- 5 months ago
Dovile Sakaliene spoke to DW about Russia's war in Ukraine and Europe's strategic dependence on the US. "It's crucial that the Ukrainian army is kept strong, because that is the first security guarantee. That is the first line of defense," she said, adding that "we don't want to be a kid carried on the shoulders of the United States."
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00:00Secondary sanctions by the United States, that would be a nuclear option.
00:04We don't want to be a kid carried on the shoulders of the United States.
00:08For us in Lithuania, seeing this bloody murderer on the red carpet was difficult.
00:14After all the high-level meetings, President Putin, President Trump in Alaska, the European
00:20leaders with President Zelensky in the White House, Putin continues to strike Ukraine.
00:27So how to respond?
00:29You, Defense and Foreign Ministers are meeting here in Copenhagen.
00:33And with me is Dolavi Shakalyene, Defense Minister of Lithuania.
00:39Minister, what would be the most effective tools to put pressure on Putin?
00:46As we discussed with my colleagues, it's crucial that the Ukrainian army is kept strong, because
00:53that is the first security guarantee, that is the first line of defense, that is the first
00:57and foremost tool if we want to stop Russian aggression, or at least to give a clear message,
01:03to Putin that Ukraine is not going to be sold and we are not going to back down in helping Ukraine.
01:09Secondly, of course, financial pain to Russia.
01:13So that means that the next sanctions package has to be more ambitious.
01:17And we as Lithuania have always been pressuring for more secondary sanctions by United States.
01:23That would be a nuclear option that would actually hurt Russian war machine.
01:30that would hurt cash flow to Russian war machine significantly, substantially, and of course,
01:36finding a way to make use of those over 200 billion euros that are on the table of Russian assets,
01:45which still are not used for the benefit of Ukraine.
01:48Then a couple of more things is that when we talk about our contributions,
01:55it would be really wonderful if we could finalize the definition of the United States role
02:02in the coalition of the willing.
02:04That would be very helpful.
02:06We understand this is a difficult process and the progress that I've seen in the past few weeks is immense.
02:12So we are happy to hear that the United States, even though Europe will lead, needs to lead,
02:18still are thinking of taking on a serious role.
02:22But what you said shows that there is this strategic dependency of the Europeans on the United States.
02:32That's no news, I think. That's no news to us.
02:36So how long will that take?
02:38Do you mean gaining strategic independence from United States military support?
02:46Let's not be naive. We do not really have any real alternative to that.
02:51And having in mind that United States have been for the last few decades
02:56access of current security architecture of the democratic world,
03:02I'm not even sure we really have to change that.
03:05What we do have is to become stronger ourselves.
03:08Our goal is not to replace United States or to find an alternative to the power of United States,
03:14but to strengthen our joint armed forces by growing visibly stronger military muscle ourselves.
03:22I actually think that Secretary Hexert, when I had a meeting with him in Pentagon just a few weeks ago,
03:30was quite right, saying that United States can lead the army, but the army needs to be there.
03:36So we are the army that needs to be there.
03:39And for some strategic capabilities, in the coming decade, Europe is not going to be able to replace them.
03:45But this is an uncomfortable position to be so dependent on the United States, on President Trump.
03:54Well, that's the payment for peace dividends.
03:59That's the payment for being naive, thinking that the world has changed, because it hasn't.
04:04We remember how the world was celebrating nice Mr. Gorbachev when we were actually still confined in the Soviet prison,
04:14when we saw blood of our citizens shed when we tried to regain our independence.
04:21By the orders of that same nice Mr. Gorbachev, the world has not changed.
04:26We just wished it has.
04:28So now talking about their dependence, I still think it's a very big difference of sitting on shoulders of someone
04:35and being carried or walking hand in hand, shoulder to shoulder.
04:40So we were carried on the back of the United States, well, metaphorically, for quite some time.
04:47Now we need to walk next to them.
04:49Will they still be the bigger brother? Yes.
04:52But we don't want to be a kid, carried on the shoulders of the United States.
04:57We are strong financially and economically, despite all the challenges that we are facing.
05:02We have a will to change.
05:04Germany is the best example.
05:06I've been talking about Germany as a miracle these past few years.
05:11In 10 months, to go to zero energy dependence from Russia,
05:16from the position of being number one client of Russian energy resources.
05:21That is a miracle.
05:22That is an illustration of strong political will and values and principles.
