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FAT: A Documentary 2 is the sequel to the international sensation that delves deeper into the lies and myths surrounding the age-old question: What should I be eating?
“Common knowledge” regarding healthy eating has grown more and more confusing. Vinnie Tortorich and a host of health experts talk about the conflicts between plant eaters and meat eaters and how hidden machinations in the food industry are the reasons why we believe what we do about food and optimal health.
“Common knowledge” regarding healthy eating has grown more and more confusing. Vinnie Tortorich and a host of health experts talk about the conflicts between plant eaters and meat eaters and how hidden machinations in the food industry are the reasons why we believe what we do about food and optimal health.
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00:00:00the 20th century gave us so many misconceptions when it came to health one egg equals five
00:00:17cigarettes eggs cannot legally even be called safe cutting down on meat is a good idea so is
00:00:22the pendulum swinging back in the opposite direction where are we since the last movie
00:00:27came out is there progress has meat made a comeback in some cases i could say yes i swear by the
00:00:34ketogenic diet i hear more doctors talking about it the low carbohydrate keto community is based on
00:00:41science and i can see a few things moving in a direction that people want to see it move into
00:00:45there is a bottom-up revolution going on but then i see the other side of it there was another vegan
00:00:51propaganda movie that came out in this past year surprise surprise there was a product hooked to it
00:01:02the impossible burger is the world's only burger that looks handles smells cooks and tastes like
00:01:08ground beef from cows people are becoming guinea pigs completely replace animals as a food production
00:01:16technology by 2035. in fact part one we talk about the war for information but i actually think we
00:01:32also live in a war with ourselves it's almost like we're gaming the system of our own bodies we're trying
00:01:41to get our system to do what it's not supposed to do eat this eat that don't eat this don't eat
00:01:48that our program is known as a starch-based diet take this supplement it'll make your muscles grow bigger
00:01:55we have more questions than ever and the world always speeds up and it gets more frenzied all the time
00:02:01and sometimes even the people who are so-called experts don't know what's going on you suck it all up
00:02:12this study says this that study says that well that study wasn't done correctly
00:02:19this is healthy that's not healthy
00:02:24the answers we're searching for seem to have these long winding roads
00:02:27that eventually lead to nothing but maybe it doesn't have to be so hard
00:02:36in this movie we're going to expand on what we talked about in fat part one
00:02:41we're going to talk to the same experts you saw before
00:02:45but let them stretch out a little bit great we're going to discuss why some of the things we believe
00:02:51are wrong fat tends to cause you to be fat we're going to also get into why some of these things
00:02:55are right based on the research we cannot say with any certainty that eating red or processed meat
00:03:01causes cancer diabetes or heart disease and also why there's so much confusion between the two
00:03:07it doesn't have to be that divisive my name is nina teichels i'm a science journalist and author of
00:03:12a book called the big fat surprise i'm also the executive director of a group called the nutrition
00:03:17coalition which aims to ensure that our nutrition policy is evidence-based nina teichels was a one-time
00:03:24vegan she crossed over she she crossed the aisle and that led her into 10 years of research she went
00:03:30through all the papers she went through all the studies to come back to figure out where we had
00:03:35gone wrong and it's the work like her book big fat surprise that has led a lot of this pendulum swing
00:03:42in my opinion to start moving in in the right direction i got into this field just completely
00:03:47by accident i was doing a series of investigative food articles for gourmet magazine and one of them
00:03:52that was assigned to me was on trans fats well what are trans fats i had no idea researching that story
00:03:58really plunged me into the whole world of dietary fat you know which is the subject that americans
00:04:04in nutrition have obsessed about most and that really led me down the rabbit hole for nearly a
00:04:10decade i researched everything i could find about dietary fat and cholesterol when i started doing
00:04:16my research i couldn't believe the kind of reactions that i got from interviewing scientists i mean i'm the
00:04:22daughter of a scientist and um in my father's dreams journal if you open up there are math
00:04:28equations i always thought that science was full of people like him who rationally soberly would
00:04:34discuss interesting ideas and consider other ideas and change their minds based on the scientific
00:04:39observations and instead in nutrition science i couldn't believe what i found people who were afraid
00:04:45to talk to me people who said if you're going to take that line on dietary fat i can't even talk to
00:04:49you there's some huge story here if people are afraid to talk to me that means there's a really
00:04:54big story here saturated fats butter lard cheese fatty beef and poultry with the skin on all said to
00:05:01be bad for your heart but you should replace most saturated fats with more monounsaturated healthy fats
00:05:07which help reduce your risk of heart attack and stroke limit red meat dark poultry meat or poultry
00:05:12with the skin on to a serving the size of a deck of cards per day in good science you try to do everything
00:05:18you can not to go public prematurely because as soon as you go public as soon as you claim you've
00:05:23discovered something you haven't or you've realized something you don't have the evidence to support
00:05:28all these consequences kick in and make it virtually impossible to back out of my name is gary taubes
00:05:35i'm an investigative journalist co-founder of a not-for-profit research organization called the
00:05:41nutrition science initiative author of good calories bad calories of why we get fat of the case against
00:05:48sugar gary taubes is uh largely considered a lightning rod gary has never shied away from media he will
00:05:55go up against anyone because what he has on his side is a little thing called facts i often ask myself
00:06:02when i was writing good calories bad calories it's like i have friends who are sort of have conspiratorial
00:06:06turns of mind where they think people do things because they're vino and they're getting paid by
00:06:10industry and i just think that i don't see any conspiracy there i don't really think the industry had much to
00:06:15do with i think the industry was given the food industry was given this enormous gift of this bad
00:06:19science and these people just you know literally could not have caused more harm if there had been
00:06:25a conspiracy at least if there had been a conspiracy enterprising washington post reporters could have
00:06:31interviewed the right people and in garages in washington and and exposed it my name is dr eric westman
00:06:38i'm an associate professor of medicine at duke university medical center
00:06:42in durham north carolina the u.s government got involved in creating guidelines for what people
00:06:48should eat and it was not based on science what can you say about eric westman you know the original
00:06:56atkins diet has been around since the early 1970s but when they wanted to update it they had to find
00:07:02a doctor to write that eric westman is that guy he wrote the new atkins for the new you
00:07:07he also started his own little obesity clinic over on the east coast the guy is just phenomenal i was
00:07:15involved in research communities where we would look at a guideline and see that as a straw man as
00:07:21something to either prove or disprove so unfortunately the research that was going to support and back up the
00:07:27low-fat guideline never proved that it was healthy what's the information people are getting about their
00:07:33health because everybody wants to know what does it mean to be healthy and that's such a difficult
00:07:37question to answer they're interested in their health they've been searching for answers and they
00:07:42they found an answer that has actually done them more harm than good in the long run brett shear was
00:07:47this great guy i met when he came on my fitness confidential podcast and just fell in love with this guy he's
00:07:53a cardiologist who doesn't believe that red meat will kill you he also feels the same way about saturated fat and
00:07:59cholesterol which is a paradigm shift when you think about it because there are not many cardiologists
00:08:04out there that are thinking that way hormones in our body play a huge role so things that raise our
00:08:10insulin are going to encourage our bodies to store more fat so just because you're taking fat out of
00:08:16something and then you're enhancing it with increased carbs and sugars that is actually making this problem
00:08:22worse not helping it clearly this idea that we are supposed to avoid fat has been a major factor in
00:08:31causing uh paradoxically the obesity epidemic that's the big myth the idea that it's it's dangerous to eat
00:08:40natural foods with fat and cholesterol in it andreas ianfeld is a great guy who noticed that the more
00:08:47medicine he handed out the sicker people got and he felt that there had to be a better way
00:08:52so he started working with food you know pulling certain things out of people's diets adding other
00:08:58things and the certain things were you know junk foods and sugars and grains and this sort of thing
00:09:04and he started adding in red meat and fish and more fatty foods and noticed that people were healing right
