- 2 months ago
Opposition leaders slam the Lokpal's decision to procure BMW cars for its chairperson and members.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Okay, let's raise the big questions and take forward what Dr. Singhvi said.
00:04Five crore wheels for anti-graft watchdog.
00:07Is that a way forward for an anti-corruption body?
00:10Does the Lokpal really need these luxury rights?
00:13Isn't a 0.1% conviction rate damning?
00:18Should the Lokpal simply be scrapped?
00:20Is the question we want to ask.
00:21Joining me now, Kiran Bedi, member Anna Andolan.
00:24She was among those who demanded a Lokpal at the time over a decade ago.
00:28Anjali Bhardwaj is co-convener national campaign for people's right to information.
00:33Raises issues of corruption.
00:35Dushan Dave, one of the country's leading lawyers, senior advocate.
00:38Supreme Court always speaks his mind out.
00:41I want to come to each of you, starting with you, Dr. Bedi, first.
00:44You tell me, after all these years when you pushed for a Lokpal,
00:47today you're hearing that the entire body needs to be revamped.
00:50It's acting like an inter-departmental body, not really putting any fear in the corrupt.
00:56Do you feel that entire campaign was wasted?
01:00Whatever happened to your demand for a Lokpal, do you believe it was justified all these years later?
01:06Well, the kind of report you submitted, the kind of information you revealed,
01:12obviously reveals a very non-performing or underperforming institution.
01:17Something which had laudable objectives and was needed at that time, but obviously has not performed.
01:25It's a letdown.
01:27It's needed.
01:28To my mind, it's needed, but it's not performed.
01:31So I think it's the people who had it, had it over the years.
01:35Rajdeep, we don't have social audit of institutions like these.
01:39I wish we'd had such a social audit every year of the performance of the Lokpal so that people would know how much is being spent and how much has been delivered.
01:51I think this is the first time I'm hearing.
01:53I may be responsible for it, but I'm for the first time hearing the kind of performance Lokpal has done over the years since it happened.
02:03And it was not an individual performance.
02:05It was a very collective movement, which actually was filling in a vacuum.
02:11And Lokpal was filling a very major vacuum to deal with high-level, high-end corruption, which was needed at that time.
02:19But it's obviously, by the reports which you submitted, it's underperformed.
02:24And that's a tragic loss.
02:26I would say an institution like this is needed.
02:29It is needed, but it must be a performing institution, fearless institution.
02:34Okay, you're saying it's needed?
02:36Fearless institution.
02:37And fearless and confident at delivering.
02:40You're saying it's needed?
02:41You're saying it's needed?
02:42It needs to be audited.
02:44Okay?
02:45You're saying it's needed?
02:46It should be audited.
02:47Dushant, your view, should we just scrap the Lokpal?
02:50Why is it needed?
02:51If it's going to only act as, some say, the government's lapdog, why do we need it?
02:56It was supposed to be an anti-corruption watchdog.
02:58Well, Rajiv, first and foremost, every public officer, whether he's a minister, whether he's a MLA, whether he's a judge, whether he's an officer,
03:11everybody is, you know, today enjoying the fruits of, you know, opulence in public life, is not bothered at all about the expenditure.
03:22They do not treat their office as a trustee, which they should.
03:27And as a result of that, everywhere, I mean, I can speak for judiciary, that judges have insisted on buying these expensive cars across the country in Supreme Court,
03:38BMWs in other high courts, other expensive cars.
03:40And the governments have naturally caved in because they don't want to displease the judges so that they don't get displeasing judgments.
03:48You know, I have known of cases where judges are a lot given, you know, mobile phones from the, you know, registry.
03:55And the mobile phones are used by their practicing lawyer children with bills amounting to tens of thousands of rupees.
04:03Now, you know, nobody in this country, I mean, you know, for example, CAG just doesn't do anything.
04:10We know how much money has been spent in buying aircraft for the prime minister and for other, you know, ministers and all in various ministries.
04:19Nobody questions thousands of crores are wasted in buying cars, buying aircraft.
04:23Every chief minister is now buying an aircraft.
