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Tv, Yes Minister - S03E02 - The Challenge
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00:00Satsang with Mooji
00:30And the main news this Thursday p.m. is the big government reshuffle.
00:47And I have with me in the studio to discuss his new empire,
00:50the Minister for Administrative Affairs,
00:52the Right Honourable James Hacker, MP.
00:54It's been said, Mr Hacker, that you are now Mr Townhall as well as Mr Whitehall.
01:00Well, it's very flattering of you to put it that way, Lula.
01:03Well, it wasn't me who put it that way, Mr Hacker.
01:05It was the Daily Mirror.
01:08But I just wanted to confirm that you are now this country's chief bureaucrat.
01:13Of course, that's nonsense.
01:15This government believes in reducing bureaucracy.
01:17Well, figures I have here say that your department staff has risen by 10%.
01:22No, certainly not.
01:23Well, what figure do you have?
01:24I believe the figure is much more like 9.97.
01:28Well, you see, it has been suggested, Mr Hacker,
01:32that your department is less interested in reducing bureaucracy than in increasing it.
01:36Well, yes.
01:38But that's because we've had to take on more staff in order to reduce staff.
01:44I beg your pardon?
01:45Well, it's common sense.
01:46We have to take on more doctors to cure more patients,
01:49more firemen to extinguish more fires.
01:51Well, how do you propose to extinguish local government bureaucracy?
01:55Well, it's a challenge, and I'm looking forward to it.
01:57But would you agree that there's even more bureaucratic waste there than there is in Whitehall?
02:02Well, yes, that's what makes it a challenge.
02:04How are you going to meet the challenge?
02:06Ah, it's far too early to give detailed proposals.
02:08After all, I've just come here direct from number 10.
02:11From number 9.97, then.
02:13But the broad strategy is to cut ruthlessly at waste while leaving essential services intact.
02:22Well, that's what your predecessor said.
02:24Are you saying that he failed?
02:26Please, let me finish, because we must be absolutely clear about this,
02:31and I want to be quite frank with you.
02:32The plain fact of the matter is that at the end of the day,
02:37it is the right, or no, the duty of the elected government in the House of Commons
02:41to ensure that government policy, the policies on which we were elected
02:46and for which we have a mandate, the policies, after all, for which the people voted,
02:51are the policies which, finally, when the national cake has been divided up,
02:56and may I remind you, we as a nation don't have unlimited wealth,
03:02although we can't pay ourselves more than we've earned,
03:05are the policies...
03:07I'm sorry, what was the question again?
03:14I was just asking you, Mr Hacker, whether you would agree that your predecessor had failed.
03:20Oh, sir, no, on the contrary.
03:22It's just that this job is an enormous...
03:26Challenge?
03:26Exactly.
03:31Incidentally, I heard your chap on the radio yesterday, Humphrey.
03:36Hmm.
03:37Hmm.
03:39He sounded as if he wanted to do things about your new local government remit.
03:44He kept calling it a challenge.
03:47Congratulations, Humphrey.
03:48Oh, very kindly, thank you.
03:49You'll soon be even more important than Arnold here.
03:51Yes, I expect...
03:52No, no, no, no, no, no.
03:54I do want to be quite clear about this, Humphrey.
03:58I would never have given you local government if I thought you were going to let Hacker do anything about it.
04:02Well, I'm sure you won't be able to.
04:04Nobody else has.
04:06That's not the point, Humphrey.
04:07We've found in the past that all local government reforms rebound on us.
04:12Whenever anybody finds a way of saving money or cutting staff in local government, you'll find it works for Whitehall just as well.
04:19Yes, but local government is extravagant, overstaffed and incompetent, whereas we...
04:24Exactly so.
04:28I know my duty, Arnold.
04:30And if he does need something to keep him busy, you know what to do?
04:34Hmm?
04:35Get him to look into civil defence.
04:39Civil defence?
04:41You mean fallout shelters?
04:42Yes.
04:43Governments long ago decided that civil defence was not a serious issue.
04:47Oh, merely a desperate one.
