- 6/24/2025
Murder 24-7 The DPD Murder Pt3 S02E03 (18 Jun 2025)
Category
🦄
CreativityTranscript
00:00There was blood on the banister, blood on the door, blood on the side of the wall.
00:16They've both been attacked in here and then the bleeding started in there.
00:20This is a beast of a job. We're going to be busy.
00:22She's pulled it out of the undergrowth and one end is covered with blood.
00:26Obviously raises the question, where is the other knife?
00:30These are commonly fractured in somebody who has been strangled.
00:35We need to understand what happened, where and in what sequence.
00:41They were both lovely people.
00:43But you see, you don't know what's going on in the home, do you?
00:47Oh my God.
00:49It's a handgun of some description.
00:51Go, go.
00:54Go, go, go, go, go, go!
00:55Please, do where you are!
00:57Come on, Hanks! Come on, Hanks, Hanks!
01:00Hanks, you're on your back!
01:02We're cooking on gas.
01:04There's no grey here as it's black and white.
01:08It's murder.
01:08It's just Audi A4, I think.
01:30Just hold here then, because I don't think it'll be through yet.
01:32Police surveillance teams are searching for a vehicle registered to a suspect in the murder of a DPD driver.
01:45Desperately trying to spot him.
01:46Desperately trying to spot him.
01:47Not here, not here, not here, not here, not here, not here.
01:50One, two, move out.
01:5230 miles away, the hunt is coordinated by intelligence officers.
01:58ANPR camera shows travel from Sucmendeep's insured address.
02:03The car then starts to make its way back towards the M6 to Birmingham.
02:09They believe the suspect is trying to escape the country.
02:13Just for info, driver appears to be an Asian male with a moustache, potentially a beard.
02:32Can you just confirm that it is the vehicle?
02:34I believe so, yes, I like it.
02:36The suspect is wanted in connection with the murder of 23-year-old Arman Singh.
02:48He's carrying a long-handled weapon.
02:50Who was ambushed by eight attackers in broad daylight.
02:54Look at that.
02:55Oh, it's a long-handled one. It's not like a short one.
02:57It's a proper...
02:58Four of the gang escaped.
03:00So the white vehicle is in Kinnerston Road.
03:03No-one's seen leaving the vehicle.
03:05The rest were caught.
03:06Oh, my God! Oh, my God!
03:09You're the rest of the mission of murder.
03:11And charged with murder.
03:12Do you understand the charge?
03:14OK.
03:15But detectives believed they must have had help.
03:18They'd been in the area at least an hour beforehand.
03:21And when they analysed phones...
03:23That is the first time that they get the information about where he is.
03:26They discovered it was coming from inside DPD.
03:30Someone's taken a picture of Arman Singh's van, and that's been WhatsApp'd over.
03:34From an employee named Supamandeep Singh.
03:38There's a text message, fly with us.
03:42Fly with us, yeah.
03:43That would indicate he's looking to fly out of the country.
03:46Yeah.
03:51Officers now believe Supamandeep is heading to Birmingham Airport.
03:56And they need to stop him before he gets there.
03:586-4. We are still one for cover.
04:01Unfortunately, our car has blocked our path.
04:03We're just trying to get past it so we can get in contact with the subject vehicle.
04:09The Stinger set at the bottom of nine.
04:10It's lane two.
04:15It's going to be directly behind the Silver Focus.
04:19Go.
04:24Switch it off!
04:25Switch the car off now and open the door!
04:28Switch it off!
04:29Switch the car off!
04:37Check these ones on.
04:38Get in there for me, please.
04:47It's on the slip.
04:48Yeah, go on.
04:49I'm taking the guy driving.
04:50He might be too young for our subject, I'm going to be honest.
04:53Just give us the up-and-date.
04:59What's the gentleman's name?
05:00He brought this car.
05:03The officers have stopped the right car.
05:08But it's the wrong person driving it.
05:14Sir, where is he?
05:15News of the unsuccessful arrest is passed on to the team investigating Arman Singh's murder.
05:33He was stopped and he's stating that he just brought the car from £1,000 from a Subman deep sink.
05:42Unless Andy and Mark highlight any other things that I'm not aware of.
05:46Probably doesn't fit into the investigation at this stage.
05:49No, nothing from us.
05:50OK.
05:51OK.
05:52Happy?
05:53Right.
05:54One, one, three.
05:54Straight there.
05:55OK.
05:56Speak your bear.
05:57Just a few hours later.
06:01New intelligence is received.
06:02New intelligence is received.
06:08It suggests Supamandeep Singh might be hiding out at an address in Peterborough.
06:15Peterborough.
06:16I'm going there.
06:17I'm going there.
06:18I'm going there.
06:19I'm going there.
06:20I'm going there.
06:21OK.
06:22I'm going there.
06:23OK.
06:24Happy?
06:25Right.
06:26OK.
06:27Happy?
