- 12 minutes ago
A debate on the autonomy of constitutional institutions follows the prime minister's remarks on political interference and executive overreach.
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00:00Joining me on the show tonight, Divyani Rana, MLA of Nagrota in Jameen Kashmir.
00:06Amitabh Dubey, National Spokesperson of the Congress, is joining us.
00:09We'll be joined by Rashid Kidwai shortly. We also have Rajat Sethi.
00:13I'm going to begin with you, Amitabh Dubey.
00:16What the Prime Minister is essentially saying is that there is political hypocrisy in Congress's arguments.
00:23That you say that the institutions at present are compromised,
00:26but when you were in power, you actually compromised the institutions.
00:31In fact, went to the extent of not giving a state like Gujarat its due
00:37only because it was doing well and it was governed by the BJP.
00:42The Prime Minister himself was the Chief Minister of Gujarat.
00:46So firstly, let's be very clear. The Rajiv Gandhi Foundation is not the government.
00:50It is a private trust. And what they do is their business.
00:54This is not the UPA government juggling numbers, fixing numbers.
00:59And this is the same government, the Modi government, that ditched,
01:03and I'm now talking about official numbers,
01:05ditched the PLFS unemployment survey that showed 6.1% unemployment.
01:10It ditched the consumption survey that showed that consumption
01:13had gone down 3.7% in real terms.
01:16That suppressed WHO data showing that the COVID deaths were much higher.
01:20So we're talking about official data. This is not a private institution's rankings.
01:25It's very interesting to me that the Prime Minister attended a farmers event.
01:29And, you know, he should be addressing the issues that are plaguing the farmers.
01:34He did.
01:34You know, why their incomes have not doubled by 2020.
01:38He did.
01:38I mean, I was an audience.
01:40The event was organized by India Today Group.
01:42So he did.
01:43He made some claims about the growth rate of agriculture.
01:47But what about the fact that fertilizer is being sold at double the rate it should be?
01:52Why the MSP for PADI in UP is 2,441,
01:56but the farmers are only getting 1,500 in UP?
01:59Why there is the threat of cheap U.S. imports in agriculture?
02:02The point that was made here, and I want your response specifically on this, Amitabh Dubey.
02:08The Prime Minister, when he was referring to, was essentially to Bebek Deboroy,
02:15who was then the director of Rajiv Gandhi Institute for Contemporary Studies.
02:20He, in 2015, said that it was envisaged, the RGICS, which is Rajiv Gandhi Institute for Contemporary Studies,
02:32was envisaged as an independent think tank, but it was very, it was becoming increasingly clear
02:42that there would be interferences, and this is what happened.
02:46You know, it was about a paper that I and colleague undertook.
02:49It was published, then the study had ranked Gujarat No. 1 in 2005,
02:53when the municipal elections were happening in Gujarat, all hell broke loose.
02:58These are his words.
03:00I was told, henceforth, any publication by RGICS has to be politically vetted,
03:05and this was sent to me, signed by Mrs. Gandhi, who was the chairperson at that time.
03:10And then he resigned.
03:12So, let's be absolutely clear.
03:14Like I said, this is a private organization.
03:16Now, this is his word.
03:17This is the claims of Mr. Bibek Debroi.
03:20Mr. Bibek Debroi thereafter went and joined the Modi government and became a major advisor there.
03:24So, his political leanings became evident.
03:27Now, I don't want to criticize him because he's no longer with us,
03:30and, you know, he was a respected person in his own field.
03:33I have no issues with that.
03:34But this is his perspective.
03:35This is a private organization.
03:37And there's absolutely no comparison with the data fiddling that the Modi government as a government,
03:42as the elected government of this country has done in institution after institution after institution,
03:46whether it's data chori, vote chori, all kinds of chori, I'm happy to discuss them.
03:51But the fiddling that is done in institution level cannot be compared to a private organization.
03:56Fine.
03:56Fine enough, Amitabh Dubey.
03:58Divyani, the point here is that you are talking about data when the present all data which is being put
04:07out by the government
04:08is being challenged by the opposition and also from many within the government who held positions,
04:14like Mr. Garg questioned the GDP data.
04:18The very intriguing part, and I wanted to let Dubey finish his, you know, whole tirade about talking about data
04:24because he's very conveniently cherry-picked data that seems to suit his agenda.
04:28But when it comes to having to talk about the fact that in 2014,
04:32when the Honorable Prime Minister Srinindra Modi ji took over the reins of our great nation,
04:37he had to start from scratch.