04:50And is therefore best left to those whose incompetence can be relied upon?
04:54Local authorities.
04:58But the highest duty of government is to protect its citizens.
05:02Presumably that's why they leave it to the borough councils.
05:12Thank you, General.
05:13Minister, may I have a brief word?
05:18It's about a proposal I worked out before we were transferred to this department.
05:21And you are...
05:22I am...
05:24What?
05:25Yes, you are...
05:26What?
05:28What?
05:30What?
05:32I am Dr Cartwright.
05:34But if I may put it another way, Minister, what are you?
05:37I'm a C of A.
05:43No, I think the Minister means what function do you perform in the department.
05:47Don't you know?
05:48Yes, I know, but the Minister wants to know.
05:51I'm a professional economist.
05:53Director of local administration statistics.
05:56Oh, and you were running the local authority directorate before we took it over?
05:59Dear me, no.
06:00Sir Gordon Reid was the permanent secretary.
06:03I'm just under secretary rank.
06:05I fear I shall rise no higher.
06:07Oh, why not?
06:08Alas, I'm an expert.
06:12On what?
06:13On the whole thing.
06:15It's all in here.
06:17What's this all about?
06:18Controlling council expenditure.
06:19I'm proposing that all council officials responsible for a new project would have to list their criteria for failure before they were given the go-ahead.
06:29What do you mean?
06:31It's a basic scientific approach.
06:34You must first establish a method of measuring the success or failure of an experiment.
06:39Then, when it's completed, you can tell whether it succeeded.
06:42Or failed.
06:42A proposal would have to state this scheme would be a failure if it lasts longer than this, or costs more than that, if it employs more staff than these, or fails to meet these pre-set performance standards.
06:55That's fantastic.
06:56But you could never make it work.
06:58Of course you can.
06:59It's all in there.
07:01Bernard, this is my top priority reading for the weekend.
07:04Why hasn't it been done before?
07:05I can't understand.
07:06I put it up several times and it was always welcome most warmly, but Sir Gordon always seemed to have something more urgent on women with you to discuss it.
07:14Well, you've come to the right place this time.
07:15Thank you very much indeed.
07:17Thank you, Minister.
07:24This is marvellous.
07:26Isn't it, Bernard?
07:29Isn't it, Bernard?
07:31Oh, yes.
07:32Well, it's, er, er, that is, it's, er, it's very well presented, Minister.
07:37Sir Humphrey will be fascinated, don't you think?
07:39Well, he's on his way here now.
07:41I'm sure he'll give his views.
07:43What are you saying, Bernard?
07:44Yes, well, as I say, I think that he'll think that it's beautifully typed.
07:51Ah, Minister.
07:53Ah, Humphrey.
07:54Come in.
07:55Sit down.
07:56Thank you, Minister.
07:57Now, local authorities, what are we going to do?
08:01Minister, this new remit gives you more influence, more cabinet seniority, but you do not let it have to give you any more work or worry.
08:10That would be foolishness.
08:11Look, Humphrey, we've got to stop this appalling waste and extravagance that's going on.
08:16Why?
08:19Yes, why?
08:20Well, it's my job.
08:23With the government, we were elected to govern.
08:26Oh, really, Minister?
08:29But surely you don't intend to tamper with the democratic rights of freely elected local government representatives.
08:36Well, no, of course not.
08:39Local government isn't democratic.
08:41Local democracy is a farce.
08:43And the vast majority of people don't even know how their councillor is.
08:47And they never vote in a local election.
08:49And those who do simply regard it as a popularity poll for the government here in Westminster.
08:53Local councillors, in practice, are accountable to nobody.
08:56They're public-spirited citizens, selflessly sacrificing their spare time.
09:00Have you ever met any?
09:02Occasionally, when there was no alternative.
09:03Half of them are self-centred busybodies on an air-go trip, and the other half are in it for what they can get out of it.
09:10Perhaps they ought to be in the House of Commons.
09:14I mean, to see how a proper Legislative Assembly behaves.
