00:00Okay, my first guest on the Lokpal controversy is the senior Congress MP, senior lawyer of the Supreme Court, a former chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Law.
00:11Abhishek Manu Singhvi joins me. Appreciate your joining us, Dr. Singhvi.
00:15You've come out very strongly against that Lokpal decision to move a tender calling for ordering seven BMW cars for all the members of the Lokpal of India.
00:26You've called it a tragic irony for an anti-corruption body. Why have you used those words?
00:32Because the Lokpal sources have told us that all they are asking for is parity with Supreme Court judges' conditions.
00:40And since Supreme Court judges' service conditions allow them to have BMW cars, why can't the Lokpal also have a BMW car?
00:50Rajdeep, firstly, your voice was frequently broken, though I've got the gist of your question.
00:55Let me also answer it by stepping back for 15 seconds and telling you that there is a personal long association with this.
01:04Not only did my father coin the word, invent the word Lokpal and Lokayu, but he crusaded for it in the 60s.
01:11And by sheer coincidence, in late 2000, mid-2000, I happened to chair the committee which gave the report on the Lokpal.
01:23So there's been a long association.
01:25I am going to, you see, this point about the BMW is really relatively trivial, but it has become a peg to hang the comment or the complaint about.
01:35The real thing is, they are welcome to their BMWs, and I know that judges have entitlement to it, and I'm not really grudging them the BMWs.
01:43The real thing is that this is an institution with a huge underperformance, and I'll share some shocking statistics with you.
01:51It is an institution which has focused on the most petty officials, it has let off anybody remotely resembling a middle-level, much less a high-level official or politician.
02:04It has practiced opacity, selective disclosures, and it has passed on a lot of complaints to the CBC, CBI, which is actually supposed to supervise,
02:15and which are much more supposedly under their political masters.
02:19So I'll make good each of these comments as I go along, but this is the real reason why there is a reaction.
02:25That look, here you have, in a sense, a group of people who came to power at least partially on this campaign.
02:33Mr. Modi did nothing about it after passing the Lokpal Act from 2013 to 19, six long years.
02:41And in six years of inactivity after passing the Act.
02:44And from 19 to now, that is barely six years, you have had 34 investigations, Rajdeep, three, four, and seven, a total of seven prosecutions, sanctions granted.
02:58I mean, this, you might as well not have a Lokpal.
03:02And all of these have involved petty officials.
03:05One minute, one minute.
03:06You know, these numbers, sir, sir, just a minute.
03:08Just a minute.
03:08Sir, just a minute.
03:11The official data on the Lokpal website shows 6,955 complaints received since 2019.
03:20Preliminary inquiry ordered into 289 cases.
03:23170 complaints sent to CBC for inquiry.
03:27109 to CBI.
03:29So the Lokpal is claiming that they are actually doing some work.
03:33You seem to suggest that it is a completely ineffective body.
03:39But I'm glad my voice is getting to you because your voice is hardly getting to me.
03:42I'm getting it in bits and snatches.
03:44But again, getting the gist of your question, you know, the statistics are, to face it, they are true both sides.
03:5190% of complaints they receive are rejected on, you know what, on a supposedly wrong format.
04:02The ones which are entertained, a huge majority is passed on to CBC and CBI.
04:07The only two political leaders who have at all been proceeded against very readily and promptly, are Mauva Mitra and Shubhu Soren.
04:19Both are complained by the same person, Mr. Dube.
04:23No major ruling party, not a single ruling party person has faced an investigation.
04:28Sorry, yes, yes, him and Shubhu Soren, my apologies.
04:35No major BJP leader has faced an investigation, much less a prosecution sanction.
04:40And what is very interesting is that of the five complaints filed against the Prime Minister,
04:45one was formally, with a recent order, rejected.
04:49The status of four others is not known.
04:51And when they have other persons, they promptly put on the portal, on the website, the status.
04:56In a large number of cases, you have opacity, you go to the portal, you will not get a response.
05:02You will not get what happened to complaint X, Y, Z.
05:05So all of them, so you should be saying, actually, Rajdeep, 100 received, 90 rejected for wrong format,
05:115 sent to CBI, 5 entertained.
05:15This is the response on these five.
05:17That's not available.
05:18When they want selectively, they will publish it, like in the Mauva Mitra case.
05:22No, no, but Dr.
05:23And the Heman Soren case.
05:24Dr. Singhvi, Dr. Singhvi, Dr. Singhvi, the Lokpal is headed by a former Supreme Court judge, Justice Khan Vilkar.
05:33All the members of them are leading judges.
05:36They have been appointed by a committee that includes the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition,
05:41a nominee of the Chief Justice or the Chief Justice himself and an eminent jurist.
05:46Where does the flaw lie then?
05:49You've got top people in the country appointing the Lokpal's, they themselves include a senior Supreme Court judge.
05:56Are you saying these judges are also partly to blame?
05:59They are looking for BMWs, but they are not delivering justice.
06:03Is that your, and if they are, they are delivering it in a partisan manner.
06:09That's your argument.
06:11You know, the partisan manner will come if you start dealing with them.
06:15There is no scope for partisan manner because I'm not dealing with any complaint against you.
06:21The partisanship, if at all, can be shown only in a Mauva Mitra or a Heman Soren case, where it has been shown.
06:28Where is the question of showing partisanship where there is no entertainment?
06:32Now, take for example, five complaints.