05:28So, but to be honest, how much leverage Europe really has to bring Putin on the table?
05:36A lot.
05:37We have been underestimating ourselves.
05:40We have been, I would say, downsizing our capabilities by sometimes being too slow, too careful, too bureaucratic.
05:50Putin or Xi Jinping, who are really an efficient gang, they are not playing by the rules of the democratic world.
05:58And we are really worried how to make sure that every public procurement really happens very, very carefully according to 2 million rules.
06:09Transparency is critical in democracy.
06:12Really, we have to ensure that taxpayers' money is spent well and that the spending is justified.
06:19But do we really need so much bureaucracy? Do we really need such slow processes? No.
06:24Secondly, when we talk about our capacity economically, we admit that military industry in Russia has expanded quite faster than ours.
06:36Did we really put all we have in it? Did we make use of civil industry?
06:41There are companies who would be willing to transform and produce dual use components, who would be willing to go into military needs.
06:50Are we really welcoming them or we are still putting a long line of obstacles in front of them and just watching who will pass through?
06:59If the, I don't know how you say that in English, elephant, will pass through the needle.
07:06So, but then that's the wrong mindset, you think, in Europe? What has to change?
07:12It is changing. I've been defence minister for, what, nine months?
07:17Before that, two terms, member of National Security and Defence Committee participating in quite serious formats of discussions.
07:25And it was quite lonely for quite some years in the room when we talked that, first, Russia has not changed.
07:33Second, we really have to up our defence capabilities. Third, that we have to do it fast.
07:38Now, it's majority of us in the room. So, this change happened and Donald Trump helped that a lot.
07:46His methods are unorthodox, but efficient. And we, in Lithuania, especially when we see what is happening,
07:56and when we see the collateral damage that is inevitable when we live so close to war zone,
08:03we really want this to happen faster. Lithuania only in July had two Russian military drones in Lithuanian territory.
08:13One of them carried explosives. Therefore, I think we all understand that time is pressing us and that Europe is changing.
08:21Today, in the room, when we talked with all the ministers, I see that mentally we are on the same page.
08:29Financially, there is still a little bit of scattering.
08:32So, you appreciate Trump's efforts for peace, but can Europe and can you really trust that he will not sell out Ukraine and the West?
08:44I think it's going to depend quite a lot on European conviction on our, how to say that, on our engagement.
09:02If you want to be at the table, you have to be an equal partner.
09:08So, that means that the, like, I don't know, sprint that we made in the past few months is a good start, but it is not enough.
09:16So, therefore, Russia currently sees the United States as the only credible deterrent.
09:24Europe has to, as I said, grow military muscle, probably, you know, taking some, I don't know, what do you take, steroids.
09:34So, we need to be military power and steroids, regretfully.
09:39So, we saw President Trump applauding President Putin on the red carpet. Was that the right sign?
09:47I'm not going to comment on certain tactical details.
09:53For us in Lithuania, seeing this bloody murderer on the red carpet was difficult.
10:00Lithuania has history of two occupations by Russia, Russian Empire, then Soviet Russia.
10:09I come from the family, which knows on their own skin, on our own skin, we know what Russia means.
10:16So, we are never going to trust Russia. It doesn't really matter if it's Putin or somebody else.
10:22At the same time, nobody has a better alternative and the game is not over. It's still ongoing.
10:29Change of the narrative from Donald Trump regarding support to Ukraine has changed quite consistently to more support to Ukraine, including the role of the United States in the coalition of the willing.
10:45That is a very significant sign.
10:48So, you trust that this will not change again?
10:51I would not talk about trust. I would say that we are watching, we are participating, and we try to do our part. That's all that we can do at this time.
11:03And you are not worried that the US is too close to Putin.
11:10Well, in my opinion, President Trump has seen very clearly manipulations by Putin.
11:19And several comments that he has made indicate that maybe sometimes what he says publicly and what he really understands deeply may be more complicated than it seems from the first sight.
11:37Secondly, yes, of course, we are concerned. Yes, of course, we feel at least a bit anxious about the whole process.
11:46But as I said, nobody has suggested a better alternative. Nobody really has a better solution right now.
11:53So we try to go with what is happening right now, pushing hard for protection of Ukraine, pushing hard to increase support to Ukraine and well, upping our contribution to Lithuania is a small country and we are sitting on the border of Russia and Belarus.