00:09:10up if you avoid fat you end up being hungrier and you would have to eat more of something else to feel
00:09:17satisfied and that's something else is carbohydrates and our society the way it looks
00:09:22you end up eating a lot more sugar processed carbs that is probably the cause of the obesity epidemic
00:09:28today by this point everyone knows there's an obesity epidemic and while we can argue all day about
00:09:34fat versus low fat pretty much everyone agrees that sugar is bad for you sugar makes insulin work better and cures
00:09:42diabetics well almost everyone but we'll get to that later bmi is one of the most commonly used
00:09:48measurements to determine if you're obese but the newest research says that bmi may not be reliable
00:09:54the biggest problem with getting useful data has to do with doing the math honestly we actually have
00:10:00a problem of philosophy of science right now we have a replication crisis where things can't be
00:10:04replicated we have people who do research that do something called p mining the p is the sort of the
00:10:08statistical significance of your study p hacking is manipulating data or analyses to artificially
00:10:14get significant p values you can actually get your data and then find the statistical model that fits
00:10:20best to prove that your data is working i'm dr drew pinski i'm an internist and addictionologist dr
00:10:25drew look like everyone else in la uh we love dr drew all those years of love line but the fact that he he
00:10:33does what he does with addiction medicine and the lives he has saved i'm happy to call drew pinski a
00:10:39friend the way we examine populations we're looking at sort of average effects on on the the mean so
00:10:46people on either end may have very different physiologies that have very different sorts of
00:10:50interventions that were completely missing there's really a a crisis coming in the philosophy of
00:10:56science intelligent people should know the difference between causality and correlation
00:11:01and weirdly enough in this field of nutrition because it's so hard to do the necessary experiments
00:11:06what you end up with are correlations between health and disease and one of the correlations is
00:11:13that people who consume a lot of artificial sweeteners tend to be more obese and diabetic than people who don't
00:11:20artificial sweeteners have been a staple for dieters since the 1980s and there's a real debate about the harm
00:11:27they cause the problem is if you think about who uses artificial sweeteners are the people who have
00:11:32weight problems the people who can't control their weight drinking full sugared sodas and so you have
00:11:38no idea of which way the causality runs whether these people are unhealthy because they consume artificial
00:11:44sweeteners or whether artificial and they consume artificial sweeteners because they're unhealthy and
00:11:49they're predisposed to get fat the major points about your diet really sort of hover around two things
00:11:57fat fruits and vegetables you've got to really get your saturated fat and trans fat as low as you
00:12:03possibly can and we know that if we do that you can actually decrease your risk of coronary heart disease
00:12:0940 50 percent there is a correlation between obesity and heart disease in that people with obesity often have
00:12:16other risk factors like high blood sugar how high blood pressure dyslipidemia meaning you know bad
00:12:25cholesterol profile and all these things increase the risk of heart disease it's so easy to blame heart
00:12:32disease on fat let's take a hamburger for instance they'll say well red meat is bad for you because it's in a
00:12:38hamburger they won't take into account that there was ketchup mayonnaise a big breaded bun and all of the
00:12:45the other condiments around it and guess what most people never eat a hamburger without french fries
00:12:51but they never blame it on the seed oils they never blame it on the bread they never blame it on any of
00:12:56the goop that's put on it they just go to the meat and say meat bad meat causes heart disease it makes no
00:13:04sense it's black and white thinking combined with numerous studies coming out of respected names like harvard that
00:13:10lead people to believe that things may not be true what does harvard have to do with this the role that
00:13:16harvard plays in the nutrition story is a sad and powerful one extremely powerful if you compare butter
00:13:24with calories from refined starch and sugar it's going to be pretty much a wash they'll both have adverse
00:13:29impacts on metabolic factors and on risk of heart disease and diabetes harvard is home to two of the
00:13:36largest nutritional epidemiological databases in the country what is that that's a kind of science
00:13:42where they take a large group of people and they follow them for years and they ask them what they
00:13:47eat and then they see who dies or has a heart attack or gets cancer this is a kind of science that is so
00:13:52fundamentally weak right i mean people are asked how many cups of spare ribs did you have in the last
00:13:58year how many peaches or how many plums did you eat on average per week hundreds of questions well
00:14:03people first of all people lie about what they eat they they want to please the they want to please
00:14:08themselves or they want to please the interviewers and this has been documented in science secondly that
00:14:13that dietary data even when they try to validate they find that it is highly unreliable so you're
00:14:20talking about very very weak evidence right and then this kind of science epidemiology can never prove
00:14:27cause and effect it can only show an association so it was only ever meant to generate hypotheses
00:14:33which then go on to be tested the way you test something properly to show cause and effect is
00:14:37to test it in a randomized controlled clinical trial this weak science that harvard has been
00:14:42publishing on dominates the whole nutrition landscape and it is what is echoed throughout all of the media
00:14:50oh this is only association but not causation but then they just breeze right by that with headlines
00:14:55that say things like coconut oil kills you when that headline should read coconut oil we have found a
00:15:01small weak association between coconut oil and increased risk of cardiovascular disease people
00:15:07who eat a lot of red meat who are those people those are the people who have ignored their doctor's
00:15:12orders for the last 35 years that means they do a lot of other unhealthy things they probably drink too
00:15:18much they don't go to cultural events they don't follow their doctor's orders they don't take their
00:15:22medicine they don't have happy failed family lives maybe they live next to a toxic waste dump because
00:15:27they're poor or whatever and then they come out with a finding that said red meat eaters people eat
00:15:32a lot of red meat are you know tend to die earlier well was it the meat was it the unhealthy lifestyle
00:15:38was it the excessive binge drinking you know it could have been any one of these other things
00:15:42but that is why this science is so fundamentally weak your overall lifestyle food just being one factor
00:15:49is going to determine your overall health if you eat well change your habits don't smoke maybe start
00:15:55exercising well you'll be healthier the problem is that studies get done where people get healthier by
00:16:01changing everything about their life and then the results are touted as food being the reason they got
00:16:07healthier this is especially rampant among vegan studies there have been some studies in the past
00:16:14some small studies that have had some problems with them that have been propagated over and over
00:16:18again showing that diet can reverse heart disease and a big one it was the ornish studies in the 90s
00:16:23if you eat more calories than you burn then you gain weight fat tends to cause you to be fat because
00:16:29fat is very dense in calories fat has nine calories per gram whereas protein and carbs have only four less
00:16:34than half so an optimal diet is low in fat low in the bad carbs high in the good carbs and enough
00:16:40of the of the good fats and then again it's a spectrum when you move in this direction you're
00:16:44going to lose weight you're going to feel better and you're going to gain health what's frequently
00:16:47lost in that is that that was a whole lifestyle program so they got people to quit smoking exercise
00:16:54more manage their stress and follow a vegetarian diet but what's come out of that is that a vegetarian diet
00:17:00reverses heart disease and and you can't say that from that type of a study a vegan approach a
00:17:06vegetarian approach is consistent with standard dietary guidelines and the question is is that really
00:17:12a healthy approach i'm dr jeff gerber i'm a board certified family doctor from denver colorado
00:17:17i've been a doctor for over 30 years about 20 years ago i realized i didn't know much about nutrition
00:17:22so i took it upon myself to learn more and i use nutrition as a tool to treat and prevent chronic disease
00:17:29i look at jeffrey gerber and i think hero he looked around and went wait a minute i'm healing
00:17:34people with food what i'm doing what i was taught in school is not working instead of just going down
00:17:40that road the way the aha or the ada does where they just keep spewing the same lies hoping for
00:17:45different results jeffrey gerber looked around and said hey we need to do something about this we think
00:17:51especially with vegan diets it's quite a challenge because you're often deficient of macronutrients that you
00:17:57would get from animal based proteins most people tell me they feel great when they go on a vegan
00:18:02diet only to feel bad later my view has always been well when you go on a vegan diet you're cutting out
00:18:08a bunch of crap a bunch of processed food in your life but at some point it's not sustainable i think
00:18:14there are lots of different approaches that can be healthy you could even do an extreme diet like a