06:34I give the Prime Minister a complete mandate of doubt, you can reject all five.
06:38One is rejected, four we don't know the fate of, we don't have a reasoned order.
06:43I'm giving you an example.
06:45Tell me a single ruling party, there are many complaints against ruling party members in various activities, etc.
06:52Tell me a single one, all the few which have had prosecution complaints or investigation are bank officials, clerks, somebody taking a bribe, middle level, maximum.
07:04And let me tell you, an institution is ultimately only as good or bad as the long term vision you have for it as its member and leader.
07:15It is you who have to give a direction.
07:17It is you who have to, you know how things change in institutions.
07:21Sir, sir, how would you, no, no, one minute, one minute.
07:25Sir, you said your father was the first to envisage it.
07:28You said you were part of the Committee on Law which tried to bring the Lokpal to life as it were.
07:35Now you are telling me that the flaw lies in the leadership, the flaw lies in the lack of direction.
07:43I maintain as I said to you that many of these are former judges.
07:46Is the problem with the people who are in the Lokpal that they feel eternally grateful to whoever appoints them and therefore do not act?
07:53Or is there a flaw in the institution and the way it has been framed itself?
07:57Yes, a very important question.
07:59Why do we need another anti-corruption body?
08:01It's a hard, exactly.
08:03You know, Sherlock Holmes once said, somebody said, you know, the dog did not bark.
08:12So he says that's the special thing to be investigated.
08:17You know, you are envisaged.
08:19Let me tell you, this started with the Swedish concept of parliamentary ombudsman.
08:23There was no anti-corruption, anti-bribery system in that.
08:27This anti-bribery corruption is a modification of the original conception of Lokpal.
08:33That was only on maladministration.
08:35Now today, you have to be a watchdog.
08:39You have to be a genuine watchdog, which if it doesn't bite, it must at least bark.
08:45You can't be a somnolent.
08:47I won't use the word lapdog, but I will say you can't be somnolent.
08:51You have to be vigilant.
08:53Can you be vigilant if you are doing 34 investigations and 7 prosecution complaints in 5 years, 6 years?
08:58You tell me.
09:00And you have to stand up to authority.
09:02T.N. Session was not a very liked man.
09:05And he did a lot of wrong also occurring to me.
09:08But he did make an institution something to reckon with.
09:12You need to, also I blame the government.
09:15Apart from the eternally grateful syndrome.
09:15No, sir, that's the problem.
09:16That you need a Lokpal who will stand up to the establishment.
09:19Dr. Singh, therefore, then the issue is that the people who populate the Lokpal want BMW cars at taxpayers' expense, but will not stand up to the establishment.
09:31That's the issue.
09:32Look, look, look.
09:34The cars, let me assume they are entitled.
09:36I don't want a lapdog.
09:39I want a watchdog.
09:40I have no problem.
09:40I want a watchdog, not a lapdog.
09:43I have no problem with the cars.
09:46Although that's a peg to hang a story on, it really brings out the acroosh of the public.
09:51If judges are entitled to series 3 or 5, let them be entitled to it.
09:55But if they are entitled to it, the taxpayer is paying for them.
09:58I have no problem there also.
10:00You have to act.
10:01You tell me anybody in this country knows about the Lokpal?
10:04Anybody in this country has uncovered corruption through the Lokpal?
10:07Anybody in this country has really treats them or thinks of them as an effective watchdog?
10:12You are looking at normal.
10:14This can be done by a CBC.
10:15It can be done, in fact, by an intra-departmental vigilance officer, what you are doing.
10:20You were supposed to strike terror in the heart, let me be very clear, of the middle level and the plus, plus, plus above that.
10:29You know, when Dequan Yu became Prime Minister of Singapore, he didn't have a Lokpal.
10:35But he said, look, I will ensure that the fear of God strikes those in my senior people who indulge in this.
10:42Singapore was five times more corrupt than India at that time.
10:44In the 60s.
10:46Now, you have to strike some terror.
10:48Here is an institution which is understaffed.
10:49They don't have a director of public prosecutions yet.
10:52You know that?
10:53So, they have done, they have not carved out.
10:56I would have been anxious as a Lokpal or a Lokpal member to carve out a niche for myself.
11:03What it has become is another government department quietly in the backdrop,
11:07not really discharging the anti-corruption, super heavyweight institution,
11:12to envisage that on which Anna Hazare, the entire ARP movement and partially the BJP road to power.
11:21Even Loka youths, let me tell you.
11:23Yes, aided by the Congress which agreed to have a Lokpal at the time.
11:31We have always agreed to many things.
11:34Bona fide in the good administration of the country and they are used to bite back at us.
11:38Please bite at us.
11:40But also bite at those who are supposed to bite at.
11:43There you are not functioning.
11:44Even Loka youths at the state level have functioned more effectively.
11:48You have examples in Karnatak.
11:50You have examples in Karnatak.
11:51You have examples in other states.
11:54This Lokpal institution at the center must immediately revamp itself.
12:00Okay, I am going to leave it there, Dr. Singhvi.
12:06I appreciate you taking the time off.
12:08I know you are on holiday.
12:09I won't tell our viewers where you are.
12:11But that perhaps explains part of the audio problem that we were initially having.
12:15But I appreciate, Dr. Singhvi, you joining us here on the show tonight.
12:21Thank you very much.
12:21Thank you and happy Diwali.
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