that earlier and I just wanted to say, is working hypothesis and tunnel vision
09:08also code for racial profiling?
09:11Not necessarily, no.
09:14But sometimes maybe?
09:16Potentially.
09:17Okay.
09:18Interesting.
09:19So in this particular case, he's Latino, but one of the police officers was also Latino.
09:24What happened was that the police had formed this really early stage working hypothesis
09:28that he was guilty. And the reason is that the murder victim had given evidence against
09:33Juan's brother in court. So their working hypothesis was that Juan had killed her in revenge
09:38for giving evidence against his brother.
09:40At what point though, because the prosecuting lawyer in that case, does she get to a point
09:45where she's like, I don't think, I don't think he's guilty. Does she then have to keep fighting
09:51to prosecute him even though she in herself believes that maybe he's probably not guilty?
09:56Well, I think she probably had the option to go back to the police and say, hey, I'm not satisfied here.
10:00Does that happen?
10:01It does sometimes.
10:02It does sometimes. But it also didn't help that Juan had a criminal history. Speaking
10:07of that tunnel vision, there are so many factors that make police themselves bias in their decision
10:13making. And I think that he had a criminal history, his brother was part of a gang, his
10:18brother was part of that trial.
10:20He had a mustache.
10:21He had facial hair.
10:22What happened to Juan in the end? What was the outcome?
10:27Luckily for him, all that corroborating evidence came together and the judge dismissed the case
10:32on the basis that he just clearly wasn't there.
10:35Do you think that the prosecutor would say that he was the Juan who got away?
10:43Come on.
10:44It was good. Come on.
10:46Do you think someone else would then, after hearing that, say that it was Juan in a million?
10:51Is that possible?
10:54And welcome to pun night.
10:58With all this talk of alibis, we wanted to test just how difficult it is for our panellists
11:02to remember exactly where they were at a specific time and date.
11:06To test this theory, we have secretly asked your partners, Susie and Ryan, to document where
11:11you both were on one day over the last few months.
11:14And this is real. This isn't a joke. This really happened to their lives.
11:16Do you mean one day?
11:19I think I do.
11:20Just making sure the joke doesn't get cut. Cool.
11:26Let's see if they can provide us with an alibi in our experiment of the week.
11:31Susie, let's say a crime has been committed.
11:40I did it.
11:42It's just easier. I just did it.
11:46Get it out. You are now the prime suspect.
11:48I did not do it.
11:49You have to remember.
11:50To prove your innocence, you have to provide an alibi and remember where you were.
11:54What's your memory like in general?
11:55Genuinely, my memory is full of movie quotes from the late 90s.
12:00And some of the late 80s.
12:02May I have one?
12:03Sure.
12:04Beaches?
12:05No problem.
12:06I'm living how I set out to do.
12:08Remember?
12:09I'm living how you didn't have the courage for.
12:10So don't give me your nut jealous.
12:11You're so jealous you can hardly breathe.
12:13There's more. There's more what I came from.
12:18We have captured you and we've captured a time.
12:21The date in question is Tuesday the 5th of August.
12:25Yep.
12:26The time? 7.25am.
12:28Where might you be do you think?
12:30I would usually be on a walk.
12:32Lovely.
12:33Or in bed.
12:35Or having breakfast.
12:37Well, some new evidence has come to light.
12:39We now know where you were walking at 7.15am.
12:42OK.
12:43Oh, you're on a walk.
12:44No, I'm not.
12:45No, I'm not.
12:46Because that footwear is not my walking footwear.
12:48No.
12:49I know where that is.
12:50That's on the same block as two of my favourite cafes in Hobart.
12:57Mm-hmm.
12:58Shout out.
12:59Sure business is not going to go through the route.
13:04Look, I think I would have been in a cafe.
13:07Well, let's have a look.
13:09That is correct.
13:11Oh.
13:12Alright.
13:13You were at a cafe on Criterion Street, Hobart.
13:17Yes.
13:18Eating breakfast.
13:19Do you remember what you ate?
13:20I am so boring when it comes to breakfast, so I know exactly what I ate.
13:23I would have had two pieces of gluten free toast, two fried eggs and some avocado on the side.
13:28You're absolutely on the money.
13:29You're absolutely on the money.
13:30That is absolutely right.
13:31Wow.
13:32Oh my gosh.
13:33Yeah.
13:34Can I just make a phone call?
13:35I just need to break up with someone.
13:36No, no, no.
13:37I've got to say, I never thought all those photos would come in handy.
13:43That is an excellent alibi and you are free to go.
13:47That is an excellent alibi and you are free to go.