12:15And we will contribute to the pearl format. We will contribute to acquisition of patriot systems, which Germany is initiating.
12:26So we feel that it's very important for everyone to contribute as much as possible.
12:32One thing that Putin does try to do is to dissolve our unity. And that was not such a successful endeavor that he hoped.
12:42But how united is the European Union on the secondary sanctions that you also proposed here?
12:50Secondary sanctions that means that the EU wants to punish the countries that help Russia.
12:57Let's be honest, secondary sanctions by the United States is the actual secondary sanctions that actually produce enough pain for Russian war machine.
13:09Not the European Union.
13:12Well, that would be nice too. But you know, it's a difference of having a really nuclear effect.
13:18Nobody in the world wants to feel secondary sanctions of the United States on their skin.
13:26That would be a game changer.
13:28President Zelenskyy is calling on quick decisions on security guarantees. But isn't that the second step before the first step?
13:39Isn't it necessary to have at least a ceasefire?
13:43I understand the motivation to have everything set up and ready. Because if that miracle, and in my opinion that would be a miracle, of ceasefire would happen,
13:57then if everything is set and agreed upon and ready to go, then of course we would have a very fast process.
14:03However, we all agree that security guarantee number one is strong Ukrainian army. So therefore, upping our contributions, streamlining support according to Ukrainian needs is basically what is happening right now anyways.
14:23So this is security guarantee number one. When we talk about coalition of the willing, Lithuania has assessed our contribution regarding troops, equipment enablers and financial costs quite some time ago.
14:38If there is a ceasefire, we would go to the parliament to acquire a mandate at once.
14:46So two troops on the ground. Yes. But as I said, parliamentary mandate, we are a democratic state.
14:53Me as a minister, of course, I would be happy to initiate that procedure from my side.
15:03But of course, our president would be the one who would be the main figure in that process.
15:09He was always very active in the meetings of coalition of the willing, and we would really have to do that very fast, if that happens.
15:19But madam, that is, in my opinion, one of the biggest illusions. Without pain, Russia is not going to sit at the negotiations table. Why should they?
15:30Many countries see troops on the ground as too risky because they don't want to be involved in the war with Putin. Do you understand that?
15:41Well, I think that it shows also very clearly that my colleagues understand full well that Putin, who has never kept any agreement regarding ceasefire,
15:51and we've seen that from 2014, probably wouldn't keep that one too, even if that was agreed upon. And that's why the anxiety about safety of the troops.
16:03So therefore, if we all agree that that man is not going to stop, that man is not going to keep the agreements, then probably pressure,
16:14harsher sanctions, hopefully secondary sanctions, that is the way to go forward.
16:19But even with the security guarantees, everything depends on President Trump again, because you need him and the US in too.
16:28This is one of the crucial parts ceasefire and role of United States, when we talk about that specific security guarantee,
16:36because as I said, security guarantees is a complex of measures that we are applying and will apply in the future.
16:44So first, regeneration of Ukrainian army, strong Ukrainian army, that means trained, that means supported militarily, fully equipped.
16:55So number one, strong Ukrainian army, then sanctions and pressure on Russia, that is a security guarantee, we have to stop feeding that war machine.
17:05Then it's coalition of the willing. When we talk about coalition of the willing, again, it splits into several parts.
17:12So boots on the ground is one part, another part is training. And we really need to continue that training.
17:18And we are talking about expanding the mission of European Union to training in Ukrainian territory.
17:27And did the defence ministers agree on that?
17:29We had a difficult discussion about that. And this is one of the processes that is ongoing.
17:37So many countries against it?
17:40Since that was a close discussion, let's not discuss numbers. However, let me say that absolute majority fully understand why this is necessary.
17:53And are really supportive of the idea that we should respond to Ukrainian needs.
18:00And in certain cases, ensuring that training is where it needs to be, as close as possible training.
18:09This is something that I think is much closer to conclusion than other difficult decisions.
18:17Thank you for talking to Deutsche Welle. Dovali Shakaljeni, Defence Minister of Lithuania.
18:24Thank you, madam.
18:25Danke scho.
18:26Danke.
18:27Danke.
18:28Danke.
18:29Danke.
18:30Danke.
18:31Danke.
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18:37Danke.
18:38Danke.
18:39Danke.
18:40Danke.
18:41Danke.
18:42Danke.
18:43Danke.
18:44Danke.
18:45Danke.
18:46Danke.
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