00:18:19vegan diet and feel great because you're not having sugar you're reducing the starches that raise the
00:18:25blood sugar but in my experience some people will blindly follow certain diets including the vegan
00:18:31diet and gain 50 to 100 pounds and never even think that the vegan diet might be the cause because
00:18:38they know it's healthy because everyone else says it's healthy you know it must be the the plastic in my
00:18:43my bottle that's causing the obesity it must be the the microbiome or that i'm not sleeping when
00:18:49actually it was the food that they were eating as a cardiologist i've come across a number of
00:18:54patients who are vegans and of course i i read the literature every day that supports a vegan diet
00:19:00for heart health unfortunately for a lot of vegans it takes a lot of work to maintain a vegan lifestyle
00:19:07you have to think about food all the time you have to prepare your food all the time you are hungry
00:19:11all the time a number of people have decreased energy so i think that is a downfall to the vegan way of
00:19:17life not that there can't be healthy vegans of course there can but the question is for how long today
00:19:22we're going to explore all of the vitamins and nutrients you might need on a vegan diet vitamin
00:19:27b12 calcium iron choline omega-3 fatty acids iodine zinc selenium they don't make a very good argument
00:19:34and especially like they want to come after meat as being unhealthy in multiple ways leading to heart
00:19:42attack and to diabetes and you have to understand that a lot of their comments is are based on the
00:19:48ethical treatment of animals and we feel the same way that we do want to treat animals ethically but
00:19:54that has nothing to do with health can we prosper and thrive by feasting and effect on on animals and
00:20:04i i mean that that worries me personally as well part of the movement is driven by the idea that
00:20:10eating animal products are unhealthy which i think is just bad science but unfortunately the leaders the
00:20:16proponents of the vegetarian vegan movement don't like the argument we're making because we're saying
00:20:21not only are we arguing that the problem isn't red meat and animal products but we're arguing that
00:20:26people can be very healthy and perhaps healthiest eating animal product rich diets one of the questions
00:20:32today is why we're so anti-red meat i've really wondered about that that goes back to the 1970s when
00:20:37they're really the kind of the burgeoning of a vegetarian movement in the united states in my hometown
00:20:42berkeley california that was the time the peace movement um we had just come out of you know two
00:20:48world wars and we wanted to make peace not war meat has always throughout all of history in every
00:20:55culture been associated with virility it's the food of warriors it's the food of people who make war
00:21:01you know it gives men and women muscle mass it makes them strong for instance in the maasai warriors
00:21:07who were studied rigorously by um the university of vanderbilt scientists in the 1970s they found
00:21:12that the warrior class but not the women the warriors consumed only meat meat milk and blood was
00:21:20their entire diet so now we're being told americans are being told in the 1970s not to eat meat because
00:21:26we want to make peace instead this was sort of our modern idea of masculinity and it totally makes sense
00:21:32for a culture that does not want to be at war it's so interesting if you look at the way we used to
00:21:37eat before the obesity and the health epidemic and red meat was plentiful then and then when things
00:21:44changed with the mcgovern report with ansel key's seven country studies with president eisenhower's
00:21:50heart attack with that conglomeration of events now fat being demonized and red meat being demonized
00:21:56that's when everything changed and it happened to coincide with the health epidemic that we're having now
00:22:02red meat is back in vogue again i mean with the paleo diet you have low carb diets you have atkins
00:22:07you even have my very own no sugars no grains approach to eating all allows red meat so everything
00:22:13is back on the table again but it wasn't always that way for red meat one of the factors that
00:22:18did emerge as being related to cancer risk was consumption of red meat especially red meat a processed
00:22:25red meat in relation to risk of colorectal cancer and some other cancers i think the bias against
00:22:31eating red meat has come from nutritional epidemiology these studies look at associations
00:22:36between what people eat and then look at the effect on the health over a long period of time
00:22:42but in the clinical research world these are thought of as relatively weak studies and the association
00:22:50level has been really low for red meat and cancer for example why can't people eat meat and vegetables
00:22:57why is this controversial it's food both are real and both can fit into your diet this either or
00:23:04argument that's going on has nothing to do with health and more to do with ideology they were yelling
00:23:10like um don't eat chickens don't eat meat and i was like well i love chicken there's two two these are
00:23:19two distinct phenomena i think one is this identification with a group and tribalism around which diet is just yet
00:23:25another manifestation of that but this need to move from fad to fad to fad that's consumerism that is
00:23:33us needing a solution to how we're feeling or looking or how we think about ourselves with something now
00:23:39buy something now do something now and fix everything fix how i'm feeling now and fad diets
00:23:46suit that beautifully i think the media has a lot to do with our ill psychological well-being um to to blame
00:23:52diet and sedentary lifestyle i mean i i've heard blame on tv my entire life but it's us i mean
00:23:58look people that create media only create stuff that we watch i mean it's us that they're creating
00:24:04it for if we didn't watch they wouldn't create it the way they do so we need to watch ourselves and
00:24:09learn how to train ourselves not to consume this garbage in such a unthoughtful way bad news for bacon
00:24:15and sausage lovers the world health organization says those foods can cause colon and stomach cancer
00:24:20again a lot of this information does come from media who loves to tout institutions like harvard
00:24:27whenever they put out dietary findings harvard said this harvard said that why shouldn't we believe
00:24:34harvard walter willett of harvard university is widely considered to be the most influential
00:24:41person in nutrition science today he presides over the largest two what's called epidemiological databases
00:24:48in the country and those databases you have to understand all they need to do is to find an
00:24:53association it's just a whole bunch of statistics in there they get from dietary questionnaires
00:24:58and they can just like a mimeograph machine they can just pull out anything like you know meat is
00:25:01associated with this outcome or vegetables are associated with this outcome or french fried potatoes
00:25:06lead to more this kind of cancer they can run those statistical tests all the time right there's
00:25:11associations so they're publishing all the time well in science sort of the frequency of publication is
00:25:17part of what makes you powerful and compare that to somebody who's doing clinical trials like they
00:25:22might do a clinical trial and it takes them two years and that's where they're actually feeding people
00:25:26and they they change their diets and they give them counseling they get one paper out of that
00:25:31walter willett really believes a vegetarian diet high in whole grains is what the diet that is the
00:25:37healthiest and he wants everybody to follow that diet one i think important concept that's developed over the
00:25:43last decade or so is that diet quality the combination of foods the pattern of foods
00:25:49is important in directly influencing disease risk but also in helping us better control our body weight
00:25:56so these we used to think of were sort of separate things but now they're intertwined and the kind of
00:26:01dietary pattern that doctor who was talking about like a mediterranean diet that has lots of fruits and
00:26:06vegetables low amounts of red meat whole grains that actually makes it easier for us to control our
00:26:13weight than eating a diet of refined foods that's directly unhealthy but also makes it more
00:26:18difficult to control our weight what i found in my research is that harvard has also received a
00:26:22great deal of money from one of the largest vegetable oil manufacturers in the world called unilever
00:26:28willet is a scientific advisor to numerous industry-backed consortiums that promote grain consumption
00:26:36like oldways and the international carbohydrate quality consortium all funded by barilla pasta and
00:26:43kellogg's and all these carbohydrate makers that have willet on as their top spokesperson or or top
00:26:50advisor organizing conferences for them and in 2013 i think when nature magazine when they had a rare
00:26:56editorial kind of critique of walter willet they said one of the things that he did was that he continually
00:27:03simplified his data and published data that really ought not to be published how could we find out
00:27:10who to trust besides your book there's overload of information anybody can set themselves up as being an
00:27:18expert and the public is understandably confused it's interesting that there's such a crusade against
00:27:25red meat versus other meats and this really comes down to the fact that red meat has saturated fat
00:27:31and that we've been told that saturated fat is bad is there a scenario where we shouldn't eat
00:27:36saturated fat there's no reason to to fear saturated fat it's just fine to eat it's uh it's not an issue
00:27:44for health if you look at the medical studies that have tested this hypothesis if you