13:50Free to go.
13:51Brian, it's your turn in the hot seat.
13:53I was at an L.A. Dodgers game.
13:54What's your memory like?
13:55Oh, terrible.
13:56Wow.
13:57Really, really, really bad.
13:58Really bad.
13:59What about your movie quotes?
14:00I know one from Beaches, but other than that.
14:01Okay, well I'll say to you that your date in question is Saturday the 19th of July.
14:16At 8.50am, do you remember where you were?
14:21No.
14:22No.
14:23No, well I know I was, well, okay, so I was away.
14:26I was on holiday.
14:27Mm.
14:2819th of July, I would have been in 19th of July, I think I was in Vienna.
14:36That's a long way away.
14:37Yeah, but you can just get a plane.
14:39Oh.
14:40Well this could jog your memory.
14:45It's a video of you just before then.
14:47Oh.
14:48Oh.
14:49Oh.
14:50Okay.
14:51I think I know what that is.
14:52I think that was.
14:53If you had to tell me your alibi.
14:55I was sitting on a bench waiting for the Spanish horses to come out and stretch their legs.
15:02Um, but then they didn't.
15:04So we waited for a while and then left.
15:07Well, Ryan, you're absolutely right.
15:11That's what you're doing.
15:13At 8.50 that morning you were in Burgarten Park, Vienna waiting for the arrival of some Spanish horses.
15:20I'm so hungry.
15:21I could eat a Spanish horse.
15:29Can you imagine how sick of me my girlfriend is?
15:33Wow, well you were correct and that means you are free to go.
15:36Well done.
15:37Excellent.
15:40I think you both did exceptionally well.
15:43What I really love about this is the process you went through.
15:45So, most people are creatures of habit and you just showed that beautifully.
15:49Because you did that really simple thing of, okay, at that time of day, normally on a Tuesday, I'd be walking or I'd be doing this.
15:54And it's this process of deduction you got to.
15:57And the fact that you had the same thing for breakfast just makes it really, really easy.
16:01But with you, Ryan, I think what was fascinating was the fact that that's quite memorable, being away on holiday.
16:06So you almost, you do that really quick process of, okay, those dates, I was away.
16:11And then once Julie sort of gave you a bit more information, you sort of narrowed it down really tightly.
16:16Some people get confused.
16:18Yeah.
16:19David, why are they called Spanish horses?
16:23I'm a criminologist, not a vet.
16:25I don't know.
16:27I think one of the things that was really cool and interesting with both of you as well is that you've got cues.
16:33The photos and the videos and the cues actually help jog your memory.
16:37You wouldn't have done it without me.
16:39Please thank Ryan and Susie.
16:48You might think you've got an airtight alibi, but it's only useful if people actually believe it.
16:53Studies show that we don't judge alibis based on facts as much as on feels.
16:58We've heard alibis backed by strangers are often seen as more credible than ones from your own family.
17:04David, why do juries trust strangers more than the people closest to us?
17:08Juries think rightly or wrongly that family, friends have a motive to lie, to protect their family member or their friend.
17:17Whereas a complete stranger just doesn't have that motive.
17:19And they're probably going to be a lot less inclined to put their own neck on the line to protect someone they don't know.
17:24I went on a family holiday once and there was a theft.
17:29Like we were at a resort and there was a theft and they blamed a guy that I was actually hooking up with.
17:35So he was a stranger.
17:37And I had to say, no, sorry, this is dirty dancing.
17:39Sorry.
17:40So one of the things that we know is that juries tend to believe alibis that are full of salacious details like a secret rendezvous or embarrassing personal details.
17:59They tend to believe those much more readily than they believe an alibi that's a mundane, regular routine activity like I was out walking the dog.
18:08Sometimes you can have a rock solid alibi, but you're just not a believable person.
18:13Take John Killick, a career criminal who was convicted of an armed bank robbery in Adelaide in 1978, despite the fact that he was on parole and reporting to a police station in New South Wales at the time of the crime.
18:25This is known as a perfect alibi case.
18:27I signed a bailed car at eight o'clock at Chatswood.
18:30When the robbery occurred in Adelaide, the only plane out of there landed at Mascot and turned off its engines at three minutes past eight.
18:37How am I going to get to Chatswood at eight?
18:39But even with a police assisted alibi, the jury still found him guilty.
18:43Years later, someone else confessed and it turned out Killick had been framed.
18:47So your mum's no help with your alibi and if you're a career criminal, neither is being supervised by the New South Wales police.
18:52Of course, not all alibis come with a police escort. Some are more creatively sourced. With more, here's Lou Wall.