04:38We had to start from building toilets in rural areas.
04:42What were you all doing for all those years?
04:44Even if we don't talk about data, that is where this country had to start.
04:48We went from talking about toilets to becoming one of the biggest manufacturers of semiconductors
04:53and being the third largest exporters of weapons to Europe.
04:56That is the data that matters in India today.
04:59We are right now leading the world on multiple different merits and multiple different data points.
05:07And those are things that they will not talk about.
05:09Very conveniently, Dubeyji talked about the election commission as well.
05:13Wherever they win, the data seems to be very conveniently okay as per their standard.
05:19But where they lose, they have such a hue and cry about what is going on
05:23that even when the Supreme Court has told them that you can go ahead and provide all the evidences
05:28that you have in your corner, they just go on and make stories out of nothing.
05:32I believe that there is this cherry-picking of data that they like to do.
05:36But it is very, very apparent when they talk about the constitution very, very specifically.
05:41And as someone who comes from Jammu Kashmir and represents a constituency in Jammu Kashmir,
05:45I can very clearly tell you that when the Article 370 conversation was being had, especially about women,
05:51a lot of the same people today that you are on your channel today, a lot of their colleagues would
05:56talk about saying,
05:56oh, but the matter is subjudice.
05:58They did nothing to really help any section of society except wanting to be in power.
06:04Okay, Dubeyji, I get your point.
06:06I am going to come to that specific point that the Prime Minister said,
06:09that there are people carrying Samhidhan in their pocket,
06:13and they think that they control nation's democracy in just a bit.
06:17But let me take opening comments also from Rajat Sethi.
06:21Rajat, go ahead.
06:24So I think institutions and supra-constitutional institutions was the invention of the Congress Party
06:33when they created the National Advisory Committee to basically circumvent and undermine
06:40a lot of other constitutional bodies which were there to help in decision-making.
06:47When such stalwarts like Dr. Vivek Debray comes out and says he does not say it for political reasons per
06:53se.
06:53He was a thorough academician even in 2004.
06:58The kind of pressures that used to be there on all kinds of institutions during the UPA years,
07:03all millennials very clearly remember that.
07:07So there cannot be two doubts about it.
07:09And instead of taking it in the right earnest and trying to course correct,
07:14you can't point fingers that he was doing it for political motives.
07:19And his reputation was seemingly across political lines
07:25because Dr. Vivek Debray has served in institutions which pan across.
07:30Even for that matter, what he has written has been in public domain.
07:35And he's been critical of several government policies both in the UPA as well as of Prime Minister Modi whenever
07:39he felt so.
07:40So he was a free-wheeling thinker.
07:42And whatever he said should have been taken by the Congress Party and tried to course-correct then.
07:49They did not do it then.
07:50They kept on undermining various institutions.
07:53And today, lo and behold, today they are trying to appeal to the Gen Z and the younger voters
07:58that they are the biggest custodians of the constitution.
08:02It cannot be something even more laughable than one of the Congress parties.
08:06As we say that, it's political hypocrisy here that is being highlighted by the BJP.
08:11So, Rashid Kidwai, come in now.
08:13You know, Samvidhan Khatre Mein Hai was the big campaign which was started by opposition,
08:19led by Rahul Gandhi in the run-up to 2024.
08:21And it did yield political dividends, particularly in the state of Maharashtra
08:26and also in the state of Uttar Pradesh, where Akhilesh Yadav won 37 seats.
08:31But when the Prime Minister says that the Congress Party, you know, of course,
08:37obviously referring to Rahul Gandhi that he carries Samvidhan in his pocket
08:41and then he thinks that the institutions are all supposed to be subservient to the Congress Party,
08:47there is also that reference that how when the Congress was in power,
08:52it actually compromised institutions.
08:56Yeah. So, Maria, we must understand this is a political posturing.
09:00If what the Prime Minister is saying is true, then, you know,
09:03there are a lot of things can turn around and say a lot of things about, you know,
09:08the BJP also of the past and present.
09:11So, therefore, I don't see that what Rahul Gandhi is doing something that is wrong.
09:16If there was lack of sort of, you know, freedom in Rajiv Gandhi Foundation
09:20or with any other institution, there's so many other institutions,
09:23there's so many public intellectuals who have taken, you know, known position
09:28and taken a very different kind of thing.
09:30So, they are also very political.