00:27:50bake them all together and look at all of the data there's no effect on health really people have been
00:27:56warned for years about the dangers of eating too many saturated fats and the risks they pose for
00:28:02heart disease but a new analysis of more than 70 studies finds that saturated fats do not necessarily
00:28:09lead to greater problems with heart health
00:28:18my strength in my background is in clinical medicine using a keto diet to help fix obesity diabetes
00:28:25and many other health problems i've learned a lot by reading the books good calories bad
00:28:31calories by gary taubbs and the big fat surprise by nina teicholz and one of the things i learned
00:28:37is that the emphasis against saturated fat is also a political emphasis so that because america doesn't
00:28:45make lots of saturated fat kinds of products and because the nutritional epidemiologists are funded by
00:28:53other companies that make products that don't have saturated fats there's a bias against them which
00:29:00is not scientific if saturated fat raises your cholesterol and if cholesterol can in some situations
00:29:08be related to increased heart risk then anything that is a saturated fat must be related to increased
00:29:15heart risk it's this line of illogical thinking that has led institutions like the american heart association
00:29:23to demonize um to demonize anything that's a saturated fat you know nothing against medical
00:29:28doctors it's just that when you know when you're in a club and they keep telling you the same thing in
00:29:33the club and this is the only way it is and you never see any other viewpoint you just start believing
00:29:39religion works like that you know you will be in one religion at the expense of every other religion
00:29:46and even though they all say pretty much the same thing some people will look at their religion and go
00:29:51your religion is not good because mine's the best i tell people who are in my clinic who are working
00:29:56with other doctors and cardiologists uh in particular to just tell them they're they're doing a modified
00:30:02mediterranean diet and the other doctor will go oh well that's fine and they won't ask anymore because
00:30:08they're not really sure what the modified mediterranean diet is but they know it's good so i know it kind
00:30:14of plays the politics a little bit but we're in that space where um doctors sometimes knee jerk against
00:30:20things that they don't know and using familiar terms can actually make it easier for my patients
00:30:26to to not get pushback from other doctors i guess the other question though is it something magical
00:30:32that's going to help everybody shed pounds and feel wonderful and the truth may not be that far either
00:30:39but it's it's important that we we can't go out and demonize one type of food simply because we think
00:30:46there's a theory that it might be related to something i mean people listen strongly to the
00:30:51recommendations of these guidelines the vast majority of calories are really coming from bad stuff
00:30:56and so if you're looking at red meat and don't specify the comparison you may not see much with red
00:31:02meat because you're you're comparing it with a lot of other bad stuff in a diet a lot of refined starch
00:31:07sugar uh partially hydrogenated oils epidemiology you know you always find at the bottom of one of the
00:31:13harvard papers uh we have to you know our caveat is that it's only an association it does not prove
00:31:18causation more studies are needed but if you look at the press release that accompanies it uh the
00:31:23headline is almost always like you know oh coconut oil causes heart disease well there's nothing wrong
00:31:29with coconut oil it's perfectly safe and actually very healthy to use in your diet and in cooking good
00:31:36for your skin not good in your body but we always hear about these controversies coming out
00:31:42and it only has to do with the fact that other industries who are making hydrogenated oils don't
00:31:48want this pure natural oil to be anywhere near their product the big problem with coconut oil is it's
00:31:54high in saturated fats and as the american heart association tells us saturated fat can increase your
00:32:00bad cholesterol and that can lead to heart disease coconut and palm oil have definitely been polarizing
00:32:07oils over the past few years and it's so interesting to see why you know they're first they're vegetarian
00:32:14based oils so based on that you would think that they should be healthy if the myth of vegetarian being
00:32:21the best diet is true but because they have saturated fats the american heart association came out against
00:32:27them cautioning their their ingestion because they have saturated fat so it's it's that transitive
00:32:33property of math that doesn't always work i was invited once to speak at a palm oil conference by
00:32:40the manufacturers of palm oil and they explained to me that they were having difficulty getting through
00:32:45a sort of taboo or cartel against palm oil because of the saturated fat in the food and because we know
00:32:53saturated fat's bad and all that and i think it was in nina teicholtz's book where i first learned that
00:32:58the whole campaign against so-called tropical oils which is coconut oil and palm oil in my research
00:33:05i discovered that this was something of just a trade war between industries and it's been going on
00:33:14actually since the 1920s and 30s palm oil i think it was at the time started being imported in increasing
00:33:20amounts for malaysia and the um the vegetable oil industry said we can't have this happen they're
00:33:26taking over our market share and underwent this huge campaign basically to just slander these oils
00:33:32and and actually i think that what they did is they put a tax on it at that point they they got the
00:33:37government to tax these oils because they didn't want the competition fast forward to 1980s there's a
00:33:44rise in the use again of coconut oil and palm oil because they are solid safe fats so they're good for
00:33:51popping popcorn in movie theaters they were used by all the packaged food companies like craft nabisco
00:33:56use them for their cereals and their anything that needed to stay safe and solid on a shelf in a
00:34:01supermarket so there was started to be this increase in the importation again of coconut oil and palm oil
00:34:07well that really threatened the uh makers of soybean oil and the soybean industry because soybean is far
00:34:14and away the biggest oil that americans consume so they started a campaign against coconut oil and and
00:34:20palm oil they call them the tropical oils and they this was a campaign really a trade war campaign
00:34:26sort of in the shroud of a health concern issue so if they're going to say something like that they
00:34:33should have very strong evidence behind it to back it up and there is no evidence to demonize these oils
00:34:39the way they have they can be a very good part of a healthy diet and there's no reason at all to be
00:34:45worried about them as it's been proposed there's a lot of bad science that i think implicates saturated fat
00:34:53and leads to this idea that we should replace it with vegetable oils oh those must be good for us
00:34:57because they're vegetables in fact they're not from vegetables they're from seeds and beans so you
00:35:02know sunflower safflower corn soybean they're all beans and seeds and you have to use high heat and a heavy
00:35:09metal chelate in order to get the oils out of them winterized deodorized and stabilized i mean they
00:35:15initially come out of this like gray disgusting liquid and then they have to be turned into something that
00:35:20might seem like it could be consumed for humans and they've also gone through name changes now
00:35:23they're trying to call them plant oils i think to seem even more appealing if you compare saturated
00:35:28fat with healthy plant oils using those healthy plant oils will definitely reduce the risk of
00:35:34heart disease while they're improving blood lipids at the same time you know healthy people tend to eat
00:35:39vegetable oils it's the gist of the problem when you do these studies what you do is you tell people
00:35:44how to eat so in the 1970s you tell them they should avoid saturated fat and eat vegetable oils and
00:35:49then you follow them for 30 years and lo and behold you found out that 30 years later the healthier
00:35:53people have indeed been doing exactly what you told them to do because they're health conscious by
00:35:58the end of the 1980s between that campaign and various other efforts to get rid of tropical oils
00:36:03most of the tropical oils had been taken out of the food supply and so they're avoiding saturated fats
00:36:08and using vegetable oils to cook with instead and they're healthier but that doesn't mean they got
00:36:15healthier because they use the vegetable oils you know i do wonder if the recent outcry against tropical
00:36:21oils that you've seen by the american heart association and by harvard i really wonder to what extent we're
00:36:26seeing just a redux of this same trade war i know that harvard is funded by vegetable oil companies
00:36:32that compete with tropical oils so one really has to wonder if they're now sort of trotting out
00:36:39scientists to protect the domestic american soybean and soybean oil industries so there are
00:36:45two changes that i think are necessary first we need to get away from this idea that saturated fat
00:36:49is bad for us it's really not a major factor we need to accept that saturated fat can be a part of
00:36:55a healthy diet second thing we need to get away from is this idea that is all about calories that just
00:37:01by counting calories eating less and running more you would magically sort of lose weight it's really
00:37:08not effective for the vast majority of people and we need to focus more on the hormonal regulation of
00:37:13weight live in a way that makes our body normalize the hormones including the fast-storing hormone