19:07Have you been a little naughty?
19:09Do you need an alibi?
19:10Well, now you can buy one.
19:12Welcome to the morally dubious, legally contentious and yet thriving industry of alibi agencies.
19:18Sometimes known as life-for-hire networks, these are real businesses that sell fake stories. It's like professional gaslighting.
19:25I know so many people who'd be great at this job.
19:28They rose to prominence in the 90s in Japan and now operate all over the world.
19:35An agency in Germany claims to have more than 2,700 freelance actors there to help you lie your way out of nearly anything.
19:43Services start at a low, guilt-ridden $300 and include fake doctor's notes, business trips, meetings, conferences, Zoom calls, wedding invites, fake entire weddings with fake guests and menus with meat-free options for your fake vegan cousin.
19:58Fake funeral notices, restaurant bills, hotel bookings, fake calls from your boss, texts from your mum, fake co-workers, job references, romantic partners for your high school reunion and LinkedIn profiles for jobs you've never had in industries that don't exist.
20:10You can even rent a funeral guest if you want to take a date to your nan's funeral without the baggage.
20:17Too much?
20:18While some clients use these services for affairs or chucking a sickie, false alibis live in a legal grey area.
20:25To get around that, agencies often slap on disclaimers like, for entertainment purposes only.
20:29But if you think that is ethically murky, think again.
20:32Because this agency insists we don't burden ourselves with ethical concerns.
20:37And why would they?
20:38When, and I quote,
20:40lying can avoid problems and develop into a form of kindness.
20:44Stunning stuff.
20:45Whoever said the truth can set you free is cancelled.
20:48For me at 300 bucks, a well-crafted alibi can get you out of almost anything.
20:53But if anybody asks, you didn't hear this from me.
20:56I was at a dentist appointment in Belgium.
20:59With my mum.
21:00Who is dead.
21:01Done.
21:02Danielle, are these alibi companies for real?
21:08Because that's freaking me out.
21:10They are definitely for real.
21:12And they are shockingly thriving.
21:15I just think that this is so fascinating.
21:17I mean, we know that people lie about their alibis.
21:20We know that people ask other people to lie to corroborate their alibis.
21:25But this is just next level.
21:27Like, these companies are fabricating physical evidence.
21:30They're fabricating digital evidence with the express purpose of developing a false alibi.
21:37God.
21:38For money.
21:39Are they hiring?
21:41But isn't lying about an alibi illegal, David?
21:45It certainly can be.
21:46So, if you provide an alibi under oath, and it's knowingly false, that's perjury.
21:51So, we see this a little bit with traffic infringement notices.
21:53Like the camera detected ones where you can nominate someone else as the driver.
21:56We probably all know someone who's taken the points and paid the fine for someone else, right?
22:01That actually, if you fill out that stat deck, that's actually perjury.
22:06And there's lots of cases that have been publicised in the last little while,
22:10including one of a retired federal court judge who nominated a dead friend as the driver of his car.
22:15Rookie error.
22:16Ultimately spent two years in prison for perjury to get out of a $77 speeding fine.
22:23Do you think they came down a bit harder on him because he'd been a judge?
22:26There's no doubt.
22:27No doubt. Well, note to self.
22:28Doing something boring like sitting on the couch used to be almost impossible to prove.
22:33But now, thanks to wearable tech like smart watches, Fitbits and health monitors tracking our every move,
22:39our lazy night in can either confirm our alibi or land us in jail.
22:44It looks like you're digging a shallow grave. Did you want to record this workout?
22:48But hey, go easy on yourself.
22:51Sometimes not hitting 10,000 steps is exactly what proves you weren't fleeing a crime scene.
22:56In 2016, a Wisconsin man was charged with murder.
23:00He claimed he was at home all night, just moving between his bed and his baby's room.
23:05Saying you were home alone with a sleeping baby is pretty weak in terms of alibis.
23:10The baby can't even support her own neck, let alone her dad's story.
23:14Luckily for him, there was one witness with an unimpeachable memory.
23:19We went back and looked at the videos and we had noticed that Mr. Deitchi was wearing his Fitbit
23:23the day that we interviewed him at the house.
23:24There was a short amount of steps recorded in the middle of the night and then after that there was another period where there was no movement recorded.
23:33There was no way he would have gotten up in the middle of the night, went out into the front yard, committed a brutal murder, drove a couple miles away and then came back home.
23:43His Fitbit recorded just a handful of steps during the time of the crime.
23:46Danielle, should we be relying on our technology to get us out of a jam?