06:28Right.
06:29One, one, three.
06:30OK.
06:31Beaky bear.
06:33Police.
06:57Police!
06:58Police!
06:59Police!
07:00Police officers!
07:03Police officers!
07:05Police!
07:08Hello.
07:09Who's in here, please?
07:11What's your name, mate?
07:13Suckerman.
07:14Suckerman D.
07:15The under arrest on suspicion of murder.
07:17You can't ask anything about Home Defence,
07:19if you've got a question.
07:21Anything you do so may be given evidence.
07:23How can you, mate? How can you arrest him?
07:26There's a writer.
07:30Suckerman D.
07:44Got your food here, Mr Singh.
07:46With Suckman D. in custody,
07:51it's now up to DCI Mark Bellamy and his team
07:55to prove he was responsible for the murder,
07:58even though he didn't take part in the violence.
08:04If somebody assists an offender
08:06to enable them to carry out that crime,
08:09they can be as culpable as the person who's committed the crime.
08:15But then you've got some additional complexities
08:17because you've got to be able to show
08:19that they were aware of what the principal offenders were intending to do.
08:23Very quickly then, I met with a family yesterday.
08:32I think that was a positive meeting.
08:36And they turned up at, didn't they, the meeting with a couple of photos as well
08:39to try and assist the investigation.
08:41You'll be aware that we've now nominated Suckman Deep Singh,
08:46who's in custody at Shrewsbury.
08:48Dorsey, are you able just to go through why I've nominated Suckman Deep?
08:51There's lots of communication between Suckman Deep Singh
08:55and the murder suspects throughout the day.
08:58There was a WhatsApp chat on Arshdeep's phone
09:02where a photograph of the DPD van,
09:05which Arman Singh was in when he was murdered,
09:08a picture of that was sent to Arshdeep
09:12at 7.33 on the morning of the murder.
09:15The WhatsApp account appears to be an Indian number.
09:21OK.
09:22That was saved in Arshdeep's phone as Suckman PNNU.
09:29Also what we know is the Suckman Deep Singh phone,
09:32which is 3680 number,
09:35that was self-citing by the DPD depot
09:39despite having no reason to be there.
09:41It wasn't on a route at all.
09:42That was how we came to him as a suspect.
09:44OK.
09:45He's clearly got himself involved in the incident,
09:48knowing the consequences of his actions.
09:51Bro.
10:01Despite evidence that Suckman Deep
10:03sent the gang a photo of the victim's van
10:08and that he accessed details of his route
10:11on the day he was murdered,
10:13detectives need to show he knew they were planning an attack.
10:18That's now the job of the interview team.
10:22I personally think it's one big hit interview.
10:30When the evidence is really strong in the case,
10:32we'll just put it straight to the suspect.
10:34Sometimes you do just literally need to put your cards on the table and say,
10:39this is what we've got, give us everything.
10:43And give them the chance to tell us the truth.
10:45You try and plan for every event, but it's not always possible.
10:54And you've just got to roll with it.
10:55Just minutes before the interview starts, Suckman Deep springs a surprise.
11:08I did not access the route of Arman Singh.
11:10I have no way of doing this.
11:14I did not share the information with anyone else.
11:17Oh, crikey.
11:18Without waiting to hear the evidence against him,
11:21he's prepared a statement denying everything.
11:24I first met Arsh Deep Singh in 2021.
11:27I speak to him occasionally, but we do not meet up.
11:31I did not send him a message with Arman Singh's name and a photo.
11:36I deny that I'm involved in this.
11:39OK, I'll just get it.
11:41You OK with that?
11:42Yeah.
11:43I'll just photograph.
11:44I'll get it electronically.
11:46Are you quite happy with it?
11:47I'm happy to get started.
11:48Yeah.
11:49OK.
11:50Yeah.
11:51I understand that.
11:52Just take your time.
11:53I think we need to order to do that right now.
11:54Interview plan's obviously changed.
11:55I'm going to have to do it now in the order paragraph by paragraph.
11:56Yeah.
11:57Because that's ridiculous.
11:58Exactly.
11:59Yeah.
12:00OK.
12:01Now, you have provided us with a prepared statement prior to the start of this interview.
12:30So I'm going to go through your prepared statement and try and ask you questions around what
12:35you've said.
12:36I did not access the route of Arman Singh.
12:40I don't know.
12:41No way of doing this.
12:42And as such, I did not share that information with anyone else.
12:45DPD will say that there is no viable reason for anyone to access another driver's route.
12:53It was accessed at 10 22 56, 10 28 06, 10 28 and 12 hours.
13:02We believe the evidence would indicate that you have accessed the route and subsequently
13:08shared that information.
13:10No evidence.
13:11Moving on to point five of the prepared statement.
13:19We first met Arshdeep Singh in 2021.
13:22I speak to him occasionally, but we do not meet up and see each other very often.