00:37:20insulin so that it becomes much easier to maintain a good weight the fact of the matter is exercise is
00:37:26very important i always call it the fountain of youth the problem is is that it's not good for weight
00:37:31loss we've been teaching people you have to exercise you have to exercise and i've had people who
00:37:37can't exercise because of a bum knee or or just they don't like it and they don't even try to
00:37:43lose weight or fix their diabetes because they've been told they have to exercise in fact this is
00:37:48perpetuated by a lot of doctors as well and because it's worked for them they think it'll work for
00:37:53other people now i'm a big proponent of exercise and i think exercise is crucial for a healthy overall
00:37:59lifestyle but it's not the go-to way to lose weight it was in the best interest of these snack companies
00:38:06and the companies making the high carbohydrate low-fat foods it was in their best interest to say
00:38:12as long as you're exercising and as long as you're burning calories and you can eat whatever you want
00:38:17and however much you want that's what padded their bottom line and that's what sold more products and
00:38:22that's what helped perpetuate this myth that exercise was the best thing you could do for your health and
00:38:27you could exercise away any amount of poor dietary indiscretion in theory the idea makes a lot of
00:38:33sense you burn calories through exercise which must lead to fat loss the laws of thermodynamics is a good
00:38:40idea it just doesn't work here you cannot outrun a bad diet so modern nutrition science begins in the
00:38:46late 1860s with the invention by german researchers of devices called calorimeters that allow you to measure the
00:38:54energy expended by a large animal like a dog or a human so you live inside these rooms and you can get
00:39:01a measurement of how much energy is expended and so by the 1860s the nutrition community for the first
00:39:07time ever can measure the energy that people consume in foods you burn the foods in what's called a bomb
00:39:13calorimeter and you measure the heat release and that tells you how much energy was in the foods
00:39:17and now you can measure the energy out and for the next 50 to 60 years all of nutrition science
00:39:23all of nutrition science was basically measuring energy in and energy out and vitamin and mineral
00:39:29deficiency diseases and protein requirements and a little bit about things like fiber and so by the
00:39:37early 1900s when researchers clinical investigators physicians interested in these problems are trying to
00:39:44come up with a hypothesis of obesity and relate it to the food we consume all they have are energy in
00:39:52energy out vitamins minerals protein fiber and they can't figure out a way that vitamins and minerals
00:39:58and protein and fiber can play a meaningful role in obesity so they end up with energy in and energy out
00:40:03that's it that's because that's what they can measure and that becomes a theory ever since and it gets
00:40:08locked in and it stays locked and that's the weird thing in 1921 22 the hormone insulin is discovered
00:40:13the science of endocrinology of hormones and hormone related diseases starts to explode
00:40:19and but you still can't measure the impact of food on the hormone levels in the blood until the 1960s
00:40:28so it's only in the 1960s that you have another way that you can study that food influences what our body
00:40:35is doing and by that time we've had 50 years of thinking of obesities and energy balance disorder we
00:40:41realize that if you change the hormonal status elevate insulin levels depress glucagon levels you
00:40:48know growth hormone is playing a role in our foods are influencing all of that nobody cares it's just
00:40:54too complicated it's through this energy balance idea is too big to fail and then diet book doctors get
00:41:00involved like first herman tallor writes a book called calories don't count and then the infamous robert
00:41:06atkins and they read the research and they say wait a minute wait a minute it's not about how much you
00:41:11eat it's it's a hormonal thing it's the carbs are the problem and get rid of the carbs and now the
00:41:17research community doesn't like this idea because it's coming from these cowboy diet book doctors and
00:41:23they don't want to listen to them some very petty human emotions feed into this idea that we should
00:41:28continue to tell people to do the wrong thing and they should do the wrong thing and if it fails we can
00:41:34blame them we don't have to never think that our advice is wrong because we've got the laws of
00:41:38thermodynamics propping them up we always get into this argument over what's the best fuel to put in
00:41:44your body one thing everyone agrees on is that sugar is bad for you and when i say everyone i mean almost
00:41:51everyone some doctors including one who proposes a vegan diet says sugar is not the major cause of
00:41:58diabetes you really have to see this to believe it carbohydrate including pure white sugar increases
00:42:06the sensitivity insulin it was published by brunzel from university of washington in the new england
00:42:13journal of medicine in i think 78 brunzel's his name he took type 2 diabetics he made a synthetic diet
00:42:2245 percent sugar and then double white sugar multi dextrose plain table sugar doubled it to 85 percent
00:42:30white sugar every aspect of the diabetes improved walter kempner back in the 40s and 50s published his
00:42:38results on treating type 2 diabetics with rice table sugar fruit and juice and kempner knew back in the 50s
00:42:49that sugar makes insulin work better and cures diabetics but you see we've got it entirely
00:42:56backwards these days thinking sugar causes diabetes you know it's just it's so backward and bizarre
00:43:02nobody stands a chance i didn't think we would have to clarify what sugar does to your body but here are
00:43:07just a few reasons why it's bad for you some people easily understand that sugar is bad and they can avoid
00:43:14foods that have sugar the sugar-free things and the problem is it doesn't explain all of the
00:43:20carbohydrate effect on the blood sugar so starches including the breads pasta rice fruit those things
00:43:27raise the blood sugar just like real sugar or actual sugar and even honey natural sugar raises the blood
00:43:34sugar one of my favorite things when you walk into eric westman's office and i've never walked in but
00:43:38people who have apparently there's a sign on the wall that says that fruit is nature's candy the reason
00:43:44that sign is up there is that most people don't realize that having fruit can raise the blood sugar
00:43:51can make diabetes worse can lead to obesity it raises your blood sugar increases the fat storing hormone
00:43:59insulin and puts the body into fat storing mode fat in the liver if you eat a lot of sugar you would
00:44:05end up with a fatty liver and that increases um fasting insulin levels so you get insulin resistance
00:44:14and high insulin levels all through the day sugar is addictive and it's it may not be addictive for
00:44:20everyone just like alcohol isn't addictive for everyone but it's addictive for a large number of people
00:44:25i mean i've been spending the past at least 17 years as psychiatrist talking to talking to people
00:44:31thousands and thousands of people hearing their stories and when i talk to people about food
00:44:36there are many clues to addiction in their stories my name is georgia ead i'm a psychiatrist georgia ead
00:44:42the only words i could come up with for her is pioneer she's a psychiatrist she's a medical doctor
00:44:49and as a psychiatrist the first thing that happens if you go to one of these people with a problem
00:44:54is they're looking to put you on a medication georgia not the same thing georgia is there uh trying
00:45:01to figure out if she can heal you number one without medication number two which is as important as number
00:45:06one let's try to do it with food being preoccupied with food um feeling guilty after eating uh food
00:45:13that they think is quote bad for them um and you know spending a lot of time thinking about food
00:45:19that would be better spent doing other things and you know i think that it's one of the things that
00:45:24people really want a lot of help with but when i'm when i'm talking to people about um food i hear the
00:45:30same patterns as if i'm talking to somebody with any other substance abuse disorder for the average
00:45:34person that reward is enough to keep you going keep you going and i can tell you personally when
00:45:40i get off carbohydrates and i've known this for years you have a withdrawal i get i get all the
00:45:45same symptoms milder mind you again so i don't like too powerful connection with addiction per se
00:45:49that minimizes the misery of my patients but i when i come off carbohydrates get irritable discontent i have
00:45:56i have pain i have sleeplessness i have anxiety opiate withdrawal i have full-on opiate withdrawal for
00:46:00three days every time that's what we're trying to protect against on a keto diet to try to stop that
00:46:06raise of blood sugar to prevent diabetes or treat it and to prevent the insulin rise which is the
00:46:13hormonal state of creating obesity we'll go into depth about the ketogenic diet momentarily but we
00:46:19first have to understand that most of our problems stems from what industry is doing and as i said in
00:46:24fat part one industry is a machine it's not a person it's a thing that's designed to make money
00:46:30and that's it it's not good or bad it just is it's tough if you're the sugar industry but the beverage
00:46:37industry was always happy to sell artificially sweetened beverages because artificial sweeteners
00:46:41were cheaper than sugar if nothing else they didn't care what people drank as long as they drank their
00:46:45products grain industry they could create grain that's got a lower glycemic index you know the lesson
00:46:51of the 1980s when we told people to create low-fat foods they were happy to do it