23:51When you think about the range of devices that most of us use, we use laptops, we use our smart washes, we use our smart phones, etc.
24:00If you think about all of the data points that we can glean off of all of these devices, we can triangulate that data and create a pretty clear picture about what our daily movements and activities are.
24:12So yes, 100% I think tech can definitely help corroborate our alibis, but the flip side is also true. Tech can also disprove our alibis.
24:23David, is this kind of information requested by authorities much?
24:27Increasingly, yes. So telecommunications data is one of the very first pieces of information that law enforcement agencies seek in an investigation.
24:35And there's hundreds of thousands of information requests made to telcos every year.
24:40We all assume that we've got mobile phones, we all assume that we've got sort of things that track us, but not everyone does have that.
24:47So if you're one of those people that doesn't have a mobile phone, doesn't have a Fitbit and so on, when it comes to proving where you were or where you weren't, you might have a bit of a harder case than someone who's got that technology.
24:57Do you think it would ever get to the point where, because all the devices are listening, that if they heard what sounded like a crime, that they could call the police, that it sounded like there was a murder near this watch?
25:11There has actually been cases of this.
25:13Already?
25:14Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:15Where smart speakers have heard what they think's a crime going on and actually dialled the police.
25:20Yeah. That's amazing.
25:22Tonight we examine the difference between a good alibi and a bad alibi, but there's a secret third category.
25:27Alibis so bizarre, so wildly plausible, that just saying them out loud makes you look guilty.
25:33It's time for this week's endgame.
25:35Two untruths and an alibi.
25:37We're going to show our panel suspects from real life cases and ask them to guess which alibi they gave the police.
25:51You'll have three options to choose from.
25:53One is the genuine alibi the suspect came up with and two are fake alibis we came up with.
25:58Ryan and Danielle.
26:00In 2023, a man was pulled over by police and arrested for speeding.
26:03The man said he was innocent because a his five-year-old son was at the wheel.
26:10B his dog was actually the driver.
26:14Or C his car was driving itself.
26:17Well, my immediate question would be what breed of dog?
26:22Like a physical thing of the foot being able to reach the pedal.
26:26Which makes me think that the dog is maybe out of play for that reason.
26:30But then with the son, that's still an illegal act.
26:34Yeah, that's right. That's a good point.
26:36So it's actually a terrible...
26:38So it's a terrible alibi, so we can eliminate that one.
26:40So by process of elimination, we will go with C.
26:43We're locking in C, Julia.
26:45Excellent. The correct answer is B. His dog was actually...
26:48Well, because crucial part of information, it was in America.
26:53The man tried to swap places with his dog, who was beside him in the passenger seat before running away from the vehicle.
27:03Don't worry, the dog wasn't speeding, but was found guilty on one count of being a very bad boy.
27:10David, Susie.
27:12In 2006, Stephen Jacob was on trial for robbing a convenience store, but he maintained that he was innocent because
27:19A. He was out to dinner with his dad while his twin brother committed the crime.
27:24B. He was stuck in a public restroom for hours with food poisoning.
27:28Or C. He was busy robbing another store on the other side of the town.
27:32I'm sus on C, because that's a crime also.
27:37Can I tell you, some offenders aren't real bright.
27:39Years ago when I worked in courts, there was a guy who reported his backpack stolen.
27:43But it was full of weed.
27:45So then she has the possession of weed.
27:47Like, not to show off, but I am a sufferer of IBS.
27:50I can empathise with B.
27:52Let's run with B because...
27:54I'm going to sympathise with your situation.
27:57With my situation. Thank you so much.
27:58IBS is a real issue.
28:02And we should be talking about it more. Thank you, David.
28:04I'm Syria. I get it.
28:06Oh my God.
28:08This is lovely, isn't it?
28:10I think B.
28:11That's lovely. I love that you've got a bond, but you're wrong.
28:14The correct answer is A.
28:17Stephen claimed his twin brother committed the crime while Stephen was out to dinner with his dad.
28:21It turns out Stephen doesn't have a twin brother.
28:23And he represented himself in court.
28:28God bless.
28:30Please thank our wonderful guests Ryan Shelton and Susie Youssef.
28:33And of course to our resident experts Professor Danielle Reynolds and Dr David Bartlett.
28:41This week we unpick the tapestries of truth, lies and alibis at the heart of criminal investigations.
28:53But most importantly there are literally hundreds of people in this studio who can prove I was here.
28:58If you're watching this show alone, at home, while your Fitbit's on charge, well, good luck in court.
29:04I'm Julie Zemiro. Good night.
29:06Good night.
29:08Good night.
29:12Good night.
29:14Good night.
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