13:27We can see that by 10 to seven, that you're attempting contact with Arshdeep Singh, somebody
13:36that has been charged already with the murder.
13:39This happens again at 6 50 hours, 6 51 hours.
13:44So it's one after the other.
13:46Tell me why there is contact or attempted contact, I should say, with Arshdeep.
13:52No comments.
13:53You speak to him occasionally.
13:56You don't see him very often and purely coincidentally, you speak to him on the morning of the 21st of
14:03August.
14:04No comments.
14:08I did not send him a message with Arman Singh's name and photo of a DPD driver.
14:15Yeah.
14:18Did you take this image?
14:20No.
14:23You send a WhatsApp with Arman Singh's name on.
14:28You then send a photograph of the DPD van that Arman Singh was driving on the day that he was murdered.
14:37So, so far, you're in touch with somebody that's charged for the murder.
14:42We've got you as a DPD employee sending pictures of Arman's van.
14:47So, I'll ask you one last time, did you share the details of Arman Singh's whereabouts in order to facilitate his murder?
15:02No comments.
15:03What was in it for you?
15:04No comments.
15:05Were you promised something in return?
15:09Have you done this in payment for anything else?
15:10Have you been forced into doing this?
15:24You can see I'm trying to give you every opportunity to provide a reason as to why you would do this.
15:36You need to think of yourself now.
15:49The interview is paused.
15:55And the team waits for Supamandeep's next move.
16:12It comes in the shape of another prepared statement.
16:20Let's have a couple of minutes, then, just to read it.
16:33Hello, Matt Crisp.
16:35Plot thickens.
16:36We've had a prepared statement from him.
16:38But now what he's saying that Arshdeep threatened to beat him and his wife up.
16:42If he didn't provide those information, and he was fearful that that threat would be carried out if he didn't do it.
16:47OK.
16:48And is that in a phone call aid, is that, to him?
16:51Yeah, in a phone call, yeah.
16:53OK.
16:54I'll email it through to you.
16:56Lovely.
16:57Thank you, mate.
16:58Cheers, bye.
17:00There you go.
17:01I contacted Arshdeep to tell him that Armand Singh was going to be on a route in Shrewsbury.
17:06I had already sent a photo of the van to Arshdeep after he asked.
17:11I did not want to send the information to him, and he threatened me again and said it would not go well for me if I refused.
17:19He's booked for coercion as a defence.
17:30Just take your shoes off around, guys.
17:35So, what we were hoping for is a visit to be made to his wife, and just to confirm whether or not she has received any threats.
17:43Is there any threats?
17:48Yes, it is, yeah.
17:50As I say, she's the wife of Sukmandeep Singh.
17:58The custody record is S-U-K-H-N-A-M.
18:02This prepared statement is very different to what you first shared with us.
18:23You mentioned that you provided the people responsible with crucial information to locate Herman, where he's been viciously attacked and died in the street.
18:37No place.
18:39So, what we're trying to understand is why you were so fearful that you provided that information to allow that to happen.
18:46No place.
18:48Was it in fact that you were happy to provide this information to them?
18:51No place.
19:03He's going, he's answering all the questions, er, no comment.
19:09So then on to the Monday the 21st, you're saying that it was you that contacted Archdeep.
19:17Did you consider not calling him?
19:19No place.
19:22What threats did he make to you?
19:24No place.
19:26In terms of these threats, you said you used the word mana, and that could mean beat up or kill.
19:33No place.
19:34You've admitted that you sent them that information, and we've explained to you that that's led directly to them finding him and his death.
19:44No place.
19:45At that point, did you believe that harm was going to come to Herman? Were you concerned for his welfare?
19:51No place.
19:53Did you make any effort to warn Herman or any of his friends or associates?
19:57No place.
19:58No place.
20:00This could be your last opportunity to tell us if there's anything else that would explain why you would provide this to them.
20:08No place.
20:09No place.
20:10No place.
20:11No place.
20:12Okay.
20:13No place.
20:14No place.
20:15No place.
20:16No place.
20:17No place.
20:18No place.
20:19No place.
20:20No place.
20:21No place.
20:22No place.
20:23No place.
20:24No place.
20:25No place.
20:26No place.
20:27Offices have now returned from speaking to Sucmandeep's wife about the alleged threats.
20:31Right, Cambridge have come back to us then?
20:32Yeah.
20:33So she's confirmed that she hasn't received any threats or had any threats made against her?
20:35Now's the time to tell us, because it's also acting in the interests of her husband, as well, isn't it?
20:40Yeah.
20:41And she hasn't said that, so...
20:42He'd gotten buggered there.
20:43She knows nothing about it.
20:45Yeah.
20:46So...
20:47Yeah.
20:48It's good that we got this before she had a chance to speak to him as well,
20:52so that they can't collude or anything like that.
20:54Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so it's a positive all-round, really.
20:57Yeah, win-win. Yeah.