09:18Anyhow, I'm going to get a grip on them.
09:21I have a plan.
09:22You have a plan?
09:25Yes.
09:25I'm going to insist that any local official who puts up a plan costing more than, say, £10,000,
09:34must accompany it with failure standards.
09:37With what?
09:38With a statement saying that he will have failed if his project does not achieve certain pre-set results,
09:46or, if he's fixed time or staff or budget.
09:52Minister, where did you get the idea for this dangerous nonsense?
09:55From someone in the department?
09:58Minister, I have warned you before about the dangers of speaking to people in the department.
10:04I implore you to stay out of the minefield of local government.
10:08It is a political graveyard.
10:10But, excuse me, Sir Humphrey, you cannot have a graveyard in a minefield.
10:14Because all the corpses would...
10:16But you got me this job, you said.
10:23Yes, but I didn't expect you to do anything.
10:25I mean, you've never done anything before.
10:29Griff, I am deaf to your complaints.
10:31No, ma'am, please, I beg you.
10:33No, no, no, no, no, no, Humphrey.
10:35I want specific proposals, straight away, and immediate plans for their implementation by local government.
10:41I don't know why you're in such a fuss about it, anyway.
10:43I'm only proposing failure standards for local government, not here in Whitehall.
10:47Though, come to think of it.
10:51If you insist on interfering in local government, may I make a suggestion that could prove a very real vote-winner?
10:57Humphrey, I want to hear no more about it.
11:03Vote-winner?
11:04An area of local government that needs urgent attention.
11:08What?
11:09Civil defence.
11:12You mean fall-out shelters?
11:15Surely they're just a joke.
11:17Precisely, Minister. At the moment, they are a joke.
11:19Local authorities are dragging their feet.
11:21But, the highest duty of any government is to protect its citizens.
11:26Some people think that the building of shelters makes nuclear war more likely.
11:30Well, if you have the weapons, you must have the shelters.
11:33Sometimes I wonder why we need the weapons.
11:36Minister, you're not a unilateralist.
11:40Sometimes I wonder, you know.
11:42Well, then you must resign from the government.
11:45Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no.
11:48I'm not that unilateralist.
11:50The Americans will always protect us from the Russians, won't they?
11:54Russians? Who's talking about the Russians?
11:56Well, the independent deterrent.
11:58It's to protect us against the French.
12:06That's astounding.
12:08Why?
12:08Well, they're our allies, our partners.
12:10Well, they are now.
12:12But they've been our enemies for most of the past 900 years.
12:15If they got the bomb, we must have the bomb.
12:17Oh, well, if it's for the French, of course, that's different.
12:23It makes a lot of sense.
12:24Yes, can't trust the frogs.
12:26Oh, say that again.
12:28Of course, there is increasing public concern about the bomb.
12:31If I were to be seen to be doing something about it, yes, I see what you mean.
12:37And Ludovic Kennedy is preparing a BBC documentary on civil defence, which is likely to be critical of the current situation.
12:44But if you were seen to be taking decisive measures...
12:47Quite, yes.
12:49I always handle Ludo so frightfully well.
12:55Yes, right.
12:55Well, where do we start?
12:57Well, Minister, Justice Schurston,
12:59the London borough of Thames Marsh
13:01has spent less on civil defence than any authority in the country.
13:04Gee, what a ministerial visit, you think?
13:07Isn't that Ben Stanley's borough, Minister?
13:09The one with the wispy moustache?
13:10The one the press all hate?
13:11Good point, Bernard.
13:13Get on to it straight away.
13:14And get Bill to make sure that the press knows all about this visit.
13:18Tell them I lie awake at night
13:21worrying about the defenceless citizens of Thames Marsh.
13:26Do you, Minister?
13:30Well, I will now.
13:39Look, mate.
13:40What makes you think you can come swanning down here from Whitehall
13:43and tell us how to run our borough?
13:46I'm not swanning down from Whitehall.
13:48I'm simply asking you why you have done less than any other borough in Great Britain
13:52to protect the people who elected you.
13:55Simple.