04:26The public life today has become a life to be enjoyed, not to serve the people of the country.
04:32Lokal, you know, Lokpal was created with a very good objective.
04:36Unfortunately, every institution in this country has catapulted and Lokpal is one of them, the latest one.
04:43So, I don't think any purpose is going to be served because, you know, all these institutions are compromised.
04:51And therefore, it is very difficult for us to get any results.
04:55As, you know, everybody on this panel, Dr. Singh, we said, Mrs. Kiran Bedi said, I agree with them that, yes, there is non-performance.
05:03According to me, there is no performance at all.
05:06These bodies should be abolished so that we can save some money.
05:10Today, you walk, you know, you go across the country, which I do.
05:14I have friends across the country.
05:16Everybody talks in whispers that corruption is very, very high amongst the bureaucracy, amongst the income tax, amongst the ED.
05:25Nobody wants to talk about it.
05:26In fact, the judgment which, you know, weaponized ED was given by Justice Kanvilkar in Supreme Court.
05:32He should start investigating ED itself because many a time Supreme Court judges in recent years have spoken about ED's role, ED's conduct.
05:41So, these are issues which nobody wants to address.
05:44Unfortunately, Radhib, in this country, we will never, you know, overcome these challenges because we have lost the will to fight these challenges.
05:51And public offices are manned by people who are very selectively selected so that, you know, they really don't do what they are supposed to do.
06:00And they really end up enjoying a very nice life, a cushy life.
06:05And we have seen, you know, former Chief Justice of India enjoying the house for eight and a half months.
06:11I remember my father was a judge.
06:13As a judge of the high court in the early 70s, if he didn't have money to, you know, fill in petrol in the car, he would not call a car from the high court.
06:20He would walk down to the high court.
06:23The day he retired, we left the house.
06:24You know, that kind of thing was there.
06:27Today, nobody cares about it.
06:29Everybody is, you know, enjoying the fruits of the office as if personal office.
06:34So, I don't think, Radhib, this is an extremely bad precedent that Justice Kanvilkar is setting.
06:40In fact, he should not be doing it.
06:42He should stop at this if he has any, you know, sense or sensibility left.
06:47Because otherwise, you know, it raises very avoidable and serious questions about the integrity of the institution.
06:54Okay, you've raised very, very important points, Mr. Davet.
07:01Anjali Bhardwaj, do we therefore need, even if we have to have a Lokpal, A, it needs to start performing and put the fear of the Lokpal in the minds of powerful people.
07:14But importantly, do we need an audit of it?
07:17This entire story has come up because of the BMW.
07:21Otherwise, nobody was even looking at what the Lokpal was doing.
07:24The question, therefore, is, is this also part of the need to be transparent and audit all these bodies that are functioning at taxpayers' expense?
07:34Yes, Rajdeep, I totally agree that there needs to be an audit of all these bodies.
07:39All these bodies need to understand that they are finally in a democracy accountable to the people of India.
07:46They are not accountable to those in power.
07:49They are not accountable to any minister, prime minister.
07:52They are accountable to the people of the country.
07:54There has to be an audit.
07:56They have to be accountable.
07:58Let me also inform your viewers that the Lokpal has not put out an annual report of its performance after 2021-22 on its website.
08:10I also want to say here that when we talk about a watchdog like the Lokpal, Rajdeep, all of us remember the kind of public campaign that happened when the Lokpal was being demanded.
08:24What was the reason why a body like this was required?
08:27Everybody felt that big ticket cases of corruption are not handled properly in the country.
08:34Those in the highest offices, when they are indulging in corruption, the CBI, CVC, these kind of bodies have become caged parrots.
08:44So we needed an independent and empowered body to look into cases of corruption.
08:50That is why the Lokpal was required.
08:53And therefore, I remember when the law was being drafted and civil society was looking at who should be in the selection committee,
09:01the most important thing was that the selection committee should not have a preponderance, a majority of the ruling party members of government representatives.
09:12Now, look at what has happened to the appointment process of the Lokpal.
09:16In the first five years after the Lokpal law was passed, no appointment was made by this government to the Lokpal.