21:01Now that his coercion claim has been undermined...
21:04End of book three. Am I going to make book four?
21:06Because I'm near the end of it.
21:08..and they can show that Sucmandeep knowingly helped the gang attack
21:12and kill Armin.
21:14Sorry, what was that last question?
21:15Mark believes they have enough evidence
21:19to ask the CPS to charge him with murder.
21:25No, we believe all the contact has been done over the phone.
21:29So, he sends the actual registration details as well in a message.
21:36Great.
21:38Thank you, David, much appreciated. Bye-bye.
21:42Yeah, murder. Murder? Yeah.
21:44Fab. What a result that is.
21:54Hello, Mr Singh. Are you OK?
21:56The interpreter will be here in just a second, all right?
21:59We'll just wait for him.
22:01All right?
22:01OK, Sucmandeep, contrary to current law on the 21st of the 8th, 2023,
22:11at Shrewsbury in the county of Shropshire,
22:16murdered Ormond Singh.
22:17Well, I've already told you everything that I've been forced to do with that government.
22:32OK.
22:33Obviously, the Crown Prosecution Service have reviewed the evidence
22:36and they've deemed it necessary for you to now appear before a court, OK?
22:39Are you able to return him to his cell, please?
22:43Yeah.
22:51Are there anything to eat or drink?
22:53Yeah.
22:54Water?
22:55Any food?
22:56Anything.
23:05Here they are.
23:07How are they?
23:07Good enough.
23:08Well done.
23:10You know, I think we need a celebration of your drink, don't we?
23:12Get in that leg, but I think you'll...
23:14Have a cup of tea?
23:15Yeah.
23:15You can't get into it.
23:16Look, look.
23:16Look.
23:17Look.
23:17Look.
23:17Look.
23:18Look.
23:18Look.
23:19Look.
23:19Look.
23:19Look.
23:20Look.
23:20Look.
23:21Look.
23:21Look.
23:21Look.
23:22Look.
23:22Look.
23:23Look.
23:23Look.
23:24Look.
23:24Look.
23:25Look.
23:25Look.
23:26Look.
23:26Look.
23:27Look.
23:28Look.
23:29Look.
23:30Look.
23:31Look.
23:32Look.
23:33Look.
23:34Look.
23:35Look.
23:36Five men will now stand trial for the murder of Armand Singh.
23:43It will be up to a jury to decide if they're guilty.
23:49What do you reckon?
23:50I'm hoping for five guilty of murder.
23:54Sukhmandip?
23:55Yeah.
23:56Might be.
23:57It's going to be the jury's understanding that he wasn't there at all.
24:01And all he did was pass messages.
24:04Erm.
24:05I don't know.
24:06But we'll see.
24:08It's down to the jury.
24:10Hmm.
24:11It's hard for the victim's family though, isn't it?
24:13It's a long time to wait.
24:14It's a long time to wait.
24:15Let's see.
24:19Let's see.
24:20Good.
24:21Oh.
24:22Well, what was your time?
24:24Well.
24:25Oh God.
24:26Oh God, I lied to you.
26:21Despite those convictions
26:23there are still four suspects on the run
26:26which means Operation Columbia isn't over
26:31and there's a new case for the major investigations unit.
26:41An 81-year-old man has been arrested as police investigate the death of an 80-year-old woman in Droidwich.
26:49The man is being held on suspicion of murder and attempted murder.
26:55He's currently receiving hospital treatment.
26:59A man in his 40s was also taken to hospital where he remains in a stable condition.
27:03West Mercier police say they believe those involved are known to each other and that there's no risk to the wider community.
27:13Following the discovery of 80-year-old Maureen Potter's body at her home.
27:15A team of detectives is investigating.
27:17a death.
27:19Yeah.
27:20A man is being held in a safe space for her.
27:22A man are wrecking in a home,
27:23staying at home and not a very stable condition.
27:25West Mercier police say they believe those involved are known to each other.
27:27And that there's no risk to the wider community.
27:29Following the discovery of 80-year-old Maureen Potter's body at her home.
27:40Maureen Potter's body at her home,
27:43a team of detectives is investigating her death.
27:48The suspect is her husband, 81-year-old Ivan Potter.
27:54He's currently being treated in hospital,
27:56along with their 45-year-old son Gavin,
27:59who has severe learning difficulties.
28:03Unable to interview either of them,
28:05the team is trying to piece together what happened,
28:08starting with a 999 call, made by Ivan.
28:13So, is this the 999 call to the ambulance service?
28:16To the ambulance, yes.
28:17OK, what's the quality like, Claire?
28:19It's OK, I've just played it, it's pretty loud,
28:21so I'll move the laptop over and then hopefully we should all hear.
28:28Hello, my love, are you the patient?
28:33Hello, my love, this is the ambulance service, are you the patient?
28:37My wife has died.
28:40Pardon?
28:42My wife has died.
28:44Oh, kind of love.