13:55We can't find the money.
13:57Why don't you try looking for it?
14:00Oh, that's great.
14:02Stop school meals, buy no textbooks,
14:04turn the OAPs out into the cold.
14:06I can tell you exactly where you can find it.
14:08You can?
14:08Yes.
14:10Tell him, Dr Cartwright.
14:15Well, you can scrap the plans for the new exhibition centre
14:18with the artificial ski slope and jacuzzi pool.
14:21You can close the feminist drama centre,
14:24the council's weekly newspaper and monthly magazine
14:26and the welfare rights research department.
14:29You can halve the members and management entertainment's allowance,
14:32sell the mayor's second Daimler,
14:34expose the building of the new town hall
14:36and cancel the 20 councillors' tourism fact-finding mission to Jamaica.
14:40That'll save 21 millions on capital account over five years
14:54and 750,000 a year on revenue account.
14:56Revenue account.
14:57That's just stupid.
15:01Why?
15:02Well, it's depriving the disadvantaged of indispensable services.
15:07Jacuzzi pools.
15:07Look, I don't care if we can afford a fallout shelter.
15:12This is a unilaterous borough.
15:14We do not believe in nuclear war in Thames Marsh.
15:16Mr Stanley, I don't believe in nuclear war either,
15:18but the provision of fallout shelters is government policy.
15:21It is not Thames Marsh policy.
15:23Thames Marsh has no quarrel with the USSR.
15:26Oh, it's not just the USSR we're frightened of.
15:29It could be the fri...
15:30The who?
15:35The frigging Chinese.
15:41And if the Russians do invade us,
15:43I suppose they'll stop at the borough boundaries and say,
15:45hold on, we're not at war with the London borough of Thames Marsh.
15:48White wheel comrades, let's annex Chelsea instead.
15:51Excuse me, Minister.
15:52Yes, brother.
15:53I think you may be interested in...
15:57Oh.
15:58Mr Stanley,
15:59it appears that you would not be called upon
16:02to make the supreme sacrifice in any case.
16:04What do you mean?
16:05I understand that there is a fallout shelter here under the town hall.
16:10Well, is there?
16:12We didn't build it.
16:14But you maintain it.
16:16It's only a very small one.
16:18And there is a place reserved in it for yourself.
16:21I was persuaded, with deep reluctance,
16:23that my preservation was a necessity
16:25in the interest of the ratepayers of Thames Marsh.
16:30What provision have you made for other essential persons,
16:33doctors, nurses, ambulancemen, firemen,
16:36people who might be almost as important as counsellors?
16:40One of them's a chemist.
16:42Great.
16:43Nothing like aspirin for the nuclear holocaust.
16:48Your chap had quite a little publicity triumph down at Thames Marsh, didn't he?
16:53Oh, yes.
16:54Tremendous.
16:55You don't sound appropriately happy for him, Humphrey.
16:58Well, the trouble is, he thinks he's achieved something.
17:01Splendid.
17:02Life is so much easier when ministers think they've achieved something.
17:06It's got some fretting.
17:08No little temper tantrum.
17:09Yes, but now he wants to introduce his next idea.
17:13A minister with two ideas?
17:14I can't remember when we...
17:15Oh, it's not his own.
17:22He wants to introduce pre-set failure standards
17:25on all council contracts over £10,000
17:27and make a named official responsible.
17:30Humphrey.
17:30I know, I know.
17:31That idiot scheme of cartwrights again.
17:34I thought Gordon had squashed it.
17:35Well, he's come over to us now
17:37and slipped the scheme to the minister privately
17:39under plain cover, brown enveloped on.
17:42You realise it'll be us next.
17:44I mean, once you specify in advance
17:46what a project's supposed to achieve
17:47and whose responsibility it is to see that it does,
17:50well, the entire system collapses.
17:52You're into the whole squalid world of professional management.
17:56I know.
17:57I've tried to explain to him,
17:59I've tried to point out to him
18:00that his new responsibilities were for enjoying,
18:03not exercising, but I don't know.