09:32I disagree with Rajat, what you say that about somebody being having a lot of, you know,
09:37intellectual heft, but people who intellectual heft, you know, Maria,
09:40and both Rajat, you and many of the panelists have seen,
09:43have also shifted their instance for political considerations.
09:48You know, when you talk about insiders of the government,
09:53when you say that somebody like Bibek Debroy started talking about it,
09:57who was the director, then speaks against the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation's functioning,
10:03institutions functioning in 2015, you have the instance of S.E. Garg,
10:07who was working within the government, now speak against the present government.
10:11So, there are instances on both the sides here, Rajat.
10:14So, let me go back to Amitabh Dubey.
10:17Amitabh, the sense certainly is that here is the Congress Party, Rahul Gandhi in particular,
10:24trying to build the larger narrative that here is one important institution,
10:28which is the Election Commission, which is a constitution body,
10:32which should be functioning independently, is not functioning independently.
10:36And that is why this entire chatter around vote chori.
10:40Are you sensing then that in the run-up to the first big election,
10:44the state election of the state of Uttar Pradesh,
10:47this is something that the Congress Party, the opposition, will be highlighting?
10:52Yeah, I mean, I will answer that.
10:55I just want to address something that Rajat said about supra-party control,
11:01referring to the NAC, which Mrs. Sonia Gandhi headed.
11:03That was an official body.
11:06Its proceedings are transparent.
11:08Everyone saw what came out of it in terms of legislation.
11:10But we have another supra-party organization called the RSS
11:13that currently views a lot of influence in the government,
11:17who have OSDs in ministers.
11:20Kindly let me speak, Devyani.
11:22Devyani, I'm going to come to you.
11:24Just a moment.
11:25Let him finish.
11:26I'm coming to you.
11:27And what was the nationality?
11:30I'm coming to you, Devyani.
11:31Let him finish.
11:32You have OSDs in every ministry who have an RSS background.
11:38You have vice chancellors across all universities
11:41who are selected on the basis of their ideological alignment with the RSS.
11:45This is a country that wants to compete with China
11:48and the United States as destroying its educational system
11:51by politicizing it and putting it in the hands of mediocre people
11:54with RSS leanings.
11:56This is a very serious problem.
11:57It's completely different from a legal body with transparent activities.
12:02Now, about the question you asked me about UP,
12:06definitely vote chori is an issue.
12:08Of course, it goes beyond UP.
12:09But I want to again point out what Devyani Rana had claimed,
12:13that this was some issue that only the Congress is bringing up.
12:15This is today a big issue because of revelations that came out in the media
12:20about the proceedings in the Election Commission.
12:23The Congress Party, of course, has been talking about it for a year, year and a half.
12:26And it's been vindicated by what's happened, by the media.
12:31Please do not speak for me.
12:33This is not a very productive situation.
12:36And I will interrupt you if you interrupt me.
12:39I'm afraid you can't speak over me, Devyani Ji.
12:42This is not the right thing to do.
12:44And I request you to stop interrupting me.
12:46And I think this is what they teach in the Congress as well.
12:49I request you to stop interrupting me.
12:51Devyani, I'm coming to you.
12:52Let him finish in 30 seconds.
12:54Let him finish in 30 seconds and then I'll come to you.
12:57Yes.
12:57So the question is, as Modi Ji himself said,
13:00why is Mr. Gandhi walking around with a red constitution in his pocket?
13:05I want to point out that Mr. Modi gave Ramnath Kovin Ji
13:08the same red constitution a few years ago as a gift.
13:11But be that as it may, the reason Rahul Gandhi is doing that
13:14is because the BJP itself said that if it gets 400 seats,
13:19it will change the constitution.
13:21Ms. Mirda said it.
13:23Many, many leaders of the BJP had said it.
13:26The reason he's walking around with the constitution
13:28is because the right to free expression is under attack
13:31by pellet guns, tear gas and violence against peaceful protesters.
13:35The reason he's walking around with the constitution in his pocket
13:38is because the electoral integrity of this country is under threat.
13:41That is why he's walking around with the constitution.
13:43Okay, you've made your point.
13:44Let Devyani speak now.
13:45Devyani, go ahead.
13:47I find, like I said, it's very fascinating
13:50that the India alliance, whenever it comes on board,
13:53has no basis of reality or facts.
13:56I mean, if you very easily open up,
13:58I just need to go back to the 1975 and 1977
14:01and everything that their governments have done
14:03are completely right in front of them.
14:06And that is not something that they never talk about.