28:45How old is your wife?
28:4880.
28:5080.
28:50And are you in the room with her right now?
28:53Yes, and I've got a cerebral palsy.
28:56Lad.
28:57All right.
28:58We've taken overdoses, sorry, but that's how we are.
29:02So, you've both taken overdoses.
29:04And we want to be with her.
29:06Right, OK.
29:07So, let me just be clear, my love, are you calling about your wife now?
29:16She's dead.
29:18Right, OK, my love.
29:19Right, when did that happen, my love?
29:23Last night.
29:24Right, OK, and you said she...
29:26We took overdoses, but it wasn't enough, so we took another one.
29:31My son's in the bedroom.
29:33He's disabled, he is.
29:36Right, OK, my love.
29:37We took the overdose, and then my son.
29:40All right, my love.
29:41Now, what I want you to do, then, I want you to go and check on your son for me.
29:45Don't hang up.
29:46Stay on the line with me, OK?
29:50OK?
29:50I've got to go.
29:51He's calling me.
29:52Yeah, don't hang up.
29:53Go and check on your son, and then come back to the phone for me.
29:56Hang on.
29:57Hang on.
30:01I'll call him.
30:02I'll call him.
30:03I'll call him.
30:05All right, my love.
30:07Is that your son?
30:09I can hear you.
30:14Hello, my love.
30:15Can you hear me?
30:17Hello?
30:18Hello?
30:20Hello, my love.
30:28Can you let the ambulance crew in?
30:34Look, I'm going to clear the line with you now and leave you with the crew.
30:37That last three, four minutes, maybe, I mean, I could hear something in the background, and I think it was Ivan deteriorating from the effects of that drug's overdose.
30:53So the ambulance getting there when they did, I mean, essentially, has saved the life of Ivan and Gavin.
30:59Yeah.
31:01Thoughts?
31:02There's some key comments in there, isn't there?
31:05Really key.
31:05Key comments?
31:06Yeah.
31:07He said that we've taken an overdose.
31:09You've got to assume that that's him and Gavin.
31:13Gavin, yeah.
31:14We've taken an overdose.
31:15Yeah.
31:16We want to be with her.
31:17So it couldn't be any more complex at this stage.
31:21What are the sequence of events?
31:24What did people know?
31:26And what criminal offences have been committed?
31:28Yeah.
31:30Thanks, Steve.
31:31No worries, boss.
31:32While some of the team dig into the Potter family's history, Detective Inspector Steve Turner reviews footage from body-worn cameras from the first officers at the scene.
31:50OK, Papa, should I have two? Is there five?
31:54That's what we're looking at, then.
31:58There's a number of uniformed officers and ambulance, as you can see, on scene.
32:08So, there's son in there. He's got cerebral palsy and a few other ongoing medical conditions.
32:14And then there's also mom in there.
32:16Mom's deceased.
32:17They've had a suicide pass where, basically, they wanted to kill themselves.
32:23We don't know 100% when they've taken the overdose and what they've taken.
32:27OK.
32:27He's got learning difficulty as well, so he can't tell us.
32:30OK.
32:31The briefing for paramedics is this appears to be some tablet prep area.
32:37The toxicology's going to be key on Gavin and Maureen in terms of what's in their system.
32:43We need to determine what the trigger point was for him to decide to take the action that he took.
32:48And, crucially, what involvement Maureen had in any of those decisions that he took.
32:53Did Maureen know and did she enter into any kind of conversation and agreement to take an overdose and administer an overdose?
33:01But also, we've got this challenge around Gavin and his capacity.
33:05Did he fully understand what was going on?
33:07Yeah.
33:07And if he did, did he consent or not?
33:10That's going to be down to expert opinion.
33:12OK, mate.
33:13Brilliant.
33:13OK.
33:14Keeping an open mind is probably rule number one.
33:42Because if we make assumptions, there's a good chance they're going to be wrong.
33:52Has to be evidence-led, because if it's not, you won't get to where you need to in court.
33:57However, there are cases that sit in both the legal world and the moral world.
34:09And drawing the line between those is sometimes very difficult.
34:23Nice place, isn't it?
34:24With a crime scene investigation,
34:53it's pieces of a puzzle.
34:56You can learn a lot from someone by what's in their house,
35:00how people live their lives.
35:03Sometimes you'll get the build-up of lifestyle,
35:05the why has it happened.
35:09Well, that's a wooden testament of Ivan.
35:12Yeah, it feels easy.
35:13Because it might have been changed recently, mightn't it?
35:15But also, the scene can sometimes give you information that you're just not going to get from anywhere else.
35:23The medication's been seized, the chopping board, et cetera.
35:27We're looking for suicide notes.
35:29Handwritten, typed, or otherwise.
35:30Yes, we have.
35:40I'll sit more than you want.
35:47All sorted.
35:48As the search of the home continues...
35:53Back at base, DCI Leighton Harding has discovered something about Maureen's health.