18:05We already move our officials around
18:07every two or three years
18:08to stop this personal responsibility nonsense.
18:11If this happened,
18:12we'd be posting everybody once a fortnight.
18:14I know.
18:15He must be stopped.
18:17What's his next little publicity trip?
18:19Well, tomorrow he's living his little triumph over again.
18:24He's recording a TV interview with Ludovic Kennedy,
18:27a documentary on civil defence.
18:29Supposing he had a dossier
18:32on the curious ways in which local councillors
18:36spend their civil defence budgets.
18:39How would that help?
18:40I've got an idea.
18:42Well, perhaps you ought to become a minister.
18:43That was just a joke, I mean.
18:52Down by studio.
18:53We're about to record.
18:55Quite a change, Mr Kennedy,
18:56for a minister to be given a chance
18:57to talk about something that's a success.
19:00Most unusual for the BBC.
19:01Five, four, three...
19:02Is this a change of policy?
19:04Three, two, one...
19:05Minister, you've been claiming recently
19:08that in your dealings with the local authority
19:10you've been making some progress
19:12as regards civil defence.
19:14But surely this has been more in the field of publicity
19:16than any real achievement.
19:18No, no, no, no, Ludo.
19:20Civil authorities are being made to face up to these issues
19:24because of the extra interest that we have generated.
19:27Well, you're agreeing your success has been a publicity success.
19:31Well, if you want to put it that way, yes.
19:32But things are changing.
19:34Well, what about Thames Marsh?
19:36Ah, Thames Marsh. Good example.
19:38As I've said in the press,
19:39they have got one fallout shelter
19:41and a place in it has been reserved
19:43for Mr Ben Stanley, the leader of the council,
19:45who refuses to build shelters for others.
19:48Don't you think that's rather hypocritical?
19:50Well, surely, Minister, it's reasonable to expect
19:52that one of our elected representatives
19:54should have a chance of survival.
19:55Well, who is to govern otherwise?
19:58In the event of a nuclear holocaust,
20:00and of course we all hope and pray
20:02that such a thing will never happen,
20:04there are perhaps more important people
20:06than mere politicians.
20:08I mean, doctors, nurses, ambulance men, and so on.
20:12All people who run essential services.
20:15Correct me if I'm wrong, Minister,
20:16but is it not a fact that the Prime Minister
20:18and the Home Secretary have places reserved for them
20:21in government fallout shelters?
20:22That is completely different.
20:28How?
20:29Well, there has to be someone to run the, you know...
20:34Minister, as I understand it,
20:36you're saying that political leaders
20:37should give up their places for doctors and nurses.
20:40Well, now, have you put this idea
20:42to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary?
20:44I think we ought to be extremely careful
20:46not to trivialise what is a very serious issue,
20:49Ludovic.
20:51To do another example,
20:53I've just been told of a borough
20:54which sent a group of councillors
20:56at the ratepayers' expense to California
20:58to look at fallout shelters,
21:00and when they got back,
21:00they couldn't do anything about it
21:02because they'd spent the entire civil defence budget
21:04for three whole years on the trip.
21:06How shocking.
21:10Shocking.
21:13Thank you, Minister.
21:14Oh, by the way,
21:14how did the recording go?
21:17Well, I got into a bit of bother
21:19over Ben Stanley's bunker.
21:21I said that politicians weren't as important
21:23as doctors and so on.
21:25Did you?
21:27And then he said,
21:28what about the PM's place
21:29in the government shelter?
21:31Ah.
21:32And what did you say?
21:33Well, I got out of it, of course.
21:35Quite cleverly, actually.
21:37All the same,
21:38I'm not too sure how happy the PM will be about it.
21:41But then I recovered
21:42with a marvellous story I remembered
21:44about a group of councillors
21:45who went all the way to California
21:47to look at fallout shelters
21:48and spent three entire years
21:50of the civil defence budget on the jaunt.
21:56May I ask where that came from?
21:58Yes, where did that come from, then?
22:00Oh, from the civil defence directorate, Minister.