00:46:57and they changed the way we eat the problem is they changed the way we eat for the worst i think
00:47:03the tide is starting to shift somewhat people now realize that added sugars are not good i mean there
00:47:10was a point it sounds ridiculous to say but there was a point where people didn't quite realize added
00:47:14sugars were unhealthy for you eating sugar is not essential whatsoever and in fact our body will make
00:47:20sugar at a certain point from eating protein the institute of medicine itself acknowledges that there is no
00:47:26essential need for any carbohydrate the body needs a certain amount of glucose for the functioning of
00:47:32its brain and its eyes but your body is able to make that glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis
00:47:39from the protein that you consume gluconeogenesis is the process by which your body will take excess
00:47:46protein and convert it into glucose many people wonder if there is a need for carbohydrate in the diet at
00:47:53all in other words is there an essential carbohydrate meaning the body can't make it so you have to eat
00:47:59it and that is in debate it's a it's not clear the one of the most unbiased sources of nutritional
00:48:06information the institute of medicine actually says pretty clearly there is no essential carbohydrate you
00:48:12don't have to eat carbohydrate based on that i wrote a letter to the editor some years ago just questioning
00:48:19whether carbohydrate was essential it's interesting that that letter has been cited many many times
00:48:25it was just a letter to the editor the science in regard to how you create an essential nutrient and
00:48:32what help what you call a macronutrient so when you're on a keto diet your macronutrients are proteins
00:48:39and fats the idea that sugar had any benefit actually stems from fallacies propagated in the 1970s
00:48:46ads in magazines saying things like sugar can be the willpower you need to under eat there's a famous
00:48:52headline for an fda study that hilariously reads government gives sugar a clean bill of health
00:48:58that clean bill of health was at the amount of sugar that the fda was estimating we were consuming at the
00:49:04time which was they said was 40 pounds per capita per year which was probably uh 40 to 60 pounds less than we
00:49:15were consuming and then they said we don't know what would happen if we were to actually consume more
00:49:19than 40 pounds per capita and virtually the year that they made that claim sugar consumption then
00:49:25starts to skyrocket the reliable data you have is on what's called food availability how much sugar is
00:49:30being made available to the american public by the industry and by imports and that number around 1800 was
00:49:39four pounds by 1984 when the fda said it was 40 the food availability numbers were already about 120
00:49:49pounds per capita and they estimated that we were consuming about a third of that they're taking
00:49:55what they know which is how much is made available it's a reliable number and you could use to compute
00:50:01trends from and then they're creating this estimate of how much we actually consume and then say 40 pounds
00:50:06doesn't sound like a lot but it's kind of a meaningless number because you have nothing to compare it to
00:50:11it's certainly 10 to 20 times larger than what we were consuming 150 years earlier
00:50:18they started doing this in the 1940s during world war ii because we had to know how much
00:50:22food was available and what we could expect to deal with food rationing during the war and they kept
00:50:29it up religiously since the 1940s and they backdated it to 1907 to get a feel for what
00:50:35had happened in the previous war in world war one and you know to get this history and so if you
00:50:41accept the backdated data from 1907 it looks as though we used to be eating a lot less meat then
00:50:49and then we added meat to our diets we added animal products and it went along with this epidemic of
00:50:56heart disease that appeared to emerge after the 1920s and the arguments i make in my book is both the
00:51:03usda data is is faulty and perhaps what you have is a correlation again between two things change in
00:51:10diet over time and change in health status and it doesn't tell you that there's any causality between
00:51:19the two it just tells you they're correlated now you can generate a hypothesis and say we think meat
00:51:24consumption causes heart disease and then you could do an experiment which is called a randomized control
00:51:29trial to test that hypothesis and that experiment has never been done as we discussed in the last
00:51:35film money has a lot to do with this when you don't spend the money on the studies it's easy to say
00:51:41there's no study that says keto works these studies are extremely expensive and there have been enough
00:51:47good studies done to support our moderate approach which is looking at balanced foods vegetables fruits
00:51:54grains and lean meat and dairy products how do you know it doesn't work if there's never been any
00:52:00large-scale studies back before i wrote my book fitness confidential i only had my clients in la who i
00:52:06worked with after the book came out and then the podcast got popular now it wasn't just 20 or 30 students
00:52:15it was first hundreds and then thousands and then tens of thousands so once you have
00:52:22that many people doing in one and it's working well it's not an in one experiment anymore it's actually
00:52:29been known for a long time that the root cause is eating too much and specifically carbohydrates so 150
00:52:40years ago the first treatment for obesity was actually a low carb ketogenic diet it was written about in
00:52:47england and i find myself in a curious situation where i'm just reminding people of something that
00:52:55we've known for 150 years that one you know solution for the obesity and diabetes epidemic is a low carb
00:53:04ketogenic diet if you go back to the 1970s dr atkins was considered a kook i remember the big joke back
00:53:10then was do atkins you'll lose weight and then you'll be a really good looking carbs because
00:53:16you're going to die from this diet telling people that you know beef is good and so on is you know
00:53:21or that butter is good or you know telling people what they want to hear is a good way to sell books
00:53:26it's a good way to you know magazines are hurting for business now on the internet everyone's looking
00:53:30for something controversial that they can tell people what they want to hear and i understand that
00:53:34but it does people a tremendous disservice the low carbohydrate keto community is based on science
00:53:41and i understand that there are lots of ways to be healthy you don't have to do a low carbohydrate
00:53:46ketogenic diet if you don't have carbohydrate tolerance or if you don't have insulin resistance
00:53:52you can eat lots of different things and it's this insulin resistance that can drive so many
00:53:57downstream markers of of inflammation and glycation and other detrimental processes in our body that
00:54:06can then lead to heart disease so whether obesity itself causes heart disease or whether it's this
00:54:12constellation of health problems that occur in people who are obese that seems more likely people
00:54:19will say to me emphatically well keto is bad and i'll ask them why and there's no answer they'll just go
00:54:24it's bad my doctor said it was bad and it throws your body into a state of emergency that's what
00:54:29ketosis is as we said in the first movie ketosis and ketoacidosis are two completely different things
00:54:37nutritional ketosis is quite a different scenario blood sugars are absolutely under control the patient
00:54:43is healthy in every single way electrolytes insulin glucose perfectly perfectly controlled we have now
00:54:50trained the body to switch over from burning carbohydrate as the primary fuel now the individual
00:54:56becomes fat adapted and that's really the difference between a very unhealthy and a very healthy state if
00:55:02we're going to even pretend we're on the same page we need to know that basic fact a lot of the times when
00:55:08even medical professionals especially tv nutritionists describe in essence what ketosis is they always point
00:55:14out completely harmless and sometimes unproven things to get you to not do it there are some
00:55:19really interesting side effects that come with it your autophagy process is totally out of whack
00:55:24disaster pants zero calorie restriction on a ketogenic diet keto crotch if you have a sandwich or
00:55:30something right now you might just want to go ahead and put that down animal fats and animal proteins
00:55:34unless you have epilepsy i'm not seeing a whole lot of upside to this they are just they're desperate right
00:55:39they're just desperate bacterial vaginosis rich in saturated fat um so i actually have not done keto
00:55:46myself as you might guess but the keto diet as the sort of latest thing which is already promoting
00:55:53pushback from the community like they're trying to tell people don't even try it because it's going
00:55:57to give you bad breath or constipation and therefore you know if you weigh 300 pounds you should just
00:56:03continue weighing 300 pounds because if you lost 100 but your breath smell like ketones that would be a
00:56:12tragedy get all the benefit over here none of the negatives over here and all the benefits over there
00:56:17for a ketogenic diet for is a particularly um i want to use the word magical diet for many neurological
00:56:24conditions many brain uh and uh body nervous system conditions uh it the when you eat a ketogenic diet
00:56:32you're using fat uh primarily for energy and the brain is using a to a large extent ketones instead
00:56:39of glucose it can't use 100 ketones but it can use about two-thirds of its energy can come from ketones
00:56:46if you're eating a fat-based diet as opposed to a carbohydrate-based diet so there we're not entirely
00:56:53sure why this diet is so healthy for the brain and has been able to you know uh help people with early