36:01So, I spoke with Maureen's family.
36:06What they did say was that she had a diagnosis of lung cancer.
36:12We spoke about whether Maureen had ever said that she was thinking about taking her own life.
36:17She has never said that to them.
36:19But I think we just got to bear in mind that Ivan is the only person that says there was a suicide pact.
36:24The law is the law.
36:26If he has done an act which has caused Maureen's death,
36:29and we can prove that she died as a consequence of drugs,
36:32then the law will say that he's responsible for murder.
36:37And it is really critical, in terms of the attempted murder,
36:40to investigate whether or not Gavin did agree to end his own life
36:46and was capable of doing that himself, as opposed to it being done for him.
36:51Thank you. Let's get to it, then.
37:23We're going to be drawn into that argument about what is right or what is wrong.
37:27We have to gather the evidence in every situation, every circumstance,
37:32because the law is the law.
37:33Whilst his son is still recovering from the overdose in hospital,
37:50Ivan is deemed fit enough to be released.
37:55He's immediately arrested and brought in for questioning.
37:58Ivan, there's a chair there for you.
38:01It's there, so if you want it, feel free to sit down.
38:05Ivan, you've been informed about the two reasons that you've been arrested.
38:08If anything changes with that, we'll go through it with you, OK?
38:12He has been booked in. He's in his cell.
38:14I introduced myself and said that I was going to be one of the officers interviewing him.
38:17I said about him having a consultation with his solicitor.
38:19He said, I don't know what to do because I've only spoken to someone on the phone,
38:22but they told me not to say anything.
38:23I said, well, look, there's another solicitor here.
38:25You'll have a chance to have a consultation with him,
38:27and he will tell you what your options are.
38:29And he said, but I want to say what happened, but he's told me not to.
38:32And I was like, well, you'll have a further consultation with your solicitor,
38:35so just, you know, you'll speak to him first before you speak to him.
38:38It's not a solicitor's choice. It's always his choice, and he needs to know that.
38:41Yeah.
38:42We need to just spell it out to him.
38:45It's in his best interest to tell us.
38:47Yeah.
38:49But it's not going to affect what we do, is it?
38:52No.
38:52Okay.
39:17Let's do this.
39:18Do it.
39:20Yeah.
39:21Yeah.
39:22Please state your full name.
39:35Okay, and how old are you, Ivan?
39:3981 at the moment.
39:4081.
39:41Okay.
39:43Next birthday.
39:44Next birthday, four months.
39:47So, you do not have to say anything,
39:49but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned,
39:55something that you later rely on in court.
39:58Anything that you do say may be given in evidence.
40:03Now, that's the police caution, Ivan,
40:06and it is really important that you understand that.
40:09You don't have to answer my questions,
40:11but this is your opportunity to put forward your side of the story.
40:15Okay?
40:17Okay?
40:17Okay.
40:19At this point, I would like to state,
40:21my client will be exercising his right to silence.
40:24Okay.
40:25And answering all questions put to him with no comment.
40:28That's the advice being given to you, Ivan?
40:31Yeah.
40:31Okay.
40:34So, you've been arrested, Ivan,
40:38on suspicion of the murder of your wife, Maureen Potter,
40:42and the attempted murder of your son, Gavin.
40:45Are you responsible for these offences?
40:49No comment.
40:50If not, please tell us what happened at your house
40:56last Thursday and Friday.
40:59No comment.
41:00No comment.
41:03Okay.
41:04I'll just remind you, Ivan,
41:07that you've obviously got your solicitor here.
41:10He has advised you to answer no comment,
41:13but it is your decision, ultimately.
41:16Okay?
41:18So, I'm going to ask you the questions anyway.
41:21Okay, so...
41:23Did you make a suicide pact?
41:27No comment.
41:30He's going no comment.
41:33On advice for the solicitor.
41:35Um, um, he's, um, he's maintaining the no comment.
41:41He's not slipping from it so far.
41:44If you did make a suicide pact,
41:47whose idea was it?
41:49No comment.
41:53Do you want to commit suicide?
42:00No comment.
42:04You all right?
42:05Yeah, I'm all right.
42:06All right.
42:08You can do what you gotta do.
42:10No comment.
42:11No comment.
42:12No comment.
42:13Okay.
42:14So, going to talk about Maureen?
42:18Your wife?
42:21Me?
42:22I know it's upsetting, Ivan.
42:27But we do need to talk about it.
42:31Okay?
42:32And if you want to tell me what happened...
42:34No comment.
42:35No comment.
42:35No comment.
42:39Did she die after she'd taken any medication?
42:43No comment.
42:45Tell me about it.
42:46Tell me what has led up to this.
42:48No comment.
42:50No comments.
43:01You want some time, Matt?
43:03Yeah, yeah.
43:04No, that's fine.
43:07Yeah, he's just, he's just asked for a break.