22:02They must have known
22:03that you were doing the interview.
22:04Oh, well.
22:08Anyway, Minister,
22:09I'm sure you know what you're doing.
22:11I've read, I've read.
22:12You only say that
22:13when I've made an appalling cock-up.
22:19Minister,
22:19you do know that the baray in question
22:21contains the PM's constituency
22:23and that the PM's election agent
22:27was the councillor who led the delegation.
22:29That was just a joke, wasn't it?
22:37Well, number 10 have been trying to keep it quiet for weeks,
22:39but, oh, well, truth will out.
22:42No, no, no.
22:43No, no.
22:45No, it mustn't out.
22:47It might look like a personal attack.
22:48You know what the PM's like about loyalty just now.
22:50Oh, yes.
22:51Humphrey, this interview must not go out.
22:53Well, unfortunately, Minister,
22:56I haven't the time.
22:57I must be going.
22:58Humphrey!
22:58Humphrey, I...
22:59I'm...
23:00I'm ordering you, Humphrey.
23:03Well, alas, Minister,
23:04it is your orders that are calling me away.
23:06What do you mean?
23:07Well, your scheme for imposing
23:08pre-set failure standards on local councils
23:11is very complex.
23:12You ask for proposals straight away.
23:14It's taking every moment of my time,
23:17much as I would like to help.
23:21However,
23:22if implementing failure standards
23:25were not quite so urgent...
23:27You mean you can stop this broadcast?
23:30Oh, now, Minister,
23:30we cannot censor the BBC.
23:33But I happen to be lunching
23:35with the BBC's Director of Policy.
23:37Perhaps you'd care to join us?
23:39What if we can't censor them?
23:41Well, we can always try to persuade them
23:43to withdraw programmes voluntarily
23:45once they realise that transmission
23:47is not in the public interest.
23:50Well, it's not in my interest.
23:52And I represent the public,
23:55so it's not in the public interest.
23:59That's a novel argument.
24:03We haven't tried that on them before.
24:06Have we?
24:08I'm sorry, Mr. Hacker,
24:10but the BBC cannot give in
24:11to government pressure.
24:12Well, let's leave that on one side, shall we?
24:14No, no, no, no.
24:15Let's leave that on one side, shall we?
24:18Please, Minister.
24:20Frank, I wonder if I could raise something else.
24:22There is considerable disquiet
24:24about the BBC's attitude
24:26and hostility towards the government.
24:29But that's absurd.
24:30Is it?
24:32Well, they've been documenting instances
24:34of bias in BBC current affairs.
24:36Favourable news stories not reported.
24:42Oh, yes, excessive publicity
24:43for other countries' case against Britain.
24:47Especially our common market enemies.
24:49Favourable news stories not reported.
24:50Oh, yes.
24:51Oh, yes.
24:52Oh, yes.
24:52Oh, yes.
24:53Oh, yes.
24:56Jokes against the Prime Minister.
24:59Unnecessary publicity for anti-government demonstrations
25:02and minister's programme suggestions not accepted.
25:06I'm afraid I didn't have room in my case for the others.
25:12But I'm sure we've got answers to all these.
25:15Of course, the BBC's always got answers.
25:16Silly ones, but it's got them.
25:18Yes, of course.
25:20But I thought it was only fair to warn you
25:21that questions are being asked.
25:23What sort of questions?
25:24Well, for example,
25:26were Parliament to be televised,
25:29whether it shouldn't be entrusted to ITV.
25:33You can't, it's serious.
25:35And whether the BBC administration
25:38is actually making the cuts in jobs and premises
25:40that we've endured in government.
25:43And should a select committee be appointed
25:44to scrutinise BBC expenditure?
25:47But that would be an intolerable intrusion.
25:48Well, of course.
25:50And then, of course,
25:51there's this extraordinary matter of the boxes
25:53at Ascot, Wimbledon, Lord's, Cotton Garden and the Prom.
25:57Ah, yes, well, those are a technical requirement.
26:00Production and engineering staff.
26:02Hmm.
