On this Special Report, Congress MP and senior advocate Abhishek Manu Singhvi discusses the controversy surrounding India's anti-corruption ombudsman, the Lokpal, following its tender for high-end BMW cars. 'I want the watchdog not a lapdog,' Singhvi states, questioning the institution's effectiveness and priorities. He argues the body has demonstrated 'huge underperformance', citing statistics of minimal investigations and prosecutions since its inception. Singhvi alleges the Lokpal focuses on petty officials while showing opacity and partisanship, particularly in handling complaints against opposition figures versus those from the ruling party. The discussion, hosted by India Today's Rajdeep Sardesai, delves into whether the flaw lies with the institution's leadership, which includes former senior judges like Chairperson A.M. Khanwilkar, or its fundamental structure.
00:00Okay, my first guest on the Lokpal controversy is the senior Congress MP, senior lawyer of the Supreme Court, a former chairman of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Law.
00:11Abhishek Manu Singhvi joins me. Appreciate your joining us, Dr. Singhvi.
00:15You've come out very strongly against that Lokpal decision to move a tender calling for ordering seven BMW cars for all the members of the Lokpal of India.
00:26You've called it a tragic irony for an anti-corruption body. Why have you used those words?
00:32Because the Lokpal sources have told us that all they are asking for is parity with Supreme Court judges' conditions.
00:40And since Supreme Court judges' service conditions allow them to have BMW cars, why can't the Lokpal also have a BMW car?
00:50Rajdeep, firstly, your voice was frequently broken, though I've got the gist of your question.
00:55Let me also answer it by stepping back for 15 seconds and telling you that there is a personal long association with this.
01:04Not only did my father coin the word, invent the word Lokpal and Lokayu, but he crusaded for it in the 60s.
01:11And by sheer coincidence, in late 2000, mid-2000, I happened to chair the committee which gave the report on the Lokpal.
01:23So there's been a long association.
01:25I am going to, you see, this point about the BMW is really relatively trivial, but it has become a peg to hang the comment or the complaint about.
01:35The real thing is, they are welcome to their BMWs, and I know that judges have entitlement to it, and I'm not really grudging them the BMWs.
01:43The real thing is that this is an institution with a huge underperformance, and I'll share some shocking statistics with you.
01:51It is an institution which has focused on the most petty officials, it has let off anybody remotely resembling a middle-level, much less a high-level official or politician.
02:04It has practiced opacity, selective disclosures, and it has passed on a lot of complaints to the CBC, CBI, which is actually supposed to supervise,
02:15and which are much more supposedly under their political masters.
02:19So I'll make good each of these comments as I go along, but this is the real reason why there is a reaction.
02:25That look, here you have, in a sense, a group of people who came to power at least partially on this campaign.
02:33Mr. Modi did nothing about it after passing the Lokpal Act from 2013 to 19, six long years.
02:41And in six years of inactivity after passing the Act.
02:44And from 19 to now, that is barely six years, you have had 34 investigations, Rajdeep, three, four, and seven, a total of seven prosecutions, sanctions granted.
02:58I mean, this, you might as well not have a Lokpal.
03:02And all of these have involved petty officials.
03:05One minute, one minute.
03:06You know, these numbers, sir, sir, just a minute.
03:08Just a minute.
03:08Sir, just a minute.
03:11The official data on the Lokpal website shows 6,955 complaints received since 2019.
03:20Preliminary inquiry ordered into 289 cases.
03:23170 complaints sent to CBC for inquiry.
03:27109 to CBI.
03:29So the Lokpal is claiming that they are actually doing some work.
03:33You seem to suggest that it is a completely ineffective body.
03:39But I'm glad my voice is getting to you because your voice is hardly getting to me.
03:42I'm getting it in bits and snatches.
03:44But again, getting the gist of your question, you know, the statistics are, to face it, they are true both sides.
03:5190% of complaints they receive are rejected on, you know what, on a supposedly wrong format.
04:02The ones which are entertained, a huge majority is passed on to CBC and CBI.
04:07The only two political leaders who have at all been proceeded against very readily and promptly, are Mauva Mitra and Shubhu Soren.
04:19Both are complained by the same person, Mr. Dube.
04:23No major ruling party, not a single ruling party person has faced an investigation.
04:28Sorry, yes, yes, him and Shubhu Soren, my apologies.
04:35No major BJP leader has faced an investigation, much less a prosecution sanction.
04:40And what is very interesting is that of the five complaints filed against the Prime Minister,
04:45one was formally, with a recent order, rejected.
04:49The status of four others is not known.
04:51And when they have other persons, they promptly put on the portal, on the website, the status.
04:56In a large number of cases, you have opacity, you go to the portal, you will not get a response.
05:02You will not get what happened to complaint X, Y, Z.
05:05So all of them, so you should be saying, actually, Rajdeep, 100 received, 90 rejected for wrong format,
05:115 sent to CBI, 5 entertained.
05:15This is the response on these five.
05:17That's not available.
05:18When they want selectively, they will publish it, like in the Mauva Mitra case.
05:22No, no, but Dr.
05:23And the Heman Soren case.
05:24Dr. Singhvi, Dr. Singhvi, Dr. Singhvi, the Lokpal is headed by a former Supreme Court judge, Justice Khan Vilkar.
05:33All the members of them are leading judges.
05:36They have been appointed by a committee that includes the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition,
05:41a nominee of the Chief Justice or the Chief Justice himself and an eminent jurist.
05:46Where does the flaw lie then?
05:49You've got top people in the country appointing the Lokpal's, they themselves include a senior Supreme Court judge.
05:56Are you saying these judges are also partly to blame?
05:59They are looking for BMWs, but they are not delivering justice.