43:10The, the, the questioning got difficult around, um, around Maureen,
43:15and, and he's asked for a break.
43:18I know, I heard.
43:30Um, you seem to be getting through to him, don't you?
43:34It's the right line of questioning at the right tone.
43:37They're all emotive issues.
43:38We can't avoid them because it upsets him.
43:42Okay, I'll catch you in a bit.
43:43Bye-bye.
43:43Bye-bye.
43:43Bye-bye.
43:44Up to now, the focus of the investigation has been whether Maureen was murdered or not.
44:04Yeah.
44:06But her exact cause of death hasn't been known.
44:09Hi, Philippa.
44:13Hello.
44:13You okay?
44:14Yes, good, thank you.
44:15You?
44:15Yeah, not too bad, thank you.
44:17We've received the pathologist's report,
44:21which has determined Maureen's cause of death.
44:25Bearing in mind, Ivan was arrested on suspicion of murdering Maureen.
44:30The medical evidence now rules out that possibility.
44:37There is no evidence to support the initial hypothesis that she'd been administered an overdose of paracetamol or erazepam.
44:44And the actual cause of death reads as natural causes attributed to her cancer and her COPD.
44:51That's the cause of death that's been presented to us.
44:55It's now clear Ivan didn't help Maureen to die.
45:11So the team can focus on the part he played in the overdose taken by his son, Gavin.
45:17In particular, whether Gavin had the capacity to consent to it.
45:22Hello, Steve, it's Dr Todd.
45:26About Gavin Potter.
45:27A clinical psychologist has been assessing him.
45:32I think Gavin is a man who doesn't have capacity around his own care.
45:39He can only make very basic choices about things he'd like to do,
45:43things he'd like to eat and drink and that sort of thing.
45:46He has, for the most part of his life, had very loving parents and that he has been very well cared for.
45:53So when we're coming to, could he make a decision about taking an overdose of medication to end his life?
46:02We're in an area that's way beyond what we would expect him to be able to do.
46:07The concept of death and illness are so abstract for him that he can't really understand what they mean.
46:16Right.
46:16That's really helpful, Dr Todd. Thank you for that.
46:19The law in this country does not allow you to assist someone in taking their own life.
46:36Every police officer has that ethos that we're here to help the people that can't help themselves,
46:45can't make the decisions for themselves and that can't protect themselves.
46:48That's when we step in.
46:49This is a continuation of an interview with Ivan Potter, OK?
47:00And I know this is going to be really upsetting for you,
47:03but they are questions that I do need to ask you.
47:08Please tell us what happened at your house last Friday.
47:15No, comment.
47:17Was Gavin involved?
47:19No, comment.
47:21Tell me about his capacity to understand what is going on around him.
47:26No, comment.
47:28Can he understand the concept of death?
47:34You realised what's wrong with my son, didn't you?
47:37You know?
47:39Well, you tell us.
47:40Oh, no.
47:42No, comment.
47:46Would Gavin understand what suicide meant?
47:49No comment.
47:53Or what it involved.
47:55No comment.
47:58Did you give Gavin paracetamol or any other medication?
48:06No comment.
48:06When you called the ambulance, Ivan, where was Gavin?
48:14No comment.
48:18Leave me alone.
48:19Pardon?
48:21Ivan, I need to ask you the questions.
48:24I know.
48:24Do you want another drink?
48:31No.
48:32No.
48:40Now, is there anything you want to tell me?
48:47No comment.
48:48No comment.
48:49Um, okay.
48:50Okay.
48:51Okay.
49:04Hello.
49:06It's very emotional, isn't it?
49:08I know.
49:12You may be feeling that, but it couldn't be further from that.
49:15You are not torturing him.
49:17It's difficult for him because it's emotive, but he's had his advice.
49:22He's going to stick by that.
49:23It doesn't matter what our views on that advice is, on our personal views.
49:27And he clearly wants to, doesn't he?
49:29He keeps trying.
49:39In an attempt to understand why Ivan might have felt it necessary to end his own life
49:45and the life of his son...
49:47Boss, you've got a couple of minutes.
49:49Yeah, come on in.
49:50Steve has been speaking to social services.
49:53So, he's been known to the adult services since about 2012,
49:57but with limited, um, regular contact and support.
50:01Yeah.
50:02On the 6th of December...
50:04Yeah.
50:05So, last Wednesday, it appears that Ivan called his hospice
50:08to say that he wasn't coping and he was struggling to care for Gavin and Maureen on his own
50:15and, effectively, he was doing everything by himself and he wasn't getting any help.
50:19There was previous contact with adult services in June around some respite care.
50:25Yeah.
50:25There were arrangements made, but on the day that Gavin was supposed to go to that,
50:30he was poorly and then it never materialised again after that and the case was closed.
50:37The records go back to 2012, but I don't think it's been regular contact or support provided
50:44in that, what effectively is a 12-year period.