00:56:59alzheimer's disease and parkinson's disease and seizure disorders and you know but but it stands
00:57:05to reason that if these diets which have been used to treat epilepsy now for almost 100 years perhaps
00:57:11longer if these diets can be helpful in calming brain chemistry in that way perhaps they could be
00:57:17helpful for other brain disorders as well including psychiatric disorders which have a lot in common
00:57:22with neurological disorders that really psychiatric disorders are neurological disorders it's simply that
00:57:27they manifest um as changes in behavior and emotion as opposed to changes in the sensory motor system
00:57:35with with the muscular system for example so the ketogenic diet the way we think it works is that
00:57:41ketones burn cleanly and more efficiently and they then glucose does in the brain and so you create less
00:57:49oxidation less inflammation so i tell my patients to think of refined carbohydrates in particular
00:57:55sugar flour fruit juice cereals as mood destabilizers um i think that there's a there's a lot of potential
00:58:02benefit here the science is is very very new when it comes to psychiatric disorders and ketogenic diets
00:58:09but it's emerging and it's all pointing in the same direction it's very very promising if we get this
00:58:15message out i think that there are many doctors out there who really want to understand this and and and
00:58:20would be open-minded and would be curious to incorporate some of these principles into their practice
00:58:25because we have so many patients who do not respond to medication or who get side effects from
00:58:30medication or who don't want to take medication and or can't afford medication and so isn't it wonderful
00:58:37if we have something else to offer those people when i got into this field in the early 2000s the sort of
00:58:43medical orthodoxy the dominant hypothesis in the nutrition establishment was that fat saturated fat
00:58:50uh cholesterol are terrible for health and if you believed otherwise or if you wrote otherwise you
00:58:57would really suffer as a scientist if you if you said anything against that orthodoxy in the field so
00:59:03here i come along saying oh you know but this paper the the conclusions don't reflect the data can you
00:59:09explain that to me or this doesn't seem to add up and people were terrified to go on the record saying
00:59:15anything against this dominant hypothesis because the cost to them there are real costs to a scientist
00:59:21in challenging that orthodoxy people who couldn't get their papers published because they had said
00:59:29something that was challenging to this orthodoxy they were disinvited from expert conferences they
00:59:33could not get research grants or their research grants were cancelled scientists learn to self-censor
00:59:38because what they want to do is they want to do science that's their job and if they can't get money and
00:59:44if they can't publish their papers because they're talking out in ways that their seniors disapprove of
00:59:50then they can't do their science so they really did not want to talk about this issue that was so
00:59:55deeply risky to them but i've been told that in order to get nih funding they actually look at how
01:00:01many times your name appears in the news media so there's this incentive to make your studies into this
01:00:08kind of clickbait which is completely irresponsible you know consumers don't know they're completely confused
01:00:14one of the clever kind of rhetorical things that harvard and others uh somebody like david katz at
01:00:19yale do is they always say like you poor consumers you're so confused and you're all these internet
01:00:25crazies out there and book authors are making you confused we are here assembled in stockholm and all
01:00:31seem to agree that we need a more plant-based diet and are talking about how to achieve it and yet the
01:00:36public is fascinated by the currently prevailing meme that we should all eat more meat butter and
01:00:43cheese we have lost the faith of the public we are like firefighters who bicker among ourselves about
01:00:49who has the right caliber hose the mission is to get there from here and there is a beautiful place the
01:00:55place we want to bequeath to our children what is making people confused is the publication of this weak
01:01:01epidemiological data which almost 100 of the time turns out to be wrong i mean what is the list of
01:01:07things that epidemiology has been wrong on vitamin e supplements vitamin a supplements vitamin c
01:01:13supplements hormone replacement therapy turned out to be killing women uh dietary cholesterol caps
01:01:19why we all ate egg white omelets and avoided shellfish for all that time that turned out to be wrong
01:01:23and was retracted the low-fat diet the government and the american heart association have backed off the
01:01:28low-fat diet why were we eating a low-fat diet because of epidemiology so the people confusing us
01:01:33are the epidemiologists the experts themselves most of the current social media argument is over extremes
01:01:39go all vegan or go all meat no one knows who to trust and then both messages get commercialized and
01:01:46bastardized now you're in fad diet land now you're now it's de facto quackery because if it wasn't quackery
01:01:52why would you need this cardiologist in new york or this gynecologist in brooklyn writing about it
01:01:57instead of it coming out of harvard or cornell or yale they've been fighting this thing for 50 years
01:02:05and the longer you fight it again now we're into the cognitive dissonance the more you have to be
01:02:11right i have a lot of patients who are confused or at least tell me about the vegan diet and how
01:02:18especially among young women my daughter included one of them it's very fashionable to be a vegan and
01:02:26you're you feel like you're doing the right thing for animals and all but as a scientist i want to
01:02:34promote or recommend a diet that's actually healthy for humans not just for animals right so i mean i'm
01:02:40here to help the person in front of me in a clinic so i want the diet to be as healthy as possible and
01:02:46it's possible with a vegan diet to have nutritional deficiencies some of the nutrients of concern in the
01:02:52vegan diet include vitamin b12 iron calcium vitamin d omega-3 fatty acids including epa and dha and
01:03:02protein we found that some of these nutrients which can have implications in neurologic disorders
01:03:08anemias bone health and other health concerns can be deficient in vegan diets low-carb diets for a
01:03:16vegetarian is possibly a successful approach we actually have low-carb vegetarians who perhaps
01:03:24can add dairy or eggs or fish and chicken to the diet and in this way they can lead a healthy life
01:03:32but i think it is fair to say that we are omnivores and animal-based proteins as well as plant-based proteins
01:03:42can be healthy for us you know you can say what the science says and then you can say what people
01:03:47actually do and actually stick with and you want a diet a nutritional program that's going to make
01:03:52you feel good give you energy make it so you're not hungry all the time so you don't have to think
01:03:56about food all the time we get a lot of pushback from the vegetarian community where i think they
01:04:01should i wish they would say they were all arguing we all want people to be as healthy as humanly
01:04:05possible and we want ethical decisions to be made on the correct implications so if i'm going to risk
01:04:11my health for the health of other species i want to know that's what i'm doing i don't want to be
01:04:17uh have the misconception that i'm going to be healthier because that's what i'm you know by also
01:04:22that the ethical decision is also the one that's supported by uh you know medical science all we do
01:04:29is talk and talk and talk about health and at the same time we're just getting fatter and more unhealthy
01:04:35if america is so worried about its health how do we get so fat because we have such
01:04:41big problems with obesity type 2 diabetes high blood pressure all kinds of diseases it's not
01:04:47surprising that people are more interested in their health than ever because they they have to be
01:04:52you don't have to be interested in your in your health if everything's all right right it's only
01:04:57when you have a problem that you you need to do something about it the myth is that is that the
01:05:02health care system is the best place to go to get healthy that's that's another terrible myth that so
01:05:08many people are falling into that trap and you know if you're acutely ill if you're if you need
01:05:13a surgery if you if you're if you have a bad infection the health care system is fantastic
01:05:18but when it comes to these chronic diseases we're facing unfortunately it is a myth that the health
01:05:23care system is the best place to address those there's a lot of information today on the internet
01:05:28it's a wonderful thing and it's a terrible thing there are people who have their own agendas to promote
01:05:34saying the darndest things and and my patients watch those and read them and i have to try to
01:05:39correct them based on the research we cannot say with any certainty that eating red or processed
01:05:45meat causes cancer diabetes or heart disease the study recommends adults continue current red and
01:05:51processed meat consumption it's a finding that's prompted calls for a retraction the most prominent
01:05:57critic harvard school of public health which labeled that conclusion irresponsible and unethical it's
01:06:04crazy because the more that we learn that meat is healthy and people are getting healthy with these
01:06:08hundreds of thousands of in one experiments the more the chasm grows between the meat eaters and
01:06:14the vegans i was watching one vegan propaganda film about a year ago and they were claiming that
01:06:20eating one egg is equivalent to smoking five cigarettes a day one egg i never really thought about eggs