09:25Finally, when in 2019 the appointment was made, it was made by a selection committee which had a majority of government representatives.
09:36The leader of opposition was not recognized and therefore was not a member.
09:40So we had a majority of the ruling party in the selection committee which decided who the members of the Lokpal will be.
09:50Naturally, it destroyed the basic tenet of setting up the Lokpal, which was independence, which was public trust.
09:59It completely eroded public trust because what people walked away with was the sense that the government obviously would appoint people who are close to the ruling dispensation,
10:09who are close to the government.
10:11And we have seen the working of the Lokpal Rajdeep.
10:16Yes, there has not been too much noise about it because unfortunately we are seeing how our mainstream media today is largely quiet about these issues.
10:25But civil society has been raising how the Lokpal has not been performing.
10:30You look at the prosecution wing of the Lokpal.
10:34It was such an important thing that we all fought for.
10:37The prosecution wing was to be set up by the Lokpal itself.
10:41Do you know when the prosecution wing has been set up?
10:44In June this year, after 12 years of the law being passed.
10:49So this has become a joke.
10:50The law was supposed to hold to account and stop corruption at the highest offices, which are the high ticket, big ticket corruption cases that any one of us have heard the Lokpal tech taking up.
11:04It's been nothing.
11:06There have been no.
11:07I mean, look at the kind of corruption the CAG has been flagging.
11:10Look at the kind of corruption the CAG has been flagging in its reports.
11:15Hundreds and thousands of crores of rupees of corruption in the Pradhan Mantri Gram Sadakyojana, in the highways construction in NHAI.
11:25The largest corruption scam in the country, the electoral bond scam has just come out a few years ago.
11:31Has anyone of us heard anything that the Lokpal has done on any of these cases?
11:36Are we being told that corruption is finished in this country and the Lokpal only finds seven cases to prosecute?
11:43Now, these are the questions that I think require answering.
11:46Can I, can I just get, ma'am, I'm just going to, you're hitting hard, you're hitting very hard and you're hitting where it hurts.
11:57Hopefully, the people are waking up, but Kiran Bedi, you want to respond.
12:01It almost seems as if the Lokpal has then become a Jokpal.
12:04You see, the fact is that maybe the system is unwilling to have a Lokpal who actually will bite and not just bark.
12:13At the moment, they're not even barking, but there's no bite.
12:16So, is our system incapable of handling a strong anti-corruption independent ombudsman, Kiran Bedi?
12:22Well, the body was created exactly for that purpose.
12:26But if the body decides to remain docile itself, then what is the option?
12:32There is no dearth of cases of corruption, visible corruption.
12:36No, no, why blame the body? Blame the system. Blame those who appoint the body.
12:39No, those people who are appointed, even if these people have been appointed, what stops them to perform?
12:47Why are they without, why are they fearless? Why are they not fearless?
12:51Why can't they perform?
12:52I understand they've been appointed by a system created, but what's wrong if they perform?
12:57Why are they not accountable?
12:59Doesn't their conscience speak up that they've been appointed for a purpose and they must deliver?
13:03Instead of, instead of going for opulence, why don't they go for performance?
13:08The point is, and as she said, that there's no annual report even posted up.
13:13Why? What stops them?
13:15What stops an individual posted, even if not rightly, from performing?
13:20Doesn't he or she have a conscience?
13:22Don't they have a duty to perform?
13:24Don't they feel comfortable?
13:26Don't they need to be, do they need to be told what their duty is?
13:29Do they need to know what they're for there?
13:32Nothing stops the person from performing.
13:35Now he can't say, oh no, I was wrongly appointed.
13:37Okay, even if you're wrongly appointed, but you are duty bound to perform.
13:46You know, you're saying that, but therefore Dushan Davey, is the problem with the individuals or the institution?
13:52You know, there's a belief and I heard Abhishek Manu Singh be saying, look at what TN session did.
13:56I mean, right or wrong, at least he brought fear in the eyes of politicians and the powerful.
14:02No, no, Rajdeep, all these bodies are being filled up, I must say, with great sense of sadness by judges who have, you know, shown to themselves to be extremely pro-establishment while they were judges.