50:48What you're saying is that there is a history of Ivan reaching out for support.
50:53He was at his wit's end, essentially.
50:56He's an intelligent man, he's quite, uh, very sprightly for an 81-year-old,
51:01but obviously there's this series of events that says that, um, well, they described it as breaking point.
51:07I think I stepped in and said, he's past, he's past that, it's already broken because we're here.
51:12Yeah.
51:12A review of body-worn footage from officers supervising Ivan in hospital
51:26has also revealed possible evidence about his motivation.
51:30Hey there, boss.
51:33Hi, Jess.
51:34It'd be really good to see some of those more significant clips where...
51:39No problem.
51:40...there's some detailed disclosures.
51:42The one that jumped out at me on that is that as he's going through, he states she wanted us all to be together,
51:51didn't want him to be left behind.
51:53Great.
51:55Let's listen to what he, what he says.
51:57Brian?
51:59I've worked in a living on his own for my own brother.
52:05He's my son.
52:07I had a place for him to go.
52:09One time, they didn't want him.
52:12Took him out for one day and that was too much.
52:15Was that like a respite care thing?
52:17Yeah.
52:17Yeah.
52:18Come home and all his neck was all sort of good.
52:21I don't know if they liked him.
52:24I wouldn't believe him behind some of these phones and things like that.
52:31I'm going to take him in, mate, but now I can't.
52:34Yeah.
52:35It's just been a bad life.
52:38But we've made the best of it.
52:41Okay.
52:42It doesn't seem to be that any agenda here that he's not telling the truth, is there?
52:47Yeah.
52:47It sounds to me as though he's sort of demonstrating the fact that if we're not here to look after him...
52:52Who's going to look after him?
52:54Which is demonstrating his motivation, isn't it?
52:56And his level of thinking about what he's going to do and why he's going to do it.
53:02I've done this to end suffering.
53:04So we've moved from Maureen's sad death to Ivan's actions towards taking his own in Gavin's life.
53:11Yeah.
53:11We know, don't we, that Gavin didn't have a choice.
53:15Yeah.
53:15And his view that you should be allowed to do that if that's what you want to do.
53:21And that's the complexity with this case because we know that you cannot do that.
53:24The evidence that Ivan gave his son the overdose means detectives are authorised to charge him with attempted murder.
53:38Final hurdle.
53:39Yeah.
53:40It's tough here, isn't it?
53:42Unfortunately, jobs like this don't happen very often.
53:44No, thankfully.
53:45Thank God.
53:46We're on the home straight, aren't we?
53:47Yeah.
53:48Cool.
53:48Cool.
53:54So you were charged with the following confesses that between 6th of December 2023 and the 9th of December 2023,
54:23a Troy wich, in the county of Worcester, he attempted to murder Gavin.
54:58Hi, boss.
55:04He's just been charged, yeah.
55:07He said he'll get what's coming to him, is what he said.
55:10That wasn't his reply to caution, but he just said,
55:12I'll get what's coming to me.
55:14But he took it well, the charge.
55:16I think he understands what's happening and, you know,
55:19what will happen from now, so...
55:22Yeah.
55:23All right, then. Thanks, boss. You too.
55:25Bye. Bye.
55:27Right, glasses back on. Sort myself out.
55:32Yeah, and to you.
55:37That really affected him and how shit he did I feel.
55:40Yeah.
55:42He's just saying, I'll do anything, I'll do anything.
55:45I'll tell you what you want to know.
55:47Fucking hell.
55:48I'll never do one as bad, you know.
55:51Ciao.
55:52Ciao.
55:52All right.
55:53All right.
55:53Good luck.
55:54All right.
55:55This way, folks.
55:56THE END
56:26Your son almost certainly lacks capacity to take any significant decisions about his care.
56:32In the immediate aftermath of your wife dying at home, you took the decision to kill yourself and your son.
56:41This was not your decision to make.
56:44You had no right to decide for him whether he was to live or not.
56:48As a result of the loss of your wife, against the background of your caring duties for her and your son,
56:57you were mentally unwell at the time you committed the offence.
57:01This is a crime not motivated by malice, but by misguided love.
57:06You have now spent approximately six months in prison.
57:20You will not have to serve what remains of the sentence unless you offend again within the next two years,
57:26which I am sure you will not.
57:28You have now spent a lot of time in prison.
57:58This is a crime not meant what we need to do.
58:07This is a crime not necessarily for you.
58:15Come on out guys!
58:16So he stabbed Mrs. and her mother, that guy a little bit.
58:19He's made reference to, I had to protect myself,
58:22otherwise I'd be the one to be dead.
58:24She was going to stab me so that she had a knife.
58:27Sometimes what you're looking for is a break.
58:46Another one, I had to protect myself.
59:00She was white.
59:01She's got a knife.
59:03She's got a knife.
59:05She's got a knife.
59:07I'm going to stab you, too.
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