01:06:26much i just thought of them as a standard part of a healthy diet but then i found a study suggesting
01:06:30that eating just one egg a day can be as bad as smoking five cigarettes per day for life expectancy
01:06:36in that case i'm smoking a pack every morning it makes absolutely no sense the problem is is people
01:06:43are going to watch these movies and believe this researchers found a stepwise increase in risk the more
01:06:49and more eggs people ate in just a single egg a week appeared to increase the odds of diabetes by 76
01:06:56percent the reality is that a food that has just fat or or an egg for example doesn't raise the blood
01:07:03sugar at all it has a glycemic index of zero and so if a a site is claiming that there is the egg has a
01:07:11glycemic effect it's just not true eggs don't cause diabetes now unless you're eating carbohydrates and
01:07:18you put it all into the one one mix together but uh the interesting thing when you look at the glycemic
01:07:25index of different foods is that the foods that have no carbohydrates are not on that list so oils
01:07:31butter eggs have a glycemic index of zero there is a fear unfounded fear of the cholesterol going up
01:07:40eating more fat more more eggs and we now know that it is a increase in good cholesterol as well
01:07:48and a reduction of the bad cholesterol called triglyceride or bad fats in the blood for example
01:07:54so the extreme case of some people being told not to do this even though there are clear benefits
01:08:00based on a worry about a long-term effect of cholesterol is just sadly wrong and through the
01:08:07lens of today's understanding of the science so you look at who gets heart disease you look at how many
01:08:12eggs they're eating and lo and behold people eat eggs get more heart disease than people don't
01:08:17they're probably not as health conscious as people don't eat eggs because for 50 years we've been told
01:08:22don't eat eggs so very health conscious people like the 90s i probably boiled 10 000 eggs in the 90s and
01:08:31i probably threw out 10 000 yolks okay because the yolks have fat and cholesterol and we were taught they
01:08:36would kill people so you do these studies and lo and behold you find out that people eat eggs have a
01:08:41higher rate of heart disease that's a correlation and then you pretend correlation is causation because
01:08:46that's why you did the study to begin with and then you make this claim and then you have this whole
01:08:50world then the people who want to believe that's true embrace the claim and act like it's true
01:08:56because they had a single published study that said it's true i don't think these people really
01:09:03care that much about whether it makes us healthier maybe they do i think they care about the animals
01:09:08and that's a wonderful cause but that's not what i'm trying to do at the moment the group says that
01:09:14activism isn't violence and that they have a love-based approach not everyone's like you and don't care about
01:09:19animals oh who care about animals you care about animals absolutely you condemn them to a slaughter
01:09:22house when you eat them if somebody gives up meat and goes vegetarian or vegan and gets healthy
01:09:29and they can control their weight and they're control their blood sugar and you know then geez
01:09:35that's the greatest thing in the world and i'm happy for them and but if they can do it by eating a
01:09:42you know a low carb high fat diet which clearly people can then i think we should be happy for
01:09:48them and support it a high fat diet is not unhealthy on its own and should not be avoided
01:09:54even if you're a green only vegan unless in fact you don't like the food the myth still persists that
01:10:00fat is going to kill you or at the very least make you fat it's what i call the tragic homonym
01:10:06the fat and bacon is not the same as the fat on your hips it's different and another idea that is
01:10:11just deeply ingrained in us is this idea that you know all green things are good all vegetables are
01:10:16good and vegetables are good but again it's not either or what does the doctor say about adding
01:10:22fat well it sure seems logical that the fat in the food would become the fat on your body you know on
01:10:29your your bottom for example but it turns out that it's the insulin hormone inside that creates the
01:10:36situation for you to be able to deposit the fat and insulin is actually generated by eating carbohydrates
01:10:43so it's actually the dietary carbohydrates the sugars and the starches that are fattening but
01:10:49the confusion comes into play because if you're eating carbohydrates and fats then you will get fat
01:10:56but it's not the fat that caused it it was the carbohydrates that led to the insulin that caused
01:11:02the fat to be fattening so another part of the confusion is that low fat diets work
01:11:07the problem is that they cause excessive hunger for most people and so they don't practically work
01:11:14for many people and we've seen that to be true because the u.s has been advocating low fat diets
01:11:20for the last 30 years and it hasn't worked practically for most americans it's not that it can't work
01:11:27it's just that it hasn't been a practical solution i've always thought that our government should
01:11:32operate according to the principle like medical doctors when they swear an oath to their profession
01:11:37that they should at least do no harm you know when they started off the dietary guidelines they knew
01:11:41they didn't even have to know what to tell americans what to eat they just simply said have 7 to 11
01:11:46servings of bread every day that was what they told people then they actually went and told the food
01:11:51industry you must go out and create thousands of more low fat and therefore high high carb food products
01:11:57for us the defenders of the nutrition establishment say oh we could not have anticipated that people
01:12:03would eat more sugars um it's not our fault that they all went out and scarfed down snack well cookies
01:12:09well the government told the industry to make those foods new snack wells reduced fat candy yes like
01:12:16luscious chocolatey caramel nut clusters and the american heart association was also putting its
01:12:20you know heart healthy check mark on you know frosted flakes and cocoa puffs and all these foods that
01:12:27were super high in sugar but because they didn't have a lot of fat they were considered healthy the
01:12:32only measure of health was that it didn't have fat in it what a creamy way to cut the fat is the
01:12:37pendulum swinging that is a big question i think clearly it is in that there is a bottom-up revolution
01:12:45going on the people who end up in an obesity medicine clinic like mine happen to be the ones who
01:12:51have the bad metabolism where a very small amount of sugar or starch or grains can be detrimental and
01:12:58so that's why we're very strict about teaching people how to stay away from those foods teaching
01:13:02people to have great foods things that they thought they couldn't have like bacon and and pate and brie
01:13:09and you know depending where you live there there's just a wide array of foods that don't have
01:13:14carbohydrates that are very tasty and healthy it takes motivation to do a diet and i've not really been
01:13:20very motivated to make a dietary change in the last few years i just just i don't know why i don't
01:13:24know my head my head wasn't in that space but this is one of the important psychologists about dieting
01:13:27you have to decide to make a change and i was doing a podcast about health and fitness i thought
01:13:33walk it like you talk it so i better do it and i but i remember it was a moment it's like any major
01:13:37change there's a moment would you go okay i'm gonna do this a lifestyle that you can stick with
01:13:42that is going to help you control your hormones your insulin hormones your fat storage hormones
01:13:48that's going to be the best way to lose weight in the long run because we don't care if you're
01:13:53going to lose weight in two weeks four weeks six weeks that's not where health is where health is
01:13:58is permanently reversing any metabolic damage making you healthy on the inside and then weight loss will
01:14:04follow you have to be ready to do it just like stopping smoking anything else you have to be ready
01:14:08to do it you have to do it the great thing about this diet is it's painless the diet itself is painless
01:14:14and once you make the change you feel so good it's self-sustaining you want to stay with it you
01:14:18want to optimize it and you certainly don't want to lose what you got there's a credit suisse report
01:14:23that came out a little while ago uh saying the the the market is going to shift on fats so you know
01:14:30telling business get ready for this it's going to change you know we see butter sales going through
01:14:34the roof we see meat consumption actually increasing there are there are signs in the market that the that
01:14:41consumer-driven demand is changing so there seems to be somewhat of a groundswell you walk into grocery
01:14:46stores and things are now paleo the way things used to be vegan you walk into bookstores and there's
01:14:51books on low carb and the computer is just full of all of this stuff look i get it we live in a society
01:14:58where everyone wants everything fast just tell me what to do you want no sugars no grains eat bacon
01:15:04eat beef eat an avocado that's in sng in sng you have gray areas um i know you were on the whole 30
01:15:13right it's like either you in or you're out yeah yeah in sng you can mess up at noontime and you're
01:15:19right back in that evening you know and you just go with it as long as you're cutting out sugars and
01:15:23grains you're on point i've done well over 1700 podcasts at this point and i use one line in each and
01:15:31every podcast your good intentions have been stolen i'm just here to try to help you get them back
01:15:51so
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