14:17And, you know, this has been, for example, the earlier Lokpal, I forget his name, the first Lokpal, he sat on this judgment that I, you know, the case that I argued against Ms. Jail Alita and Shashikala for almost one year.
14:30And we had the hearings during the vacation, he insisted hearing should be completed in vacation, we completed it.
14:38Then he said, for one year, I have to ultimately mention the matter that you are not giving the judgment.
14:43He delivered the judgment after Ms. Jail Alita passed away and he hanged Shashikala.
14:49Now, you know, this is the kind of a man who was appointed as first Lokayuk.
14:53We all know what is happening, why he did that and why he was appointed.
14:57So, you know, unfortunately, Rajdeep, there is nothing we can do in this country today which can really fight corruption.
15:05I mean, officers like Ms. Betty, who have really, you know, been kind of a, you know, torchbearer of fight against what is happening, what is wrong in the society, there are far and few today.
15:16And, you know, in every sense of governance, in every level of governance, things are extremely, extremely dire.
15:23Nobody wants to talk.
15:25Nobody wants to, no newspaper wants to talk.
15:27No, television anchor wants to talk.
15:29No, people want to talk.
15:31So, you know, these cases, if you talk to people, everybody will tell you.
15:35I am, I, I, money.
15:40So, you know, unless.
15:41I am giving you a free run to raise these issues.
15:43I am not, I believe that these issues should, yes, unless there is a, I mean, unless voices are heard, more voices are heard.
15:51But, obviously, these cases won't come to light.
15:54Anjali Bhardwa, let me therefore give you a final word on it.
15:57If there was one change that you would want to bring, very quickly, what would that change be?
16:03To ensure that we have a Lokpal, which actually is an anti-corruption watchdog in the truest sense.
16:10Is there a, is there a change you would bring?
16:12If so, what?
16:13Very quickly.
16:14Rajdeep, what we need is political will.
16:18Till we have a situation where the law might be absolutely perfect.
16:24But if one is still going to end up with a selection committee that is going to have the preponderance of the ruling party, which will then naturally select people who are inclined towards them, close to them, action will continue to be taken selectively.
16:42Just look at the big names that the Lokpal has taken action against.
16:45I mean, you will find people like Mahua Moitra and other opposition leaders like the JMM chief minister.
16:51What about people who are sitting in power?
16:55That is what the Lokpal was meant for.
16:58The Lokpal was clearly, the requirement was that when somebody is in power, they control agencies, anti-corruption agencies, investigation agencies.
17:10We need an independent ombudsman.
17:13We need an independent anti-corruption ombudsman who will fearlessly take up cases of corruption.
17:20Where is that?
17:21And as long as there is no political will, selection committees will be, look at how the election commission...
17:27So you are saying the appointment process?
17:29Yes.
17:30And what about the assets and liabilities of the Lokpal, by the way?
17:33You are saying the appointment process needs to change?
17:37They are asking for these luxury cars.
17:39I was looking on their website for their own assets and liabilities.
17:43There is no account of it.
17:45They are not accountable to the people of this country.
17:50Let me leave it there.
17:51I think we've heard very strong...
17:53I've heard very strong voices today.
17:56Voices that need to be heard.
17:58Enough is enough, some say.
18:00In the way institutions...
18:01Yes, ma'am.
18:0230 seconds.
18:03Go ahead.
18:03Rajdeep, it's not just the employment process.
18:06Finally, it's the individuals in position.
18:08If they want to deliver and they owe it to their conscience, owe it to their country, they will
18:13deliver.
18:14But even if rightly appointed people develop cold feet, what can you do?
18:19The point finally is on the people occupying the positions.
18:23Do they have a conscience which hurts them?
18:26And to deliver...
18:27Small people in high offices.
18:29That's the problem India has.
18:30It's not just the people, but it's all...
18:35Okay.
18:36Very, very strong words that I've heard today.
18:38And I hope that we can...
18:40That these words will echo loud and clear among the powers that be who need to make our institutions
18:46truly independent and effective.
18:48The Lokpal has now stood exposed at the moment.
18:52I appreciate my guests joining me.
Be the first to comment