06:03Is that your, and if they are, they are delivering it in a partisan manner.
06:09That's your argument.
06:11You know, the partisan manner will come if you start dealing with them.
06:15There is no scope for partisan manner because I'm not dealing with any complaint against you.
06:21The partisanship, if at all, can be shown only in a Mauva Mitra or a Heman Soren case, where it has been shown.
06:28Where is the question of showing partisanship where there is no entertainment?
06:32Now, take for example, five complaints.
06:34I give the Prime Minister a complete mandate of doubt, you can reject all five.
06:38One is rejected, four we don't know the fate of, we don't have a reasoned order.
06:43I'm giving you an example.
06:45Tell me a single ruling party, there are many complaints against ruling party members in various activities, etc.
06:52Tell me a single one, all the few which have had prosecution complaints or investigation are bank officials, clerks, somebody taking a bribe, middle level, maximum.
07:04And let me tell you, an institution is ultimately only as good or bad as the long term vision you have for it as its member and leader.
07:15It is you who have to give a direction.
07:17It is you who have to, you know how things change in institutions.
07:21Sir, sir, how would you, no, no, one minute, one minute.
07:25Sir, you said your father was the first to envisage it.
07:28You said you were part of the Committee on Law which tried to bring the Lokpal to life as it were.
07:35Now you are telling me that the flaw lies in the leadership, the flaw lies in the lack of direction.
07:43I maintain as I said to you that many of these are former judges.
07:46Is the problem with the people who are in the Lokpal that they feel eternally grateful to whoever appoints them and therefore do not act?
07:53Or is there a flaw in the institution and the way it has been framed itself?
07:57Yes, a very important question.
07:59Why do we need another anti-corruption body?
08:01It's a hard, exactly.
08:03You know, Sherlock Holmes once said, somebody said, you know, the dog did not bark.
08:12So he says that's the special thing to be investigated.
08:17You know, you are envisaged.
08:19Let me tell you, this started with the Swedish concept of parliamentary ombudsman.
08:23There was no anti-corruption, anti-bribery system in that.
08:27This anti-bribery corruption is a modification of the original conception of Lokpal.
08:33That was only on maladministration.
08:35Now today, you have to be a watchdog.
08:39You have to be a genuine watchdog, which if it doesn't bite, it must at least bark.
08:45You can't be a somnolent.
08:47I won't use the word lapdog, but I will say you can't be somnolent.
08:51You have to be vigilant.
08:53Can you be vigilant if you are doing 34 investigations and 7 prosecution complaints in 5 years, 6 years?
08:58You tell me.
09:00And you have to stand up to authority.
09:02T.N. Session was not a very liked man.
09:05And he did a lot of wrong also occurring to me.
09:08But he did make an institution something to reckon with.
09:12You need to, also I blame the government.
09:15Apart from the eternally grateful syndrome.
09:15No, sir, that's the problem.
09:16That you need a Lokpal who will stand up to the establishment.
09:19Dr. Singh, therefore, then the issue is that the people who populate the Lokpal want BMW cars at taxpayers' expense, but will not stand up to the establishment.
09:31That's the issue.
09:32Look, look, look.
09:34The cars, let me assume they are entitled.
09:36I don't want a lapdog.
09:39I want a watchdog.
09:40I have no problem.
09:40I want a watchdog, not a lapdog.
09:43I have no problem with the cars.
09:46Although that's a peg to hang a story on, it really brings out the acroosh of the public.
09:51If judges are entitled to series 3 or 5, let them be entitled to it.
09:55But if they are entitled to it, the taxpayer is paying for them.
09:58I have no problem there also.
10:00You have to act.
10:01You tell me anybody in this country knows about the Lokpal?
10:04Anybody in this country has uncovered corruption through the Lokpal?
10:07Anybody in this country has really treats them or thinks of them as an effective watchdog?
10:12You are looking at normal.
10:14This can be done by a CBC.
10:15It can be done, in fact, by an intra-departmental vigilance officer, what you are doing.
10:20You were supposed to strike terror in the heart, let me be very clear, of the middle level and the plus, plus, plus above that.
10:29You know, when Dequan Yu became Prime Minister of Singapore, he didn't have a Lokpal.
10:35But he said, look, I will ensure that the fear of God strikes those in my senior people who indulge in this.
10:42Singapore was five times more corrupt than India at that time.
10:44In the 60s.
10:46Now, you have to strike some terror.
10:48Here is an institution which is understaffed.
10:49They don't have a director of public prosecutions yet.
10:52You know that?
10:53So, they have done, they have not carved out.
10:56I would have been anxious as a Lokpal or a Lokpal member to carve out a niche for myself.
11:03What it has become is another government department quietly in the backdrop,
11:07not really discharging the anti-corruption, super heavyweight institution,
11:12to envisage that on which Anna Hazare, the entire ARP movement and partially the BJP road to power.
11:21Even Loka youths, let me tell you.
11:23Yes, aided by the Congress which agreed to have a Lokpal at the time.
11:31We have always agreed to many things.
11:34Bona fide in the good administration of the country and they are used to bite back at us.
11:38Please bite at us.
11:40But also bite at those who are supposed to bite at.
11:43There you are not functioning.
11:44Even Loka youths at the state level have functioned more effectively.
11:48You have examples in Karnatak.
11:50You have examples in Karnatak.
11:51You have examples in other states.
11:54This Lokpal institution at the center must immediately revamp itself.
12:00Okay, I am going to leave it there, Dr. Singhvi.
12:06I appreciate you taking the time off.
12:08I know you are on holiday.
12:09I won't tell our viewers where you are.
12:11But that perhaps explains part of the audio problem that we were initially having.
12:15But I appreciate, Dr. Singhvi, you joining us here on the show tonight.
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