00:00France's Overseas Minister Emmanuel Valls says he will visit New Caledonia next week as a deal to give the Pacific Ocean Territory limited sovereignty looks set to flounder.
00:10The Bougieville Agreement, signed last month with both pro-independence and pro-French groups in the territory,
00:17appeared to have brought to a close a period of deadlock in the French Overseas Territory one year on from riots that left 14 people dead and devastated the New Caledonian economy.
00:27But it is expected to be rejected by the pro-independence, Canac and Socialist National Liberation Front today.
00:34For more on this, I can bring in François Verges, historian and specialist in the political history of France's overseas territories.
00:42Good morning, François, and thank you for joining us.
00:45The Flinx delegation at Bougieville, they were happy with the agreement last month that it signed,
00:51but the agreement hasn't met with the same approval or support back home. Why is this?
00:57Well, I do think, you know, at first, I mean, the delegation was not officially approved by the movement.
01:08And the movement decided after, by looking closely at the term of the agreement, that it was not sufficient.
01:17It did not effectively, in fact, accept full sovereignty of the Canac.
01:23So, I mean, the Congress have, in fact, the final say.
01:28Now, Christian Tain, the president of the Flinx, has said that talks should continue,
01:34but only with a view to full sovereignty for New Caledonia.
01:39Is this going to be, does this rule out any compromise?
01:42And is it going to be an obstacle for the French government, either this French government or future French governments?
01:48Well, we have to also to remember that the French state has always had very, I mean, incredible difficulty
01:55to, in fact, accept full sovereignty by the people it has colonized.
02:01I mean, we can remember all, you know, the colonial war, Madagascar, Cameroon, Nigeria, Indochina, and so on.
02:08So, and remember, you know, for instance, what we could call the Mesmer doctrine,
02:13Pierre Mesmer was a minister of the overseas department, saying, I mean, first, he encouraged, as you do know,
02:20migration to New Caledonia to make the Canac a minority in their own country.
02:26And then he always said, and I do think that, in fact, is the doctrine of the French state,
02:31that's independent, that French, the state would recognize independence only after killing
02:37or getting rid of the more, you know, radical leaders and accepting, I mean, those who will
02:42accept in France the state condition.
02:45So there is a long history, and I do understand why the Canac, you know, are not trusting the
02:52state, are not trusting the state.
02:54So effectively, and then secondly, if I may say, this way of putting together, you know,
02:59on the same level, the settler, even though, you know, they may, they might be there for
03:04three, four generations, with the Canac, who were, you know, who's land, who are stolen,
03:10who were put in reservation, which was a unique case in the colonial, in the French colonial
03:14empire, who, you know, who are even poorer than the French settler.
03:19It's a question, you cannot put, you know, on an equal level, you know, those who are oppressed
03:24and those who oppress them.
03:25Now, the Bourgeois Accord, it allowed for the creation of a new Caledonian state within
03:31the French state, and also Caledonian or Canac nationality.
03:37Is this as good as a French government is ever going to grant?
03:41Because it is considerably advanced on what had previously been offered to Caledonians.
03:47France, do you think that this will actually be offered again, or will France just simply
03:54say that, well, you rejected this, we're not going to give any more?
04:00Well, you know, France, of course, will say that they got so far, and that's very important
04:07that they gave, you know, that they recognized sovereignty.
04:09But it's not full sovereignty.
04:11I mean, the state does not understand, they don't give half of sovereignty, like a little
04:16part of sovereignty.
04:17And of course, you have also the question of the nickel industry, right?
04:21I mean, that the state wants still to keep control over it, which is, you know, more important
04:28sources of revenue for the future Canac state.
04:32And the Canac want full sovereignty, they want to decide themselves, they don't want
04:38to be part, I mean, how can I say, dependent of the decision of the French state.
04:43It's not really full sovereignty, you know, it's sovereignty by, you know, and still with
04:50the French state, you know, deciding, making the decision.
04:54The Canac people want to make their own decision, want to decide their own future.
04:58And that's, it's a, it's a demand recognized by the United Nations and recognizing an international
05:03law.
05:04Now, France is unusual among former Western colonial powers in maintaining large amounts of the
05:13former colonies as part of the French state.
05:16Is France worried that a domino effect might cascade from the case of New Caledonia and it
05:23might encourage secessionist groups in other overseas territories?
05:28Yeah, I mean, this is effectively a pertinent question.
05:32As you do know, this territory makes France the second maritime power in the world after
05:38the United States, which is, you know, when you look at France, will not be that.
05:42It gives them also military possibility of military intervention.
05:46It gives them also, you know, economic benefit, cultural.
05:50It will allow France to sit on different regional organization in the Indian Ocean, the Caribbean,
05:57in South America and in the Pacific.
06:00It's a lot of, you know, benefit.
06:01And today, of course, with everything changing, especially in the Indian Ocean, which is becoming
06:06a very militarized ocean, through which, as you do know, the oil goes through.
06:11I mean, there is this Indo-Pacific military, you know, project and France want to be in it.
06:18So, effectively, keeping this territory is extremely important.
06:22And the fear, I mean, France has always fought against a movement for either political economy
06:28or independence in the Caribbean, South America, the Pacific or Indian Ocean, extremely strongly,
06:37as, you know, it's military occupation in some of the places.
06:41And as you were saying last year, when they were in Yiddish, a revolt, social revolt in New
06:49Caledonia, Kanaki, it did not hesitate to send army.
06:53And it has assassinated leaders in New Caledonia, Elosha, Mashoro and others.
06:58So, again, the people of this territory know, are, you know, are absolutely aware of the longest
07:06history of the multiple obstacle that the state has put, again, their desire, their absolutely
07:13legitimate desire to govern themselves and to decide, you know, what they will do.
07:18You are in the Pacific.
07:20This is not a region of France.
07:21You are not in Europe.
07:23You are very far away, surrounded by different countries.
07:25And you have to decide with whom you're going to have trade, with whom you're going to, you
07:30know, how you're going to develop yourself, what you want to develop.
07:33And you don't want a state, which is, like, very far away in Western Europe, to decide
07:38for yourself.
07:40Thank you very much for that, Francoise Varges, historian and specialist in the political
07:44history of France's overseas territories.
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