14:09They very conveniently brush it under the rug
14:11and try to hide behind the institutions of this great nation.
14:16I mean, you have so much, if you have so much concern,
14:20where are your evidences?
14:21Why is it that all of it is only in rhetoric?
14:23Why are you not able to file in your rejoinders
14:27a file in the Supreme Court
14:29all the data that you supposedly claim to always have?
14:32I feel that this is all posturing.
14:35They know that they have lost ground.
14:37After their Ramlila ground attempt
14:40to have some semblance of a rally,
14:43they quickly figured out they've lost ground and how.
14:47They stand with the individuals who make seditious statements
14:50and even their own leaders cannot come on board
14:55and say whether they agree with the things
14:57that their own alliance is saying.
14:58So now, because they have lost ground,
15:01because they know that the people are no longer
15:03just listening to the words that they're saying,
15:05and they are more keen to know what is happening on the ground.
15:08The Bharatiya Janata Party is on track
15:10to make six crore lakhpati diris.
15:13Mind you, that amount of contribution
15:16into the GDP by women is unprecedented across the world.
15:21This is something that the BJP government has
15:23on the basis of data.
15:25I have just enough time for final comments
15:27from the two experts who are with us.
15:29Rashid Kidwai first to you,
15:31and then Rajat Sethi gets the last word.
15:32We've got only just a few words,
15:34but we do, and our words are reflected in our actions.
15:38So, Maria, I think the institutions
15:41are coming under strain.
15:43So there is no point saying that,
15:45you know, the institutions have not come.
15:47If the institutions had come under strain,
15:50you know, during earlier time, it was bad.
15:52But if it's happening now, it is worse
15:54because there is a political party
15:55that always opposed, you know, Indira Gandhi
15:59and several other, you know, Congress governments
16:01of weakening the institutions.
16:03I find it bizarre.
16:04Why is the election commission
16:06needs to be defended by the BJP?
16:08The election commission is independent of government.
16:14So there's a lot of institutions are there.
16:17If there's something,
16:17so there is an over-pulsanization
16:19of armed forces, Reserve Bank, UGC,
16:23a lot of institutions.
16:24I think there's a very strong case for that.
16:28Just because you can say that,
16:29Rajat, let's end this.
16:31Rajat, let Rajat speak.
16:33Yes, Rajat, 30 seconds.
16:36So, Mariya Ji, I mean, any party
16:38which is in opposition remembers constitution
16:41and rightfully so, they should seek shelter
16:46under the constitutional values.
16:47But you also have to go on to the track record
16:50that these very parties, when they are in power,
16:53how they crush the entire spirit of constitution
16:55has been a constant.
16:57Therefore, just flashing the constitution
17:00in one hand and on the other hand,
17:02waiting to somehow get into power corridors back
17:06and then try to install the same constitution
17:08has been written as part of our core history
17:11over and over again.
17:12I just heard the difference of NAC,
17:15what can be more laughable than that?
17:17It was not an unconstitutional body,
17:19but it was an extra constitutional body.
17:21There is a basic difference
17:22when you have an unelected member
17:24drafting the most important policies,
17:26which clearly means that it is trying to act
17:29as an authority which does not have the mandate
17:31of the people of this country.
17:32And still, they went ahead,
17:34these unelected activists
17:35who are trying to make policies for the country.
17:37The same is carrying on now.
17:39If you genuinely trust the institutions,
17:41you can't say that I will drag the Chief Justice
17:43onto the streets.
17:44This is what Kerala Congress intended to do
17:47and was an official handle.
17:48So, I don't know by what parameter
17:50is Congress Party judging their respect
17:52for these institutions.
17:53If you want to doubt every institution,
17:55what is that supra-institution
17:57which you are still relying on
17:58by flashing the constitutional book in your hand?
18:00When you don't trust the Supreme Court,
18:02you don't trust the Election Commission,
18:03you don't trust the President's office as well,
18:06you tried seeking appointment from the President,
18:08and the President said one thing
18:10and one thing alone,
18:11that please give me the required evidences
18:14and I will act on it.
18:16Till date, the Leader of Opposition
18:17hasn't had the time
18:18to again go and visit the Honorable President
18:20and hand over that dossier with evidences.
18:23I mean, what kind of a respect does he talk about?
18:26All right.
18:27Thank you so much for joining us.
18:29Divyani, Rana, Amitabh Dubey,
18:31Rashid Kidwai and Rajat Sethi.