26:02Reports from the Inland Revenue
26:06suggest that the production and engineering staff
26:09are all holding champagne glasses
26:11and are all accompanied by their wives
26:15and all bear remarkable similarity
26:24to governors, directors and executives
26:26of the corporation and their friends.
26:30Oh, I say, you've come out very well.
26:32Mind you, it is just possible
26:37that we might be able to contain
26:39all this criticism
26:40provided the files don't get any larger.
26:42And I've been urging my minister
26:44that there's really no need
26:45to take up this case
26:46of the civil defence issue formally.
26:48But, but, but, but you must see my position.
26:53The BBC cannot give in to government pressure.
26:56No, no, of course not.
26:56We wouldn't want them to, would we, minister?
26:58Wouldn't we?
26:59No, of course not.
27:00But you see, the minister's interview
27:02with Ludovic Kennedy
27:03did contain some factual errors.
27:06Factual errors?
27:06Ah, well, now, that's different.
27:08I mean, as you know,
27:08the BBC couldn't give in to government pressure.
27:10Oh, absolutely not.
27:11But we do set great store by factual action.
27:13Oh, yes, yes.
27:15But you see, some of the information
27:16in the interview might well be out of date
27:18by the time of transmission.
27:19Out of date?
27:19Yes.
27:19Out of date?
27:20Ah, well, now, that's serious.
27:21I mean, obviously, the BBC,
27:23I mean, as you know,
27:23couldn't possibly give in to government pressure.
27:25Oh, indeed not.
27:26But we do not want to transmit out-of-date material.
27:29And since the recording,
27:31I realised that I made one or two inadvertent slips
27:34that might have security implications.
27:37Such as?
27:38He can't tell you what they are.
27:42Why not?
27:44Security.
27:46You can't be too careful about security, I do agree.
27:48If the defence of the realm is at stake,
27:50well, we do have to be very responsible.
27:51I mean, obviously, the BBC couldn't give in
27:54to government pressure.
27:55No, absolutely not.
27:56But security, well, you can't be too careful.
27:58Can't be too careful.
27:59Can't be too careful, you say.
28:00No, if there are inaccuracies and security worries,
28:04well, the BBC wouldn't want to put the interview out.
28:06Precisely.
28:06That puts a completely different complexion on it.
28:08Completely different.
28:09Completely different.
28:11So, this mission would not be in the public's interest.
28:14But I must make one thing absolutely clear.
28:16Yes?
28:17There can be absolutely no question
28:18of the BBC ever giving in to government pressure.
28:20Oh, good news, Minister.
28:27The BBC have decided not to send out
28:30your interview with Ludovic Kennedy.
28:31Really?
28:32No, they felt that was the responsible course.
28:34Well done.
28:35Oh, it was nothing, Minister.
28:36And, you know, I can't help feeling
28:40that I was trapped into saying those things
28:42that might have embarrassed the PM.
28:45Oh, surely not.
28:46Yes.
28:47I think I was dropped right in it.
28:52How could you think such a ridiculous thought?
28:55Why is it ridiculous, Humphrey,
28:56to imagine that he would have tried to trap me?
28:59Who?
29:01Ludovic Kennedy.
29:04Oh, Ludovic Kennedy tried to trap you.
29:07Yes, well, I'm sure he did.
29:08Deceitful crowd, the media.
29:10Underhand.
29:10Can't trust him an inch.
29:11No, deceitful.
29:12Thoroughly deceitful.
29:13By the way, Humphrey,
29:14I think it might be wise
29:16to lay off the local councils.
29:18Oh, yes?
29:19After all,
29:20councillors are responsible,
29:22sensible people on the whole,
29:24and, of course,
29:24they are democratically elected.
29:26Democratically elected.
29:27I do think central government
29:28has to be frightfully careful
29:30before it starts telling them
29:31how to do their job.
29:32Oh, frightfully careful.
29:34And the failure standards?
29:35Yes.
29:36I think the same place.
29:40Don't you?
29:41Yes, minister.
29:42I will.
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